I Shod the Sheriff – But I Did Not Lie on the Stand

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And I felt as if my defense attorney was talking in terms of freedom and in terms of career and what the impact would be. And I felt like to her, it was just a number, just a charge, just another day. There's only one way to put it. He was telling a lie and he did it on the stand and he did it to the police. It meant something because I wasn't prepared to go up and lie. You know, if she asked me something that wasn't great, I wasn't going to purge myself.

Me, I felt like the whole thing was turning into a circus because here we got somebody who's supposed to be a position of authority and he's fundamentally dishonest. Just a liar.

It's season three of Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore. Here, along with my fellow public defenders, presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Rejection. That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not-guilty as public defenders get on a daily basis.

In an unjust criminal system.

With the deck stacked against us.

Another not-guilty.

Okay. All right. Welcome back, everybody, for another week of Another Not Guilty.

Today's going to be a little bit different. We have a guest who's not a lawyer. He's not an attorney. He's not a police officer, a judge, a bailiff.

He is somebody who was arrested and went to trial and was found not guilty. So he's a defendant in the case. And his name is Bill. Bill, how are you doing over there?

Doing well. Doing well. How are you?

I'm good, guys. And Bill's all the way coming from Florida. Right, Bill?

Yes, sir.

Bill. So you're just a regular citizen?

Just a regular guy. Your average Joe.

A regular dude on another not-guilty.

Hey, we represent regular guys all the time. That's what we do here as public defenders.

Bill, how did you find out about the podcast?

So I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts.

A little bit morbid.

But a lot of them are missing persons cases or, you know, cases that are in court.

There's a few investigative cases that I listen to.

And when you go on at least the podcast program that I'm on, you can compare similar shows.

And I did that with one of the investigation shows.

And I saw your podcast listed and I gave it a try and immediately loved it.

So have a listener.

Yep.

So, Bill, then tell us a little bit about yourself.

You live in Florida. Do you want to say what part of Florida?

Northwestern Florida.

Northwestern?

Panhandle.

Okay.

And what do you do for 11?

I am an electronics engineer.

I've been an engineer since the mid-90s and work brought me to Florida and here I am.

All right.

So tell us about this case then.

You ended up being arrested and charged.

So can we get a little background as to what you were charged with?

Yeah, sure.

So the main charge was, or main charge, the biggest charge was hit and run.

I was also charged with three other smaller crimes, traffic crimes, failure to obey persons directing traffic, failure to obey flashing signals, and improper lane usage.

So those three went along with the hit and run case.

And what did you allegedly do then?

Well, so I was driving out during the day.

It was actually a day off of work, ironically.

And I was driving to an area that was blocked off and there were the orange signs and there were roadside workers doing some work.

I don't recall what it was.

I think they were taking down some tree limbs, pretty standard stuff.

And there were a few signs that said basically road closed, no passing.

But it was a little bit confusing because there was a lane that was open.

And so as I got to the sign, I stopped and I was kind of looking around a little bit confused on how to proceed if I had to turn around.

There were no detour signs.

There was nothing to kind of indicate what I should do.

And so at that point, I stopped at the orange sign and I looked over and there were five workers.

And these guys happened to be prison detail that were out doing the work.

And these guys were all standing to the side of the road and they were all just kind of waving me through saying, go ahead, go through.

And so I started to proceed to go through.

Once that happened, the boss of the detail, the chief, he was a law enforcement officer.

He stood in front of me.

He was off to the other side of the road and he, I don't want to say he jumped in the road, but he walked into the road and put his hand up and he threw his hands up and he said, what are you doing?

Where are you going?

And he was abnormally, it seemed angry at that point in time, screaming.

And I don't remember truthfully what expletives, but it wasn't just a simple, what are you doing?

I mean, he was, and so I stopped.

What did you allegedly do?

That was the criminal act then.

Allegedly, I then, I spoke with him.

I argued with him a little bit and I did a U-turn and he alleges that during doing, while doing the U-turn, I drove over his foot, his work boot, and I kept going and just proceeded to go in the opposite direction that I came in on.

And so that was the hit and run, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So actually, I mean, his initial allegation from what the, what I was told was that I hit his leg and drove over his foot and that was the hit and run.

And then the U-turn was like illegal or lane change.

That's right.

It'd be illegal U-turns and using the lanes wrong or whatever else I was doing at that point in time.

And from your point of view, what really happened was you drove up and this guy really did jump in front of your car, right?

Or stopped your car?

That's right.

And what did he say?

What in the F are you doing or don't you see that F-ing sign?

I mean, it was, like I said, it was over-the-top anger for the situation.

And I recognized the guy.

I knew who he was.

And so at that point, I was like, hey, dude, calm down.

What is the problem?

And he's like, the roads close.

And he went into, you know, just that a limb could have fallen on my car.

And just, it was crazy talk.

How did you recognize him?

He was my neighbor.

Like literally, like lives next door to you, neighbor, or down the street?

Literally directly across the street neighbor that I had had words with in the past.

It's not a very happy neighborhood.

It wasn't a happy marriage at that point in time.

No, we had, we didn't have a physical altercation, but we had words.

So then you just randomly see him at work or he's out working.

That's right.

So did he acknowledge recognizing you then?

Not at the moment.

At the moment, he didn't act like, except for his over-the-top anger, which kind of made me think that he made the association.

No, he didn't, he didn't say, hey, you're my neighbor.

There was nothing like that spoken.

That would have been nice.

I think we could have avoided the whole thing, but that didn't happen.

Did he tell you to turn around?

Like, hey, just get out of here.

All right.

He did.

He said, you can't go through a turnaround.

I don't know if it was like a, he dismissed me at that point in time per se, but he just said, you can't, you can't cut through, turn around.

And at that point in time, he walked away.

He turned his back and walked away and went back to where he came from.

And I did my U-turn and left.

So then you're driving away.

And I imagine you thinking everything's fine, right?

It's all good.

It is all good.

I was headed back home to start dinner.

Okay.

Which is, hey, everybody looks forward to that, right?

It was ribs.

So I was definitely looking forward to it.

How do you, wait, was it really ribs?

Do you remember that?

It really was ribs.

I remember that detail very well.

My dinner was ruined.

Does your wife cook the rib?

Are you buried, by the way?

I'm sorry.

Yes, yes, I am.

So for the sake of the podcast, she cooks and she cooks very well.

Okay.

I was cooking at this point in time.

We'll leave it at that.

All right.

And what's your household like?

Do you have children living there or?

Yeah, so I have two stepchildren that I live with and my wife.

Okay.

And I have a biological daughter that lives across the state in Florida.

And your friendly neighbor that's a sheriff, does he have kids?

He does.

As a matter of fact, that's funny.

That's why we had words.

I don't know if you want to get into that now or not.

Sure.

Let's do it.

Yeah.

So this guy, I saw him several times just completely over the top again, yelling at his kids.

And they were younger kids.

I don't know their exact age.

Like cussing at them and I am not the cussing police.

I just observed that it was over the top.

But one day he was on a riding lawnmower and he had his shirt off and sunning himself.

And he had a beer in his hand and a cooler on the back of the riding lawnmower.

Oh, man.

And his kids were, one of them ran into the street and he turned the lawnmower off and just went nuts on the kid.

And to the point that I thought maybe it was going to turn into physical abuse, but it didn't.

He just went and I was like, hey, dude, relax.

And he looked at me and he's like, mind your business, that type of thing.

I was like, OK, all good.

I just I wanted to deescalate at that point in time because I didn't want to see the kids get yelled at.

But that's ventures into not being my business.

But it is my business if they're getting physically abused.

And so I felt like it was going to go that way.

You know, that's weird.

So it's kind of like it is sort of his authority, how he handles his kids, as long as they're not abusing them.

And so and then now you're driving through a bunch of stop signs or which or road traffic, which could be his authority because he's doing detail.

So you just keep stepping on this man's.

Yeah.

I wasn't trying to emasculate the guy or anything.

It just it just it just is.

And I mean it when I say I'm the type that stays out of people's business.

But at that point in time, I didn't know how drunk he was.

I didn't know if these kids were, you know, afraid for.

I just didn't know.

And I just said, relax.

And then I just had to butt out because it didn't go to the point where it was physically violent.

And what was the lapse in time between this incident with the kid in the lawnmower and then the traffic incident?

That's a good question.

It was I don't remember exactly, but it was under a year.

It was it was relatively shortly after.

It wasn't years and years down the road.

And then I imagine you'd see him not daily, but maybe on a weekly basis because he lives across the street.

Did you guys say hi to each other or you kind of just ignored each other or look the other way?

We were two ships passing in the night.

We we didn't acknowledge each other affirmatively or negatively.

It just we would just drive past each other, ignore each other.

So you're driving home.

You're getting you're going to go home to go to ribs.

You you have dinner.

And what happens next?

So I'm upstairs in the office doing a little bit of paperwork and how the house was configured.

The the office wasn't directly above the door.

It was on the opposite corner of the house and the ribs were in the oven and I was doing my work.

And I thought I heard a knock at the door and then I just didn't hear anything.

And so then I just thought, well, maybe it's just I heard a noise.

And then again, a couple of seconds later, I heard another knock at the door and the doorbell ring.

And so I got up and walked down and opened the door.

And to my surprise was a police officer.

What happens next?

What happens is, is he asked me if I was driving, if I was driving in that location.

And I don't remember.

I don't believe he asked me directly, did I hit somebody and take off?

It was more of we we we had a report from someone that you ran over their foot and you left the scene and didn't stop to give any of your credentials.

And he had a he didn't have a body camera, but he had audio because they had a recording of me in court.

And I said to him that that's not true.

That's not true at all.

And I didn't I wouldn't say that I was angry, but I was confused and I was I guess I was just confused and upset because I was being accused of something I didn't do.

Did the officer arrest you right then and there there?

He did.

He arrested me right there.

He said one of those.

Well, you know, you'll just have to tell the judge that things because it was a disagreement.

And, you know, I don't I don't know how it always works out that the the cop doesn't have to tell the judge those things, but it's the person that they're falsely arresting.

But that's how it worked out.

And he took me to jail.

Did the cop at least allow you to make phone calls to your wife before you're arrested or anything like that or let your family know?

No, no.

He he barely wanted me to go in and turn the oven off because I was slow cooking him before they were going to go on the grill.

Reluctantly, he he came inside with me and he allowed me to turn off my oven.

So what's it like being arrested and going to jail?

How does that feel?

You know, it it felt I was in for a relatively short amount of time.

But you've I felt despair.

I felt helpless and I felt as if I didn't feel like I was going to be there forever, but I felt as if nobody was listening to me.

And, you know, I was just talking to myself about what happened.

So you bail out and what happens next?

You're given a court date, given a court date, bail out.

And I was allowed to drive and I went home and had a few sleepless nights stressing out about it.

And so what do you do to prepare for your court upcoming court date?

I got really fortunate.

I didn't I didn't know any attorneys at the time, but I had a friend who recommended an attorney to me.

And this lawyer happened to be a super, super litigator.

I mean, he was he was the type of lawyer that wasn't pleading everybody out.

He was the type that was down in the in the trenches, you know, defending people and doing it very well.

So what about the public defender?

You know, come on.

You know, I've heard some cases on on your show that that that the public defenders seem like out of this world attorneys.

I've never experienced anything with him, but my attorney was excellent.

I don't have any any regrets on who I hired, but I probably would have would have been fine with a public defender and probably would have won my case just as easily.

Hey, A&G fans, thanks for listening.

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And please leave a comment if you like this episode.

You know, at some point, though, you you you learn factually what is being alleged, right?

Yeah. So I learned through my the my attorney's paralegal what the details of the case were.

She gave me a call and she went through and we sat down and talked about what they're alleging and what I remembered.

And we had a more detailed interview with my attorney.

OK. And so what did you discover that was like the most outrageous claim in the police report?

That he was claiming that I ran over his foot and partially and bumped into his leg, but he wasn't injured at all.

There was no damage or tire marks or anything on his work boot that he could bring forward.

They had pictures of his work boot and they were just shiny and clean.

And so I was shocked to hear that no no cop at the scene asked, well, show me like you're clearly a two thousand, three thousand pound car is not going to drive over somebody's foot,

even if he has steel toes on and not at least leave a mark, leave a type, leave something.

If the level of contact with this man's shoe is so minimal that there isn't even a dirt mark or any type of trace on the shoe,

then how are you supposed to know you ran over his foot?

I mean, his shoe doesn't even know you ran over it.

He was ran over.

There were two people that knew that I didn't run over his foot and only one of them was making a bad allegation.

So, yeah.

So what's the game plan then?

Because you just mean with the paralegal, like what are you told or what's the next step in the process before trial?

Sure.

So the only the only items that I that I helped him gather is that I went and took pictures of of this scene and and how much room there was to turn around.

He was concerned that the argument could be made that there were very little room to turn around.

And and if I was as was alleged, if I was frustrated and angry from this altercation, that it was very it was likely that I ran over his foot because there wasn't a lot of room to initiate this U-turn.

So I told him, I said, listen, this is a two lane road and it's and it's wide and there's no construction going on here.

There was plenty of room.

So I went and took pictures of that scene against my I was a little concerned going back there while the work detail was there to take pictures, but they were further down the road.

And and so there was no interaction.

And that's really all I did for him.

He did most of the the legwork and put the exhibits together.

He didn't ask me for a lot of assistance outside of that and just my details of what happened.

And you're going to trial.

Did you want to settle your case or anything like that?

We did.

But the the prosecutor wouldn't take the hit and run off and the hit and run brought with it a mandatory 12 month driver's license suspension.

And that's just that's something that I would not have wanted to plead guilty to something I didn't do.

Generically, I wouldn't want to do that.

But if they're not going to dismiss the hit and run, that was the charge that I was worried about.

The other charges were just simple traffic violations.

What if they would have offered you like some type of misdemeanor charge, no jail time, but you were able to keep your license?

Would you have pledged to something like that?

Hindsight's 20-20.

As I sit here now, I think that that would be a logical thing to consider and strongly consider.

But at the point in time, I was actually pretty adamant about going to trial because I knew what I did and I knew what I didn't do.

And I had faith at that time in the legal system that once the facts came out, that I'd be found not guilty.

And are you seeing your neighbor during this time?

Like, yeah, so so my it's odd, but my attorney told me and no uncertain terms, no interactions with the guy, no words with the guy.

Don't observe what he's doing.

We don't need we don't need any of that information.

We don't need his domestic habits.

We just just avoid him because only bad can come of that.

And so I did what he asked me to do.

All right.

So now it's now it's time for trial then, right?

Game time.

Yep.

How are you feeling?

Nervous.

Every worst scenario you can imagine from losing your job to what happens if I'm getting a ride and they show up late and I'm now chronically late to work when I've never been late to work.

Every imaginable scenario came up because that's how my mind was working at the time, getting to the worst of what the outcome would be.

And so it was it was incredibly stressful.

It was one of the more stressful times of my life.

And I was happy to get to trial because I wanted to get it over with.

But I was really nervous.

All right.

So tell us about the jury trial.

Like, did you meet the prosecutor at all or?

I did.

I did.

She so she seemed I had no qualms with her.

She seemed like a nice person, but I already had a preconceived notion about her her personality or her her style in that she would not budge off of the hit and run.

And so I don't know who was, you know, if that was coming from above her.

I don't know anything about where that was coming from.

I just thought that it was unreasonable that she wouldn't even consider that.

What about the judge?

What the judge seemed like?

Very, very calm.

Mello didn't didn't give a lot of words in either direction.

Didn't, you know, he just seemed like he was going to be someone who was fair and reasonable.

OK, did you feel any pressure to settle the case or anything like that?

No, I mean, my attorney knew the deal.

He knew exactly where I was coming from.

And like I said, he he was a guy that he's not a he wasn't a guy that that pushed me to plea and said, you know, this is going to happen.

He was very frank with me. And he said, you never know what jury trials, how this is going to work out.

You you just I can't tell you how this is going to work out.

But I think you have a good case.

So he was honest with me.

But the judge seemed straightforward.

My attorney seemed ready to go.

And and I I was more confident as the trial started.

All right. And is there anything else you want to share before we start talking about the starting of the jury trial?

Yeah, I think I I was watching how how the jury was selected and it seemed that the prosecutor didn't wasn't nearly as interested in in striking in or out certain people as my my attorney was.

My attorney was really, really impressive with the questions that he would ask.

And he would come back and he told me, you know, his who he wanted on the jury, who he didn't want on the jury.

And it seemed to me that he got he they struck one or two that he said that he really wanted.

But it seemed to me that he got nearly the entire jury that he wanted.

And let me ask you, what's what's it like to sit here?

I mean, this is your life, that this whole process is your life, but you're sort of just sitting there and your life is in somebody else's hands.

In fact, his strategy is his strategy.

And you have to sit there and just go with what he is going to do.

Like, how does that feel?

That's a that's a great question.

But during the jury selection, my only thought as a as a non-lawyer was, I hope he's right.

I hope he he's right.

And because you're relying on the jury to be honest about these questions.

Right. I mean, they do lie to answer the questions.

It happens a lot.

And so I just said that I trust him and I hope he's right.

All right. Well, let's get into it then.

So opening statements.

I remember being red faced and angry listening to her opening statement because it portrayed and and brought forth a picture of somebody that wasn't in the courtroom.

I mean, you know, she brought up a previous traffic violation.

She she brought up this.

This guy was angry.

He was upset.

He took off.

He could have broken this guy's leg.

All of these things that that to me were were not true.

And they were designed to bolster his case that you've got this angry guy that didn't want to be told to turn around and was in a rush.

And he he in no uncertain terms was told to turn around and pissed off as I was and flip the U-turn and drove over his foot and said, good.

I'm glad he got his foot run over and went home.

That's how I felt that she was portraying.

And then how does she bring up your previous traffic violation from like what, like a speeding ticket?

She said it in a I don't want to say it kind of passive aggressive.

She said something like we have a guy without the cleanest driving record or, you know, you know, and I'm like, OK.

He ran a stop sign.

He ran a stop sign.

Yeah, you got me.

You got me.

I'm a chronic, crazy driver.

So so you hear this prosecutor and she smears your name.

She doesn't even know you reading stuff into the case that aren't really in the police report.

So now it's time for your lawyer.

Right.

To go up there for an opening statement.

Right.

How do you feel?

Like, go get him.

Get him.

Big time.

Yeah, I wanted blood.

He wanted no part of the blood.

He just fortunately for me, he was the calming factor and he was smooth.

All right.

He he laid out he laid out exactly the, you know, the details as we had discussed it.

He said that that this, you know, I'm going to show that that there's just no way that my client would would run over somebody's foot and and not stop.

There's nothing in his background or character that would say he did that.

You'll hear him on audio on the police recording.

He's not angry.

He's not saying the cops a liar.

He's just dismayed and confused.

And you're going to find that when this case is done and you hear all the witnesses that that he that he's not guilty.

And is anybody at this moment is bringing up your past history with the cop or that you guys are neighbors, that he's a police sheriff, like the prior incident, like anything like that?

Nothing, though, that detail and there was another detail that that I'm sure we'll get to that.

And I was again, as a non lawyer, I was adamant to my lawyer that he not only acknowledge these things, but they were part of my case.

And, you know, he he did.

He did listen to me.

He just he if I imagined it going differently with some of the cross examinations.

But he did listen to me and he did say that these two I think these these guys are not strangers to one another.

We have no explanation why this this wasn't worked out in a different way.

And I wanted it to go further.

I wanted them to say the guy was a liar.

And, you know, but, you know, he he had to he had to just he was there for me not not to prosecute somebody else.

All right.

So then it's time for the first piece of evidence then.

Right.

The trial starts by bringing the chain gang of the five felons into marching them up one by one and to bring them up and and what they saw.

And I just alluded to there there's something that will come up.

I wanted we knew what their arrest records were.

We knew what they were incarcerated for.

I wanted my my lawyer to as they were up on the stand.

I wanted him to say, like, well, were you convicted for fraud for, you know, these cases weren't like traffic cases.

These guys were in prison for things of questioning their morality, their their honesty and integrity.

And they've been convicted.

And he wasn't interested, really, in going into their backgrounds and impeaching him, them like that.

He wasn't interested at all in going that direction.

What he what he wanted to get into was the details of where they were, what they saw, what angle.

And to a person, each one said that they did not have the right view to see that I ran over the foot, which was the I think the critical factor in the in the crosses is that they did witness the altercation.

They did witness words being exchanged.

They couldn't say what the words were and they couldn't say that they could see because it was on the opposite side of the road.

So they couldn't see his foot. They just they were they were going by what he had told them after the fact.

So so essentially the cop told them that his foot was run over and that's what they were there to tell.

Oh, OK. Yeah. There you go. There's no need to no need to dirty them up and to go there because they didn't say anything bad.

So at this point in time, I felt like I had already been dragged through the mud from the from the opening statement.

And, you know, I mean, nobody's heard any of my testimony yet.

So all I all they had was these guys all saying, characterizing this this situation as two people arguing and fighting.

And I at least wanted it to be known that there there there was a little bit of motive, in my opinion, for these guys to be dishonest and to to speak up for the cop.

I mean, he's in he's in charge of their how their freedom during the day and what they do and how how hard he makes them work.

And so I thought that there was motivation for each one of these guys to to take sides with him.

I mean, the jurors knew they were in prison, right?

Yeah, they were in their their prison guard.

And the jurors know that this guy is a sheriff in charge of these prison inmates, right?

Yeah. As I said, I'm an engineer. That's why you lawyers are.

Are make the big bucks because I wanted a different tack, but he knew what he was doing.

He also told me that it could it would probably work against me if he was aggressively going after each one of them and dirtying them up, because the piece that he wanted was that none of them could see the tire hit his foot or his leg.

For the defense, like the prosecutors, like the prosecutors, they can get dirty, they can sling mud.

They're the prosecutors. They're they represent morality and good.

You know, the defense. We have to like we have to always take the high road and be above it.

And we're presenting the truth and just be reasonable with the jurors.

That's like my approach, at least.

Yeah. And that just gets into I mean, this is more of a big picture thing, but my viewpoint was changed after that of how how the assumption of innocence and all of those things work.

Because to me, I was there and and the only integrity and honesty was coming from our side.

Now, of course, I'm a biased guy. I'm telling you my perspective.

But there was not a level. There was no representing the truth or the facts from the prosecution.

It was dirty. It was dirty. And I think by design and that put me at a in my opinion, a disadvantage even going into it.

I didn't feel like I had the presumption of innocence.

What's up, A&Gers? Hope you're enjoying this unique episode with an actual defendant.

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Special shout out to David Munoz, Sirat Anahi, Michelle Moody's Pa, Kelsey McDonald, Patrick O'Connor, Marina Handwerk for their contributions already.

Thanks, guys.

All right. So then after the chain gang testifies, what comes next?

Then the big witness, the sheriff himself came up on the stand and he didn't say anything dramatically different than what the police report said.

To me, his only embellishment was the hit and run. Everything else seemed reasonable.

He didn't sit there and say that I was violent or angry or none of the things that the prosecutor was kind of alluding to that I was out of control.

He just said that, you know, if anything that he embellished, again, my opinion, was how calm and detailed he was and just, you know, just turn and go do a U-turn.

Because there was none of that. He was visibly shaken from the beginning of it.

And he didn't give that impression either, obviously.

So he was pretty straightforward. But all in all, I think he told his version of the truth, the same version that he reported that day.

Did he bring up that he knew you? That you guys were neighbors, lived across the street from each other?

He did not, nor did the prosecutor, which is why I said that I don't know if they even had that conversation.

My attorney asked him if he's ever met me before.

So let's see. What does your attorney do? How does he cross-examine and rip up this deputy sheriff?

Yeah, much like the chain gang, I wanted blood and he wanted facts.

And again, this is why he's doing the talking and I'm doing the watching.

He didn't, you know, he refused. He didn't tell me I refused, but he would not bring up the incident with the beer drinking and the driving around on the golf cart and the big straw hat and the, you can insert what other Southern joke you want to insert here.

None of that really. He just wanted to bring up that we had met before, that we were neighbors, that we have not always had positive interactions.

And I think that was, I think the most aggressive thing he may have said to him was, well, where did he run over on your boot?

And why was there no, there was no sign of anybody hitting your boot?

And I think the other thing that he said to him was, do you, you know, does your previous altercation, your previous meeting with the defendant, is that making you biased?

Is that leading you to, to create a story that didn't happen so you could pay him back?

It was, it was worded more smoothly and it wasn't objected to, but he, he calmly said, no, it was, he was just basing it on what happened that day.

And, and he told me to turn around and I didn't want to have any part of it and decided to run him over in the process, run his foot over.

There was photographs of the boots, right?

Who presented that evidence?

The prosecutor.

The prosecutor puts up on the screen for the Jersey Sea, the boots that were ran over, right?

Mm-hmm.

But your lawyer is the one who brought up the fact that there was no marks on the boots.

That's right.

And, and how did they withstand the weight of this, this car?

And do you know how much, you know, his steel toes and do you know how much weight they're tested for?

And they didn't pinch your toes, you know, just got into more details about the boots.

Was there any marks on the, you know, was the steel toe indented?

Did you have to replace the boots and get a new set of boots for work?

He was creating for, for the jurors, this process or this thought that how on earth does a, does a vehicle run over somebody's toe?

And there's no mark on the boot at all, you know, and nobody's really, like I said, there's no expert there to say how much weight they can hold.

But I think any reasonable person would say that they would expect to see something on the boot.

So I think that was his goal.

Any other, any other exhibits presented at this time?

That was the only exhibit they did.

They did have a picture of, you know, stepping back.

They had a picture of this scene, but ironically, and I don't know if it was intentional, it was from an angle.

And in my eyes, it was done like this because if you would have taken it straight on,

you would have seen that there's plenty of room to, to do a U-turn.

Any sort of like behind the scenes arguing or going on between you or between your lawyer and the judge or the prosecutor?

Not with the, not with the judge.

No, they, they took a break, gave the jury a little break.

And he did discuss with the prosecutor.

I was right there.

He said, you know, I, I, I don't, again, I don't want to mischaracterize,

but something like, I, are you sure you don't want to settle or, you know, we could settle this right now.

I'm willing to plead to the other three charts, something along the lines of, look, you know, it's not looking great for you.

Let's just settle this and move on.

You know, no harm, no foul.

Is there anything that we can do to, to, you know, that would, would be reasonable to take the hit and run off?

It was a conversation, but it was, and this is another thing.

It's so casual.

Like they were, they were friends at the, at the, at the country club over lunch, talking about it.

Like there was no, he didn't hate her at that moment.

Like I did, you know, there, I felt like they could just be having a, like I said, a casual conversation.

And I find that interesting that, that you guys, attorneys can with your, with your opponent or what, that you can have a conversation and just be that calm and that reasonable when you're in the trenches at that moment.

This is, this is every day for us.

Every day we are negotiating people's lives and your attorney, you know, why would your attorney blow up at this prosecutor?

Because who knows next week he could be back in that courtroom on another case and he has to work with that same prosecutor and it's better to get along because that's how you get things from people.

That's a great point.

Big picture and selfishly, just being honest, I didn't give a shit about anybody else's case and that he had to be back next week.

Or, you know, I was at that point in time in my own mind, fighting for my own, I don't want to be dramatic and say freedom, but my freedom to drive.

Yeah.

That's a big freedom.

And I felt as if my, my defense attorney was talking in terms of freedom and in terms of career and, and what the impact would be.

And I felt like to her, it was just a, just a number, just a charge, just another day.

No, in my situation, I'm like, well, the fact is, is that, that he's, he's lying.

There's no way.

I tried to find a way in my heart to say that he felt like he got run over, but he didn't.

I mean, there's only one way to put it.

He was telling a lie and he did it on the stand and he did it to the police.

And to me, that, that meant something.

It meant something because I wasn't prepared to go up and lie.

You know, if, if she asked me something that, that wasn't great, I wasn't going to purge myself.

And so to me, I felt like the whole thing was turning into a circus because here we got somebody who's supposed to be a position of authority and he's fundamentally dishonest, just a liar.

And so I, I get, I get the process, but at that moment, I still felt like I was fighting for my own freedom.

Or how about this?

The fact that, you know, this guy's lying, he's saying this happened, but there's no corroborating evidence.

Like his shoes are spotless.

You would think that a prosecutor at this moment would look at the evidence and say, you know what?

This didn't happen because of that.

And they would do the right thing and dismiss the case.

Right?

Yes, absolutely.

Thank you for clearing that.

It's, it's the, on the face of it, there's absolutely reasonable doubt built into the fact that there's not a piece of evidence.

It's his word against mine.

And, and so to me, it was very unreasonable to not be willing to take that hit and runoff because they had no evidence to prove it.

You know, like, all right.

So if you lose, you, if you lose that trial, you, uh, you know, the effect, it affects your life and impacts your life.

And that's maybe why you're willing to take the traffic violation because you don't want to risk losing your life or losing your license.

What do you think about the other end?

Look, what risk does the prosecution have if they lose?

Do you know?

I, I, I felt like there were no risks because here's the thing.

Why would she try the case if there was a risk?

Like if her, her credibility wasn't being questioned.

Yeah.

His, in fact, she wasn't even questioning his.

So obviously I'm not privy to the conversation she's having with her bosses or what the statistics are, how many convictions she has to have.

But I'm not, again, I'm not a lawyer, but looking at this case, if you're trying to bolster your conviction rate, this wouldn't be one that I try and pat the stats with.

Yeah.

To me, there's plenty of open and shut cases, but this wasn't, it wasn't close.

Yeah.

And so I don't know what kind of pressure she's under.

But Bill, I'll answer the question for you.

There is no risk.

Okay.

There's no risk.

It's, I was like, I like to point that out sometimes because it's like, people think there's this balance of justice going on where each side, and it's, they, the prosecutor can totally be unreasonable.

They don't, they don't have to be reasonable.

They have nothing to lose.

They could have charged you with murder on these facts.

And then let's just go to trial and lose that because whatever, they can do whatever they want, charge whatever they want, be as unreasonable as they want, ignore the evidence, ignore the lack of evidence, and just go to trial.

And they have nothing to lose.

You, on the other hand, what, like, have to, like, budge on some level.

This officer is lying, but you're like, all right, I hit a run.

I may lose my license.

So I will be willing to plead to a traffic violation, infraction, even though I didn't commit it, even though this officer is lying, even though this officer told me to turn my car around, I'm still willing to admit that, even though I didn't do it, I'm still willing to have that take a hit on my insurance, have rates go up, whatever it is, just because I can't risk this.

So I will be willing to admit to something I didn't do.

But the other side never has to do any of that.

I mean, you're hired, first of all, because what you said was exactly right.

All of those things were going through my mind, like, when is there a balance and when does this become fair?

When do I have the advantage as the accused in this courtroom?

Because it hasn't happened yet.

All right.

So now it's time for your case, right?

Yep.

I was my only witness.

This was a discussion we had, and there was no alternative to me whether I was going to testify or not.

You know, obviously, there were things that he cautioned me against.

Elaborating too much, not answering her directly.

And most important, since he felt like, you know, the facts were on our side, he wanted me to control my emotions.

Because the very last thing he wanted to do was show somebody that's a hothead that they, you know, I wasn't accused of being angry, but that was their portrayal of me.

And he wanted me to remain as calm as I could and to answer her questions with a yes, ma'am or no, ma'am, and be done and not take any of it to heart.

And so that was a little bit hard for me because I know I was innocent, but that's what he asked me to do.

And so you got up there on the stand, you testified.

What does that feel like when you're testifying?

I'm nervous as hell.

My heartbeat is just pounding.

I can hear my heartbeat.

I'm sure the jurors can hear my heart beating.

My throat's dry.

My head is spinning.

I mean, this is, this is, I felt like I would be calm and I would handle it.

But yeah, I had to stop and take a very deep breath and remain confident in if I just told the truth that that was my best case.

And so I did, I think eventually I calmed down.

On direct examination, you just tell your story with your lawyer, right?

That's right.

Anything happen other than just your side of the story?

No, I think, I think again, what's, what's really interesting as a non-lawyer is to, to go along on that journey with him, so to speak.

And he's, he's taking it to the direction he wants it to go.

And he's, he's allowing me to speak, but he's not allowing me to go into that.

This dude's an effing liar.

And, you know, he's just, he's bringing it along sequentially, calmly.

And it, you know, it was, it was masterful.

It was really, I'm sure to you, it's everyday stuff and it's uninteresting.

But to me, it was masterful the way that he, that he created a picture.

What about the, did you bring up the whole incident with the neighbor and his child across the street and how you butted in and probably spoke somewhere where you, your business didn't belong or anything like that?

Yeah, we did.

It got to that.

It didn't get to, like I said, he didn't want to talk about the, the, the alcohol and the cooler.

And, you know, he didn't want to, he felt that that was a bridge too far, but he did have no problem, you know, asking me what was the interaction like?

And, and what happened and did I feel like, um, that he was excessively yelling at the kids and, um, finally it was, you know, I, I had to caution myself to not be like over the top and to not really try and put it to him.

Um, because I really felt like at the moment we were talking about this, that, that things were going very well.

And so I was trying to just let the jurors know that, Hey, this isn't the dude that he says he's, he is, um, without, without, um, attacking his character too much in spite of my, my, um, I got, I, I overcame that desire to do that because of how he, he coached me to do that.

That's that, you know, that is a good move on your lawyer's part.

I feel like the fact that he said not, you didn't have to bring up the beer and the cooler and that part, or I don't know.

I, you know, that's interesting.

Cause it's, I don't know if I would have, I don't know.

Anyways, that's a cool, that's a good tactic.

What was the prosecutor's cross-examination of you?

Like the, the thing that I remember most about her cross-examination was how weak it was, how, I mean, she, she did try and, um, get under my skin, but it wasn't about the U-turn or the hitting.

It was about my, my emotions.

You were pissed off, weren't you?

You were, and so the, the first really interesting thing were, um, at the beginning, I told you that there were knocks at the door.

And at first I didn't know that there was a knock at the door.

And then, um, she was trying to portray this as that.

I was trying not to answer the door and that I was conscious of my crime that I committed.

And I was trying to hide from the cops or trying to avoid interaction with the cops, which is stupid.

I mean, I went down after the second or third set of knocks maybe.

And so someone who's trying to avoid the cops, um, they don't open their door.

I mean, it's.

Does that mean you use this opportunity as your opportunity to talk about the ribs you were cooking?

I did.

I did.

I, I, I said, well, I was, I was cooking and I was looking forward to eating the ribs because I, I, at that moment, she's starting to tell people that I'm angry and I'm not, I didn't even know who it was.

And so I wanted them to know what my, my frame of mind was.

I was, I was getting ready to spice some ribs up and throw them on the grill.

And, and that's how my day was going.

And you're cooking those ribs, not just for you, but for your family too, right?

For the family.

In all fairness, did the ribs come up with your lawyer?

No.

Well, you think they should have?

No, he didn't bring up the ribs.

Well, no, because it's funny how she, in fact, humanized you even more with the jurors.

Like that.

You're just a dude cooking dinner for your family and you like ribs.

I mean, does that make you more relatable or less relatable?

You know, some of her questions were pointed.

Some of them were, were offensive, but I put my, my best smile on and yes, ma'am and no, ma'am.

No other evidence on your part, right?

No, just, oh, just what we said earlier, the pictures of the scene, like more detailed pictures.

Um, from different angles, um, different signage, a measurement of where they were standing on the tree line, the, the chain gang, um, where they were standing from the road and how far are they, you know, just a few detailed, um, exhibits like that from my attorney.

All right.

So now it's time for closing arguments then, right?

So her, her close was, for me, it was, it was less offensive than her open.

Um, and it was quicker.

Um, I don't know why I don't, in my own mind, I'd like to think that she knew she was beat and she just kind of, um, just wanted to get rid of it and end it.

And it left a lot to be designed.

All right.

And then what was your attorney's closing like then?

My, my attorney's closing was actually, I think the best from, from my perspective, the best moment besides jury selection.

He, he, I think he felt a little bit more, um, free, freed up to say, to, to give my perspective more instead of just kind of a general, he wasn't as much of a nice guy as he was.

I mean, he, he didn't crush the accuser.

He didn't crush, you know, this prosecution, but he went through the witnesses and said that they didn't see anything.

He doesn't know why they were even called.

Um, they could have just left them out of it and just, you know, and so he was just kind of going at the case like that.

Like, why were they even called?

They didn't even see what he's accused of.

How are you sitting?

Are you trying to sit a certain way?

Are you relaxed in your chair?

Just chilling, kicking back?

Heck no.

I mean, I don't know that he ever had to once ask me about, um, my demeanor or my, um, posture because I was, I was attentive and I sat, um, and I listened, interested to each person.

I was, I was, I wanted to, to hear everything that way in case he asked me, I could give him

any piece of information that he needed.

And I, I didn't slouch.

I didn't roll my eyes.

I tried to be, to think that they were watching me the whole time and looking for any evidence

at all that I was, um, emotionally, overly emotional or, or angry.

And I didn't want to give him anything, even though on the inside I was boiling.

And all right, cool.

So then the jurors go out.

How long were their jurors out for?

They started, um, deliberating at about four o'clock or very late in the afternoon.

And almost immediately, um, the judge, it was time to go home for the day.

Yeah.

So I have another night to go home and to toss and turn and sweat and think about everything

that's going to go wrong.

In all honesty, I felt a little bit better than going into it.

I felt a big relief because regardless of what happened, it's in the jury's hands now.

And there's nothing that, that can be done and there's nothing that can be said.

And so there was some, some bit of relief there.

Um, and that was it that evening.

Um, and the next day we went into court and sat down and, um, feels like it was, the judge

didn't come in, um, that the, the jury were, um, we met, the judge came in for briefly and

they were deliberating.

The judge left and maybe, maybe 45 minutes to an hour, they were out discussing it.

We get word that there's a verdict.

Um, and so I take my seat next to my attorney and the prosecutor comes in and all of her

glory.

And what does that feel like when you, when you hear there's a verdict about your life?

You know, it's, it's, it's kind of, um, a mixed bag.

I was, again, I'm, I'm happy to be getting it over with and I felt, um, confident, but I'm

nervous as, um, I'm probably as nervous as I can remember ever being.

Because this was a moment, you know, and, and maybe to, to a casual person, it, it, that

seems dramatic, but to me, the inability to drive to work, my kids seeing that I can't

drive and why, why can't, why can't you drive into work and, and having this hung over my

head and my boss maybe seeing me take a cab into work and saying, well, why are you taking

a cab?

And all of these things are flashing through my mind as, as repercussions of this arrest.

And so to me, it wasn't just about the license suspension.

It was about the, the entire process.

So the jurors come out.

At that moment, I was determined to, and, and maybe because I've heard this in other court

cases and, and when people were watching a jury, I was determined to watch their faces and to

see if they would give me eye contact to see if they look like, um, that they were, I don't

know how to describe it.

They were like, oh shit, this guy's life's ruined, or, um, this guy's going to walk out

of here, uh, you know, dancing because he's so happy.

I was just trying to read anything out of their facial expressions.

And what I saw to a person was they all made eye contact.

And one of the girls like kind of grinned or smiled.

Like it was almost a nod and, and at that moment I knew either, either she's family of the

prosecutor or I won the case because the nod was something affirmative.

And it felt like it was, um, it was telling me something.

I'm not trying to be too, read too much into it, but she, she kind of told me at that point

in time, you're good.

So, uh, so hit, hit and run, not guilty, right?

Hit and run, not guilty.

Boom.

What about all the little, the little traffic violations, illegal U-turn or whatever, not

guilty.

Like that's crazy.

So I was found guilty of failure to obey a flashing signal.

Um, don't, don't, so here, what I had to do to justify this in my own mind, what I had

to tell myself is that there were four charges.

They had to convict on one in their own mind.

Like to them, there's a, there's a question as to how this went down to them.

I think that they felt like there was an argument and alter, and so this is all, this is all

something that I've thought about after the fact, because that particular verdict seems

so arbitrary to me.

It seems like that would be an all or nothing, because if, if you, if you don't think that

you, there was a hit and run to me and you're doing a U-turn, you're, you're following all

of those, um, all of those other laws.

And so, but listen, at that point in time, you could have, they could have said guilty

on all the other three and I'd have paid my fine and still been, I would have been dismayed

with the legal system and frustrated, but there was one shards that mattered to me in that

point in time.

And when I heard not guilty, I was, I was in, I was thrilled.

That's great.

And then, um, so what, you just went home.

That's it, right?

Life moves on.

You know, I don't know what I, what I thought right away.

I know that I felt a huge sense of relief.

I had a, um, uh, we had lunch with my attorney afterwards and we had a good discussion and,

and I was excessively thankful to him, I'm sure.

And, um, you know, he was just, he was thankful to me for being so attentive and also for not

losing my cool on the, on the stand.

Um, he's like a lot of people that would have been really hard to do the way that, and so

it was a more humanized discussion because we didn't have to worry about the mechanics

of the case anymore.

And, um, and after lunch, um, we went our separate ways.

There were, you know, there were questions as to whether I would pay, you know, pay for

his boots, a new set of boots.

Cause he bought a new set of boots and he's like, no, you know, I mean, he didn't, he

didn't hit him.

What are we talking about here?

So normally the last question of the day is always why you became a public defender or

why you became a criminal defense attorney.

Um, so I guess to close this podcast episode out, how has this experience changed your, uh,

perception of the criminal justice system?

I think I alluded to it earlier.

I no longer have the feeling whether this is fair or not.

I no longer have the feeling that the accused walks into the courtroom with the presumption

of innocence that the prosecutor and the law enforcement or who, you know, the, the prosecution

is operating in good faith.

Um, and I, I don't believe that the justice system is set up to be fair.

I think the cards are really stacked against, um, the defendant and especially if they have

a long criminal background or a lot of priors.

I think that it just starts adding up how much the system is stacked against you.

I, I also, I don't have any illusion that, that, um, there's anybody fighting fair inside of

the courtroom, um, or that I should assume integrity from a law enforcement officer or

prosecutor.

And I think I told you, I don't, I'm not lumping them all into one category, but I also am not

willing to give them, um, a blanket pass on that.

They're all operating, you know, with, with, with honesty and integrity.

It just depends on the person.

Uh, and how is this, uh, experience in our, in our podcast, another guilty shapes, your

view of all the other podcasts you live and listen to the, the true crime podcasts out

there.

Like, I don't know what you're listening to, but yeah.

Yeah.

So it, I, I, I told you this also prior to this, um, that I love your podcast and the reason

why is because I can relate.

Um, I can't relate with a murderer or I can't relate or an accused murderer.

I can't relate with, um, you know, the centrifugal force be with you person that went rolling

out of the car.

I can't relate with any of those people specifically, except for, I can relate with the fact that

I know what the defendant was feeling and I know if the allegations were false, just how

hopeless that you can feel that you don't have a voice to push back.

Like, like I said, I mean, the, the cards are stacked against you at that point in time.

Well, could you imagine like, I mean, being in your situation, I mean, you're just looking

at, I'm not, I'm not trying to minimize it, but a license suspension for a year.

And some of these people are going to trial facing life in prison on shitty evidence where

a prosecutor refuses to look at the evidence and be like, Oh, this is unreasonable.

This didn't happen.

And then someone has to roll the dice with their life.

I can't imagine.

The only, the only thing that I could say is that if you're, if you're willing to be

flexible with the truth on a small case, um, to win, then why wouldn't an officer or prosecutor

be flexible with the truth in a bigger case to win?

It stands to reason that they're not just going to lie about the easy cases.

I would have maybe had a nervous breakdown if I was facing, you know, years of jail time

instead of a year suspension.

Or how about this?

Like in your case, you're at least able to bail out, right?

And fight the case, at least going back to your normal life, sleep in your own bed, shower,

put your own clothes on.

What if, what if you weren't allowed out of custody?

What if you weren't able to bail out?

And they said, and the prosecutor said, and the judge said, we're not going to let you

out.

However, if you plead to the hit and run with the license suspension for a year, we will

let you out of custody.

Then would you have done that?

Or would you have waited the 30 days and spent a month in custody?

Cause a lot of, we have a lot of, we have a lot of cases where we have this shitty shoddy

evidence that's totally unreasonable, but our clients are pleading guilty because they

are offered to go home or they are offered to not lose the rest of their life.

If they just do a year in custody as opposed to 10 years.

I mean, so people on shoddy evidence are pleading guilty because they want to go home or they

don't want to risk their lives.

So would that change things for you?

Right.

I think, I mean, it's hard to, to, to hypothetically walk in those.

It's hard to envision what I would do, but I'd have to say right off the cuff that I would

absolutely plea to get out that day.

If I was facing 30 days in jail, I mean, because to me, the logical thing is that there's a

workaround to get to work and to, to maintain as much of a semblance of my life as was there

before.

But if you're in jail for 30 days, you're talking about losing your job and you're talking about,

you know, your family, there's just so much that goes along with that, that I probably would

have taken that in a second to get out.

And that, that, that to me is, you're, you're making me mad again a little bit thinking about

how the justice justice system works because it just, that level of, of, of pressure on

someone and it's, it's unimaginable, um, that I'm looking at a year in prison or wait inside of a

jail for months and months and go to trial. And you're going to have potentially five to 10 years

in prison. So I just can't, I can't relate with that. That's unimaginable.

Well, Bill, thank you. Thank you so much for reaching out and sending me that email to be on

the show. Cause I really enjoyed your story today and hearing your perspective.

I appreciate what you guys do because, um, it, it, to me, in my eyes, it, it gives me a voice that

I didn't have then. And it gives people, you know, I I'll spare the big speech, but I think that

there's, there's a need for people who are, um, not only can't afford good attorneys or, you know,

that are falsely accused of, or maybe the accusations are excessive that we, they need

advocates and they need people on their side to fight for them when they can't fight for

themselves. And it's critical. And, and I hear that in all of your cases and, um, that I appreciate

that what you guys do. And I found it so interesting. So, um, that's why I reached out.

All right. Well, thanks for being on the show, Bill.

Thanks, David.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of another not guilty. Shout out to Daniel Mark,

original A and G theme music composer and Mike Grimm for the remix. And guess what?

We'll be back in two weeks with another not guilty straight from the trenches.

Yeah.