Pop Cries The Weasel - Defending truth when domestic violence charges spill into immigration risk.

Here at Another Not Guilty, we appreciate your support. Don't forget to subscribe or follow us. And please visit our website at AnotherNotGuiltyPod.com. Without further ado, here's this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm just going to be like, let's set this for trial. But there's one hang up and that's my client has no documentation. She's completely undocumented. I know exactly what the prosecution is going to argue and they're going to say, you know, we've got to stop domestic violence.

You know, this is really serious. And actually like, if you look at the facts of this case, that's, that's making, that's making a mockery of actual domestic violence. And she was at the sink and she had actually just, you know, it went back to washing the dishes after the situation. Um, and they, uh, on the stand, she's like, let me dry my hands. And the officer was like, no. And handcuffed her right there with wet, wet soap pants.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David. I'm Nikhil. We're public defenders here to share the untold stories

of the criminal justice system. Objection. That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't.

I prefer calling it the American criminal system. Okay. Stories from the American criminal system from the forbidden point of view.

The one that the man doesn't want you to know about. Also known as the point of view of the defense.

These stories are about the many not-guilties we public defenders get on a daily basis in an unjust criminal system with the deck stacked against us.

Okay. We're going to like, you know, we're going to do like an intro into, and with the music. Something like,

sometimes you hear a podcast, there's like some snippets. We just want you to give your synopsis of,

of your trial or, or your experience. Yeah. I mean, the whole trial was about, uh, a dad who's a deadbeat

trying to passively control his wife and he accidentally, uh, smacked in the face. Not guilty.

Is that enough? Was that, is that a good bite? Right. The defense was accident. Right.

So it was like in defense of the family, he gets a smack in the face. It was more,

it was more like in defense of your right to like be a parent. All right. To like, you know,

you, you put yourself in this situation. Okay. And you, it was an incidental touching. All right.

It wasn't a fucking, not willful. Yes. It was not on purpose. That's what your instruction says.

There we go. Yeah. Okay. It sounds good. Are we starting right now then? I think so. Let's,

let's get it away. All right. Uh, another week, another, not guilty shock. I mean,

that's what we do here. Not bad. It's a, it's been a while. I feel like we're a little rusty on the,

on the vocal cords, but justice doesn't stop for us, Nikhil. No, it doesn't. It doesn't stop for

holidays. It doesn't stop. It sometimes stops. Yeah. Actually it stops for three day weekends,

nine eighties, nine eighties. We even make up holidays sometimes. What about dismissals?

Dismissals and acquittals. Yeah. Oh, for a podcast name? No, no, just dismissals and acquittals.

Don't be, don't be trying to start your own renegade. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Whoa. Don't listen to that podcast folks. That sounds boring. Yeah. Terrible name.

Terrible name. And, uh, terrible idea.

She said, it's what we do here. And I was like, well, dismissals and acquittals is what we do here.

Dismissal, that's for a lazy, lazy public defender. Those are for those, those like pre-trial working

up attorneys that write motions or do investigation. Yeah. You know, and, and turn it over. Like,

you have to don't, you know, keep it secret. Ira, if you're listening, huh? Dismissals and acquittals,

it's the new thing. It's the new serial. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a shorter version. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like you follow one trial over the course of many weeks. Yeah. Yeah. You fall like all the

ins and outs of the motion practice. Yeah. I got you. I got you. I'm sure it's going to be,

have a real strong following in the community. A lot of those nail biter moments. Yeah. Yeah. And so,

I went to the prosecutor and I was like, you should dismiss this. And the prosecutor was like, okay,

episode one. But we know, uh, dismissals and the dismissals and acquittals wouldn't be a good

podcast because prosecutors just don't dismiss cases. Yeah. I would say that, that doesn't happen,

man. Sometimes grabbing a situation I've never had. Sometimes you get 12 members from the community

to do it for them. Evan, congratulations. Yeah. I know you have a recent, not guilty. Um,

why don't you tell us a little bit about it? Well, what was, what was the charge and give us,

just a little, some, give us some facts. All right. Well, give us some, uh,

prosecution facts first. Some prosecution facts. Well, this is a serious case. Um, this is, uh,

this is a battery on a spouse or someone you share a child with without serious injury. So it was,

it was just a one count PC two 43 subby sub one. Um, and the, the basic facts were, uh, the victim is this,

you know, six foot 210 pound man. Uh, the, no, no, that's the, it's the victim. Oh, the victim.

Okay. It's the complaining witness. And I have a problem saying that sometimes. So it was the,

the victim. Um, and the defendant was his wife, uh, my client. Um, we'll just, I'll just go,

I'll just go quiet on that one. Um, cause I don't want to say her name because there's a,

a reason that I want to share later. Um, I mean, long story short is, uh, he hears an argument

going on in the living room between, um, you know, the mother of his children. They've been separated

for three years. Um, and he's just there taking care of them in her apartment, but he hears an

argument. He's laying on the bed watching TV. Um, he doesn't work and, uh, it's between him and the, uh,

14 year old daughter, um, where's your cell phone? Give me the cell phone. So he walks in

and, you know, on the stand and in the report, he says, he walks in and sees my client, uh, slapping,

slapping her 14 year old daughter in the face, pulling her hair and saying, give me the cell phone.

Um, and so he says, Hey, give her the cell phone. I, I pay for that. Um, and, uh, so then, you know,

daughter gives the cell phone to mom and, you know, there's all this screaming and stuff. So he says,

you know what? Like, I'm worried that I'm going to get the cops called on me. So I'm just going to open

the door and let everybody hear that she's going crazy and is insane. So he walks over to the door

and he tells her that he says, yeah, I'm going to show, I'm gonna show the neighbors what you're

about. And he opens the door. And so she's washing dishes at this point. And she's like, no, you're not

going to open the door. I live here. You don't live here. And so she goes to it and like puts her back

into it. Um, and then there's like a struggle with the door. And what he says is, yeah. And then, um,

she, uh, reeled her arm back and with a closed fist punched me once in the mouth. Uh,

uh, and he sustained, you know, there's photos that he showed to the police who came later,

like a tiny little cut on his bottom lip. So, um, just to stop you there. So he comes out to the

living room. Your client mother is arguing with 14 year old girl about a cell phone. Yeah.

Is that their daughter in common? Their daughter in common. Okay. They got three daughters in common,

15 year old, 14 year old, and like seven year old. Okay. So the 14 year old is the one we're

talking about. Got it. And then he tells 14 year old to give phone back to mom.

Yeah. Your client. 14 year old does it. Yeah. And then he says, your client is arguing so much

that he opens the door. Yeah. So she's like, you know, why'd you get involved? You know, I,

I had it. I didn't need you to come in. Cause she basically steps in and, and says, uh,

um, yeah, you know, it takes all her power away. I mean, she's, she's trying, she takes care of the

kids mostly. Right. And she has a rule, no cell phones, uh, after eight. Cause you got to go and

take a shower. You got to get ready for school. I got to make sure your work is done. So she gets

home and she sees kid on the cell phone. So, you know, he's basically coming in and taking all of her

authority away by, you know, letting the middle child know, you know, I don't have to listen to mom.

Um, you know, when dad says it, I'll give up the cell phone. And so, you know, she's mad about that.

So she starts laying, you know, why'd you, why'd you get into my business? Yeah. Cause they're

separated. Right. I mean, she's raising the kids. So are they living together then? No. So he lives

in Compton with his brother. Okay. Okay. He picks him up from school and then he takes him to her

apartment. Okay. And he watches him for about four hours from about three or whenever they get out of

school until seven, seven 30 when she, um, gets off work from the, from the salon, from the hair salon.

So, you know, he, you know, that's what he, that's what he gives Monday through Friday. He watches him

for about four or five hours. And then he opens the door cause she's arguing and he wants to make

sure everyone hears how crazy she is. Yeah. He says, I'm going to air your dirty laundry. I think

that's the quote from the police report. And she walks over to the door and tries to shut the door.

Yeah. And then in this little struggle happens and she clocks him in the face. That's what he says.

All right. Close fist. Any other prosecution facts? Any other witnesses? Uh, yeah. So the next

prosecution fact is, um, middle child, uh, witnesses, uh, the, uh, mother use a closed fist, uh, to punch

him in the face. Um, the next step is, you know, he goes to the bedroom and now all the little girls

are in the bedroom. Um, and he reports for the first time, your mom just punched me in

the face. Um, and then he calls 911 in front of them. And then, you know, the police come

about seven, 10 minutes later. Um, and they arrest her in her living room in front of her kids

and all the neighbors who are out, you know, like 50 people. This is totally humiliating.

Um, I can't, yeah, those are all the facts that the prosecution want to present. That's their

theory. Right. Their theory is like, she's out of control and she got mad and, you know,

first she like beat up her kid. They didn't charge child abuse. Um, and then, you know,

she, she punched him cause she's just like this wild woman who hates him. So when the police

got, let me ask you this, when the prosecution facts and the police got there, did they, uh,

take your client into custody? Well, step one, they, they separate the parties and they talked

to him. Okay. Okay. And they got this version that we heard. And then they talked to a little

girl and you know, I don't, I don't know how the questioning went down, but they say that

she, uh, said she saw everything and that she said she saw mom, uh, punch her dad one time

with a closed fist. So to me it sounded like he just kind of led her and put those words

in her mouth. I mean, she's a kid. So let me ask you this. Possibly. Police report.

Like when you're reading this police report, what is it? Like her, her summary of the middle

child statements are what? Two lines, one line. Uh, yeah, it's about three sentences. She's

like, she corroborates the fact. Pretty much. Yeah. So that doesn't give you any real details

on what she actually said or how the conversation went down. Right. Okay. This is the 14 year

old, the middle child, the middle child, the corroborating witness, corroborating witness.

The other two girls are in the room the entire time. Yeah. And then, um, and then they

take your client into custody. Um, they interviewed your client. Oh, then they, then they

interviewed my client who's in the kitchen. Um, I'm sorry. Was she in handcuffs, out of

handcuffs when they interviewed her? Yeah. I don't know. Um, no, no, no. She was out

of handcuffs. I do know that. And she was at the sink and she had actually just, you know,

went back to washing the dishes after the situation. Um, and they, uh, on the stand, she's like,

let me dry my hands. And the officer was like, no. And handcuffed her right there with wet,

wet soap. Wet soapy dish soap water on her hands. Yeah. Cause she was dangerous. You

know, she could have done a close fist punch. I keep saying close fist

punch cause that's a classic description of a punch in the, in the police reports. The

best part is she had nails that were about half an inch long. Um, so I don't think she

can make a close fist very effectively. Oh yeah. Like it's like almost her fingers would

be like dug in or nails would be broken or something. And the way he described it, it

was just full force really messed him up. Um, I had to, I had to handcuff her for officer

safety. I'm just asking about this custody status because it just seems like it seems like a

very minor domestic disturbance, you know, even if it was true, the version that he said,

I just don't see the necessity of, of this militarized, let's handcuff this woman, let's

take her down to the station. We got to make sure she's, you know, booked. I mean, this,

this seems like something that should resolve like, okay, this, the court can handle it.

You need to appear in court to resolve it later. Like why, why, why arrest her? You know?

Yeah. He didn't want an emergency protective order. That's his right under the victims. You

know, Marcy's law. She wasn't bleeding. He wasn't bleeding. Yeah. And his excuse for

that was like, Oh, I washed my mouth out afterwards. So there was tons of blood. Tons

of blood. Whoa. Okay. Did the police take pictures of his lip? They took pictures of his

lip. There was a bloody lip. Um, no, there was no blood. It was little, it's like one of those

like little skin, white skin flaps that you get. It looked like the paste that's on the side

in the corner of your mouth. Sometimes, um, it, it was no injury. There was no, there was no

redness on his lips, uh, on the outside. You know, it didn't look like he had been punched.

Um, and how big is your client? Punched. Also, how big is your client? You described the victim.

I'm like what? I'm like five, 10 and she was, she's like five, five. Okay. You're really giving

away your identity now. Yeah. Oh, it's over for me. All right. So then you're there. What'd your

client say to the police then? So she doesn't say anything. She exercises her fifth amendment,

right? No, she says I didn't punch him. And then, um, they keep asking her more questions

and she says, I don't want to talk to you. And then she actually said, I want a lawyer.

Yes. Yes. She's boss. I want to put, I want to put a sound effect of applause right there.

Yeah. That is what I'm talking about. That's literally like, uh, defense attorney dream,

right? Yeah. Just never see that. Just say no guys to the police. Yeah. All right. So she,

and then, so then she gets booked and, and put in custody. Yeah. Yeah. They take pictures of her

crying and weeping at the station. Uh, I think she, she had two days of credit. Um, I didn't do the

arraignment. It was a case that was handed to me. Bail out or she arraigned in custody. I guess she

got OR. I didn't do the, uh, arraignment. I took over a caseload from a PD and this was sort of

pending for a second. Got it. Okay. I mean, that's, that's crazy. So she gets arrested in her house,

dish soapy water in their hands, is taking the police station, two days in jail, gets brought

to a judge and a judge then decides, all right, I'm going to let her out because this is not too

serious. Does she have a record or no record? No record. Wow. Mother of three, mother of three

full time works at a hair salon. All right. So Evan, you get the case and, um, where is it at?

Is it close to trial? Is this pre-trial negotiations going on? Like when you pick up the case, what was

your first, like, I want, when I picked it up, all the interviews had been done. We had our, uh,

investigator go talk to, um, the victim who stuck to his story and embellished it more, a little

more details, uh, than in the police report. Um, he added that hair was being pulled on the,

on the kid when he walked out. Um, he described the punch way more. And this is all to our

investigator. So it's great. I mean, he, it doesn't later, I'm going to use all this to show that he's

a liar. Um, and then, yeah, we had, uh, interviews from the three girls and, uh, the main one was the,

you know, the percipient witness, the daughter said, I didn't see it at all. I didn't see it.

The first time I learned about it, um, was when I was in the room with my sisters and I was changing

and I just didn't want to be a part of the argument. That's probably kind of like regular in their

house. Uh, yeah. If they're separated. And so, uh, I mean that, that's it. I mean, so there's

impeachment right there. Um, so where's the case? I mean, so yeah, so, okay. So where are we at with

pretrial negotiation? Um, yeah, absolutely. I'm just going to be like, let's set this for trial,

but there's one hangup and that's, uh, my client, um, has, has, uh, no, no documentation. She's

completely undocumented. So, you know, okay. So if it's like a U S citizen or even a green card

holder, I'm like, yeah, we're ready to go to trial. I mean, I'll, I'll win this. I can

definitely, it's like, you know, I think other people wouldn't try it, but I'll, I feel like

to me it's a sure thing. So. Cause you have the, the embellished statements from the father,

the victim. You have the, the 14 year old saying, I didn't say anything to the police. I have

a de minimis injury. De minimis injury. I have a size differential and I have a good story

and I can sell this. I know I can sell it. What's your good story? Cause we haven't even

heard the defense is not, it's not, I don't even do self-defense, right? I don't even go

there. All right. It's just accident. Oops. Accidents. Yeah. I had a PowerPoint, you know,

wait, wait, Evan, are you, are you going with the old, I fell down the stairs, uh, defense?

Yeah. I, I, uh, I fell into him. I fell into him. Yeah. He fell into me. Yeah. It was like

that Bart Simpson thing where he's like, he's like, look, I'm going to be kicking this air.

And if you walk forward, you kicked yourself. Watch out. Or is it swinging arms? Yeah.

Swinging arms. No, Lisa did the kick the air. She's like, well, I'll just be kicking this air.

That's genius. Yeah, it is. Nah. You should have played that clip when you were closing.

All right. For next time. We really, we learned a lot. Now 70 guys, right? It's all about the

images. So you've talked to the client. She says it was an accident. Um, well, what do we,

let's go tell, okay. Let's tell us how you want to tell it then. Yeah. Well, I, I liked talking

about the immigration thing. I want to get that into like a big piece. So yeah. So don't cut

him off. So, you know, otherwise I set it for trial cause it's all worked up and has everything

I want. I feel like I can win this. Um, so if it's a citizen, that's exactly what I do.

But because she's undocumented in this crime of domestic violence will render her deportable

Again, inadmissible from the country. It can be used to deny her, uh, you know, a U visa,

humanitarian relief, possibly, um, do some punishment and I can negotiate what's called

informal diversion, right? We keep this dumb misdemeanor, uh, on the pretrial track. You

never enter a plea, but maybe you do like a ton of community labor, like 30 days, a lot,

uh, get some letters to get some mitigation together. You know, you're a good mom, good

employee, um, maybe do some domestic violence classes. And if you do all that in like six

months, maybe I can convince these DAs to follow their obligation to consider immigration consequences

and dismiss it. Um, but they'll never, so they, so that was my counter offer. I went into those

negotiations and it was not on the table. So. And real quick, so let's go through. Well,

so you pitched this to the DAs. I mean, it's pretty reasonable. I'll give them a lot

of community service to my client is like a upstanding member of the community. Um, and

what, what is, what is their reaction when you try to resolve this case for an immigration

friendly plea? So, well, their reaction is, uh, we think the injuries, uh, um, are serious.

The misdemeanor injuries? It wasn't even charged as the serious injury count of domestic violence.

It wasn't even charged as a misdemeanor with injury. It was, yeah, it was without injury. And,

um, they were really upset that the daughter was present and that there could have been some touching

of the daughter, not upset enough to charge child abuse, which doesn't, you know, doesn't make sense

to me. Um, but that was like an aggravating factor. So they started calling this an aggravated domestic

violence, which that's not even a real thing. There's no such thing as like aggravating, whatever.

Um, and then what, and what else? Oh, and so then, you know, and so then their next jerk move is to

say, well, we have a cooperating witness. So, you know, a lot of the times they'll have like, you

know, the guy will be like, you know what, like, I really maybe went too far calling the police

and I lied. Or he would say, walk it back. But he's just such a dirt bag. He just keeps the

narrative going. And now the cops and this whole jury trial process that happens, just like another

stick that he's used. It's like another door he's opening to shame her, you know, now it's

in front of 50 people now. Um, he's not even minimizing it. No, no. He's not even a victim.

He's not even being a victim of domestic violence because he's not minimizing it. Yeah. Cause a real

victim is probably recanting. Oh, it wasn't that bad. I love this person. I really don't want them

to get in trouble. It happens all the time. It's my fault. That's the cycle of abuse that we normally

see. And seeing someone use it as a, as a stick is kind of usually the sign that they're lying. Yeah. He,

he chuckled on the stand during his testimony. It's sick. Um, and we'll get to that in a second.

But so, so, so the, I guess the way the DA is saying it, seeing it is like, well, I can prove my

case. Um, I think that's really the only reason they didn't go along with my, uh, immigration friendly

counter. Um, I think the, the, the, the only thing they did was strike the 30 days of community,

of, uh, county jail. They said, we won't have her do 30 days in jail. But she's stuck with the

conviction. Yeah. She's, which is the only thing that matters. So, so once the negotiations break

down, yeah. Were you part of this? I mean, of course you feel bad for your client, but it's part

of you like, all right, let's go. Um, yeah, yeah, no, I like going to trial and it was good cause it

was, you know, that was the first trial that I had in this new assignment in East LA and it was all

new DAs and I'm a new PD. I'm only been doing it for, well, I was a PD before I was a lawyer,

I'd say, cause I volunteered for this office for free for like a year and a half. Um, and then I,

you know, thankfully got hired and I've been loving it for almost, I'm too much shy of three years in

the office. So I'm brand new. Um, but they're even brand newer, new, new beer. And, uh, so it's kind

of like, you know, it's like they're, they think they're tough. They're 25 years old as my opposing

DA, which is an insert amount of power, uh, for a 25 year old to wield over someone's life.

And, and, uh, it was good to go to trial, get a win and then kind of show them like, you know,

don't fuck with me. Right. Right. Like I'm serious when I say like, I'm going to go to trial or I want

this deal. This is what I think case is worth. It's like when you, you know, you go to prison and

kind of got to beat up somebody when you first get there to make everybody respect you. Right.

Yeah. It's like the new guy. So everybody, I mean, right. Can't see the books I've read. I've never

been, nobody can see me on the podcast, but I'm, you know, I'm smaller. Right. You got like, I was

going to, I was going to use my, my idea is always like, well, you know, I'll just become the jailhouse

lawyer. What a really good one. Right. And I'll just trade that knowledge for like ramen, you know,

right. Always feeding the good show you, um, ramen. Is that your strategy if you ever go in?

It's what I think about. Yeah. Me too. I think about that all the time. I strategize. I'm like,

how am I going to survive in there? Cause I like, like Evan, I'm actually even smaller

and I'm like, I'm scrappy. Maybe I can, uh, you know, evade, evade, uh, assaults by just

ducking out of the way a lot. Well, they kill you have that movie tie background a little

bit. The movie tie. Oh, movie tie. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I thought she said movie tie. Yeah,

me too. I was like, I've had a couple glasses of wine again. I'm going to put that out there.

That's true. That's true. But still, I mean, you know, um, it's a scary place in there,

right? Yeah. And you guys can check out Nikhil's photos on, no, we don't have a website up yet,

but not yet. Not yet. But by the time this podcast airs, you can check out our photos.

Maybe even take a photo of, uh, Evan, me and David sitting here doing the podcast. With an emoji on

my face though. Now that you know you're going through a trial, what do you got to do to get

ready? You already have the statements, the witness statements, right? So are you set?

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Somebody else did that for you, right? Someone else already worked up

this case for me. So after, after doing the immigration research and advising her,

so what do I do? Uh, I'm at the point, you know, I'm carrying 60 open cases and like 20 of them are

just licensed cases. So they're not so bad. But, um, I mean, you know, I don't start working it up

really until, uh, voir dire starts, you know, like in terms of really, you know, getting together who I

want on the jury and thinking about that. I've already done this case, like this fact pattern,

like four times. So I kind of know what I want jury wise and what I'm going to get out of all these

witnesses. Um, so what do you want jury wise? What are you looking for? All right. So I'm,

what I'm looking for, um, are people who are going to, uh, criticize and judge the, um, the, uh, the

victim. All right. The big guy. So for me, uh, in East LA and with this guy, um, and they both speak

Spanish. So everybody has Spanish interpreters. Um, what I want someone is, uh, is an older Latino

male or older men. We're going to look at this guy like an asshole. Okay. Right. Um, I don't want

older women because I think older women judge, uh, younger women or people that are, uh, of their same

age real hard. And they're going to come down on her and be like, you know what, you should have

just like taken it or you were like being too hysterical. Um, but what I really want, I really

lucked out on this panel and I never done this and I don't, I've only done like 20 trials, but it's

like, I didn't do any peremptories and neither did the people. And then we stepped to the first three

as alternates. So literally the first 15 people were our jury. Um, and it's because what I really

wanted were people who had experience with crazy domestic violence. So that's kind of what starts

coming out, right. When you have the 50 people coming in and the first 12 in the box are talking

about like story after story about how in their family, it has been the real cycle of domestic

violence. So one guy's talking about how he's like, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, every year,

dad being the shit out of mom, him not saying anything, her not saying anything. Right. And

you know, and when he's like 20, he can kind of like convince her to maybe come live with

him, you know, and escape. All right. I love this chair. Right. Because he knows, I know exactly

what the prosecution is going to argue and they're going to say, you know, we got to stop domestic

violence. You know, this is really serious. And actually like, if you look at the facts of

this case, that's, that's making, that's making a mockery of actual domestic violence.

Right. That's, that's like telling the victims like, Hey, you know what? Like, uh, don't call

the cops because if you do, um, or you're just going to be in the defendant's chair, you know?

Right. Another, I had a guy who he was the victim of domestic violence. Right. So the

prosecutor is like salivating over this guy. Right. But his story is so extreme. It's like,

he's like, yeah, I was in that abusive relationship with this woman for like seven years. And you know,

now, uh, she picked up a felony drug possession and for sales. And now she's like in prison and like

towards the end of the relationship, I knew it was over when she took a coffee pot, like a Mr. Coffee

that was glass and smashed it over my head. And I was unconscious for like half an hour until the

police came. Cause like our neighbor heard the fight and it was crazy. So I'm like, yeah, of course I

want that guy on my jury. Because again, like, it's just, it's like a crazy experience. He's going to

look at this situation and be like, that's not domestic violence. He's going to say, why are we here?

And that's what the jury overwhelmingly were telling me, like, how did this get filed?

And I, you know, I was like, well, first she's like, why did it go to trial? Is what people

ask me. And I'm like, well, first she didn't do it. And second, I was straight up because I like

to talk to my jurors about immigration consequences always, even when they convict. Um, and, uh,

I was like, well, you know, we, we offered these consequences just to appease them because

she gets to port and she has the kids, um, and they wouldn't go for it. And they were just like

beside themselves, you know, judging the prosecution. Right.

And how kind of weird and irresponsible that was.

So then what's your, do you have like, uh, what kind of questions were you posing to the

jurors or the, yeah, the jurors in Boisdier then?

I mean, so like in Boisdier, like my idea, and I learned this from, from my colleague who

I won't say his name cause I guess that's taboo. Um, he's like, all right, what you're

doing is like deselecting jurors in Boisdier. And so I was like, okay, so I've been trying

to do that. And like the first idea you have is like, you want to get jurors just like

spill in their guts so you can like really jam them for cause. Um, and this is like, instead

of like educating them about the law. Um, and so the first thing I would do is this, I just

talk about, um, like some mental health experience either that I've had or in my family and then

talk about how, you know, if I was on a jury and there are mental health issues, I'd be biased

for the defense. And then, and then I'm like, and that's not fair to the people. It's not,

you know? And so then I'd be like, I would have to share that and get off. So you kind

of like go raw yourself and then hopefully they'll start talking. And I think it worked

cause they're all like talking about some serious stuff.

So is that what you do then? You talk, you, you go to the jurors and you say, this is the

type of case I would not be a good juror on because this happened to me and these are my

feelings. And so I should, you know, this is what I would not be good on. And so I want

to know, are you going to be a good juror on this domestic violence case? And if so,

or not a good juror, you know, tell me why or what's going on. Is that kind of like how

you do it?

No, it's, it's more like, look, I mean, we're looking for that level of honesty and I, you

know, I just want to put myself out there and I hope you will too. Cause it's weird for

me. Like I look young and I'm going to be asking all these invasive questions and you

know, I just let people know that like it is weird and I'm willing to be open and I hope

you will too. It's like an icebreaker almost. And it's true. Like I, I find it weird.

weird for me to do without giving some of myself to ask people questions about pretty

traumatic things in their life. Cause it's always going to go to that when it's a criminal

case. Um, so then after that, I, my areas that I wanted to know about were experience with

domestic violence. And I just tried to get, I mean, not only did I want to like know how

traumatic it was for people who said they experienced DV, but I also wanted to pull as many facts

from them. So everybody could hear what real DV was, right? People who had no experience

because I just, again, I wanted to like from the get go from, from what here, like Cass's

whole thing, um, in the light of it's just an accident, right? That's my whole idea. This

isn't domestic violence. It's an accident. So that's happening. Um, you know, there's this

whole thing with the kid and like, she's getting disciplined and maybe like, you know, she was

spanked or touched. I don't know what the facts are going to be coming out. So I go like, okay,

like I was spanked as a kid, like who, who agrees with like corporal punishment or like who doesn't.

And I get that conversation going and some people, I would never think my kids. I'm like, okay,

but like maybe someone else would. And you know, what would you say is, would you step in?

Yeah. Um, and people shared about that. So I've kind of wanted to like neutralize

the kid that may be like yelling at a kid to discipline him about the phone or stuff like

that. Um, and I kind of went big. I made it seem like, you know, it was maybe a little

unjustified so that when they heard the little girl wasn't giving the phone up after like

violating phone time rules and like was never touched. And you know, it was just in the backpack,

which was going to be our facts that came out. Um, they'd be like, Oh, like I wasn't like

any child abuse. I guess that guy, you know, again, they see it in a different light.

You, uh, you said, Hey, if there was a child breaking the rules, you gave a specific fact

pattern of the cell phone. No, no, I didn't give the cell phone fact pattern. I kept that

secret cause I wanted, I gave a pattern of like just breaking the rules and would you spank

a kid? What do you think about, you know, like, you know, my mom put like tapatio on my lips

when I would say bad words. And now I think about that. I'm like, that's fucked up, man.

That's like horrible. Like you really watch me. No taco, just tapatio.

Like straight on my lips. And I was like fucking like five, you know, like, sorry, mom. I love

you. Ooh, I like that. Cause there's no evidence of it later either. The tapatio goes away. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No marks, no marks. And they're like, well, he just loves tapatio. I mean, I don't

know. It's in his blood. Heaven's Mexican. That's why I care about immigration. You guys.

Did you have any interesting 402s? We didn't talk about that. Yeah. I mean, the number one

interesting 402 is, is, it's great. So, so what's the most irrelevant thing in domestic

violence cases where there's irrelevant, irrelevant thing. Um, sorry, I'm being sarcastic. Oh,

okay. Immigration issues are really relevant to me. All right. So, um, in this case, like

I said, our, my clients, she's undocumented completely. Um, and he, uh, he is a U S

citizen. So what he has the power to do is sponsor her, um, to be a U S citizen. And so depending

on his abusive moods, he'll tell her, you know, Hey, yeah, I'll, I'm going to sponsor

you. I'm going to get the paperwork going. And then, you know, other days he'll be like,

I'm going to call ice on you. So that's, it's just another like stick that he has. So, you

know, I want to, I mean, it goes to his credibility. Like, Hey, don't you like, you know, play games

with your wife, uh, and like threatening to remove her from the country like often. Um, and then

he can answer however he wants. He would probably say no. And then I can put her up and say

the opposite. Um, but that's, you know, the judge rules that that's irrelevant. So I did

it as a 402, you know, and, uh, that you asked if you could ask that or did the prosecutor

say, I want to exclude that question. So the prosecutor upfront goes, I want to exclude

any mention of immigration. All right. So then I just throw at the judge. Well, here's what

this guy does. And I think it goes to credibility and it is relative to lie. Motive to lie. Um,

and, uh, you know, the judge is like, well, it's excluded for now. And then I'm like, well,

I don't know if the door gets opened at some point, I'm going to ask for it. He's like,

okay, we'll see if we get there. Um, but it's not in. Yeah.

Cause it seems like he's the, the domestic violence abuser. He has all the power and

control and manipulation, which is almost, you know, and maybe in hindsight thinking about

it, right? Like we talk about, it goes to whether it corroborates, whether your client

or the victim is truly a victim. And you're saying, listen, the power dynamic is critical

in domestic violence, you know, incidents, but they're going to, the DA is always going

to come up here and say, Oh, this person is powerless. This is why they, they, you know,

this is a family relationship. There's all these dynamics of domestic violence that we

hear in expert testimony or, or just even in an argument. And by arguing or conversely

saying this guy has the power in this dynamic and that makes him more likely to be the abuser

and her less likely to be the abuser. That is why the immigration status is relevant in and of

itself. But, and the prosecutors don't consider that point of view and, you know, either did the judge

and then the jury didn't get to. So, so no immigration came out during the trial, no immigration

issues. No. But you know, what was ironic is, or not ironic, but I mean, if you're, if you're a

halfway intelligent juror and you're looking at two individuals that are only speaking Spanish in this day

and age. Um, and especially if you have Spanish speakers, um, who can hear a straight, perfect, uh,

Mexican accent. Um, even though the law says that they can't consider those, you know, collateral

consequences or sentencing or anything like that. Right. Um, in some sense, I understand that, but

like from a legal point of view, but from like a human point of view, no. I mean, that rule is usually

supposed to protect, it was originally written to protect us. Right. But in so many ways, I feel like

nowadays I want them to, like, I, I just did a felony trial recently and you know, I lost and I remember

going straight outside and telling, talking to the jurors and making sure they knew how much time my

guy faced for the kind of insignificant conduct that he was charged with. And every single one of them

was aghast. Like they were like dropped, dropped faces. I mean, one woman started crying, you know,

and it was, I think it's important because I think if the community knew the collateral consequences or

the real consequences in many instances on a lot of our minor cases or these cases where they're like,

why is this going on? They, maybe they would nullify it. If not, fine. You know, just, or, or at least

look at it contextually differently. Yeah. At least, or at least really listen to the judge and to us

when we talk about beyond a reasonable doubt and like why it's so serious. And it's like,

why does it have to be a secret? Like you, you don't have to say the judge could be like, well,

here's the possible maximum, right? That's just, that's just the law. You know, I'll be in charge

of what he gets. All right. But this is the maximum. Why, why should that be a secret? It's not a

secret. They could not go again. They just have to not consider it, I guess. But it is a good

consideration. I think it, well, cause it denigrated in smaller cases, right? Oh, it's only six months.

And then, you know, you could, and that could be applied differently. I see what you mean. Depending

on where you're at, you know, people may have different attitudes toward criminal defendants

in different jurisdictions. I mean, I get it, but there are times, right, where you think it's such

a helpful tool to be like, if they only knew how, how serious, how, how bad this could be. Right. I feel

like I could win this trial, you know? Yeah. So I talked about those things, the child abuse, and then the,

you know, got as much domestic violence facts out there as I could, so I could use it later and kind of

contrast all my facts. And then, and I talked about, I think I talked about reasonable doubt at the end,

and I talked about like what it means for the people to have their burden. And I did some stuff

that I saw like an APD and Compton do once, and it's like in my bag of explanatory tricks. So,

you know, pulled that out and then I was done. This is for a reasonable doubt? Yeah. How do you

explain it to the jurors in your blood here? Well, so the one I was just talking about. And I'm

going to trial next week, so I need some. Yeah, here it goes. I'm taking notes. I actually took notes.

She, so she's talking about how, what it means for the people to have their burden. I think burden's

kind of a confusing word. So it's like, it's, it's their job to prove it. And it means you got to

make sure they do their job. Okay. So it's kind of like, and I go, it's kind of like that, that hammer

game at the county fair, right? Where you got to like swing the mallet and hit the thing. And then

they have to give you enough evidence to light it, you know, all the way up, not all the way up,

but like high up there because you got to, you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, not all possible

doubt. Cause it's like, you know, aliens didn't do this, but that high. And I'm not playing that

game with them. That's what's the key is they have to play that game all by themselves. That's my

little spiel about the burden. Uh, meaning that they have the burden of proof. Like they have to hit the

mallet and they have to make it go all the way up and hit that will hit the target. Ding. Right. And

but it's not a competition. I'm not playing that game. Okay. What my job is to do is, uh, make sure.

All right. That that evidence is good enough with you, you know? And it's like, now, now we're like

team defense, right? We're right. You and me. Right. That's what we're doing because, you know, and it's

like, well, why? Cause they have all, all the power here. You know, like I'm a guy, I'm the asshole

in the, in the, in the arena saying, that guy didn't hit it hard enough. That guy's not a real

man. Right. A real man would've got that bell run. And I put, and I always wear a three piece suit

in that time. And I take my jacket off. I have a vest and I look like a carny and I have the stuffed

animals. I'm like, nah, I don't think you're not going to get the bear. Yeah. You can get one of those

pop-up things. We invert it. The plastic thing. So what about the, the prosecutor? Just like a

typical domestic violence voir dire on his behalf? Uh, yeah. Like I mean, or her behalf. It was

terrible. I mean, it's just that thing. She didn't learn anything about the jurors and none of them

spoke. Um, well, okay. There was like one funny thing that came out that was great, but you know,

her, her whole thing was, and she'll get better. I just think it was like her second or third trial,

but she, she's like, who here thinks that the state shouldn't get involved in people's

relationships, you know? And then like, I see no hands. So it was a series of, I see no hands

questions that are, I mean, that's bad. That's not when I see attorneys in our office doing it,

I can't really bad. And it's like for the record, I see no hands. It's like, nobody cares about that

record, dude. Like, um, so then once like, I've been there, she talks to this Latino guy,

like he was during number nine and we kept him obviously. And, uh, he goes, he goes, Oh,

the question was like, well, do you think that like men can be the victims of domestic violence?

That's a good question. Okay. So he's like, yeah, I mean, my dad, I mean, he's a big guy

and like everybody in my family knows that like my mom gets pissed off him. She could knock him out.

And I'm like, okay. And she's like, you know, cause like, you know, we're Mexican and he's still late.

Damn it. Like, you know, like completely like balladay. I was like, but I liked him. He was good.

Okay. So 402s, voir dire, voir dire. All right. Tell us the other highlights of your trial.

Opening statement. Yeah. So, I mean the, the story that I'm telling is that, and it, and so my,

my friend, can I say his name? Okay. We call him DV, DVD, DV Don. Okay. Cause he's just,

he's, he's just a, I've been trying to unpack why he's so good at domestic violence. I think

he just understands fucked up human relationships in a deep way. So he's taught, we're hashing it out

and spit balling. And he's like, you know what this is? This is just like, and I said it earlier,

this is just like passive control. It's the most insidious kind of control. So then I'm like,

yeah, you know what? That's what this is. That's what this story is. And that's where I just kind

of get the whole, like, he's using all these different sticks to humiliate and undermine her,

right? Neutralizes her parent power, airs her dirty laundry at the, by opening the door.

All right. Gets her arrested by lying to the cops, says some stuff to the kids to make an,

and calls 911 and has her arrested in front of her kids. All right.

And then it's going to come up on the stand and lie and use this again. It's like another,

just way to mess up his ex because he doesn't like her. Um, but it's passive, right? He's not,

he didn't hit her. He's not, uh, you know, um, well, I mean, he does threaten to have her deported

sometimes, but that's not going to come in. He, but again, that's passive too, right? He's not,

he doesn't yell. He doesn't call her names all the time. He doesn't take money or steal from her. He

doesn't, you know, he stays with the kids and is with them. Right. But he just like,

gets these little digs more than digs, right? Like constantly, that's his game. Um, so my

opening is, is about that. So what's this case about? This case about control. Um, but it's

about, you know, this, this passive control in two ways, right? It's with the controlling the

kids and trying to make sure the kids are on his side against her. Um, and then controlling

her through humiliation, public humiliation. So those are my two, my two ideas. And then I'm just

going to plug in the facts and then you just go, you're going to hear, and I can't, you know,

you got to keep your closing loose. So I, I left it open if self-defense was going to happen or

if my, you know, actual defense, which was accident, you know, I just didn't say anything

about that. So the way I said it was like, you're going to hear that he started this ball in motion

and he's the reason that he has an injury, right? So that's kind of, it's a little general. And then

I'm like, you know, at the end, um, you know, I'm really confident you're going to, you're going

to acquit. Control. I like it. Passive on the kids. I don't hurt. I mean, that's what's happening

too, right? And I have a question about when the guy, when he came out and saw the mother and the

fight over the cell phone. And when does the daughter of the 14th admit that she was having an

argument with the mom on the cell phone? Yeah. And does she admit that she gave the cell phone

to the mom when the dad asked? Yeah. Okay. And where their stories diverge is, uh, after the cell

phone was given, dad says, give the cell phone away. She just goes into her bedroom with her two

other sisters and doesn't see anything after that. All right. And the first witness in the trial is

the victim, right? Yeah. Okay. How does he testify? Um, bad. I mean, he, he laughs during his

testimony, which makes him seem not credible. Um, she just, you know, the prosecutor leads

him and he says everything. He was laughing on direct, on direct examination. He laughed.

Yeah. Yeah. What was the funny question? It was just about like when he came out to, um,

see the wife, discipline the daughter. Um, and he's like, yeah, she just was like, you know,

trying to get the phone back. Like, you know, he's not taking it seriously. Yeah. He's like a real

victim and he got punched. Like, I think he might've been like, you know, I came out and

I, I had to neutralize, uh, some out of control discipline that was going on and you know, Hey,

I know she broke the rules, but you're going a little too far on the kid. Right. It's not

a big deal. Instead, he's just kind of laughing. Right. Yeah. Which makes it seem like you get

a solid game to him. It wasn't serious. And now he's, he doesn't take this whole process

seriously. He doesn't really understand what he's doing to her. He does. I wonder if the

kids don't respect the mom because the dad doesn't respect her, you know, like, or they're

just teenage assholes. Well, or they're just, or it's a teenage daughter and a mother. I don't

know. I guess I could have them. I mean, so when my client testified, which she did, um, she

talks about how the little one is an angel and the older one in high school, um, is good. It's just the

middle one who's in middle school is like having a problem. They're having a problem with

her. She has an attitude problem. She doesn't listen. Um, so to answer your question, I feel

like, you know, she doesn't really, the other two girls like mom. They listen to mom. She's

a real Jan, huh? Well, yeah, I guess so. She's kind of, well, yeah, she's a Jan. Yeah. Yeah.

Total Jan. The best part though, is like the whole fan, like the little girl, she has to

come to court every day at like eight 30, right? So she's not taking the kids to school

because she has to come at eight 30. He won't go and get the kids and take them to school.

So they're just, so for like five days, they were just in court. Um, which is great because

like, you know, they're outside and the jury gets to see them and, you know, I'm bringing

them, you know, mom has them with snacks and they're doing like good activities.

So the kids were unfortunately in court. Yeah. The kids are with mom and they're all, uh,

Oh, so one of the big themes that the prosecutor has during direct is that, you know, Oh, the

kids live with mom for the last six months. Mom has been consistently poisoning them and

getting them to lie against dad. Right. It's like, are you kidding me? Like in my closing,

I was like, this isn't the Russia investigation. It's crazy. Like they live with her. And matter

of fact, the little girl was called to testify against her and mom brought her, you know,

to court to basically, you know, possibly send her to jail. You know, that's, that's asinine

to think that. Um, anyway, yeah. The, the, the, so yeah, the victim testifies first. He does

kind of bad. How was your, your cross-examination? Well, the best part was when I, um, I was able

to get out that, uh, like get a description from him of like this crazy beat down that my client

did on the kid. Uh, I would think it was like five major slaps to her face and this

like crazy hair pull, which he had talked about to my investigators, like get all that

out. And then, you know, eventually, you know, the kid testifies, did your mom ever slap

you? No. Pull your hair? No. Uh, and then, you know, the cop comes and he testifies and

I'm like, did you, so you, you interviewed the little girl, right? You said she was crying,

right? Yeah. Yeah. She was crying. Um, did you notice any like redness on her face at

all? No. Was her hair messed up? No, it wasn't like a ponytail, you know, like it

wasn't. So he completely like, did you get in with the cop? Did you get into, well, you

know, did you try to impeach the dad or the victim by saying, oh, well he did, did he tell

you all the, all these embellishments or all this greater story at the time of the incident?

Or are you kind of left that alone and let it speak for itself?

I kind of left it alone. Okay. Yeah. I don't remember. I didn't, I didn't get too much

out of the cop. Like the one thing that I really focused on was like, and like, so like

the end is like, you had to arrest someone, right? He's like, yeah. I'm like, that's like

the new OJ law, right? And he just like, you know, kind of obviously knew it and was evasive

about it. And I just wanted the jury to hear that. You said OJ law? Yeah. And there was

no objection? Do we know what the OJ law is? I mean, I know what it is, but did you really

say that in trial? Yeah. And did you objected to? I got objected to relevance. Um, and then

I just said it again. Well, what I mean is like, you know, you, you, in a domestic violence

case where there's evidence of domestic violence on both sides, like you have to arrest someone,

right? You can't leave empty handed. And his, he's just like, well, you know, when I think

of crimes happen, I arrest someone. Okay. All right. And I was like, and then you were

there for 15 minutes? Yes. Okay. You know, obviously he just got in, got out and had to arrest

somebody and it happened to be her. So yeah. And with the kid, what I do with the kid,

I just like, I was like, can you, can you just show me like a, can you show me a punch?

She's like, yeah. And she just does this. And so my idea there was, okay, well, I mean,

I'm sure the cop just asked her, can you show me a punch? And she just does an automatic,

like anyone can show you a punch when you're that young. Okay. I'll just do it. I mean,

the whole theory with the kid is like, she didn't see anything. She hears all this crazy

fighting at a door. And then the next thing she knows is dad comes into her bedroom with

her two other sisters, closes the door, tells her, mom just punched me in the face.

I'm calling 911. So to the kid. And then 10 minutes later, she's being interviewed by a

police officer. So she's had one authority figure tell her mom just punched me. And then an officer

is asking questions. What happened? Mom punched my dad. How? I, a punch, you know, like, I'm sure

that's what happened. And he just wrote it down. Like she's some star witness and she wasn't. So

can I ask you something? When the father testified or the victim, how did he say he was punched? How

did he describe it at the door? Like, what was the, what did he say? He said, so I think the,

one of the things that I focused on the closing is he says, well, her back is on the door. So she's

pushing against it with her back and has her legs. So she, this is the door that opens inward.

Okay. Into the house. So she has her back on the door and she's pushing back and he has his hand on

the handle and he's pulling it in. So there's a tension on the door. So she's pushing back to

keep it open? To keep it closed. Because she doesn't want her dirty laundry out. She wants to

keep it in the apartment. So the door's closed and he's trying to open it and she's leaning against it

with her back against it, trying to keep it closed. And he's trying to pull it open. Because he opened

it. Then she goes to close it and she does. And then he goes to reopen it again. And she's like,

no. And she's now, now they're fighting over the door. Okay. So he says, while she's pushing with

her back against the door, she punched me with a closed fist. Okay. So opposite direction of what

she's exerting the force on the door. Also, she can't do a windup if her back's on the door,

right? The way he described it is, yeah, like fucking, cause the arm can't go back. Yeah. It's

just, it did. And so then the little girl again describes it or sorry, the cop gets on the stand

and says, she described it this way. Okay. Did she show it to you? Yes. And he does the full windup.

Okay. So now you've gotten these descriptions of punches that don't make physical sense with

where he even is putting her. And my client said, yeah, I was on the door too. Okay. So that,

that was interesting. I think they, they focused on that. And that was his version of on direct.

That's his version on direct. Did you, what was your, did you ask any questions or details on

cross? No, I left that alone. You left it alone. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I, you know, my, you, I leave a lot

alone and then I just argue a lot. I mean, you're allowed to argue reasonable inferences. So, right.

I feel like sometimes I need to get better at, uh, leaving stuff alone, leaving alone. Cause they

always, I feel like they correct it the second or third time you, you bring it up. Like they see,

Oh, I see why you're asking that. Well, let me just more, more, more competent TAs. Um, we'll correct it.

That's another problem too. On redirect or something like that. Yeah. I learned it from this really

good PD and he told me to always leave it alone like that. You know, just keep it. Is that,

is that the extent of the prosecution's case? Those three witnesses? The father. Yeah. The daughter and

then the cop to impeach the daughter. Okay. So then you put on your client. Yeah. Okay. Is that the

only witness you put on? It's the only witness I put on. Tell us about that. Uh, she did great.

You know, I didn't, uh, the first time I ever went through questions with her was kind

of just like generally in the little client interview room. Um, the, uh, morning before

she testified, I had like an hour cause I hate, I, you know, I don't really like prepping

my witnesses too much cause they're going to sound completely coached. Um, and I knew she

was legit and she just got up and she was a great advocate for herself. And so, so many of

my questions were just like, what happened next? And so, you know, in my direct, I, I, um,

I do things that I think the jury really likes. So I finally, like, you know, I, I get her

to draw a floor plan of the whole house, you know? Okay. So you can see where all the doors

are and you can see where the apartment building is and all the bedrooms. Finally, we get to

like see that. Okay. Um, and then I, I got up and I just saw like the, I kind of just came

to me, like there were all these pieces of cardboard in the back behind the witness stand.

Um, so I just went up and I'm like, you know what? Like, I'm just going to draw a doorknob

on that piece of cardboard and we're going to like act it out. And then I even like marked

it as like defense D and like admitted it into evidence. So I don't know what the court stop

is going to do with the doorknob. How big was the cardboard? Like, well, okay. So then

I like, it was not door sized, but I needed to use it to get her to explain where she was

on the, on the door. Um, and she had shown that to me when we were, when we were going

over things. Um, and, uh, how, what, I mean like, how did she describe it went down? Okay.

So this is, this is what happened. This is why it's an accident. No, don't open the door

and air our dirty laundry. I'm shutting that door. So she goes to the door and she puts her

back to it and her leg against it. And with her right arm, she wraps her fingers around

the entire door. So, so if it closed, if she got what she wanted, she's going to smash

her fingers. Okay. So she's kind of doing that and she realizes the position she's in

and he's, but she's still pushing back as he's pulling it with all his weight to open it into

the, you know, into the living room. Right. And so she realizes, oh shit, I'm losing. Uh,

I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let go and I don't want to smash my fingers. So she moves

her foot and shifts her weight and then he really gets to win. And so his force pulls

it in and she just kind of falls into him and her hand hits his mouth and his lip

just, you know, pushes into his teeth and he gets a little tiny, uh, cut in the inside

of his lip. Oh, like a little teeth indentation. It's a teeth. That's all it is. It's a teeth

indentation. Sorry. I was touching my lip. Yeah. And, uh, it was like, it's like one of

those like skin flaps that it was literally like a centimeter long. It looks like that

gunk that's on the side, inside of your cheek sometimes that you can scrape off with your

fingernail and then either smell it or put it away, but not throw away. Just put it

away. Just put it in post too. Let's fix that one in post too. Did you, uh, wait, did you,

you didn't put that in your closing argument? Did you? Hey, jurors, you know,

that gunk you just say for later? No, I'm like, I mean, my closing had, it was like a big picture

of like the injury. Yeah. Like in the PowerPoint. And then I did like a zoom in where I like cropped

the photo and I'm like, that's, that's it. Okay. That's, and that could be caused, you know,

by a punch or by this, um, circumstantial evidence, which is not, it's not circumstantial

evidence. Um, and then I, and then I did a zoom in. I'm like, this is what she looked like on the

day of. And then I zoomed in onto her nails cause you could see that on the, uh, one photograph

that the police took and they're all long and present and she didn't punch him. It's ridiculous.

The nails weren't broken. Well, yeah, there was, she would have had like nail inditations on her

palm or something like that. If she put a real fist. Yeah. Or she wouldn't have been able to make a

strong fist. So, wow. So your, your theory really was just incidental conduct. They're struggling

over the door and her hand flies up and then kind of hits him in the face. Yeah. It's not

intentional. It's incidental. And he's being an ass cause she doesn't want, she doesn't want to air

out the dirty laundry. She's all, she's a, you know, don't, you don't, you feel sorry for her that

she's trying to shut the door because he's being a, she's upset at him and he's going to let everybody

know. So he's not respecting her. The prosecution didn't even put, um, the pictures of the injuries

in their case because they knew they're, they're diminished. They're just going to rely on his

testimony. Right. And the cops saying, so I had to introduce the photographs, right?

That's good. And so he has pictures of the, uh, photographs or he's looking at a picture

of him. He said, yeah, that's me on the day of. And so then I show him a picture of her

and he goes, I don't know. I don't know if that's a, her on the day or not. You know,

I mean, just that looks so terrible at the jury. Right. Um, I don't know where that came

from. Kind of saying stuff out of order there. So their withering cross of her with the prosecutor

focused on was two things that, uh, she just kept doing leading questions saying, trying to

paint that this mom hates the middle child girl, just hates her. I didn't know where it was coming

from, but she's like, you were really mad at her. Right. I mean, it really pissed you off

when you saw that phone, right? You were enraged at her. Right. I mean, you said that you're having

problems with her because you know, on the stand, she's like, Oh my, you know, middle girl is good.

Or my, my oldest is good. And my little one is just little, a charmer. But yeah, we're, we're

having problems with a middle child. I mean, I just, you know, she flipped, not doing her homework,

bad grades. Other ones are, you know, I mean, I'm like, when you're talking, I'm like,

so how are your kids' grades doing? Oh, excellent. But not middle one. So the prosecutor

pounced on it, trying to make it seem like my client just detests her daughter rather than

it's just a normal parent having a middle school kid. Okay. So then, uh, so that was like the her,

that was like the big highlight of her cross. And then second it was, um, oh, so you said that

you, you work in a salon, right? So you must cut hair, right? So you must use scissors, right?

So would you say that you can manipulate your hands in any manner?

Ooh. Yeah. Would you say you have strong hands? And then in her closing, she was like,

and you heard her say that she uses scissors all day, every day and she has strong hands. So that

means she could make a closed fist or any kind of fist and it's still going to hurt. And you're

like, are you kidding me? Like, that was like your genius move. That was like $150,000 to law school

right there. And that's when Evan realized it was her second jury trial.

Jesus. That's the thing is like, some of them are such good soldiers like that. I would never take

it. If I was a prosecutor, I'm like, this is a bad, like when you looked at it and you saw I can win

this case. Like they don't often look at these cases and say, I'm going to lose this case. They

just go, I'll take it to trial. Like they seem so gung ho to take dog shit cases to trial. And you're

like, what are you talking about? So Evan, a lot of times we try to ask our guests, um, why they

became public defenders. Um, can you share with us why, why you became a public defender?

Yeah. So I'm single and, um, no, I get this question a lot and I've, I've come up with,

okay, we can edit that part out. Why did I become a public defender? It's a good question. Um,

I think like you could, I like, you know, I went through the interview process and I had all these

like stock answers, but I think what I like to share is this one time in, in sixth grade where we were

having, it was, uh, Dr. X's, um, you know, party where each person had to bring, um, food from like a

culture that they had done their country report on. All right. So I brought like, you know, Austrian

strudel and we had all this food and Josh Johnson, God damn it. So who you can name Josh Johnson?

Josh Johnson, who I love, um, had like too many servings. Okay. Like he, he went for seconds,

one seconds is on your strudel. No, like I think it was on Chris McNary's French toast, which was dope.

Props Chris McNary's. So he bought French toast from France. Um, no, it was just in the style of France,

you know? Okay. Dale bread. We're talking, you know, none of that like cinnamon toast crunch,

French toast cereal style. Um, so, so Josh takes seconds and Dr. Mendel yells at him. Okay. So

we're all done. We go back to our seats and then Josh is like missing. Where's Josh?

And so talking to me, I was like, where's Josh at? Where'd he go? And then like slowly behind the

piano in the room, cause he was the musical theater teacher. Like Josh arises with like a third plate

of food and he just like stands up and like, he's like, I told you that you weren't allowed to have

more. Okay. Cause you had to save it for everybody and make sure everybody got some. And like, he's

yelling at Josh and Josh is crying. And I remember just like getting up and being like, you know,

you can't yell at him. He didn't do anything wrong. And like behind me, Andy Schiller's like,

yo Evan, man, it's not worth it, dude. Like sit down. And I'm like, no, you did wrong. And, uh,

he's like, all right. I've been like, you know, I'm not mad at Josh anymore. I'm mad at you now.

And I just remember like being like, you know, okay. I sat down, whatever. And like, I guess

I'm in trouble. And then later on my mom picks me up and she got to pick up the other kids and drop

us all off at home. And I told her, I'm like, Oh, like this is what happened. She's like, well,

you, you better apologize to Dr. Mandel the next day. And like the next day I go, I'm like,

fuck that. I'm not apologizing to him. So I just kind of feel like, I don't know,

since I was like little, I kind of wanted to like stand up for the underdog and it kind of like

snowballed there. And I could tell a lot more stories about it.

Wait, nobody else, nobody else can get food. And you were like, that's not right, man. Because

the rest of us are being deprived of food and our right to have fucking French toast. How many plates

of French toast did you have? He was being prosecuted for a bullshit crime, right?

He was being prosecuted for like putting food is just like, no, no, that's just like, you know,

it's really, it's like, look back in your life, public defenders and start maybe seeing these like

weird moments where you like defied authority or stood up for somebody or like rooted for like,

you know, the Patriots in the last football game. Cause like, am I right guys? Philadelphia?

I don't watch football. Sorry. That was just like me trying to be fine.

That was opposite actually. I got it. See, yeah, you're like, I rooted for the Patriots,

the underdog. And I'm like, wait a minute. That's like Josh Johnson.

Yeah. So this guy is, uh, getting his third plate of fucking French toast. Yeah. Delicious French toast.

No, no. I mean, I, I had to drop out of college because I, um, probably, you know, I got, I got a

wrong diagnosis of bipolar disorder. And then I, I did too many like, um, what's it called? Antidepressants.

And then I had to drop out of school and I was in like a mental hospital for two weeks and then I

didn't have a junior year. Um, and then, you know, it's like, so then I graduate on time.

I finally get like my head straight medication wise. I'm like, Oh my God, like a 4.0 my senior year

where before it was just like hard. And so then I, you know, start teaching after school and then

volunteering at nonprofits. And I landed at this nonprofit called mental health advocacy services,

where I could like do work in the morning and then meet my students after in the afternoon.

And like, I just learned about, I just saw like doing intakes. Oh, I can help you with your SSI.

Where are you living? I'm homeless. Well, why? Well, I just, you know, I just got out of twin towers.

You kept hearing that, right? And so the executive director, um, this cool guy named Jim Price is like,

well, maybe you should work county council. You're well, so then I wanted to go to law school.

I'm like, this is for me. And I keep volunteering there. My 1L year, my 2L year, like hundreds of

hours that I've worked there. And he's like, well, you should work for county council your, your first

summer. So I do that. And I work for county council and department 95, the mental health civil

commitment court. And that's where I see the public defenders for the first time. And I'm like,

yeah, that's what I'm going to do. Like that's, that's the, the role for me in this situation.

And so then, then I just did all my internships and my second year and I was a post bar court.

I was just like, I'm a public defender. What did you see the public defenders in 95 doing that you

liked? Uh, arguing that, um, you know, the, so principally what's called the Reese hearing.

So a Reese hearing, um, in department 95 is where somebody, um, is being forced to take medication

against their will. Um, but, um, a judge has to override, um, basically like their will has to find

like they're incapable of even deciding whether or not they can take medication. If they're capable,

they can refuse and they don't have to take it. And I'm kind of on board with that because I think

these medications a lot of time are just like chemical handcuffs. They're fit, they're chemical

restraints. So the public defender would just, you know, make sure that that call was being made

correctly. And I really respected that. And a lot of times they're just being like, no, you guys are

just, you're just saying he's crazy for crazy sake. And that, uh, psychiatrist rapport is flawed in

X, Y, Z ways. That was cool. I liked that. Um, and then you just quickly learn, I mean, I knew what

public defenders were in general. Yeah. Um, you know, I love to talk and be on podcasts. So, right.

You know, if you're a ham, public defender, ham it up. Um, yeah. Well, thanks, Evan. Thanks

for being on the podcast. You're welcome. Appreciate it. Good job, buddy. All right. Am I a friend

of the pod? You are a friend. Oh, we can't take that, that God damn it. Yeah. You're my friend

of the, of the resistance of the dismissal and acquittal. Oh yeah. No, of the dismissals and

acquittals. Yeah. Wait, DNA. DNA. Oh, it's in my DNA. Oh, friend of DNA. Yeah. Friend of

the DNA. There you go. Sounds good. I like it. All right. All right. Thanks for being on

the show, man. No problem. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of another

not guilty. Shout out to Daniel Mark, creator of A and G's original theme music and our audio

engineer, Chris Adams. And guess what? We have another not guilty story coming your way

next week because we public defenders fight injustice every single day in the American criminal system.