No Felony, No Murder – When the State's Case Trips Over Itself

What's up, my fellow A&Gers? We've reached the end of another season of Another Not Guilty, as this is the last episode of the year. I just want to put it out there that next year we are looking to grow and expand the podcast. And if you'd like to be a part of it, then please reach out to me at anothernotguilty@gmail.com or contact me via the website at anothernotguiltypod.com. Thank you.

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The DA's office goes over the case. They present the case to the grand jury. And as you know, grand jury proceedings are secret. I don't know what happened in the grand jury proceeding. I have asked and tried to find out through people I know in the DA's office. Of course, I do not know. What I do know is that the grand jury came back with a true bill against my client and his girlfriend with the counts, those eight counts that I discussed.

Four counts of felony murder and four underlying felonies for each felony murder.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore. Here, along with my fellow public defenders, presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not-guilties public defenders get on a daily basis.

In an unjust criminal system.

With a deck stacked against us.

Not Guilty.

Not Guilty.

Not Guilty.

Not Guilty.

Not Guilty.

Recording. All right, great.

All right, all right, all right.

All right.

What's up?

What's up?

Another Not Guilty.

Oh, whew.

Yes, I like that.

We got the JBG here today coming in, picking up the intro.

Okay, okay.

All right.

Take over.

Go ahead.

Hey, what's up, everybody?

I'm here again, co-hosting.

It is my favorite thing in the world, and I'm so honored to be asked back.

Guys, we got Jackie here as the co-host.

She's out there, out there on the front lines.

Jackie, Jackie, how many times have you been quarantined in this pandemic out there in the courts representing our clients?

Oh, my God.

You've been quarantined so many times.

It's kind of ridiculous.

Woo.

Woo.

Yeah.

I know.

Well, we got to keep it going for all our fans out there to let them know that the fight's still going on and that we're still here and we're all in it together.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So thank you for co-hosting today.

Thank you for having me.

And today's guest is a dude all the way in Georgia, a former public defender.

Actually, no, he's a bar panel lawyer.

Oh, all right.

Yeah.

He's a conflict attorney, I think they call him out there.

Well, he takes over all the cases that the public defender can't handle because of conflicts of interest.

Yeah.

All right.

Those guys get some pretty interesting cases.

Yes, they do.

Let's give a call and see what's going on.

All right.

This is Billy.

Billy, how you doing?

This is David from None of the Not Guilty.

Hey, David.

What's going on?

Just hanging out.

Nice.

Waiting to talk to you guys.

All right.

Well, hey.

Hey, Billy.

What's up?

Hey.

Is that Jackie?

Yes.

This is Jackie.

JBG.

I think I've heard your voice before.

All right.

Nice.

But yeah, guys, today on the show is Billy.

Can I say your full name?

You may.

Okay, guys.

We got Billy Olson all the way from a defense attorney all the way in Georgia.

Billy, why don't you introduce yourself or say hello to the A&G world?

I will say hello.

My name is Billy Olson.

I am an attorney, criminal defense lawyer in Athens, Georgia, the classic city, and honored

to be on the show.

I've listened to most all of the episodes and I love it.

I love listening to everybody's stories.

Great.

And how long have you been a defense attorney for?

Can you tell us a little about your career?

Yeah, absolutely.

I started out as a public defender about 14 years ago.

Then I was a public defender for just about a year.

And then I was an assistant DA here in Athens for about two years.

And then I've been in private practice for about 11 years.

Why'd you switch?

I got arrested actually when I was an assistant district attorney.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I was, I'd been an assistant DA for about two years and I was out one night and I allegedly,

I don't think it was allegedly.

I did.

I stole a hot dog from a hot dog vendor.

And I, the police officer came up to me and asked me why I had stolen a hot dog.

And of course I told him I had not stolen a hot dog.

And he said, well, why do you have mustard and ketchup all over your shirt?

And, um, that was it.

It was over.

So I was, uh, yeah, it was one of those things that, uh, you know, front page of the paper,

uh, you know, kind of made the Atlanta news.

And, um, but ultimately it was for me something that, uh, was a blessing that had happened.

And I had been struggling with, uh, alcohol and pills for years.

And, uh, so I went to treatment.

I got, uh, help.

And then, uh, fortunately I was hired by my now wife to be the staff attorney at a local

nonprofit here in Athens called the Athens justice project.

And, uh, which was set up to help people that cycle in and out of the criminal justice system

due to mental health issues and addiction.

And so that I took that job.

And then shortly after that, the public defender's office in Atlanta, we have a statewide public

defender system here, um, offered me a contract to, uh, do conflict work where, you know, when

the public defender's office here in Athens can't represent, or the surrounding areas can't

represent somebody because there's multiple defendants or they other reasons, then they conflict

those cases out.

So I became one of those and I still do that work today.

So that's one of these cases we're going to talk about today is one of those cases that,

you know, I was appointed.

And, uh, so I do a lot of, you know, appointed work and, and, uh, yeah, so that's kind of

my story.

Um, and what a story it is.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, welcome back to the defense.

You know, we, we accept you back with open arms, you know, I know you strayed for a

little bit and two years, only two years, you know, and I've been back in the game down for

11.

So I'm on the right side.

You're probably even a better defense attorney having become a prosecutor now.

Yeah.

I think I've tried, you know, yeah.

I picked up a few things they were trying to do.

Well, all right, Billy.

Well, glad to have you on the show today.

And, uh, you reached out to us a couple months ago and you said you had a nice, not guilty

to share with us.

So why don't you tell us about this case?

What are the charges?

So the charges were, uh, four counts of felony murder.

Um, and then there were, uh, one count of a, uh, violation of the Georgia street gang terrorism

and prevention act.

And then, um, three other felonies, uh, kidnapping, uh, robbery and false imprisonment.

Um, those were actually conspiracies to commit those three felonies.

So the four felony murders were predicated on those four other felonies.

So what are the facts of the case then?

The prosecution.

The facts are the case.

I'm sorry.

Let me try.

What's the prosecution alleging happen?

Yes.

The alleged facts.

Yeah.

Let me put it this way.

The prosecution brought this case to the grand jury, but essentially, as far as facts are

concerned, my client was charged with his girlfriend.

Ultimately with those eight counts, four counts of felony murder, and then four felonies,

underlying felonies.

And the facts are, is that my client and his girlfriend and the deceased, those, the three

of them tricked the alleged victim to come to a gas station to commit the felonies that

the state obviously thought they were going to commit, which is either a kidnapping or robbery

or a false imprisonment.

Okay.

Okay.

And the way that they tricked him is they used my client and the deceased used my client's

girlfriend to, on Facebook.

And, and of course the, the alleged victim did not know the girl.

Um, but they had her contact this guy on Facebook and they, they were all in the same gang.

They were Piru because the guy had kind of had a falling out with the gang.

So they wanted to bring him to this gas station to either rob him while he was there or take

him somewhere and punish him for basically falling out of the gang.

He had basically fallen out of the gang.

Okay.

Allegedly.

Well, it's not allegedly.

This is what the state, you know, the state believed.

And so what they did is they had the girl, she starts flirting with him on Facebook.

She goes over to this apartment where he is.

She picks him up.

And before she had gone over there, she had dropped off my client and the deceased at the

gas station where they went and basically kind of went around the back and waited.

And she goes and picks up the alleged victim.

And then she says, well, I need to stop the gas station.

She pulls into the gas station to a pump and exits the vehicle.

And a lot of this is on video and walks into the gas station.

Once she gets in there, my client and the deceased basically come out from the side of the behind

in the side of the gas station, jogging, or I say the states that are running at the car.

And as they're approaching the vehicle, the alleged victim who's in the right front passenger seat

sees them coming, knows them, knows that they're out for him.

And he has a weapon.

And my client gets there first because the deceased is about 300 pounds.

My guy's short and skinny.

He runs around the back of the vehicle.

And as he's doing that, the deceased is getting closer to the passenger seat.

Allegedly, my guy is trying to get in the driver's seat.

And so the victim, alleged victim, in the front right passenger seat opens fire and shoots

and strikes the deceased.

Okay.

Got it.

I see now.

Okay.

Now, the deceased turns and runs.

And the victim gets out of the car and chases after the deceased.

And there's a video of this.

And you can see, and it is, it is, when you watch this video, it's just, it's, I don't know what the words are, but he, so you can see it's like silhouettes.

And he's chasing him and shooting at him in the back five, six times, I think.

And then takes off running.

And then takes off running.

My client stays on the scene.

My client stays on the scene.

His girlfriend stays on the scene.

The cops come.

There's video of my guy and the police laying there with the deceased as he's dying, saying what happened.

You know, that the police ask during this time as he's dying, you know, was this gang related?

Yes.

What gang you in?

Um, my client is making statements, obviously, you know, saying, you know, we ain't got, you know, we know the guy, we've got no smoke with him.

We were just here to talk to him.

But, you know, of course my, well, I should say it from the state's point of view.

He lied about, um, how they got there.

He said they just ran into him.

And so essentially my client, his girlfriend and the deceased, um, well, of course my client and the girl were, were charged.

Now they did a manhunt for the shooter, the alleged victim.

And so they're chasing him all night long.

They finally find him and he's arrested as well.

Okay.

So all three, and they don't arrest my client there at the scene.

Okay.

He's, he leaves eventually.

The shooter is arrested.

He's sitting in jail.

The girl that my client is with his girlfriend, she's not arrested.

So she stays out and they start investigating.

And they take statements from my client.

They take statements from his girlfriend.

Obviously the deceased has passed that, uh, late, you know, shortly thereafter that evening.

The, what statement are we talking about here by your client?

Uh, while he was, uh, while the investigation was going, they asked him to come into the state.

They asked him to come into the station and get a statement.

And he did.

And he goes in there and says, you know, yeah, I'm in a gang.

I'm in, I'm in Peru.

Um, you know, and so he makes a lot of, uh,

He makes the case.

I just, I'm just like, why did they do that?

Why did they just go and just voluntarily go to the police?

Can we just, you know, everybody just don't talk to the police.

Right?

Like don't talk.

Is that in the Bible?

Is that in their Bible?

I mean, come on.

It should be the 11th commandment.

Right?

You know, don't hurt civilians.

Don't talk to the police.

Yeah.

That's very funny.

That should be, why don't they put that in the rules?

You're right.

Come on.

Oh my God.

So yeah, he's in there in Peru.

And, uh, but of course he lies about that night and, and, and the events in that night.

And so obviously that was not good.

And, um, but ultimately he did show who he was in those statements, which I thought was

good that he was this really naive 19 year old small town kid that had moved to the big

city of Athens.

And, uh, and so I, you know, I mean, I think they saw him in that light.

Um, so I didn't put them up and, uh, you know, the state was damaging in parts, but not so

much in others because he never obviously says, oh yeah, we're going over there to kidnap

him, you know?

Um, and after they do their investigation, they hand the case over to the DA's office.

The DA's office goes over the case and they take the case to the grand jury.

They present the case to the grand jury.

And as you know, grand jury proceedings are secret.

I don't know what happened in the grand jury proceeding.

I have asked and tried to find out through people I know in the DA's office.

Of course, I know, I do not know.

What I do know is that the grand jury came back with a true bill against my client and his

girlfriend with the counts, those eight counts that I discussed, four counts of felony murder

and four underlying felonies for each felony murder.

They no billed against the shooter, except for they did come back with a true bill on one count of

possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony.

But they no billed the underlying felonies, which makes zero sense.

In this case, Billy's client is charged with felony murder, meaning the state has to prove that his client committed a felony

offense that caused the death of another human being, irrespective of the fact that his client didn't intend to kill anyone.

Here, the four felonies his client is accused of committing are conspiracy to commit a robbery, conspiracy to commit a

kidnap, conspiracy to commit false imprisonment, and a separate felony count of violating the Georgia Street Gang Act.

For Billy's client to be guilty of felony murder, the state needs to first prove that his client is guilty of at least one of those felonies.

If he's not guilty of the felonies, then he's not guilty of felony murder.

So, all right, so it's the felony murder rule.

They're saying your client did not necessarily intend to kill his buddy, but his buddy ended up dying while they were committing a felony.

And because of that, he's being charged with murder because he intended to commit a felony.

Correct.

Somebody died from that felony.

So it's the felony murder rule, which varies from state to state.

Right.

They just know that they intended to do some, they intended for him to come to the gas station.

And so they're, they're sort of implying some sort of malfeasance by that.

Uh, so they're saying it's a kidnap or they're because they were going to take him somewhere against his, without his consent.

So that's, they're saying conspiracy for kidnap.

Uh, and then the, the false imprisonment would be what that he like, uh, surrounding him in a car surrounding him.

Okay.

Okay.

Generally you see false in prison, right?

When somebody like, if you lock somebody in a closet, you don't let them out or you restrict their movement or something like this kind of unusual to see it in this scenario.

But yes, that's what they were going for.

I think the real theory was, is that they were going to get in the car, force them, you know, to go with them in this vehicle and taken somewhere.

And so, so what, what facts did the government allege constitute to the robbery?

I mean, I think a lot of it was weak, but the robbery was real weak.

I mean, um, you know, obviously they never got to the point of being able to rob him of anything.

I never got him in the car.

Um, and so, you know, I think that was just something that they, you know, they were going to take money from him.

Um, you know, a gun, I, I honestly, I, you know, that was one of those, um, and obviously the jury didn't find it either.

But, um, I think the real argument was that they were going to take him somewhere and either rob him, you know, cause there was some, you know, there was some, there was some testimony about him possibly owing money to the gang or owing money to these guys.

So that was part of it too.

Is this one of those classic cases where the DA makes some charges, they don't quite have the facts to support the charges.

So they bring in a gang expert to say, like, be something trading experience.

It's going to be a robbery.

They're going to take something.

That's what gang members do in this situation.

They take stuff.

Is that.

Yeah, there was.

Yeah, there was definitely that.

And it was, there was some, there was some evidence that he, that this guy had not re that.

He had gotten jumped by another gang and they had taken money from him.

I think in that he didn't do anything about it or he didn't want to fight and he didn't fight back.

So they, you know, we're going to, you know, teach him a lesson basically.

And he had basically absconded from the gang and was on the, like, he was running from him.

He had been in Atlanta.

He had been trying to hide from the gang.

And so, you know, the States was trying to say that our guy, you know, my client and the deceased were acting in their gang, you know, as gang members, they were going to teach their fellow or, you know, I don't know if they were supposed to jump him out or whatever.

Right.

They didn't know, obviously, but their idea was that they, these three guys were all in a gang together.

One of them had a falling out and they were either going to rob him or do something to him because he had had a falling out.

You know, though, this theory is, is sounding kind of, I'm going to throw everything against the wall and see what sticks ish to me.

I mean, that.

Yeah, they, yeah, definitely.

I mean, there wasn't a clear, you know, idea.

And that was, you know, I mean, that was a big problem in their case.

And we knew right away.

I mean, this was a scary case to try because you definitely saw the kind of just injustice of this from the get go.

I'm sorry, did they catch the shooter?

Yeah.

That later that night, early that morning.

And he was arrested.

Did the shooter make a statement to the police?

Absolutely.

He did.

And he was, he was smart, man, because he sat there and immediately was like, this is self-defense.

These guys were out to get me.

And I should point out too.

And I guess some things are coming back to me, of course, but like, there have been some prior, they had some videos of like, when these three guys, I mean, they were all friends.

They knew each other.

They're gang members, you know?

And so they had video of a fight between like the deceased and the shooter when he got jumped in, you know?

And obviously, I'm sure, you know, jumping in is when you get initiated to the gang and they basically beat the shit out of you.

Right.

So, um, there was some video of that and it was just like, guys, this is like, you know, you watch the video and if you know what's happening here, it's like guys playing out in the backyard.

You know?

I mean, literally, it's not like they're beat you up to when you, you're have a concussion and you have to go to the hospital.

I mean, it's, I don't know.

It's almost kind of like grab ass shit, right?

Like they're just, you're jumping in.

It's, I don't know.

So, and then they tried to use that, right?

Like, but there was also evidence that, that the shooter was, was genuinely scared of these guys that were coming out.

He knew they were coming after him.

He was scared.

He said that he's like, he was carrying, you know, heat because of it.

And he, he knew that his gang wanted him.

Okay.

And he was at, and he was very like in his statement, he was right away.

I mean, he's like, this is self defense.

This is like, they were coming after me.

He was scared of my, for my life.

I mean, he's saying that stuff.

He knew it.

All right.

So that's, that's what, that's what the shooter said.

He said he was self defense and he was scared.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

What?

Now, why did your client actually got in the car or was about to get in the driver's car?

The driver's seat?

He never got in.

Yeah.

He was.

And why did he not, why did the shooter not shoot your client then?

Like what was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, because, okay.

The shooter was in the passenger seat to begin with and they were coming from that side.

So he's turning and looking at, he sees two people, one of which gets there and starts going behind the car.

And the other one is still coming at him.

So I think his focus was simply still on the guy that was still coming.

Well, the other important piece of this was our client, my client and the deceased, they didn't have any weapons.

Oh, okay.

They're, they're running at this car, but they clearly it's on video.

They don't have any weapons here.

The state's trying to make this picture of like these scary gang members just coming to kidnap this guy.

And it's like, dude, they're at a gas station.

It's 11 o'clock at night.

It's well lit.

You know, these guys know there's videos like, and they're running at this car.

Now they are jogging.

So that could be, but at the same time, it's like, they're not pointing a gun.

So Billy, you get the case, you get, you see all these charges.

You read the police reports and tell us what you go from there.

What do you, what do you, what are you thinking or seeing?

I'm thinking what the fuck just happened?

You can edit that.

I'm sorry.

It's okay.

It's all good.

All good.

I mean, really, I'm like, what the, and, and so, yeah, no, I go meet with him.

I, you know, I usually, when I meet my clients first, I don't delve into the case very much.

I just kind of want to establish, you know, get to know him, establish our relationship.

He was a kid that came from a small town in South Carolina that just recently moved to Athens, knew his, I think it was a cousin that was actually at the university here.

And this is a kid that didn't grow up really around gangs or anything.

He met some people quickly in Athens that he got involved with them really quickly.

And cause he didn't know anybody, you know, he, he, to him, you know, and a lot of these guys, they belong to a gang, not necessarily to go commit crimes, but it's, you know, for them, it's just having buddies and, and hanging out and feel accepted and all of that.

And so he starts meeting these guys and, um, you know, the next thing he knows, here's what he's sitting there facing felony murder.

He can't get out on bond and his life's turned up.

So I mean, literally that's how this kid was.

I mean, it was crazy.

How old was he?

How old was he?

He was 20, 21.

Yeah.

So we're young.

And, you know, he's working at, um, McDonald's and, you know, just trying to figure himself out.

It's one white town.

And so, you know, small town kid, like, can you tell us what he said?

Or are you, I mean, cause did he testify at trial or is that kind of, he did not.

Okay.

Okay.

But what did happen is that his co-defendant and his girlfriend really right here at the

last kind of second decided to enter a plea, an offered plea, meaning he doesn't have to

admit guilt or she didn't have to admit guilt.

But basically you say, you know, an offered plea.

I mean, you know, there's enough, if, if I were to go to trial, I believe there'd be enough

evidence I could be convicted.

Therefore I'd like to enter a plea without admitting guilt.

So she does that.

She got, how much time did she get three?

No, no, it was a, it was an open plea at that time.

Okay.

And so there was a cap on it.

I can't remember what the cap was.

I think it was like 10 years or five years or something, but she had to plead guilty, um, to

some of those charges and plead guilty, obviously to felony murder.

But, um, and this is, this is the testify at trial, right?

That she has to plea and then give up the testimony in trial.

And so the testimony she gave, because of course they both, my client and her lied.

And, you know, this was all, it wasn't a setup.

She actually knew this guy and she had dropped off my, you know, they just lied.

Okay.

And so she came in and told the truth.

This was a setup.

They, you know, that my client and the deceased.

Um, the deceased had, you know, formulated this plan to go get him.

Um, and that it was gang related.

And, and that's what they were.

Now she never did say, and it was important.

She never said that there was a place.

She did not say, could not say that they were going over to rob him or kidnap him or take

him somewhere, you know, or do anything like they had a plan.

And I think the evidence was they had a plan to go to the gas station, but there was no plan after that.

You know what I mean?

Like, I think they were going over there to talk to him and say, Hey, look, you need to come see us.

We got some stuff.

We got to figure.

I don't know exactly what it was.

Okay.

But they were, they were bringing them over there at a minimum to talk to him.

They certainly didn't expect him to start shooting.

Cause if they did, they would have brought a gun.

They would have brought a gun.

That's right.

Yeah.

Good point.

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So, um, then what do you do in terms of prep, prepping the case in terms of, uh, what are your, what are your goals at this point?

Well, my biggest concern right away was the gang, um, element to this.

Why is the gang element or the gang charge and the gang enhancement, the most concerning part for you at this point?

Well, to me is, as far as the jury's concerned, because the state is going to sit there and say, gangs are bad.

They're a problem in our community.

These guys are in a gang, something bad happened.

You got to convict them.

Right?

Like, and so that's my concern is that they're going to come in there and say, these are gang bangers.

A guy died because, and, and they need to be punished.

Right.

Everything, everything you see on TV is true.

And then we're going to bring in all these, we're going to bring in all these police officers with all these experience, all this experience about gangs.

And they're going to tell you about how horrible gangs are and how dangerous these people are and how they're criminal organizations and how everything they do is a, is a, some sort of like code.

And, and they're just super, super scary people.

And yes.

Scary.

And, and organized.

There's foot soldiers.

And it's almost like the military.

Oh, absolutely.

These kids with no direction in their life.

Absolutely.

They're just.

And they follow orders and everything.

Yeah.

Just everything they do.

Because it's, it's not like, I mean, and so I, we, I actually, even in this case, in the, in the evidence, they had taken my, my guy's gang, you know, Bible from, you know, he had it all written out, all the rules and everything.

And it's, you know, in those rules and, and I imagine it, y'all seen them.

And it's like, it says in those rules, do not do anything in public.

Do not do anything against civilians.

You know what I mean?

Those are the rules of the game.

Do not harm civilians.

That was one of the main things I wanted to make in jury selection.

I asked every juror.

I said, have you personally ever been affected by gang violence or gangs at all?

And every single one of them said no.

Right.

And that's, that's the type of person that you would like to have on the jury, right?

Right.

And then there wasn't a, one of them that said, oh yeah, I've been affected this one time.

None of them.

And so I, of course I use that in my closing.

It's like every single one of you said, you've never been in the state wants you to hear.

Send this guy away for the rest of his life because he's a, he's in Piru.

So what did you do to, to combat the gang enhancement in terms of preparation?

I searched for a gang expert actually.

Okay.

Um, and I actually spoke with a guy up in Chicago.

When you say Chicago, are you talking about like a police officer expert?

No, no.

He, he was a professor.

A real expert.

Okay.

Yeah.

A professor.

Oh, professor.

Like a guy with a college degree.

Oh.

Whoa.

An actual expert.

That to talk about like subcultures and things like that in America and the history

of, uh, communities.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Interesting.

No, I didn't end up doing that, but I certainly learned a lot, you know, but I wanted to hear

other people's thoughts of the facts of this case, you know, as far as from the gang perspective.

And that was one thing I learned.

This isn't necessarily how gangs operate.

And then, uh, what about what's next in your case in terms of investigation?

Well, okay.

So one of the other things I did in preparation was meet with the family of the deceased.

Okay.

Um, and in fact, I knew the deceased sister, not from anywhere.

I knew her from the community.

And so one thing I wanted to do was, and I brought the sister in and the family and meet

with them.

They were disgusted at the DA's office.

Like they couldn't believe what was happening.

They couldn't believe the guy that shot and killed their, their family member was, was walking

the streets of Athens.

Right.

Right.

Okay.

And, you know, I said, I told the family a lot because I, number one, I wanted them

on my side of the courtroom during the trial and they were, you know, and I also was going

to, you know, I, maybe they would testify to some things that they knew.

So I talked to them, but their theory was that, and they were also upset with my client too.

Okay.

I mean, and so their theory was, is that, and they heard in the streets that, that basically

my client and another guy had set up this whole thing with the shooter because they all

wanted the deceased dead for something else.

So it got a little crazy.

Oh.

All right.

So then, I mean, we're about to start a trial as, and when did the, and the co-defendant

is the girlfriend, right?

Correct.

So when did you find out that she took a deal and now is going to become a state's

witness, so to speak?

Turned state to everything.

Yeah.

I think it might've been Sunday.

Was it Sunday or Saturday, Jenny?

I think it was that weekend.

Okay.

Before the trial.

She, she decided to plea.

Okay.

Yeah.

It was like that weekend.

Oh my God.

All right.

Before the trial.

But I wasn't that concerned about it because I, I wasn't going to tell the jury that this

wasn't a plan to go to the gas station.

Like, you know, and that's all she was going to testify to is that, oh yeah, we lied.

We were going to trick him to get him to the gas station.

You know, I never was going to go into court and try to present this case otherwise.

So Billy, then that that's not your defense.

Then what is?

Yes.

Let's, let's get to the meat of it.

Yeah.

What's, what's going on here, Billy?

I mean, the defense was, is that they, there is absolutely no evidence that they were going

over there to kidnap, rob him, you know, or falsely imprisonment in any way.

Had they been going over there to do anything, they would have been packing heat.

They wouldn't have brought him to a public place where there's well lit there's videos.

It doesn't make any sense that they were doing any harm to him whatsoever.

Um, you know, and it's not illegal to go confront somebody in front of a gas station over some

disagreements, whether the gang related or not.

So you were attacking the underlying felonies is what you were doing in this case.

Okay.

Yes.

All right.

Cause you don't have felony murder without felonies.

Right.

Right.

What's, what's the first word in felony murder?

Felony.

Right.

Yeah.

So, you know, in the case I felt was weak on that end, because they did not really have

any evidence that pointed to any of those three things they say that those guys were going

to do.

Not even from the co-defendant who pled guilty.

A big advantage that I had by her deciding to plead guilty was that I got to cross examine

her and I got her to admit one of the reasons that she decided to plead guilty was because

she didn't want to risk being convicted of a felony murder because that would be an

automatic 30 years in prison.

So that allowed the jury to know what the sentence was on felony murder.

Whereas they never would have found that out otherwise.

Yeah.

Cause we're not allowed to tell the jury that don't convict them because he could do 30

years to life on this charge.

They're not allowed to consider that punishment.

You cannot say anything about punishment.

Right.

But in this situation, it allowed it.

And I thought that was incredibly huge for us because there was no way under these facts.

Those, those jurors were going to send this kid down the road for 30 years based on what

they heard.

You mentioned before the thing you wanted to keep out about the, the flight.

You said that you didn't want to characterize him moving back to his hometown as flight.

Yeah.

I mean, you don't want them to be able to argue that he left Athens cause he's guilty.

Right.

Right.

You know, of crimes.

And so I, you know, they weren't able to get into that hole, the GBI or the FBI went

and picked him up and transport him under a warrant, you know, all that.

I mean.

So you, so you kept all that out then you get the judge granted your motion to exclude

evidence of him being indicted or.

Yeah.

I can't remember if we had to go that far.

The DA just agreed to it.

A lot of stuff in this case, because I knew the DA well enough that we were able to work

some things out pre trial without even really having, I mean, I think we put them on the

record before the trial that, Hey judge, we have agreed to this, this, and this, you know,

which is nice when you can do that with a DA, you know, instead of having to fight ridiculous

battles that, you know, the outcomes are going to be just so you get it on the record.

Um, so we didn't have to do a lot of that stuff.

I mean, I know over here in California, there's an actual jury instruction.

The flight is that the itself that tells the jurors that you can consider if there's evidence

that the defendant fled the scene that you can use that as consciousness of guilt.

Yeah.

Do you have something like that over there in Georgia?

We do.

And that's why we took care of that on the front end.

Like I didn't even want that coming in.

When the shooting happened though, your client stayed on the scene and helped out his friend

that was shot.

So he actually, he stayed at the crime.

He stayed at the scene.

Right.

Oh, he's on video.

Yeah.

I mean, he's distraught.

He's like.

So did you ask, did you ask for the jury instruction?

If he stays at the scene, that's consciousness of innocence.

Yeah.

We should.

I should have drafted one.

Actually.

Does that exist?

A pinpoint.

Yeah.

But we're going to get it.

We're going to put one in.

That's a great point.

Yeah.

That was very helpful in the case.

I mean, here, I could argue that this idiot that shot Adam, you know, he, not only does

he run, but then he starts running from place to place and, and knowing he's going to get

arrested.

And then when they find him, he's immediately proclaiming his innocence without any emotion.

Whereas my clients on the scene, literally distraught and crying.

And, and so there was that whole thing I could use.

Like, you know, I mean, it was just two, two different reactions to what had happened.

And, and it was, you know, I think the jury could see that too.

All right.

Well, let's, let's talk about a jury selection then.

How, uh, tell us that, how did that go for you?

Well, you never know, man.

Juries are so hard.

I think like to try in that short amount of time to really figure out who they are and

who you're getting.

And, you know, you do the best you can.

I, I, like I said, I wanted to address that a gang issue.

I wanted to try to get them to trust me and who I am and what I'm saying.

And I think it went well.

The interesting thing about it was, is that the one, one of the jurors that I had a whole

lot of concern about ended up being completely on our side.

And the one juror that I was so sure about was the one juror that was trying to get him

on the felony murder, you know, and, and, and it's just like, okay, you know, I mean, I

thought I had this really liberal kind of, you know, the guy had an earring and, and just

totally like, you know, cool and great guy.

And I loved him.

And the other guy was this, this guy from the, you know, like Boston or New York or something

and loved the, you know, so, but it, you know, I feel like when I first became a defense attorney,

I was taught all these things about the types of jurors you want.

And this is a bad juror and these are good jurors.

And then now I just have no clue anymore.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just all been thrown out of the window.

It's just been burned too many times though.

Yeah.

Like this type of person has burned me and this type of person has come through.

Yeah.

I just go, I don't know anything.

Yeah.

You don't know.

You don't.

I mean, so.

And then, so, I mean, I still get clearly the gang is the big issue during your jury selection.

You don't want jurors to hear gang and then just automatically vote guilty.

So you want to make sure that they're open, that just because someone is in the gang,

doesn't mean that they're a dangerous person out there trying to commit crimes or anything

like that.

Right.

Is that sort of, you just want to make sure people can put that aside and just look.

Sure.

And I think.

Yeah.

And I think I just might've had a couple that knew some people that were in a gang

and, you know, it was like, Oh, are they in prison for murder?

No.

I mean, you know, like.

So he said, are they in prison for murder?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Are they serving time in Rikers right now?

You know, probably not.

Um, but I, so, but yeah, that was kind of my main focus.

There was, was the gang.

Of course, you know, it's the typical, like, are you best buddies with law enforcement every

day?

And you know, that sort of thing.

But, um, I think we got a pretty good jury, but see, we're lucky in Athens because this

is a college town and it's, it's quite liberal.

And so we have really good juries here.

And then you said you got along with the prosecutor pretty well.

I feel like that's kind of like your approach or demeanor with being a defense attorney.

You just seem like a guy who tries to get along with people to the benefit of your client,

of course.

Right.

Do you have a general approach?

Yeah, I do.

I definitely do.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Do you want to go into your style a little bit or are we just picking up on that?

Well, I try to do that with the jury as well.

You know, like I, I think as a, you know, I'm definitely somebody who wants to be liked.

So I, I, uh, you know, I think I definitely, I'm not one to use a bunch of big words and

try to act like a lawyer.

Um, cause I don't think of myself.

I mean, you seem very, you seem very down to earth, you know, when you talk very calm,

very friendly.

And, uh, yeah, you don't come off like, yeah, you're not trying to do to like be, be above

people or be better than somebody or talk a big game.

So maybe cause you've been through a lot yourself, right?

You have your own experiences.

Yeah, maybe.

Or I just, I honestly, I don't like lawyers that try to be all lawyerly.

I mean, I just, I, it's just kinda, and you're, you're sitting there in front of 12 people

that don't know the courtroom, that don't know this process.

And I didn't know it either 15 years ago, you know?

And so if you're getting up there and you're trying to use all these, I just don't think

it's effective, you know, especially when you have a DA across from you and this, this

guy wasn't, he's kind of down to earth too.

But when you have one of those DAs, it's just a jackass and gets up there and try to act

like the state, you know?

And it's like, you know, and you can come across as just kind of this humble, like, Hey,

look, I mean, I don't know.

I just, I, I, I like to think that maybe some jurors like that, I guess.

What, um, and how's it going with your client at this point too?

Like, I mean, he's scared of shit.

Okay.

He's scared.

He was up and down, you know?

I mean, he was scared and, and, uh, you know how you go on breaks and you're like, how did

that go?

And, and, and trials are just, you know, ups and downs and, but he's a young kid and he

incredibly naive.

And so it was, it was quite, you know, all of a sudden you're literally one day, you're,

you're just this kid.

And the next year staring down 30 years in prison, you know, it's crazy.

At this time, I'd like to thank and acknowledge Josh Calvin, Thomas Carr, and Lydia Lavrova,

our newest members to the ANG Patreon program for their support and contribution to the cause.

If you too would like to become a member and receive a shout out on an episode and or the

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Thank you.

All right.

Well, let's jump into the case then.

How did, how did opening statements go?

Yeah.

My opening, uh, my opening argument, I like to say it.

Yeah.

I, I, I told the, you know, I painted the picture of my client.

It was this, this small town kid who came to Athens and, you know, obviously told the story

and, and, um, that there wasn't, um, any plan here whatsoever.

And actually the person who's guilty of this, and I remember saying this is going to walk

through those doors and pointed at the entrance to the courtroom is going to come sit down

in that chair right next to you guys.

And you're going to watch a video of him chasing the deceased using his name, obviously pumping

bullets into his back as the guy's running away, you know, and they're just sitting there

like, really?

You know?

And sure enough, when they watch that video, I mean, it is, you know, it'll take your breath

away.

Like, cause it's so crazy.

It's a grainy, you know, gas station video, but you can see the silhouettes of these two

guys.

And you can see if it's almost like a, like a, like an old video game kind of something.

And they're just running and you see the arm outstretched and the weapon, and you can see

the bursts and you can see him falling.

And it's just like, that's, and you're, you're, you're coming after this kid over here, you

know?

And it, it, anyway, so I, I tried to paint that picture of my opening.

All right.

Well, let's talk about the, the evidence then.

How's the rollout for the state?

Who do they put up?

As usual, you know, they like to get into the officers and roll them in and you did this

and you did that.

And, you know, the, they, they, they played the videos and they, they, the importance of,

of where my guys waited and, and how the car parked and how she wait, you know, purposely

went into the station and then they ran out from the side.

And so they brought all, you know, basically they got in all the police report, all the

police officers testimony that were there at the scene.

They questioned my guy at the scene.

There was a lot of video, which was great.

Okay.

Video doesn't lie.

And so they got through all that.

And then of course the main part of this case was the shooter coming in and taking the

stand and testifying.

And he was a jackass and he was awful.

And he was talking about, you know, using every slang and, you know, running women.

It was just like, so when the shooter actually came in to testify, like what points on cross

examination were you trying to make?

Well, the biggest one is that he got out of the car and chased like the, the, the length

of time and the amount of distance he covered to continue to shoot this guy, you know, any,

anything that I felt would negate this, this self-defense claim that he made.

And literally like my, the deceased was wearing flip, like kind of flip flop type shoes, which

one of them was right outside of the vehicle.

Literally he had turned so fast.

He tore through his flip flops to run away.

Okay.

Wait, wait, wait a minute.

They rolled up to the scene and this dude is wearing flip flops and this is a kidnap, a

robbery and a, and a, there you go.

There's another one right there.

Show that picture.

This is great.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

So he ran out of, he ran out of his shoes to get away.

So that guy in self-defense.

Okay.

Then got out of his vehicle.

It started, he didn't, it wasn't a direct line.

Like he went and, and, and, and I made sure that, you know, okay.

So then you ran how many feet this way around this tree over and then started shooting again.

You know, the first shot was from the car.

There were several that were way later and I didn't have to do a whole lot to be honest

with you.

Cause he was so pathetic on direct examination.

And did you, what about the prior relationship?

Did you bring up the, the being jumped into the gang and the video?

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, these are all, these guys were all friends.

Oh, and I, and I, you know, you, I brought out the fact that he, um, I think he had some

prior arrests that he had, you know, nowhere to live, that he had been running around scared

of other people, um, that he was constantly carrying a weapon with him, that he was paranoid

that, um, you know, I mean, he was just a mess.

I mean, he was a mess.

Going back to the first part before the shooter testified, you said a bunch of police officers

testified.

Was there any points on cross-examination you were trying to make with the police?

My guy stayed his reaction in the video is willingness to cooperate.

Um, okay.

His demeanor issue, the locations of the vehicle, the location where my clients were, you know,

those types of things.

Um, the main officer, the detective went last.

Okay.

And he was the gang guy, right?

Oh, no, no, no, no.

No.

The gang expert.

No.

Well.

Did they call him as an expert?

He was the detective that had all the experience with gangs.

Oh, so they're expert.

It's okay.

Go ahead and say it.

They're expert.

Yeah.

Okay.

Right, right, right.

Yes.

The white, the white pudgy cop that, you know, came in and talked, sorry.

I mean, no.

Yeah.

But he was, yeah, he's there to be, like I said, he's there to testify that, that this

whole crime, that this felonies were committed for the benefit of the gang.

Right?

And so how, how did he, how, how did he make that connection or how did he convey that

to the jury?

How was, how were these crimes for the benefit of the gang?

Well, you know, the gang's got to send a message, uh, to the others in the gang that

don't obey the gang rules.

And so, you know, when, when a gang member falls out, they got to correct them.

And that's what they were doing.

They were, they were gonna inflict, you know, whatever they had to do to, to this guy.

Because he had fallen out of favor with the gang.

And that's what gangs do.

And we can't have that in our community.

And his training and experience told him that that's what happened here.

They were gonna take him somewhere and either kill him or send a message to him, you know,

and take his belongings, right?

Like rob him, I guess.

What, what was this expert's, um, how did he get all of this information?

What was his training and experience?

I'm, I'm always curious and somewhat surprised and then amused at the, uh, level of experience

these gang officers have.

Well, of course he had gone through his training, right?

Okay.

The specialized training that he, you know, discussed in his direct.

The hours of, you know, gang training that he had undertaken.

And then, um, the years that he had spent in the, in the community fighting, you know, gang violence.

And, and, and did he talk about all, did he talk about all of the interviews or conversations

that he's had with former gang members and current gang members and how they openly tell

him about things?

Did he, did he talk about that?

Right.

I wish I had had you for cross, but yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, he, uh, yeah.

And he's a, the thing with this officer is, is that I, you know, I, I like him.

He's an honest guy, which was nice.

Um, so he didn't really try to embellish too much.

I mean, he's a, he's a, he's a good cop and a good detective.

And, uh, and so, you know, he didn't, you know, he could have come across a lot worse.

I've seen a lot.

Right.

All right.

You know, I will say, I got, I like this guy because I've dealt with him and he's an

honest, he's an honest guy.

I don't, you know what?

Um, so then how did you cross examine him then?

I just pointed out that the main thing was, is that, you know, in their own gang rules

that he's referring to that he brought up and, you know, they introduced the, the Bible,

what, you know, all these writings that they found in my guy's apartment and, and, uh, the

Jersey that he, the, you know, the black Hawks Jersey that he wore all that stuff.

But Hey, you, you're going to tell me that, you know, these are the laws, right?

This is what they have to go by.

And yet in those laws, it says, do not do anything in public.

Those were the things.

It was like, you're sitting here as the gang expert telling me what gangs can and can't

do.

And yet here we have a case that these guys are doing the exact things you're saying they

can't do.

They're not following what you're saying.

They should be following.

Um, and, and, and these guys really are also, maybe they're in the same gang, but you know,

they're also just, they're friends, you know?

Um, and, uh, certainly they could have been having them come to a public place to, to simply

say, Hey man, you need to stop, you know, fucking around.

So, um, what of all the felonies, the four, the four underlying felonies, which one do you

think they had the strongest case for the false imprisonment?

Okay.

And that, and that was them surrounding the car and restricting your, uh, the shooters

freedom to leave the car.

Right.

And I think because they were running up to the vehicle and, and you know, like it was

hard not to admit that they, you know, they bought them there.

Okay.

And then they run out from behind the gas station.

So they, I mean, I can't just say it was a meetup.

Like they were just going to say hello.

I mean, that would have sounded stupid.

So yeah, it was this idea that they were going to detain him for a little bit, at least

to talk to them.

So that was, yeah, I mean, that was their strongest art play was the, the false imprisonment.

Okay.

And then, so how, what are you doing to combat that?

Well, that a false imprisonment, and this is what I brought up was that a false imprisonment

is locking somebody in a closet, not letting them out.

Here we are in a public place.

Well lit place.

He, they never got a chance to do anything.

We don't know what they were going to do.

There's no evidence of what they were going to do other than to talk to him.

They didn't detain him in any way.

You know, he could have gotten out of the car, not open fire.

Cause I mean, this goes back to the whole, there's just not enough evidence or any evidence

of what they were going to do.

How did, um, and how did the girlfriend testify?

She, you know, she was nervous, scared.

I mean, she came across as being honest cause she was telling the truth.

And I think that helped because at the end she ultimately was not, she's like, there was no

other, like, they didn't have this big grand plan to do anything other than to get him there

and talk to him.

So that was my defense.

So yeah.

Cause I mean, so just, it's just funny how like, you know, the, the state or the government,

the prosecution is trying to say like, there's this whole elaborate plan.

We got a gang expert to saying that all these actions are to the, according to some hierarchy

of the gang and they're all organized.

And these are troops carrying out orders.

And there was a plan to bring this guy to the gas station because he used to be in a gang

and we have to follow gang code and this and that.

And really it's just like, yeah, we're just stupid kids.

Right.

We thought we would just bring them to the gas station.

We didn't think anything further of that.

We're just dumb 18 year old, 19 year old kids.

Our brains aren't fully developed yet.

That's about as it.

That's as far as we thought.

And one, and one of us brought a gun and killed somebody.

Yeah.

Cause it just got messed up.

I do.

I really think that that's about as far as they got with it.

I did.

That was a terrible case.

I'm sorry, prosecutors.

That was a terrible case.

So, okay.

So it looks like we're ready to talk about the defense case.

Is there a defense case?

There is no defense case.

Oh, okay.

Nice.

Doesn't seem like you needed one.

No, no.

So the defense rests, you don't put on any evidence.

Yep.

All right.

So the jurors are deliberating.

And then what happens next?

What happens next?

Oh, they were, they were out a while.

And they had a lot of questions about what if we can't decide on one and not the other.

And so there was all that guessing that goes on, right?

When they have the question on what does that mean?

And what counts are they talking about?

But we, by the time the, they got towards the end, we had a pretty good idea that they were

going to be not guilty on the felony murders, um, due to the questions they had asked.

Um, it was a matter of whether they were going to do a gang charge, um, you know, or some

charges, some of those four, one of the, or two of those four charges are not at all.

So we were a little disappointed then when the verdict was read and they came back and they found him guilty of violating the gang act along with the count, the underlying count of the false conspiracy to commit a false imprisonment.

So, let's talk about this then.

So he's not guilty on, on all four felony murders, right?

No, he was, they were hung on the felony murder that involved the false imprisonment.

Or, or actually I should say that they hung on the felony murder that involved the gang, violating the gang act.

Okay.

Okay.

So not guilty on felony murder, robbery, not guilty on felony murder, false imprisonment, not guilty on felony murder, kidnapping, or conspiracy to commit those.

And then he's also not guilty of false imprisonment, not guilty of conspiracy to commit robbery, and not guilty of conspiracy to commit a kidnap, right?

No, no.

Guilty on conspiracy to commit false imprisonment.

Okay.

So, so there are two counts he was guilty on, and then they hung on the felony murder because there was only one juror that really wanted to convict him on that felony murder.

And there were times when those jurors would come out with a question that they were pissed off people.

I mean, visibly pissed off jurors, because this one guy, the guy that I liked, the guy that I really wanted, was wanting to convict him of felony murder, and the rest were just getting fed up with this guy.

And so instead of not guilty on that felony murder, there was a fight going on.

I mean, it would get loud back there.

And so at the end of it, they did a, they hung on that one.

So it was 11 to one.

11 to one.

The felony murder.

Yeah.

And so that kind of sucked, but.

He was guilty of the, of just, of just being a gang or committing gang acts?

Being, being in a gang, he was guilty of being in a gang and furtherance of a, or in committing a conspiracy to, to falsely imprison someone.

Oh, right.

Okay.

Okay.

And so then he got a 20 year sentence to do the first 10 years in prison, which he'll end up doing hopefully three or four years total.

Whoa.

Okay.

So your client was already.

All right.

So your client has already been sentenced.

Not right away.

He was sentenced about a month or two later.

And he got 20 years.

20 years probation, first 10 years in confinement with credit for time served.

He'll parole out hopefully under five years.

Yeah.

Okay.

I can see why you're disappointed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And how'd your client, how'd your client take it then?

The judge reads the verdict and he's of course, so stressed out.

He hadn't eaten all day.

We tried to get him to eat.

Yeah.

It was late into the evening.

He hadn't drank anything.

We tried to get him to drink.

He was just so nervous and scared.

And so they read the verdict.

And by that point, I think his brain was just mush.

And so he was really confused too, as to what happened, because he's hearing hung, not guilty, not guilty, not guilty, guilty, guilty, not guilty.

Right.

And he's like, what does that mean?

You know?

And so the jurors all leave behind, you know, come around, whatever, go behind, go out the door.

And he's still standing.

He's still standing.

He starts shaking.

And Jenny's kind of holding him.

And I'm kind of standing there.

And his body is just trembling.

And he's losing it.

And as soon as they walk out, we're trying to, you know, then you can kind of talk.

And once the jurors get out the door, and of course, he's just, look, his eyes and his body and his face, and it was just awful.

And the families leave, one side of the courtroom leaves, and then the other side of the courtroom leaves.

So we're talking several minutes here.

And he's continually just, and I'm trying to explain to him what just happened.

I'm trying to explain what the charges were, that it's okay, it's gonna be okay.

And by the time everyone leaves, and the deputies are now up with us, around us, getting the chains out, and he just falls out.

And he crumples to the ground, and it's convulsing, almost shaking.

And it was just terrible.

And I mean, I just think of it now, and it makes me just awful.

And, you know, those are the things that, you know, it's just hard.

And so we wake him up, and we get him some water, try to get him to eat some, you know, and the deputies are very nice.

And everybody's trying to, you know, and we get him on his feet, or we sit him up, obviously, and for a while, and try to get some water and food into him.

And we get him to his feet, and he goes, you know.

And the family's there, and they, you know, we're out just outside the courtroom, and obviously we talk with them.

We didn't have sentencing, so we didn't know, right?

And I tried to explain to him, here's what your maximum could be.

But he couldn't really, you know, he was having a hard time.

So I went out the next day, obviously, and he was much better.

He was still scared.

But at the same time, he had beat a murder charge.

So I think by the time I saw him, everybody in the jail was like, you beat a murder rap, you know?

And so he was kind of feeling better.

And so by the time we got to sentencing, I had been able to meet with him enough to get him to understand that he was likely going to prison.

It was a matter of how long.

He had already almost had two years up, so it wasn't going to be anything crazy.

Like, you're going to be okay.

But think about, I mean, you know, he was looking at life for that.

Like, that's what's amazing.

Like, he got to the point where 12 jurors were able to decide whether he was going to serve life or not under those circumstances.

And I don't think it should have come to that.

You know, I don't think it should have gotten by the grand jury.

And that's what, to me, is troubling about this case.

This whole case is troubling.

I don't know.

I mean, I'm just a spectator here or a listener.

Yeah.

Oh, it is.

You know, imagine how you feel if you were the deceased's family, you know?

And that guy's running around in, you know, the streets.

Oh, yeah.

They spoke at sentencing, too.

They were not helping with the DA's office.

The sentencing of your client.

Correct.

What did they say?

They used it as the opportunity to tell them, tell the court and the DA's office that they cannot believe that the shooter, I can't even call him an alleged victim.

The shooter was free.

And they also said that they didn't think that my client and the other girl who was also sentenced, that they should get a lot of time.

Although they did say they think they should get some time, you know?

Yeah.

And so that played into it as well.

Because they felt that our clients were partly responsible for the death of their loved one, you know?

Had it not been for them duping this guy and bringing him to the gas station, their loved one is probably, you know, although he was a part of the plan.

So, you know, but they felt like it was my guy's idea to do it.

Of course, we didn't believe that either.

But anyways.

I mean, I know your client went down on something, though, but that was a lot.

And you still did a pretty bang-up, awesome job.

Yeah.

Just the way you sized up the case.

Well, I appreciate it.

You know, at times it doesn't feel like that, of course.

But doing this work, you see just some really, it's just, it's crazy.

But I will say we're lucky here in Athens because we've got such a strong public defender's office.

And I think that people don't understand how important it is to have people like y'all, public defenders, that every day go out and fight for these people, you know?

And that was another thing I loved when I found your podcast, which was totally by luck.

I just was searching podcasts that I could listen to because I'm a criminal defense lawyer, honestly.

And it came up.

And so I started listening to them.

And I was like, you know, in doing this work, you realize, like, how important it is that people that do this work, how important it is.

Because there are people that can be treated very unfairly in this system.

Cool.

Well, thanks, Billy.

And, you know, this leads us to our last question, which we ask all our guests.

You were a public defender, then you went to the DA's office, and then you realized that you were meant to be a defense attorney.

And you came back one way or another, subconsciously.

That's why you sold a hot dog that day, because you knew you belonged back with us.

So why did you become a public defender?

It was meant to be.

Yeah.

That's for sure.

You know, you weren't that hungry.

It wasn't that great of a hot dog.

So it's a hot dog, so.

Actually, that hot dog, I don't remember eating it, but it was delicious, I'm sure.

Because I was completely, you know, wasted.

But what drew you to this work?

Why did you want to become a defense attorney and represent indigent people accused of crimes?

It's kind of a story, because I went to Georgia here in Athens, but after I graduated, I moved out west.

I moved to a ski town in Aspen, Colorado, and I was a ski bomb for four years.

And so when I moved back to Georgia, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

And ultimately, I decided to go to law school.

And while, after my first year of law school, after getting really shitty grades, I went and interned with the only place I could, which was my brother, who was practicing law in Atlanta and nothing to do with criminal offense.

He was doing medical now and all this other stuff that I had no interest in, but I could do something.

And while I was there that summer, he, for some reason, at the time, I didn't understand it.

But now looking back, he crazily agreed to represent this kid that was charged with armed robbery in Atlanta.

And, of course, he didn't know anything about criminal law, so my job was to basically find out what the hell happened.

And it was a false identification case, but ultimately, they said this kid robbed a steak and shake, which is a diner, a 24-hour diner.

I don't think you have them out there, but so I had a video of a camera, a video camera that I took in of our client.

His nickname was Hulk.

And it just so happened in this case that he was in the same car and matched the same description.

It was one of those cases where it's like crazy how the facts, like how the circumstances line up, but it wasn't him, okay?

And he had been found like right after the robbery in the same kind of car, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And so I took a video of him and brought it into this lady who had gotten, you know, locked up in the cooler and tied up and all this crazy stuff held at gunpoint by this guy who wasn't wearing a mask.

And so I'm going up there to this restaurant in the middle of the night trying to get this lady to look at this video so she could tell me whether or not it was him or not.

She wouldn't do it.

She was scared.

So I kept going up there, kept going up there.

Finally, she's like, all right, you know, I got to know her by this point.

We were hanging out like friends.

And she's like, all right.

So I show her the video.

She's like, that is not him.

And so I was able to take that and take it, you know, to my brother who took it to the DA and they dismissed the case against this guy.

He's facing armed robbery.

He's facing armed robbery.

So that was my beginning.

Like, I was like, all right, I like this.

You know, I like this work.

So that's, I went back to law school.

I interned at the PD's office.

And then my first job out of law school was public defender.

So that was kind of what got me into it.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Thanks for coming on the show today, Billy.

It was nice meeting you.

It was a good chat.

Nice to meet y'all.

Appreciate it.

Yeah.

Thanks.

Thanks for tuning into another season of another not guilty.

We're going to take a little break now, but should be back in the springtime with more stories straight from the trenches.