The Good, The Bad, But Not Criminal – When the State Brings Back a Mustache-Twirling Villain

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The DA walks the four person through kind of the facts that they want them to be and like the four person's got his charming Irish accent and he's so calm and he's making jokes and he's just this, you know, guy you would totally want to grab a beer with. And then all of a sudden I stand up and I'm out. I've morphed into trial me, which is much nicer, right? Totally different voice, different person. And you can just see like all of a sudden it's like this dark cloud.

cloud just descends over his face. Like he's just like this bitch is back. Oh, great. Like, great.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore. Here, along with my fellow public defenders, presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not-guilty as public defenders get on a daily basis in an unjust criminal system.

With the deck stacked against us.

All right. Welcome back, everybody, to Another Not Guilty. It's your boy, Davey D. here, bringing you the freshest not-guilties that this nation has to offer.

Co-hosting with us today, guys, we have a special, special co-host. She's a dope-ass public defender from San Francisco. You remember her from the previous episode. We have Olona back with us today. Olona, how are you today?

Doing well. Hanging in.

Yeah, dude. You had such a great, you know, you were the star of our last episode. The fans loved you. I got all these emails. They said they wanted to bring Olona back.

And I was like, okay, I'll bring her back as a co-host. So here you guys go, Another Not Guilty World. More Olona. Olona, thanks for being a co-host on Another Not Guilty.

Thank you for having me. It's good to be back.

Yeah, and how's your client Carlos doing? You know, he was charged with, he was brutalized by the police with a vindictive prosecutor. You walked him, and how's Carlos today? How do you do since the trial?

Well, I think he lasted, was it eight days, Martina?

I think it was seven. Seven or eight.

He was so happy. He was so excited to get his Not Guilty that he went out and celebrated for about a week, and then he picked up a new case.

Holy smokes. Oh my gosh. Is that why we have Martina here today as our special star on Another Not Guilty?

That's how I got the case.

Martina, wait, were you on the co-host? You were co-hosting last time, and now you're back here as the guest of Another Not Guilty.

Excited to be back.

But we also have Matthew here today with us, and he's...

I second-chaired the trial with Martina last November.

Last November.

Or November 2019.

Okay, okay. So, all right. So, we have Martina as our guest today. We still have Carlos as the client. And go ahead, Martina. Pick it up where Alona left off. What happened to Carlos?

So, Carlos, after, you know, a week of celebrating his big win in Alona's case, ended up picking up this attempt murder case.

Now, everybody can kind of agree once you hear the facts that there was no universe in which this should have been an attempt murder.

You know, this really was kind of what we talked about last time with that district attorney who just had it in for Carlos.

You know, clearly just a vengeance project.

What did he exactly allegedly do?

So, for Carlos, they were alleging that he, you know, tried to murder these two people.

And it stemmed from Carlos opening his window, throwing what can only be described as pebbles out of the window at a man who was standing on scaffolding.

And what turned out to be, you know, it was largely just kind of bumping this guy with a rope.

But the way that the prosecution was spinning it, you would think that he was, you know, strangling these, like, two people with this rope.

And that he was crawling up onto this four-story scaffolding and trying to push the people off.

So, just kind of wildly misconstruing the facts right off the bat.

Is it, is the report read from the perspective of the people on the scaffolding?

Like, like, who are these people?

What are they doing?

And then why does Carlos supposedly throw pebbles or rocks at him?

This is in a neighborhood in San Francisco, which is really kind of gentrified.

And there's tons and tons of construction always going on to the older houses.

So, in the building next to his, and he's been in this building forever, rented it, doesn't own it.

But he's been there for decades, I think since the 70s.

So, the building directly next to his, there's scaffolding and there's construction workers.

And they're putting up the scaffolding and making just a ton of noise.

And he's been celebrating.

And I think he probably was a little hungover.

So, at nine, he opens the window and yells at them to stop and then allegedly throws these rocks at them and makes some statements.

You know, stories kind of varied, as we found out over time.

And then he runs down the stairs, comes outside, and then according to the DA, he grabs a rope and tries to strangle one of the painters.

And that's basically the entirety of the whole incident.

Maybe, you know, three to five minutes in total.

So, all right.

So, he's next door is construction.

He opens up a window because they're really, really loud.

He throws rocks, says threatening statements.

What do you say?

So, everybody kind of had a different story.

Story changed over time.

There was two different attorneys on this.

And it was, there was a dismiss and refile.

So, we got a bunch of different statements.

But it was something to the effect of, you know, stop making all that noise or I'll come up there and kill you.

So, you know, threats about him coming up the scaffolding seemed to be consistent in all the statements.

Coming up the scaffolding?

Whether or not I'll kill you was actually said or implied or inferred on the part of the painter.

That largely became an issue at trial.

And then he runs down with a piece of rope and tries to strangle somebody.

Well, no.

So, he gets out of bed, goes downstairs, goes out the front door and grabs the rope that the construction workers had brought with them.

Okay.

And that fact that it was not something he grabbed from inside the house and was, in fact, their property was really important at trial.

How many workers were working on this property, by the way?

There was only two.

So, there was the one guy who was up on the scaffolding and then there was the Irish, Boston kind of, you know, heavy-accented foreperson.

Okay.

And they were kind of getting everything ready for other workers.

Now, the foreperson begins, he's the one that calls the cops.

Okay.

And that doesn't happen until after Carlos has walked away.

What, like, did your client get arrested at some point?

Oh, yes.

So, he goes back into his own house after, you know, he allegedly tries to strangle the complaining witness, the Spanish-speaking complaining witness.

He then walks back into his own building, goes into his own building, and then when the police come, they're there for maybe 10 minutes or so talking to the two people, the two construction workers.

And then they go, they try to get Carlos out of the house.

He says some hilarious things to them, which is all on the body-worn camera, you know, things to the effect of, like, you're going to fry, like, bacon, pigs, things like that.

And clearly, he's not a big fan of the police.

He knows the police officers, and they know him.

And they start really kind of just ramping everything up.

And, you know, their involvement, you can tell, like most of our cases, they've got their own kind of agenda.

Since they do know Carlos, it's even more kind of pointed.

But they start throwing attempted murder out there.

They start talking about, you know, Carlos having gang ties.

That's not true.

There's no evidence of that.

So they get involved, and he never comes outside.

He keeps telling them to go get a warrant, and he's not going to come out.

And then eventually, they arrest him later that day.

So, okay.

So we have attempted murder because he threw rocks at some – what was the attempted murder?

When he threw a rock at someone on a scaffolding?

Well, the attempted murder was the rope around the neck that they alleged.

And then was there criminal threats in the beginning as well?

The criminal threats had been on the complaint ever since the first filing.

In addition to the charges of attempted murder and criminal threats, Martinez's client was also facing several charges of assault with a deadly weapon.

All of those charges are considered strikes with potential prison sentences, and the attempted murder is a life charge.

Because these are felony charges, the defendant has a right to a preliminary hearing where the prosecution has to present evidence for each charge to which the defendant will be held to answer for.

However, if a judge improperly holds a defendant to answer for charges that weren't supported by the evidence during the preliminary hearing, then a defense attorney will file a 995 motion asking another judge to dismiss the unsupported charges.

Oh, okay, okay.

All right.

So, Martina, can we talk about how the prelim went?

So, Roberto did the first preliminary hearing, and that time, Carlos was held to answer on the attempted murder.

When I took it over, Roberto was going on vacation, and he had already started working up the 995.

The motion to dismiss the attempted murder charge, right?

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Yeah, and we were also addressing the 245A1, the assault with a deadly weapon, because that also seemed overcharged.

And so, when I get it, we're, you know, maybe three or so weeks away from trial.

I'm brand new to the office, and I took over, was going to argue the motion in front of one of the judges here, who, you know, he's one of the judges that we actually kind of feel pretty good about.

Not always on our side, but one of the judges that at least, like, listens to your argument, reads what you have to say.

So, we were in a pretty good position to start out.

Okay.

And how did it go?

How did the motion go?

It went pretty well.

What I noticed in the preliminary hearing transcript was the ogre had really hammered home in his argument at the close of the preliminary hearing about certain facts that actually were never testified to.

So, he's arguing that certain words were spoken, I'm going to kill you, and that those were being spoken while the rope was, you know, being pushed around.

And so, the judge at the preliminary hearing had really kind of focused on that.

It was the combination of the words and the act for her.

And so, I kind of just chucked everything that was in the motion, and I just kept saying, like, hey, look, like, that ogre, he definitely pulled a fast one on the last judge.

That was nowhere in the transcript.

And so, the judge that was here in the preliminary hearing was like, I mean, the 995 was like, yeah, you're right.

That actually isn't in the transcript.

Is this ogre the same ogre that was in Alona's trial?

Yes.

Same one.

Same prosecutor.

And was he present when the 995 was argued?

He was still part of the case at that point.

So, yes, he was none too pleased.

We already were not each other's biggest fans at this point.

So, there's always ongoing issues and drama with the ogre, right?

Always.

Always.

And, like, there's something for him that's super triggering about, you know, younger, I don't want to say, I'm not calling myself young by any means, but, like, you know, women in general.

And he just, it makes him crazy.

Like, he just ends up being so much more aggressive and irrational.

I've never seen anything like it, quite frankly.

I've never seen, you know, 12 years of doing this job, I have never seen anything like this man.

Did he call you creepy?

He said that the way I looked at him, shouted this out in a huge courtroom full of people, because I had walked up to him when he was speaking with an officer, and I was pretty sure he was coaching the officer to lie.

So, I came over and I was trying to stand and listen to what they were saying.

We walk into the courtroom, and in a room full of people, he was like, she's looking at me with her creepy eyes.

Oh, my God.

How is this happening?

Okay.

So, the 995 is argued.

The judge tosses the attempted murder, right?

Right.

And then, what about the assault deadly weapon charges?

Do those stick?

Everything else stands.

The 422 as well, so the criminal threats, as well as the assault with a deadly weapon, as for the rocks and the rope, that all sticks.

Okay.

And pretty quickly thereafter, we were sent out to trial.

Okay.

Now, before we talk about the trial, though, I want to know is, you know, obviously, at this point, you've had a chance to meet your client, Carlos, right?

Alona actually went out with me to meet Carlos for the very first time.

Yes, I did.

I introduced Carlos and Martina at San Francisco County Jail No. 3, E3-5, in San Bruno.

Okay.

And tell us about that.

How did that go?

Well, Carlos is not one, how should I put it, to easily trust.

So, there was a lot of combativeness as to the approach.

He really kind of justifiably felt like the whole system was against him and was pretty angry.

So, you know, I think as public defenders, that's one of the things that we kind of are used to, right?

Clients who are frustrated, frustrated with the system.

They kind of see you as part of it.

You kind of have to earn their trust.

Yeah, he felt very persecuted.

He felt extremely persecuted by the ogre.

Did you know what your defense was going to be at this time?

Yeah.

And, you know, I think sometimes it's, we have like kind of the sexier defenses, right?

You know, like the self-defense or something where it's really clean and easy to explain.

This was just kind of like, it's not what the DA says it is.

Like, it's just not that.

It's something, but it's not that.

Like, it's just not attempt murder.

It's just not assault with a deadly weapon.

It's just not criminal threats, right?

Like, it's just, it's almost hard to let some-

It's bad behavior.

It's bad behavior.

It's just not a crime.

That was the theme.

So, Martina, what kind of, the trial's coming up pretty fast in this case.

What kind of trial prep are you doing?

So, the only thing I really did was send out the video because we had found, our investigator

had found surveillance video that showed the interaction where Carlos had come out of his

house.

And that contained so many different things that I think were really helpful for the trial.

So, we did try to get that enhanced because it was from about, I don't know, I'd say a

couple hundred feet away.

Okay.

And what did the video show?

The enhanced version.

The enhanced version actually didn't do much good.

It just kind of cut in on it.

But what you could see is that when Carlos came out of the building, so supposedly, this

is after he made all of those criminal threats and threw the rocks that, you know, almost

caused the man to fall from the fourth story of the scaffolding to his death.

Carlos then allegedly ran out of the building, you know, angry and aggressive and approached

the painter because the two alleged victims were the painter and the foreperson.

Okay.

And supposedly, Carlos, like we talked about earlier, had grabbed a rope, approached the

painter and tried to put the rope around the painter's head.

And this was according to both the painter and the foreperson.

But what the video actually showed is that Carlos comes out of the building.

He kind of meanders back and forth for a little bit on the opposite side of a pickup truck.

So you can't really see what he's doing over there.

You can just see the top of his head.

And then he kind of goes to where the scaffolding ends, back to his door and then back to the

scaffolding.

And then he comes around to the front of the pickup truck.

The pickup truck is where the foreperson is seated and the painter who had been on the

scaffolding is a couple of feet in front of it.

And you see Carlos come up to them and he's closer to the painter and they're clearly kind

of arguing back and forth.

And then at some point you see something in Carlos's hand and then he just walks away.

That's it.

And what I thought was super interesting about all of that was that the foreperson during

all of this is just standing there casually with his like arm draped over the driver's

side door, watching this all go down.

He's just hanging out in his car, huh?

Really quick.

No big reactions.

Just watching.

So then, and then what?

And Carlos, you said he just walked away?

Yeah.

And, you know, according to the police report, it said like he ran back to his apartment,

you know, after he had like tried to strangle this man.

And then, you know, the video just shows like Carlos kind of pushes the rope in their direction

maybe or.

And the guy in the car is just kicking it.

He's just hanging out.

Just chilling.

He's got one, you know, foot kind of up on the, what is it?

Like the wheel well of the truck and his arms over the door.

And then you can see in his hand, he's holding a phone.

So I don't know about you, but if one of my coworkers was going to be strangled and I

had a phone in my hand, I'm probably going to call the police.

I feel like as public defenders, some of the things that when we look at videos, you can

tell a lot by the reaction of the other people.

Like when there's no sound, sometimes, you know, when the gunshot happened, because you

know, when everybody freaks out.

100%.

So the video looks, sounds pretty good for your case then.

Well, we thought it was.

They're saying that he tried to strangle the tire rope around the dude's neck.

Right.

So what was great about it is it, you know, if I'm screaming at people to, to leave, stop

painting and I'm upset and I want them to leave, I'm going to want them to take their

stuff with them.

Right.

So this is Carlos.

You know, my argument was Carlos was just picking up their stuff and like giving it back

to them.

Take your stupid rope and get out of town.

Take your shit and get out of here.

Take your rope and you just go.

Which would make sense with the way that he was behaving, right?

He's like pushing it in another direction.

He walks away.

Like this is not him trying to strangle somebody.

And what Alona said about, you know, looking at the reactions of everyone else around, I

forgot about it.

But there was another guy who was across the street watching it and he was on a motorcycle.

And it was interesting too, because he stopped to watch, but again, never intervened, never

got on his phone, never had that like moment of surprise that you would expect if somebody

was being strangled.

So Martina, um, when, wasn't there, uh, something about like when you got sent out to trial, maybe

the ogre was in a different trial or something?

Yeah.

He was in a trial with another one of our coworkers in a, uh, PC 69, um, resistance.

Oh man.

Yeah.

He loves us.

He does.

He does.

And I'm telling you, I was looking forward to doing the trial with him specifically.

I thought it was going to be hilarious, but I ended up getting up someone else who's now

no longer with the office, with their office.

All right.

Well, tell us about that.

You get sent out to trial and what happens there?

Once we get sent out now, we got a great pull on the judge, uh, the, the, that judge that

we got sent out to as an ex public defender, very smart, um, kind of low patience, you know,

it would have been great.

Him and the ogre would have just bit at each other's throats.

Um, this other DA that took over, who's no longer with their office also was probably

a good combination with that judge.

Cause he's just the kind of judge that likes people who are more prepared.

Like he's always going to pick the party that is more prepared and understands the law better.

Right.

So we were there and I was hoping that he would kind of push them to do the right thing and

dismiss.

He didn't.

We just kind of immediately started, but the judge would have dismissed, you wanted the

judge to dismiss, tell them to dismiss the case.

Yeah.

I thought he might, you know, agree with me that this was a waste of taxpayers dollars and,

you know, encourage that.

No, it brings a tear.

It never worked.

I mean, I could see a universe in which it's possible.

Things are funny up here sometimes.

And this just seems so silly.

Um, and we knew Carlos wasn't going to budge.

Right.

So when we're, when we're having our conference right before the trial, I'm saying, look, there's

no deal that Carlos will take zero.

Like he won't take a misdemeanor.

So if anyone's going to bend, it's got to be them.

I'm like, let's be honest.

No one was even scratched.

No one was harmed in this at all.

So I was hopeful.

But it didn't work.

Need the people of San Francisco to do the dismissal for you.

Right.

So what happens at trial?

The DA talks a big game that day one.

He's not going to dismiss.

There's no universe in which he's going to do that.

And then he comes in on day two and dismisses.

Oh, all right.

There you go.

Nice.

That's always a, that's always an interesting thing in your life.

And like, you're all ready for trial.

And then there's no trial.

I know.

Like a free day of whatever, you know, like, why did the DA dismiss?

He didn't really have a good answer.

I thought it was because he didn't want to try it.

He wanted the ogre to try it for him or something.

Maybe.

Yeah, but he couldn't put that on the record, right?

Like the real deal was that that DA knew, he already knew.

We didn't know it yet.

He had already gotten another job.

He had one foot out the door.

He didn't want to try it.

He pulled the, you know, the short straw and got forced out to do this.

So he just wanted out.

He was not going to jump the grenade for the DA's office on this.

No, he certainly wasn't.

And I think he just, you know, maybe went home that night,

decided he was definitely going to take the other job and, you know,

and did it anyway.

Because I'm sure that the ogre told him not to do it.

So, okay.

So the DA dismisses and what?

Carlos goes home?

Case, we done?

No.

Oh, gosh, no.

So our listeners don't know that they just refile him, you know,

like dismiss and then refile.

It just starts all over again.

Yep.

Too much of the apple.

Tell us about the dismissal, though.

What happened when the DA said he was going to dismiss?

And was there a discussion about the refiling with Carlos?

Oh, yes, there was.

Yes, there was.

So Carlos, at this point, is really on an emotional rollercoaster, right?

He's ready for trial.

He got the dismissal.

I had to explain to him because clients don't often know the two dismissal rule either.

So I had to explain, no, no, no.

That just means we're starting over.

We're going back to square one all the way over.

Now, Carlos is in the middle of the courtroom screaming at me, fuck that.

I'm going to fucking starting over.

I am not going to fucking do it.

And then so the judge decides, in his infinite wisdom, he's like, well, you can waive your prelim.

And you can just start after prelim, sir.

And Carlos says, that's what I'm going to fucking do.

I'm like, oh, God, no.

No, no, no, no, no.

So Carlos and I are just like openly brawling in court.

I'm like, you cannot give up your prelim, like just screaming bloody murder at each other until eventually I convinced them, okay, fine, you can waive notice on the refiling, but we're not waiving prelim.

I eventually won that battle.

Eventually, Carlos agreed to refiling and having a prelim.

What happened afterwards?

You guys go back into lockup and have a conversation.

Oh, my gosh.

This was the first moment I think I really saw, like, what a kind of complex man Carlos is.

Because after, like, screaming at each other, and I'm so embarrassed, right, I'm screaming in front of this judge who barely knows me and the DA.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, everybody thinks that my client hates me.

So I go in the tank and I'm like, fine, you're going back to Roberto.

I don't have to do this.

I'll be back from vacation.

That was the only reason I took – I just had this – you're going back to him.

And Carlos bursts into tears.

Like, so here is this big, long-haired, you know, buff native man who you never would expect to cry.

And he is just bawling.

And he's like, but you can't leave me.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh, Carlos.

And it just broke my heart.

I mean, that's Carlos for you, you know.

He just really has a total range of emotions at all times.

He's a very sensitive man.

He really is.

All the emotions at the time.

He's not afraid to express his feelings.

But, you know, the more – I got to know that about him, though, right?

So it was the first real moment that I saw that, like, he just gets angry sometimes.

But he also – he just feels things deeply.

And I think it really – it went a long way for me to understand how to talk to him and how to work with him and, like, what he needed, you know.

Like, it was –

That's just how he – that's how he expresses himself, right?

He's a passionate person.

Exactly.

And his interaction with the construction workers next door was just a passionate exchange.

Exactly.

I mean, that really is it, right?

Like, he and I kind of in the same way, right?

Like, there's times where I just get, like, excited about things.

And it might sound like I'm yelling, but that's just my voice.

And that's kind of Carlos, too, right?

He's expressive.

He's expressive with his hands.

He's expressive with how he talks.

And I just think it was a really good moment.

I might argue that was the breakthrough in your relationship that you needed.

1,000% it was.

Not to say there weren't challenging moments, and Matt can attest that there were more challenging moments, but it was a moment.

But, yeah, it was definitely the breakthrough.

Wow, Martina.

Thanks for sharing that challenging moment as a public defender.

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Thank you.

Why did you want to do the NotWave prelim?

Because if he does a direct file, then are you concerned about the attempted murder coming back?

Well, that was part of it, right?

Because we beat the attempt murder on the 995.

So, if you stipulate to the refile on the information, then is it the information post 995 or pre?

Because if you're actually looking at the document itself, it still had the attempt murder.

And so, the DA off the record tells me, no, no, we don't intend to refile the attempted murder.

And he kind of assured me and the judge of that.

So, that was one concern.

But the bigger concern, like everybody knows, is like you do a prelim different than anybody else.

And you want as many chances as you possibly can get when it comes to lay witnesses.

And I do things differently than Roberto, for sure.

So, I definitely wanted to get a, you know, crack at the two witnesses.

All right.

So, let's talk about the refile.

Take two.

Action.

What happens at the next prelim?

So, the next prelim, and I think this is, you know, I think for lay people or non-lawyers, when we say this, it sounds kind of distasteful.

But one of the things that I'll do during a prelim is I kind of really want to test the waters.

And so, I kind of turn on a certain persona, right?

Maybe not as pleasant or nice as I would be in front of a jury to kind of see how that witness will react to me, to my tone, to my questions.

And so, the foreperson this time testified.

Okay.

The guy in the car.

Right.

And so, he's the boss.

He's Irish.

From Ireland.

Heavy accent.

And he clearly does not like me.

He clearly does not like being asked questions by me.

He wants nothing to do with me.

And once I kind of sensed that kind of level of, like, disdain for me and my, like, you know, strong lady voice, you know, you kind of turn up the heat to see what he's going to do.

And it was clearly kind of getting under his skin.

And so, at one point, you know, I was asking him about the photograph because there was a single still photograph.

And he was like, well, I don't know.

It came from a video.

I'm like, well, interesting.

What video?

And so, we got into this whole back and forth.

Wait, what is this photograph you're talking about, by the way?

It's a single still photograph of what?

So, what you see in the photograph is the, and it's clearly taken from the perspective of somebody who's standing in or near the pickup truck.

But you see at the front of the vehicle, two men, and it's not their full body.

It's just kind of their upper half.

And you see the painter's head turned towards the camera.

And then you see Carlos, and you can make it out because you can see his arm tattoos.

But you can't really see his space.

But you see that he's holding what appears to be the rope in, you know, both hands, kind of stretched between two hands.

And it's making contact with the painter, maybe the back of his neck, maybe the back of his head, hard to say.

So, presumably, this photograph came from the foreperson, right?

Presumably.

But no one ever really discussed it.

It was entered as an exhibit during the first preliminary hearing.

And it was discussed by the painter.

And he was like, yeah, that was the moment that he was trying to put the rope over my head.

So, all right.

So, go ahead.

Tell us about this preliminary hearing, and you're talking about this photograph with the foreperson.

So, I'm trying to figure out where this photograph comes from.

And so, clearly, this painter is not wanting to answer my questions.

He's super irritated.

He's so, like, over being there.

And he's like, well, it just came from a video.

And we were asking him, like, well, what video?

I was like, well, the video that I took.

What?

So, did you take a photo?

And he was like, no, I pulled the video from, I mean, I pulled the photo from the video.

Turns out he had recorded the entire interaction, watched it after the fact, and then went frame by frame, selected a frame, destroyed the video, deleted it, but kept that one single photo and sent it to the police.

Ooh, wow.

Right?

Juries hate that.

So, I was like, oh, God, this is the best.

And then, so, when I was pressing him on the questions, I was like, so, why did you destroy it?

He was like, well, my memory was full.

I'm like, but you had to create.

So, you watched the video, and then you pulled the still frame, or the frame by frame, and then you saved that.

So, you actually used that additional memory before you deleted.

And he's like, that's not how phones work.

And I'm like, well, I think it is.

Can you tell me about your strong lady voice?

Is that what you said?

Yeah.

Can you use your strong lady voice?

Matt, what is that?

Martina, what does that sound like?

Can you do an impersonation order to give us a taste of your strong lady voice?

Are you asking Matt for an impersonation?

No, no, I don't want Matt to.

I was like, come on, he still has to work here.

Yeah, yeah, no.

I can tell you what she does.

She faces behind the council table, takes off her jacket,

forcefully puts her hands on the table, and then stares them dead at the app.

She does do that?

There's a lot of, with my creepy eyes, as the ogre said.

Um, no, it's just this voice, right?

I mean, maybe a little bit less nice.

Like, I can't even do it, right?

It's just, my voice is my voice.

It's loud.

Yeah.

It's when you get frustrated with a witness, or they're dodging the questions,

the volume comes up a little bit, and all politeness goes out the window.

It's much.

It is super condescending, I will say.

I can feel myself being super condescending.

Oh, tell me about how the video works.

Tell me about, oh, you didn't have enough memory?

Really?

Okay.

Explain.

That's not what I'm asking you, Mr.

Oh.

Oh, I know.

So, it looks like you were right in having the preliminary hearing,

because you got that juicy nugget from the deleted video.

Did you, did Carlos was, did you, like, turn to Carlos and was like, I told you so?

Oh, of course I did.

But would Carlos ever acknowledge I was right?

Never.

No.

That's so Carlos.

So Carlos.

So then what charges were left after the preliminary hearing?

After the preliminary hearing, this judge did away with the attempt murder,

and he said, I'm doing away with all the assault with the deadly weapons, all of them.

Okay.

He did hold on a felony criminal threat,

and I wanted him to make a factual finding that it wouldn't,

that the conduct that was described didn't rise to the level of an assault likely to cause great bodily injury,

and he said, I'm not going to do that.

So, he left the door open for them to file 245A4s, the assault likely to cause great bodily injury,

which they did, six of them, just to be spiteful.

Oh, okay.

So, now you have six felony assaults and one criminal threat as a felony.

Right.

So, all right.

Do we need to talk about anything else before we start talking about the jury trial?

Do we, is there any other questions we want to add, or do we miss anything?

Well, the only thing I would say is that during that, that those two months, probably before the trial,

you know, the DA on the case, the ogre, and I, our relationship had definitely degraded, if that can even be said.

So, at some point, he's decided he's not talking to anybody, and I think Ilona talked about this in her episode,

but he refuses to talk to us.

So, we could be standing in an open courtroom, you know, tons of witnesses, and you're like, when's our next court date?

And he'll be like, send me an email.

I'm like, could you just tell me, tell me the court date?

He's like, nope, send me an email.

And he'll be like, okay.

So, at this point, I literally would be standing next to him and being like, I'm sending you an email.

I'm standing right next to you.

I'm literally standing six feet away from me looking at you.

And you won't answer my question, but I just want to know when our next court date is.

So, it had gotten super tense.

But, like, I find this whole thing hilarious.

He, I think, found it less hilarious.

But by that time, the second trial rolled around, it wasn't like that time he was even engaged in another trial.

He just had somebody else stand in.

And it was never really explained to me why.

Oh, man.

I know.

Our viewers are so upset.

I'm so upset.

We don't want an ugger trial.

I feel like Martina was trolling him and was really effective at it.

And, like, I just, you know, I was never, like, she enjoyed it.

I just didn't get into it that way.

I was like, this is so painful for me.

I mean.

She's like, I love trolling him.

I don't know what other job I do, right, other than, like, this job.

I enjoy getting under people's skin.

So, it was, especially when I get a reaction, it was awesome.

Great.

Okay.

So, then, all right, let's talk about the second jury trial, then.

Yes.

So, we got sent out to the same judge that did the preliminary hearing.

And I got to say, at that time, the presiding judge knew what he was doing, right?

That presiding judge would always kind of orchestrate you getting sent out to the trial courtroom where he thought you belonged.

And so, the judge that I did the trial in front of was known for brokering deals, right, just making trials go away and just kind of being a very reasonable middle person.

So, I think it was very willful that we got sent to that same judge who knew the case, who knew the preliminary hearing, had kind of been vocal about how silly he thought this all was.

But the DA that had taken it over for the ogre was, like, in no universe going to do anything to upset him.

He was just one of the sweetest, kindest DAs I've ever encountered.

I mean, probably not in the right job or in the right profession.

So nice.

So, so nice.

Terrified of the ogre.

So, we couldn't get it resolved.

Does the ogre have some type of position in the DA's office?

Is he, like, a senior district attorney or is he a supervisor?

Actually, I'll take this one.

He got fired on the new DA's very first day in office.

That new DA being Chesa Bodine, a former San Francisco public defender who is now the elected district attorney of San Francisco.

Chesa also hosts a podcast, along with Rachel Marshall, another former public defender, now a progressive prosecutor, called Chasing Justice, a podcast about criminal justice reform through the lens of progressive prosecution.

Check it out.

Anyway, I digress.

So, all right.

So, you're at trial.

You're with the new DA.

You're with the judge that's good for brokering deals.

And what happens?

Obviously, Carlos isn't taking anything.

There's no universe.

And now, you know, we're another 60 days into this.

So, Carlos is justifiably even more angry about all of this.

And, you know, not all felony cases end up getting free filed.

And not all of them have 995s or motions to dismiss.

You know, so, Carlos has kind of been through the ringer, right?

If you can find Alona's trial, my two, all the kind of procedural, like, works that's going into all of this, all of the different court dates.

So, at this point, like, there is nothing.

If he might have been open to a misdemeanor resolution last time, he certainly is not now.

And he is pissed.

So, there was nothing.

And we started jury selection.

So, by the way, is Matt there now?

Matt's there now.

So, I was actually at another hearing for another client for this motion we had been working on.

I stepped out and our supervisor came up to me and just said, hey, I told you I'd get you on a trial.

Do you want a second chair, a felony trial?

And I said, yeah, of course.

And he says, okay, jury selection starts at 1 or 1.30.

And I looked down and it was 12 o'clock.

So, I got Martina's number, ran to her office, and started reading the file because it was on the desk.

And next thing you know, about an hour later, I'm at jury selection.

Okay.

Tell us about your voir dire then.

I think early on, I am a big proponent of getting your theme and theory out there early and hard and making sure the jury understands it.

You know, judges often call it, quote, pre-trying your case.

Defense attorneys will often tell you it is not pre-trying my case.

But I need to absolutely make sure that the jurors are going to be open to my defense, right?

Like, I'm not going to do a case where I'm saying, look at how ridiculously overcharged this is.

This isn't what the DA claims it is.

And I'm not going to be able to explore that with a juror and kind of probe whether or not there's somebody who's just going to take, you know, the DA's suggestion that these are the appropriate crimes, like, you know, at its face.

So, we very much got into, like, the heart and, like, the meat of the issues right off the bat.

Any particular moments or things you remember saying to the jurors, like particular questions or interactions?

You know, this was one that when I'm trying to kind of convey, even though there's serious charges, you want to be respectful, right?

Because jurors walk in and they feel that this is an important kind of legal arena.

But at the same time, with certain kinds of cases, obviously not homicide or rape or sex charges, you're going to want to create a very different environment.

But on a case like this, I wanted everybody to feel kind of, like, lighthearted and like this was ridiculous from the outset.

So, you know, we were definitely, like, cracking a lot of jokes and I definitely try to do a lot of, like, kind of self-deprecating humor.

And San Francisco juries are wild.

Oh, okay.

I mean, everybody in there was like an engineer, right?

You know, just like every single person in there either has gone to college, has gone to grad school, and they're, for the most part…

Dude, and those engineers, they go to Burning Man all the time.

I mean…

It gets wild.

It gets super wild.

I mean, no joke, though, probably.

If you were to do a drug trial in there and start asking around, they're going to know more than your expert.

But San Francisco juries, they're, like, super liberal.

So, you're really kind of dealing…

It was shocking to me coming from San Bernardino.

I'm like, wait, what?

You don't like cops either?

That's amazing!

I don't like cops!

All right, so tell us about…

You picked your jury.

Time for opening statements.

Tell us about that.

Opening statements.

I try to give a closing argument and opening statements every time.

You know, the rule is you're not supposed to argue, but I think we all kind of know I'm not here to just say the facts are going to show.

Like, obviously, I'm going to shoot my shot.

And so, for that, in this case, that really meant playing the video as many times as humanly possible.

Because the DA has just gotten up and given his whole statement about this, like, terrifying situation where this guy was on the scaffolding and he almost died.

And then the strangulation.

And you're like, cool story, but that's definitely not what happened.

Here's a video.

That we talked about before, you know, like the good behavior, the bad behavior, and criminal behavior.

You're going to see a lot of that maybe we wouldn't like, but you're not going to see any crimes.

And how do we know that?

Because the DA hasn't gotten you any evidence of this crime.

We went out and got this video.

We went out and enhanced it.

We brought in an expert.

They haven't shown you any evidence of a crime.

And so, that framing of everything.

And I think you slipped in a little bit of the gentrification things.

I don't know if I remember correctly.

I think you slipped in a little bit of that in opening as well.

And just that framing about everything set us up for the whole trial.

Dude, all right.

That's a great opening.

All right.

So, then how does the evidence roll out?

Who's the prosecution goes first?

So, what do they put up?

Typically, they do.

But because our, and this is like, if possible, I love doing this, taking an expert out of order.

So, because our expert wasn't available, we got to put them on first.

So, we started the trial with our expert.

And then we shifted back to the people's case.

There was a scheduling conflict.

There was.

Wait, are you talking about the expert for video enhancement or something else?

For video enhancement.

Yeah, we put Paul Endo on.

Okay.

Ilona's like, when you say expert, do you mean the video enhancer guy?

Yeah.

I love Paul.

Paul is like, he's my favorite.

I use, I've hired him a lot.

He's great.

I mean, it was maybe not the most riveting testimony ever to start the trial.

But I will say, Paul.

I wasn't sure if there was another expert in there.

No, no, no.

It was just Paul.

But Paul is amazing.

And as far as like a video enhancer expert goes, I mean, he's charming.

He turns towards the jury.

He works it.

He does great with what he can.

But he just went up there and he said, it was just like, okay, here's this video.

And I enhanced the video.

And then you just played the video a couple of times, right?

Sure.

But I mean, I'm also like trying to use it to be like, and I asked you to find every last little detail that you could and look at all the angles and see if there was any other way that there was any other like evidence of this.

Right?

So like, it was definitely a big show to say like, look, we did everything we can to get you the whole truth.

All right.

So then that's it.

That was the video.

You got to open up.

You got to take the wind out of their sails a little bit, right?

Because they're saying this big old drama of attempt or, you know, of a tiny rope around someone's neck.

And someone almost falling on the scaffolding.

This big, dangerous situation happened.

You're kind of like, look, here's the video.

This is what really happened.

Okay, DA, now you go with your version.

This is here.

Okay, here's reality.

Okay, now it's the DA.

Yeah, you go with your truth.

Right.

You know, and then there's always that moment where the DA's got to figure out like, do they use your video or not?

You know, and you can see like the DA's little wheels spinning like, do I ask her to borrow her video?

No, no, I don't.

No, I don't.

Right?

And so he ultimately decided not to use it and just kind of stuck with his game plan.

So he puts, I think he puts the four person on first and then the painter, which I thought was a bad move.

Right?

Because the four person was such a big personality.

And so clearly, like we talked about, kind of had this axe to grind with Carlos.

And in the body worn camera, he can really be seen telling the officers what happened.

And every time the painter tries to tell them a little like tidbit, he'll just interrupt, talk over, you know, he's like, oh, well, this is what he saw.

This is what he felt like.

So it was clear that he was like trying to kind of steal, you know, the show from the painter.

The narrative.

Totally steal the narrative.

Exactly.

But so, you know, the DA walks the four person through kind of the facts that they want them to be.

And like the four person's got his charming Irish accent and he's so calm and he's making jokes and he's just this, you know, guy you would totally want to grab a beer with.

And then all of a sudden I stand up and I'm out.

I've, I've morphed into trial me, which is much nicer.

Right?

Totally different voice.

Different person.

And you can just see, like, all of a sudden it's like this dark cloud just descends over his face.

Like, he's just like, this bitch is back.

Oh, great.

Great.

And from the moment I start asking questions, it's like he's hostile.

He's pissed.

He doesn't want to answer anything.

He's talking to the judge.

He's like, do I have to answer that?

And the judge is like, yeah, you do.

Sorry.

So, you know, there was just a visual, like, shift in kind of his demeanor.

And then we started going through, because I would ask him things like, well, you, you know, you really didn't let your coworker talk to the police, actually.

Like, every time the police tried to talk to him alone, you went with him.

And so I got to play all of those body-worn cameras videos and kind of showed that he was totally taking things over and changing the narrative and, like, you know, kind of ensuring that the police officers interpreted this as a much more violent event than maybe the painter ever would have said.

Oh, okay.

Matt, do you remember any interesting interactions with the foreperson?

Yeah.

One of the more ridiculous things I've ever seen in a courtroom.

So, as Martina is crossing him and just stumbling over his words, he's trying to think, his story's inconsistent.

You can tell the jury he's kind of losing the jury as well.

Eventually, we get to the point of him taking the photo with the camera again.

And Martina's like, so you deleted it and just kept crossing him and making him just, he didn't know what was going on.

At some point, he asked the judge several times, like Martina said, he asked the judge several times.

Do I have to answer that?

And every time it was like, yeah, clearly.

And then at one point when he finally got to admit that, Martina got him to admit that, I think this was the point where he finally admitted that, yes, I deleted the video, right?

He turns to the judge and goes, he goes, I want a lawyer.

Hi, she's trying to get me to say this.

I want a lawyer.

I mean, it is a crime to destroy evidence.

So there's that.

Martina, wasn't there also like a phrase you were saying like, oh, if you don't understand, let me ask or something about like if I could ask again or I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to be combative or was there something you would?

I can't.

I do always say, I'll say like, I'm so sorry.

Have I offended you?

If I've offended you in any way, I'm sorry.

But I'm just here to ask questions.

Because you're trial me so nice and confused why you're so angry.

Like, why are you so angry?

Oh, man.

All right.

Good.

We're off to a good start then.

The case is going pretty well.

Who's the next witness for the people?

I think the next step was the painter.

And that guy, you know, this is just like a genuine, hardworking dude who was up on a third or fourth story, you know, set of scaffolding that didn't have any railing.

Who got yelled at, you know, so it's like, okay, I get it.

If I was on that scaffolding and someone was throwing something at me, I wouldn't be thrilled either.

So this was not the guy that I needed to hard cross.

You know, I don't think I had a lot of questions for him.

Other than kind of getting him to go through the body-worn camera to show he never actually said to anybody that Carlos had said, I'm going to kill you.

And eventually we got to the point where he agreed with me that he was interpreting that from Carlos' actions of throwing the rock and that those words were never actually spoken.

And once I got him to admit that, I was out.

He went into the trial thinking that your clients threatened to kill him.

And then at the end of your cross, he was kind of like, you know what, maybe he never really said that.

And I was just swayed by the foreperson and the police officers into saying that.

Oh yeah, no, well, and he didn't even agree.

So he conclusively said, okay, I never told anyone he said that.

He said that conclusively.

So by the end, he's agreeing with me that he never told, that he, the painter, never told anyone that Carlos said, I'm going to kill you.

And we were trying to piece out where his belief might have come from, right?

Because I'm asking him, I'm like, look, it's reasonable that if you're up there that you might feel like he wanted to kill you, right?

And he's like, yeah.

I'm like, so maybe like, that was just how you were feeling, like you're feeling like you wanted to.

And that's what you told the officer.

He's like, yeah, that's, that's what I think happened.

So it's like, he had translated that feeling of intent.

Because at one point he said, well, he was throwing rocks at me while I was that high.

What else could he have wanted to do?

And I think that was kind of the key to understanding, oh, this is what was happening in his head.

He had shifted his beliefs into words.

The cross too, Martina, was you, you got into, you didn't see how big these were.

You didn't see how close, you never told them how closely the pebbles landed to you.

Yeah.

Anything about how hard he threw them?

Did he just toss them a little bit?

Or did he throw them with like, you know, some force?

Well, and the other thing too was that they said that he got them out of that planter box up front, remember?

And so these are like decorative little rocks that you put around the base of a tree and they're all different sizes.

So some of them were, you know, maybe two inches in diameter, but some of them were much smaller.

So like that, it wasn't like such a silly question.

Like if those were really the rocks that he was throwing, like some of them could have been as small as marbles.

So none of those rocks were ever like booked into evidence.

They didn't recover any rocks or take pictures of any rocks or pebbles to say that these were the items he threw, right?

No, I mean, can you imagine?

I mean, I think the cops knew like what they were doing.

They were, I think in their police report, or at least their like citation or when they were writing this up, I think in their heads, they must have seen the rope is the bigger issue.

Because they didn't, they took some, they took one single picture of the planter where the rocks allegedly came from, but that was it.

No one bothered to like recover a single one.

What did you get the painter to say about the rope incident then?

Well, and this came out at the first preliminary hearing.

Roberto got him to say at the preliminary hearing, he was like, well, describe what was, what was the feeling?

And he's like, well, he was kind of bumping me in the back of the neck with it.

And so Roberto was like asking him, like, where did you feel it on you?

Was there tension?

Did it go over your head?

So no tension, no over the head.

And he just kind of stuck with that at the preliminary hearing.

So I didn't have to really like make a big show of it.

But, you know, I got him to kind of agree with the word that like, it felt like a push.

Because one of the things I was trying to like lead them to say was, this is a push away.

Like you push someone away.

So he did agree with that.

All right.

So then who's, who's the next witness then?

The police?

The police officers?

Yeah.

And these guys, again, you know, these are the guys that showed up at this scene of this dangerous rock throwing incident with their huge, you know, less than lethal rifles out.

You know, there was like 10 of them and they all had their rifles out and they all knew Carlos.

And it turns into this just, you know, total, you would think that there had been like allegations of like Carlos shooting a gun or something, the way that they approach the situation.

But what was the point of their testimony?

Good question.

I mean, I think the DA, I think, screwed up because if anything, you know, he just kind of used them to maybe, I guess he was trying to maybe impeach his own witnesses a little bit to say like, oh, these guys did say that Carlos had said he was going to kill them.

But all it gave me the opportunity to do was play the body worn camera over and over and over again, where it can kind of be seen that they are, you know, doing all these things that we would prefer they not do.

Like they can't, you know, they were interviewing the foreperson and the painter together.

They weren't separating them.

They were engaging in leading questions.

So, you know, if anything, the DA's choice to put them on the stand just exposed them to weakness.

Okay.

So the people rested and that's it for the evidence?

That's it for the evidence.

The defense didn't put on any witnesses.

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

The 1118.1 motion.

An 1118.1 motion is a motion the defense makes during trial at the close of the people's case,

asking the judge to dismiss the charges that no reasonable jury could return a verdict of guilty for.

So during that, we kind of rolled out our same argument that we made both in the preliminary hearing as well as in the 995.

We're saying this is not assault likely to cause great bodily injury.

Because remember, now the deadly weapon is gone.

But it's a similar argument in the sense that this is just not the kind of conduct that rises to the level that we would say is likely to cause great bodily injury.

Oh, by the way, look at the fact that there are no injuries.

Like that in and of itself is a factor for the court to consider.

And look at the fact that you didn't hear any evidence of force, because it was force likely to cause great bodily injury.

And you didn't hear anything about the force that the rocks were thrown with or the force that he was pushed with the rope.

Pebbles, pebbles.

The pebbles, the pebbles.

Yeah.

And so the judge at that point agreed with us.

And, you know, it was one of those times where you win something and you're like, oh, my gosh, I can't even believe I won that.

I mean, I believed in my argument.

But for the judge to have taken that away from the DA, all we were left with was a single felony and one single misdemeanor of a simple assault.

So those six felony assaults that could have been a decade in prison are now rolled into a single six-month misdemeanor.

Wow.

Just misdemeanor assault.

And then what's the felony that's left?

The criminal threats?

The criminal threats.

Wow.

So feeling good after that, right?

Yeah.

Feeling pretty good.

But, you know, that criminal threats is the one that it sort of jumbles your brain sometimes as a defense attorney.

You're like, oh, how do I tell people that?

Because when we look at the elements, right, it's that a threat was made of great bodily injury or death.

And the person was in actual fear and the person who made the threat intended it as such.

Even though we had the painter admitting that he wasn't sure about Carlos saying anything about the killing, we still had all of those threats about the, if you don't stop banging on my wall, I'm going to come up there and push you off.

So it still was making me super nervous.

So what kind of case do you put on then?

Do you put on defense?

We don't put on a defense.

We just kind of get ready for closing.

All right.

So tell me about the closing arguments then.

So I, this is my first trial in the office, right?

And San Francisco is known for their long closing arguments, right?

Like Jeff Adachi, if you had done a 10-minute closing, would have fired you.

He's big on, he was big on PowerPoints.

He was big on longer, you know, thorough closings.

I come more from, you know, a school of thought of like, if it's a winner, I just get up and be like, yeah, I told you an opening.

You said what I said, you know, and then like sit down.

I struggled with, you know, things came out, I think, better than I had hoped or as good as I had hoped.

So I really kind of wanted to keep it short, but I also kind of wanted to do things in the spirit of the office that I had just been hired by.

So it ended up being a longer closing argument, but we replayed the videos and just kind of talked about it again.

But most of the research out there shows that, you know, your case is won and lost long before you get to closing arguments, right?

Like in some ways, excuse me for being crass, but closing arguments are essentially like defense attorney masturbation.

Like no one's really even like caring, you know, like you're just, it feels good for us.

We're like, I love this moment.

Like this is the stuff that like I started this job to do.

Man, dude, the last, the last, the last trial I did, I lost, but man, my closing was amazing.

It was amazing.

You get goosebumps, goosebumps.

But I can't tell you about, it won't be on the show because we lost.

But that's the thing, right?

Like I love closing.

It feels great.

But like the research just really says like, it's not that many cases that it makes a big difference on like the diet.

I think they say it.

The research even says that they've had their mind made up before the evidence.

Just opening.

Opening.

Just from like.

Wadir and opening.

Yeah.

Wadir and opening.

So.

Like, yeah.

Shoot your load in the beginning.

Although you really can't convince me that that's a hundred percent true.

Like a piece of me just never is going to believe that.

No.

That's when you got a lying police officer.

They got to see the, the witness lie and stuff.

And then.

All right.

So all, so you're saying all this as a preface to what?

You kind of just gave a closing argument that you just, whatever, or anything special about it?

I mean, probably not my best ever, right?

It's not like yours where I'm like, that was amazing goosebumps.

But it was, it was good.

It was solid.

Solid work.

I thought it was great.

I watched the closing.

I thought it was an excellent closing.

I was very impressed.

I had, you know, Martina was new to the office.

So I was really excited to see her and learn from her.

And I thought she was incredible.

Aw, thanks.

You know, but like, kind of like your trial, that's the one where like you get to get on your soapbox and like be passionate and just kind of just like let your emotions go.

Bleed all over the courtroom and just like really have a moment.

And that's the stuff I love, you know, and I got to be a little indignant, you know, because part of it is like, yeah, like this is bad behavior.

Like no one's going to be like thrilled if someone comes out and yells at you because he's hung over and wants you to shut up.

But at the end of the day, this isn't criminal conduct.

So, all right.

So then talk about, let's talk about jury deliberations.

How long did they deliberate for?

Oh, my God.

An hour?

Not even.

It was like, it was, it was like half an hour because we got back to the office and I remember we got in, we sat down and my supervisor at the time was like, they're not going to have, this was Friday.

And she's like, they're not going to have a verdict till Monday.

There's no way.

It's like four o'clock.

They're going to go home.

And we get a call and they're like, oh, you have a verdict.

So, one of the other supervisors who shall remain nameless called the head boss and was like, oh, my gosh, can you believe Martina got a verdict so fast?

It must be a guilty.

We're going to have to get her training.

I mean, poor thing.

To get a 20-minute guilty verdict.

Poor thing.

Poor thing.

And everybody walks over with me.

Alona, did you stay for this part?

I did.

I was there for the verdict.

Because it was like 15 people.

It was the most people I've ever had a verdict in my life.

Easily like 12 to 15.

And it ended up being –

Hey, you're the hottest show in town.

It felt like it.

I was like, oh, all right.

But, you know, it's also like that new kid on the block.

Like, everybody wants to see.

And the 20-minute, 30-minute verdict really did feel kind of shocking.

I think people might have gone from moral support, too.

All right.

So, you show up to court.

You got your posse with you.

The jurors come out, right?

Jurors come out.

You can never tell.

I can never tell, at least.

I'm, like, trying to read their faces.

And, I mean, you guys know that's, like, the worst seconds in your life.

I can't put in words what it feels like.

It feels like my hands are sweating.

I want to throw up.

My heart's on my chest.

Like, it's just the worst moments.

And you're, like, scanning their faces, trying to see.

Are they smiling?

Smiling people don't convict.

Or will they look at you?

If they won't look at you.

If they won't look at you, oh, they've convicted.

And you're, like, oh, my God, they've convicted him.

And they never walk in smiling, you know?

So, you're always, like, this is it.

He's going down.

He's going down.

This is it.

So, the jurors come out and what?

They come out.

And, you know, you've got the clerk who reads the charges.

And this time, there was only two.

So, it's not one of those, you know, informations where there are one of those jury readings where

they go through, like, 20 different verdicts and it's just, like, never-ending suffering.

Like, this is quick.

Too quick, not guilty.

Then, how is Carlos' reaction?

Oh, my gosh.

Carlos, of course he burst into tears, you know?

And it was just the most, like, genuine appreciation and relief and, like, vindication.

Like, it was just, like, bleeding out of him, right?

Because this has just been, I mean, imagine, he's been in jail now for, because he did not

get out.

He didn't get bailed out because this was a temp murder.

And then, it was still, like, assault of charges.

So, he's been in jail now for over half a year on this because with the dismiss and refile,

we're talking 90 days each round.

So, over half a year.

And, you know, it's a lot.

It was just.

And back to that rollercoaster of emotions thing, like, the day before, he had been, we

had been in the tank and he's yelling at us, he's telling us we're not doing a good enough

job, he's emotional, he's pissed off, he's scared to go into prison.

And then, they come back the next day and have that relief.

And you could just see it all over his face.

Yeah.

And he was just weight lifted off his shoulders, in tears.

It was good.

It was good.

Also, Carlos really, really, really loves his dog.

And so, one of the first things he said is he couldn't wait to be reunited with her.

And he's, like, crying.

He's like, I can't wait to see her.

I'm like, I get that.

I really love my dog, too.

After the jury filed out, I totally walked over and was like, I put my hand on the show.

I was like, so, I told you she was good.

You didn't mean, you know?

I was like, yeah.

Man.

And then, he wanted to hug every juror.

I was like, no, no, you can't hug him.

He's like, I just really want to hug them.

All right.

Well, let's wrap it up.

You know, Martina, great job on the trial.

This is a fun story, a fun trial.

And, you know, Matt, thanks for jumping in and helping out and giving us some extra stories

there that we may have not heard or known about unless you were here on the podcast.

So, that was cool.

And, Alona, thanks for co-hosting this.

And, Martina, you are the star of the show.

You are a public defender.

How long have you been a public defender for?

Oh, gosh, 10 years now.

And you were with a previous county before San Francisco?

Oh, I've done the grand tour of California.

I've been with Solano, Monterey, San Bernardino, Contra Costa, the law clerk.

I've been all over.

Wow.

Okay.

Okay.

And why did you want to become a public defender in the first place?

Um, I don't like bullies.

You know, my job is to bully the bullies.

So, comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

Oh, okay.

Nice and short and sweet.

I like that.

I like that.

But, you know, again, thanks for being on the show, guys.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Yeah.

All right.

It's going to be good.

It's going to be good.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A&G theme music composer, and Mike Grimm for the remix.

And guess what? We'll be back in two weeks with another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.