The Compton Red Light Carjacking Shuffle

we were just friends and i said well you told the police you were acquaintances and she's like

what's the difference i just kind of started poking pokes a bear a little bit and most of

my trial prep was about preparing transcripts for impeachment little things like she told the

officers you know client showed up in lingerie but it was a it was a black dress she's saying

your client was in lingerie beating her in the driveway she called it lingerie so i asked her i

was like you said she showed up in lingerie she's like no i didn't it's like all right well let's

play a video so a few like little pokes and she was just over me she just started unraveling

welcome to another not guilty i'm david moore here along with my fellow public defenders presenting

to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system objection that assumes there's justice in

the system which there ain't i prefer calling it the american criminal system these stories

are about the not guilty as public defenders get on a daily basis in an unchecked and welcome back

everybody to another not guilty it's your boy davy d for defense here bringing you the freshest

not guilties across these united states and of course they can't be fresh without our awesome the most

freshest co-host of the not guilty lauren here today what's up lauren how you doing what's up guys

i feel like my name should have been accompanied with like

i'm back that's right that's right we're here recording live from the ang studios or our lunchtime

break here at the public defender's office whichever you want to call it okay we get if you have a nice

lunch break so that's good we work hard we deserve it um lauren how you doing there today what's what's

going on doing good doing good getting excited for the holidays okay all right me too it's going to be

great the courts are slowing down everyone's kick kicking cases in the january now i know it's crazy to be

writing 2026 on stuff um okay but here another not guilty world we interview defense attorneys and public

defenders across the united states people want to know how does the not guilty happen how does it really

go down what what is it does someone get off on a technicality and it's like no we just point out that

everyone's full of shit that's what we do as public defenders and we're really good at it and today's

guest is one of the best in our office we have annalees knucksall from the los angers county public

defenders office here to share a recent not guilty she got here at the compton branch so i'm really

excited to have her as a guest i work with her every day she's so awesome to be with she has a great

spirit a great laugh great smile annalees welcome to the show thank you for being on it today hi david

thank you for having me feel very honored the cpt team is here today yes right so annalees you got

this not guilty uh a couple weeks ago i said hey you want to be on the show and you're like what show

who are you and i was like i'm like i'm david more from the not guilty she's like oh that's you i'm

like yeah that's me that was that was me so that's embarrassing yeah what i told him i told him i'm

more of an audiobook person but i i just wasn't getting i just wasn't getting the awe you know you

know like i was around annalees was like she just treats me like like anybody else like yeah not like

the celebrity you are right right you know i would have been more reverent i would have been more

reverent so i'm sorry i can't wait this is you're gonna be super chill about your you know celebrity

experience here but hopefully with a really good story i hope so i thought this was an interesting

case all right let's hear it yeah all right annalees introduce your client and tell us what

he was charged with my client is a she and she was charged with carjacking and kidnapping

uh alongside a co-defendant who was charged with just the carjacking i already have a question is

this kidnapping for the purpose of carjacking or carjacking and kidnapping separately because that's

a big difference right exactly carjacking and kidnapping separately so it's not a life case okay

but she was looking at 10 years eight months okay so for those who are listening that my my question

was because if it's kidnapping for the purpose of committing another crime that's automatically life

so yeah if it's just if it's just kidnapping for the purpose of just kidnapping for the fun of it

yeah it's it's just a couple of years uh all right so annalees what did your client allegedly do what

did the police claim your client did so the police report uh reads that my client and her co-defendant

and a third party um drive up to we'll get there but an acquaintance's house and my client gets out of

the car co-defendant gets into the driver's seat and co-defendant blocks the complaining witness's

car in kind of like at a perpendicular so complaining witness is blocked in my client goes up to the window

and says get the fuck out of the car this is george's car this isn't your car get the fuck

out of the car you bitch etc so that's okay so wait so your client what's your do we have a name for

your client you can go with a pseudo name if you want yeah we'll call her diane okay so diane and

co-defendant let's co-defendant's name let's let's go with dan diane diane and dan are in a car

together and they go acquaintance complaining witnesses house the alleged victim's house

she's is it a house or apartment building or it's a house okay she's in the driveway backing out of

her car right or trying to back out right she pulls into her driveway oh she's a minute before

okay so they pull up behind her they they stop their car perpendicular on the driveway so she couldn't

leave or drive backwards if she wanted to right and then and then dan the co-defendant dan

gets out of the car and approaches her right co-defendant gets into the driver's seat at the car

they drove in yeah so my client drives in gets out of the car and then dan gets into the driver's seat

while your client gets out to harass the complaining witness in her driveway yes got it and what happens

when your client approaches the alleged victim in the driveway they start she starts screaming give

me the car the police report reads that she was pulling her hair and hitting her um and this was

caught partially on ring yes the complainant is still in the car while your client is pulling her

hair yes with the door is open or cracked open and this is on the ring video there is ring video

but your client knows this person and says give me the car that's it's a very specific way to start an

argument with someone you know yes okay you're gonna tell us more about that later i'm gonna tell you

more about that okay because it all none of it even comes out really until trial and even there's still

some questions about whose car this is okay so in the police report it does it acknowledge that your

client and the complaining witness know each other that their acquaintances okay and so the police report

just says your client basically attacks her she's yelling at her she's grabbing her hair trying to

pull her out of the car and saying give me the car yes what happens next complaining witnesses kids

were in the car they go into the house uh one kid is 17 and then one kid is six oh dear so they go into

the house and then the police report reads that uh the complaining witness is forced into the passenger

seat my client gets into the driver's seat and moves the car away and then my client proceeds to drive

away with complaining witness in the car interesting and that's the end of the police report then

complaining witness is dropped off well she said she was pushed out of the car about a mile down the road

like just on the side of the road or at a gas station just side of the road okay like tumbles out of the

car and rolls in the street she said she's pushed out so client client apparently pulls the car over

okay okay it's not a moving vehicle no they stop and then my client drives away

still feels like a 245 but okay yeah and then complaining witness walks home yeah and that's

the police report and then she calls the police the complaining witness she denies it but we know

someone called 9-1-1 and we never got a 9-1-1 call which i played up at trial then how is your so

there's a 9-1-1 call but there's no we don't know what the contents of that call are but the police

are called they take a report and then when's your client and co-defendant arrested so complaining

witness tells the police i know where they went they're at her house they're at diane's house here's

their address feels like more than acquaintances i don't know the addresses of my acquaintances but

okay exactly lauren this is this is the relationship here is very interesting so police go to diane's

house the car is there with diane and dan diane comes out with the keys says here are the keys to

the car and they both get arrested okay no other statements made by your client later under miranda

yeah diane comes out of the car what comes out of her apartment with the keys and gives those to the

cops and was the complaining witness with the cops at the time no okay and then that's when they're

arrested okay i'm sorry go ahead continue then she has a mirandized interview where she says yeah i took

the fucking car that's my ex-girlfriend i knew it so she tells them that that's the relationship that

they had broken up did she say why she felt entitled to take the car she said that that was

not complaining witness's car that she was that it was mr george's car mr george is a guy dan

oh mr george is this unknown entity that is lending people cars apparently he owns a car a lot

it's a very compton case who was the car registered to another person not mr george or dan or diane or the

complaining witness did that person report their vehicle stolen okay so this is the exact clusterfuck

you would expect yes yeah so that's that's what i'm reading and i'm like holy crap this case wait

was co-defendant also was dan also arrested yes at her house he was also give a statement

no smart shout out to dan way to play it dan yeah and we don't even know dan's real involvement he

could have just been driving there to drop her off and then takes off without knowing anything about a

kidnap or a carjack i suppose it's possible is dan diane's boyfriend now yes he was there was a

relationship going on between them for sure i did get complicated yes yes okay so all right so you uh

you get this case annalise were you there at the beginning of the case or did you take it over from

somebody i did not arraign her but i met her at her first setting date for her prelim okay so tell us

what that was like when you went to go meet diane how is she diane is devastated that dan is in custody

that was not herself just dan oh she said dan did nothing she can't believe he's in here she's

crying she's inconsolable dan's a good guy dan's a good guy got caught up with the wrong woman

and now he's in he's in jail we've heard this story thousands of times yes so client is just beside

herself about dan and i'm just trying to focus on what is happening i'm trying to get out who mr

george is i'm trying to get out who the complaining witness is to her because at this point it's it's

unclear and client just keeps going back to when is when is dan getting out and i'm like dan's looking

at a lot of time and you are too so let's start talking about how we're gonna fight this or reach

a disposition right so then where do you go from there i think that there might be a mental health

diversion potentially so i get the ball rolling with that so we put it over a couple of weeks uh the

next time i come to court my client tells me fuck your bullshit mental health diversion i'm not

waving any more time i want dan to get out i want my trial i mean i don't love her reasoning but i do

love when our clients are like let's just ride or die let's go i loved it i was like one moment let

me document this in my notes yeah yeah so did she start answering your questions at that point though

when when she said i'm not waving any time fuck your mental health let's do a trial and you i

seemingly said great let's talk about a possible defense exactly that's where we went from there i'm

like all right i need to get some info here okay so it comes out she tells me that her and the

had had had a romantic relationship in the past she had kicked her out of the house her and her kids

and then my client heard that her ex was bad-mouthing her around the community and she didn't like that

and she had talked with this guy george who said yeah complaining witness has been talking shit about

you this is the mr george character yes mr has the the car lot that he's letting people borrow cars

yes okay so client's really upset diana's like i keep mr george's is telling me that you're talking

you know shit about me so i'm gonna go confront you and i'm gonna give your car back to mr george

wait did mr george ask her to get the car back did she say mr george said that he'd already told

this woman to bring his car back no diane was just on a mission of vengeance for mr george because

she was mad that her ex was talking shit yes got it yes and and dan she says has absolutely no part in

it he was just backing around the car he was dan was just trying to leave yes and uh the complaining

witness does identify both diane and dan as the people who are there which comes into play later

um say that last part again the complaining witness identifies both diane and dan as being there as dan

being the driver that blocks her in and diane as the one which she ends up recanting as to dan oh okay

so this is kind of like uh not really disputing the facts she does drive up with dan she does get out of the car she does confront

her and she does take the car yes but she says it was done with complaining witness's consent that they

were going to go sort it out with mr george together and that's so so there's she saying she

willingly scooted over into the passenger seat to allow her into the driver's seat exactly okay what

about the ring video that shows her grabbing her by the hair and stuff that doesn't sound very willing

you can't see the hair pulling from the ring because of the angle you can see her at the

at the driver's side window and you can hear what she's saying but because of the angle you can't see

the any physical altercation what do you hear her saying get the fuck out of the car this is mr george's

car you bitch get the fuck out of the car give me the car just on repeat and then you hear the

complaining window shouting no okay all right i don't love it but i don't hate it i mean there's

some good things in there but i think it's a little bit if mr george wasn't asking for the vehicle back i think

that's still a potential problem in your case right and mr george cannot be contacted he's mr george is

not coming to court he's mythical yes he is not coming to court even if he's real he's not coming to court

we end up doing the preliminary hearing okay tell us about that complaining witness doesn't show it is a

15 minute prelib they have the one officer testifies to what they all they hear say yeah and what can i

cross on like are you sure and then your clients rubber stamped held the answer yes and you're not

waiving any time you're going to trial no at that point i think we waived two days okay the offer

post prelim is five-year state prison as to both so you know that you can't find mr george i assume

co-counsel did not let you talk to dan i did not speak to dan okay did you try and get a statement

from the complaining witness ex-girlfriend since she didn't come to the prelim i did and did she agree

to speak she agreed to speak and she mostly reiterated her story from the police report yes and

her story is that your client violently attacked her did did she talk about did she acknowledge that

the car wasn't hers that it was mr george's yes and but so when your investigator spoke to her she said

she had permission to have the car and your client attacked her yes okay i mean it's basically leaving

you in the same position as before you started it was it was it wasn't a great outcome with the

investigation request and then i tried to investigate the third person in the car okay wait the third

person there was a person in the back seat of the car that diane and dan were driving and who was this

person to them just a friend or and that person didn't want to give a statement no i love compton cases

um so then all right so then what are you what are you trying to do before trial then to get ready

well i tried my client wanted an offer then she's like if you can get me probation i'll i'll eat the

strike i have no other strikes i just want probation i'll take suspended time my client had some like

other a couple other felonies in her past but nothing it's like drug stuff um so i begged the

prosecutor he says no i'm like suspend the time no and then at this point had dan pled out no dan has

not pled so now so she went from pure concern over dan when your first meeting to now i'm here and

fuck your mental health diversion i'm not waiving any more time to now fuck dan just give me a deal

that gets me out on probation yes she wanted out i'm not mad at diane for this okay no but but we did

have conversations so at one point we were talking and she's like i'm gonna take the stand and i'm

like oh okay um what are you gonna say she's like i'm gonna tell them that dan had nothing to do with

it and i was like can you also say you had nothing to do with it and we got we got into it a few times

i at one point she just keeps talking about dan and we're we're like 20 days from trial and there's

no offer other than that five years so we're talking about the case and she keeps talking about dan and

how she needs dan to get out and i was like diane i don't care about dan he's got his own lawyer i need

to protect you and in like a very teenager way she's like but i care about him she's like crying

so we we had our we had our tiffs and you know i had to leave lock up then i came back i'm like i'm

very sorry i know you care about dad let let me send you a book let's try to ease the the emotions

here so your client's story is that she was taking the car to bring back to mr george with cda with

the complaining witnesses consent they were going together yes did your client admit to pushing

the complaining witness out of the car no she said that she wanted to be let out of the car that she

decided she didn't want to go to mr george's so she pulled over and cw got out and then what is your

client's explanation for the fact that she has the car at her house and not with mr george when the

police come find her that's an excellent question lauren she she wanted to just go home shower or drop

off dan and the third person before meeting up with mr george because i assume that the prosecutor at

trial is going to zero in on these facts to poke holes in your client's story right so how long

was it between when the alleged carjacking occurred to when the police showed up at your

client's residence where your client just had the car parked outside it's probably like 45 50 minutes

it was fairly fast okay so that's fast so it is potentially believable that your client was dropping

off other people and regrouping or at least regrouping with them because they had driven back so she

didn't drop them but yeah she went to meet them okay it's not like it was there for days without going

back to mr george no okay mr george yes okay so so you've done all of your prep right it it felt like

i was ready i felt like this was a credibility case so you had a five a five-year offer you're saying it's

a credibility case lauren were you gonna ask a question yeah the complaining witness does she have

a rap sheet very minimal a couple petty things but from nothing you can really impeach her with

no no because you can't impeach her with any testimony at the prelims and she didn't testify

and when you sent an investigator to speak to her she basically tells the exact same story she tells

the police so if it's a credibility call you're not going to be able to talk about different statements

that she's made so i guess if you can't impeach her with any prior crimes of moral turpitude

how what was your plan to make her less credible aside from the fact i guess that she wasn't

completely forthcoming about her relationship with your client that felt like a huge part to me

but uh she didn't have any injuries they took photos of her face where they alleged some redness and of

her arms but there was no she's describing this beat down essentially where she even says at one

point like i lost hair and there was nothing nothing to show that so i think the physical evidence

went toward that and just the way she acted on the body worn video i didn't think that she would

make a good witness for that okay and she was saying that she was not the one who called the police

she said that on the stand but police were dispatched for a potential carjacking so but that goes

to credibility too i mean if you've suffered this violent attack it feels like that might be a thing

one would think i mean probably the kids the kid you're right the kids probably called the police

right they ran inside the house the 17 year old navy all right so we got a five-year offer it's not

getting any better we go in the trial it's a credibility issue and really it's a credibility issue

whether or not the complaining witness voluntarily scooted over into the passenger seat to let diane

into the car or did diane force her to scoot over and diane forcefully entered into the car and drive

off and that's kind of like the case right there right that's pretty much what it hinges on

okay um you got no evidence to corroborate your your your version right not really not really you

have a ring video that shows that there was some yelling that there wasn't a friendly uh was there

was sort of a verbal altercation you can call it um that baby was being hostile though for the audio

it has where she's telling her that this is mr george's car yeah i like that maybe there's a legal issue

on whether or not she has a right to take the property of somebody else that doesn't belong to

that person did you do any research on that like on the possession or right that's not it's not a

defense it's a car jacket just a little cya or was that even necessary was that even necessary cya

research i don't know okay um okay and then the co-defendant dan it marched along the trial too right

yes he will not take the five years okay all right and then who's who's uh dance counsel

alternate public defender okay and how's how's apd been on this case good fine i was nervous

okay because i felt like my client is the heavy here yeah and was a good feeling ellie i was afraid

that she would just get up and throw my client under the bus that's probably what i would have done if

i had dan so and i'd never done a co-defendant trial before they're the worst yeah it would it would it

just puts your mindset in a whole different position because i feel like now i'm now i'm

almost looking at two prosecutors yeah plus you you have even less control i mean trial is crazy because

the best laid plans can just blow up in your face but when you have code co-counsel and there's a

co-defendant what's happening is even less out of your control if there are things you don't want to

talk about nothing prevents them from getting up and bringing them out in front of a jury even if

they're not trying to blame your client so yes i think they're the worst and i like tried to chat

with her i'm like here's the thing i don't think you want to throw my client under the bus

because i'm just trying to you know remind her like hey like look maybe both of them didn't do it you

know so did you have a conversation about working together or was it very sort of

close to the chest that apd was playing it so that you didn't know what they were gonna argue

i mean we were friendly but i don't think it was like books open like let me show you everything

she got an investigation into the third person in the car she turned that over to me the third person

the car did speak to her saying she'd come to court to support dan but not my client so

dude dan's the man dan has i'm wondering about dan's relationship with all these women and why

your client was so concerned about dan i have suspicions but you know unless unless dan is george

dan is somebody to these women dan is somebody dan is somebody yeah he he yeah wouldn't take

anything either and his max was higher because he had a prior strike that tracks with my theory of dan

also about how you're like who's this dan guy what a big deal and then you saw him for the first time

enter to that courtroom and then what was that like you got you you finally got it right you're like

you know what i didn't i didn't feel the same magic that my client felt okay all right well let's let's

talk about trial then okay it sounds like all right so you don't know what you're doing i mean you know

what you're doing but you don't know what's going to happen on this case where are we going what

direction we're going to fight over two different two facts uh so then let's talk about uh the judge

did you get in front of did did you like the poll you got when you were sent to i papered first okay

one judge and then i ended up in front of i think a great judge for this case okay great good job

good job and when we paper someone over here at the los angeles county public defender's office we're

just saying this judge can't be fair send us somewhere else and hopefully that judge is fair and

hopefully it's not once you only do it once okay and uh so tell us about was there any pre-trial

motions motions of limiting 402s lee 402 of interest because everything was coming in

was that um on the day that the complaining witness was subpoenaed to court she came in scrubs

and my clients whispering to me like she doesn't work she doesn't work like why is she wearing those

scrubs so i make a 402 uh ordering the court or asking the court to order the prosecutor to have their

witness show up in civilian clothes oh i like it she was pretending to be a medical professional

i said i was like we trust these people inherently like this is crazy and the judge is like what

authority do you have for this so i'm like i don't know it's it's prejudicial yeah i like it did it work

he said we'll cross that bridge if we need to and she rolled up in regular clothes so okay okay now i feel

like as a judge i would deny that it's like they can wear whatever they want they can wear a fucking

pirate outfit i don't understand i mean like it doesn't matter with i mean you could just cross

examine them be like do you work as a medical professional no i don't okay to make people

believe you are like to wear scrubs you're you're fucking fake and phony that just like your test up

just like your testimony you want people to believe what is not okay so but what if she said yes i am a

medical professional great where where and then you go down what's your proof yeah i mean they would

have to be licensed by a board right you could probably look them up real quick in the some type

of a portal and yeah yeah all right but yeah you have enough to worry about i get it i get it so

okay so this was your only 402 i mean other than the standard 402s you know exclude witnesses there

wasn't a lot i mean there was the ring video there was body worn video at first the prosecutor said she

wasn't going to bring in any of my client statements she ended up then deciding to bring in them i she must

have listened to the mirandise interview over the weekend because we came in monday she's like oh i

actually am and i'm like what are you gonna do so let's talk about jury selection then on a case like

this where you're not quite sure what direction the case is going to go in or what your defense is

going to be i mean it's a straight credibility issue so what's your your goal for jury selection

i didn't want emotionally charged people i guess i wanted people that maybe looked at this and were

like okay it's it's a fight it's you know um i didn't want anyone that would get like emotional

over what happened how are you selecting for that though trying to just kind of ask them about

just a vibe honestly based on where they were the vibe they were giving they did not care for me

they they didn't like me the jurors the jurors they love the judge totally laughing with the judge

they're all having at the time of their life i get up crickets really i i like make this i have a

hypothetical about sports and the dodgers were in the playoffs when i was doing this and i asked them

i was like who watched the dodgers game last night like two people raised their hand out of 18 i was

like come on we're in la only two people and one guy's like some of us don't like baseball right

and i'm just like i am so sorry i did not think that that was controversial uh i kept him you were

the you were the first attraint to voir deer too right were you the first one ago it's i think it's

hard as the first lord of voir deer you really gotta crack through with those people and sometimes it's

hard yeah you gotta run them up a couple people had been victims of carjacking and part of me kind of

wanted to keep them because they were like this stranger gone to a car put a gun to my head and

these facts i thought were just so different but but i didn't keep them okay um so then you're just

asking generalized voir deer questions then just to be fair a lot about witness credibility how do you

judge someone's credibility and then a lot about beyond a reasonable doubt it was it was hard i felt

it was my first compton trial so it was a totally different batch of jurors than i was used to in a

good way so it was a challenging what about re-selection i thought and then did apd the

co-defendant's counselor go next she went next and pretty much piggybacked off me okay okay except

they liked her or him i think they liked her more i felt it i was looking at them except she was

i was like how dare you okay i mean i mean same strategy but likable yeah yeah my joke was better

i had a better story i was a little offended i i started off with my usual like my name is

annie snuxall and i like to say i represent the people too just one at a time that normally gets

a laugh only person that laugh was a prosecutor oh yeah oh that's worse than no laughs at all i'm like

that's awesome awesome you guys like it's like people think i'm charming but okay it doesn't

sound like you kicked a lot of people though like you got a jury pretty quickly after the judge's

voir dire it moved pretty quickly my client and i got into it over one person we're at the table

just whispering back and forth furiously she wanted me to kick a high school teacher who didn't want to

be on a kidnapping case because of kids but there are no child victims she's gonna be awesome she's

expecting something awful yeah and it feels like a high school teacher would also sort of not be as

phased by the drama between the women i thought so if you're working with teenagers all day long

this doesn't seem like it's out of the realm of the ordinary yes yeah so we kept her after though

like my client like after that just crossed her arms was leading towards the alternate public defender i'm

like i get it i get it you're not happy so who'd you end up with what did your what did your final

jury box look like um it was six men and six women okay and a complete three latino jurors three

african american jurors three or two white jurors and then a couple of racially ambiguous jurors

okay i like it that sounds i liked it i liked it a lot all right and so you're saying your client

was sort of leaning over and trying to associate with code of co-counsel she really liked co-counsel

yeah i mean the jurors and your client everybody liked to co-counsel better than you it was rough

it was rough for my ego it's okay we got through it um how was the prosecutor's vaudeer it was good

it was a standard standard prosecutor vaudeer um okay let's talk about opening statements then what

was the prosecutors the prosecutors i think she over promised okay great so she she went through

the fact she showed the video the ring video which i expected um pointed out who all the characters

were but it was it was pretty standard but i think she over promised on like what that witness was

going to testify to she made it seem like i think she made the complaining witness seem like she was

gonna be a lot more sympathetic and she wasn't and she played the video during her opening yes it's

ballsy yeah so then you have to in your i feel like if that happens if i was if that happens in

okay simon an opening statement the video is a damning video pretty much the whole case is being played

right then and there i feel like you have to really attack that video and your opening statement now

did she play it with the audio or just yes okay so then what'd you do in your opening statement

and what was your strategy to change it all because of the video no because my strategy was to lay out

my entire case in my opening you know sometimes we do the like wait till you hear all the evidence

you know keep an open mind but in this one i wanted to get ahead of whatever apd was gonna say

so so mine was actually very detailed you know and my whole theme was like look solid falls apart so i was

like you just saw a video you know it looked it looked great it looked great for them but you you

it's going to fall apart okay um and i i laid out that a lot of the story aligned until you know

really ultimately this was a consensual encounter i like that it's a it's a very i think that's a solid

theme like i understand that you're gonna see these things and it's gonna look bad but just trust me

they're not gonna be able to get there right so what looks solid falls apart okay i like that

it's ikea furniture i mean you know is there a world where they just like that's how your client

and the complaining witness communicate with each other they see each other they yell for a second

or two and then they just calm down and then like okay agree and then just drive off together

it's probably why they broke up yeah toxic oh oh okay okay so what was what was apd yeah yeah what

was apd's opening statement he really just focused on her client never even talked about my client i

didn't talk about hers i just kind of left him alone and she did the same for me so she just kind of

talked about how he was in a car had no idea the car was he just was re-parking the car had no intent or

even understanding that there was a carjacking or a kidnapping okay great um all right so then off to

the first witness for the people then huh yes and this is actually really important the week before the

the trial complaining when his emails the prosecutor saying uh dan had nothing to do with it so she had

recanted a week before well i mean this this these are three women now highly concerned about what's

happening to dan your client the mysterious uh backseat passenger and now the alleged victim herself

yes it's all about my client okay so she takes the stand first um says yeah that she parked her car

and pretty much tells the story of my client coming up to her telling her to get out of the car

but then there were some differences she says like she says things like what i moved into the passenger

seat or she said i jumped in the passenger seat so i'm trying to get all these like small discrepancies

because i'm just hoping to build from there she says then uh this time that she gets out of the car

instead of getting pushed out of the car so she's starting to make some inconsistent statements

from before nothing major but enough i thought that okay i'm going to start to

seize on these inconsistencies if she testified she got out of the car that means she would have

testified she got back in the car then at some point right got out of the car

after client had driven her away oh okay okay so she got out of the car okay instead of being pushed

out of the car right and then she seemed like how i expected her on the stand she seemed angry

and very short with the prosecutor just like her her statements were like well yeah then that happened

like filled with attitude so she's stuck by her story though that your client beat her up

your client beat her up and that your client drove away with her in the car against her will yes when

she said she got out of the car did she say like and then i escaped yeah she was like i was screaming at

her get get get me out of the car let me out of the car and then she pulled over and i got out of the car

okay and then she walks home now but then when the cops get there and this is on my cross um you know

i was like well you told the cops where to find her you know you knew where she was going because you

agreed to go there um so i tried to to get on that you know it's like who you weren't getting kidnapped

you knew exactly where to find client um did she did she testify to the relationship with client

i asked her about it she denies it okay did you ask her like how she knew your client then if she

denies it it was her girlfriend she said we were just friends and i said well you told the police

you were acquaintances and she's like what's the difference like that was the tone yeah and i was

like well you knew where she lived and so like so it was a very she i didn't think she came across

well and then i just kind of started poking pokes a bear a little bit and most of my trial prep was

about preparing transcripts for impeachment little things like she told the officers you know client

showed up in lingerie but it was a it was a black dress she's saying your client was in lingerie beating

her in the driveway she called it lingerie so i asked her i was like you said she showed up in

lingerie she's like no i didn't i was like all right well let's play a video and then everything

just like felt really defensive so a few like little pokes and she was just over me she just started

unraveling mm-hmm and then i said did you call 911 she's like no mom's like okay do you know who did

she she didn't um did you ask her why she didn't call 911 no oh okay wait did she just walk home

did she just yes just calmly walks fucking home yes in her words but your hair was yanked out of your

head yeah okay it it felt bizarre and i was hoping that the jurors would kind of see that and then i had

her the prosecutor had her circle injuries on a an exhibit and i had her circle her so-called injuries

on my exhibit because i thought my toner looked better like the the color it looked less red yeah

i had her circle injuries and i was kind of like okay so you circled something i see i'm gonna publish

it to the jury um any other really good moments with her the biggest one i think was the lingerie moment it

it was bizarre but i think it really pissed her off i sat down to my clients like i don't think she likes

you very much yeah and you said she can join your club i'm like literally none of you like me like

and then she recanted as to dan she said he wasn't there oh i know there now i couldn't see the person

driving in the car i like it oh dan's already one yeah dan dan and his attorney are just like sitting

there i'm fighting for my life yeah another actually big point on cross was on direct she never said she

was afraid which you need force or fear for these and and i'm like you were mad you know and she's like

yeah and i was like you were upset that client did this you yeah and and you were afraid for the other

people on the road because client was driving recklessly while punching you yeah and just

kind of getting out like all this anger in hopes to avoid the fear portion so then how did that how

how did apd's cross go apd asked like three questions what what did apd need to do yeah

exactly my client wasn't even here so thanks see you later hers was fast and yeah but she wanted that

to be over as quickly as possible before there could be another switch in the story yeah

so then who testified next for the people then uh clients i'm sorry uh cw's daughter who's 17 18 now

and then they she ran into the house right suppose yes so she testified that she saw them screaming

she saw diane yelling at her mom and then saw them drive off together

i think that she was the most important witness for me because i got out through her that diane had

lived with them for a period of time they did holidays together much more than an acquaintance

and much more than a friend i mean we've gone now from acquaintance to friend to someone to

i mean someone you'd spend family like a christmas with and i was like have you ever seen your mom

and diane argue yes they would scream at each other yes just a typical day exactly um and then i was

like and they drove off together um and you didn't call the police she's like no no it's like because

they knew each other yeah i guess it doesn't i was gonna ask what she said they were screaming

about but i guess it doesn't matter because you have the video with her saying like this isn't

your car this is mr george's car so right also presumably your uh the complaining witness could

call her daughter or text her daughter help i'm in trouble you know something like that she never

received a set type of communication from her mom regarding that at one point in the body-worn

complaining witness said she didn't have her phone on her so i didn't want to get into any of that

because i thought that that would be better for argument you know just like leave it

alone because if i start crossing on that like now i could ruin that and the d.a wasn't smart enough

to bring it in the d.a got the cake she got it handed off to her i don't well i but i don't think she

was prepared to uh you know okay so the daughter testified in a way that you felt like was favorable to

your case yes it's not looking good for the prosecutor and again dan's already in the clear

what was that dan and apd are drinking coffee with my client i'm just sweating

then they call an officer that arrested client got the keys and found the car at her house i didn't

have a lot for him sure and then the last officer so it went pretty quick uh the last officer testified

uh that he came to the scene spoke to complaining witness a uh the prosecutor tried to use him to

impeach the complaining witness about dan oh okay um it wasn't great i got in some statements from the

officer that the complaining witness had told him about getting pushed out of the car and then this was i

felt like my big moment i was like you saw injuries yes i was like you took photos yes and i bring him the

exhibit that complaining witness had already circled her injuries in red and i gave it to him and i give

him a blue pen i was like circle the injuries in this pen and he circled a different part of her arm

nice i was trying not to like be giddy but i was like this is amazing there is no injury they can't

even circle the same spot on the photo i love that she'd already done it too and he still circled a

different spot wait the photograph the photograph you gave him had red circles on it yes he couldn't

figure out what the injuries were circled a different part no you got it i see the look of confusion on

your face you got you got it that was that's what she said okay just making sure maybe there was

another exhibit with red and this one didn't have the red on it okay no you got it i i i took it from

him i was like i don't want him second guessing this i was like thank you so much no further questions

please leave so you just say you're just you're gonna save that for closing right yes you're gonna

give him a chance to be like hey what's up with these red circles here you don't give him a chance

to clean that up yeah that's the tough part you know when you're in trial in the moment you highlight

something more but you give him a chance to clean it up we just save it for closing the best thing to

do is save for closing because they'll think they'll think and they'll come up with an answer and

ruin it so yeah so was that their last witness yeah uh and they got in his uh my

client's mirandai's interview about taking the car but the good part is i also got in the part about

how they were ex-girlfriends so now we've had many iterations of who these women are to each other

and that was their last one your client's mirandai statements aren't they're not fatal to your case

right i mean because she's saying what you can hear in the video yeah she's saying i i didn't beat

her i she was coming with me to go deal with this situation because the car didn't belong to her

so i'm i mean normally when your client's mirandai statement comes in it's a very

it's very bad for your case normally it's never i've at least myself i've never had a trial where

that part went well so but in your case there wasn't anything really detrimental

no especially since you were going with the idea where you weren't trying to dispute

this didn't happen you weren't trying to say she didn't take the car so her statement coming in

couldn't really have hurt it could only have helped by corroborating some of the things that

you were trying to get out in trial right i agree it wasn't the worst i still didn't want the

admission of taking the car but you're right at the end of the day it didn't it did yeah so all right

so then it's time for the defense case now yes and before we move on was there was there any

was there any little side stories that happened during trial that we didn't

any little stories that we want to find out about that we just asked the right question or anything

like that um i think client was warming up to me as as the case i had gotten her some clothes which

that was a whole thing i don't know women shopping for your own clothes like i don't

know if anyone has like cried in a dressing room because like 18 pairs of jeans just like

don't fit you but having to like get her clothes was so difficult i like ask her her size and she's

a larger woman and she's like i don't know and i was like no dan you gotta like what clothes i don't

know that david understands how hard this is because i feel like men they're they have like

the measurements right and if you have your measurements you can just buy anything but

women's clothing is like i'm a extra small in this brand and a medium in this brand and it's just

nothing's cut the same it's so difficult when you are personally there shopping for yourself

shopping for another person who's being cagey about what size to get in the first place i do not envy

you i i was like plus size stretchy dress clothes like so one really funny thing my client came out

and i had brought her a couple options and she's like me and the deputy think that that dress looks

like a curtain a what a curtain she moved her client she moved her and then i'm like i turned

around to the bailiff and i was like are you kidding me really you're weighing in on the outfits and he

says to my client he's like come on you're doing me dirty here it was like i felt like we were getting

along i think she saw that i was trying but just you know she had her hair done every day and we had

a lot of discussions i've never had like this sort of like she's like should i do my hair curly or

straight and then she would like come in with braids and she's like the girls the girls did them so

there was some and then she had her falsies eyelashes on that she put on with wet coffee grounds to get

them to stick so just like a lot of do the highlighter makeup yeah like our clients our female clients in

in custody come up with all kinds of way to do their hair and makeup and she truly did i mean i felt bad

for the clothes because again i was i was just going for like you said i moo mooed my client

she did it was just like a lot of humanity in there where like she just wanted to look presentable

as like a base feeling of like humanity like i am a woman and yes i am in this trial but i still want

to look look good yeah all right so so i assume dan's case was dismissed at 11 18. well there

we go that's gonna ask so the prosecution arrests uh motion to dismiss by you annalise denied

denied it was denied pretty quick but thanks for coming yes and then um apd makes their motion

and the prosecutor submits oh gosh even so now the prosecutor likes dan

the prosecutor's on board with dan

just submit and apologizes too right the prosecutor submitted and apologized

so my client is weeping she's so happy she's not sad at this point she's happy for dan i'm like are you

okay she's like i'm so happy and i'm like good lord okay you're still on trial diane head back in the

game yes i'm like this is the part come on we're closing this afternoon so it was nice i got a ton more

space um so dan and apd leave the table so the jurors are in the jury room they leave they clean

up their stuff diane and i move over i was like next to the projector i'm like super crunched during

this whole trial they leave i scoot over i spread out uh jurors come back in and the judge is like

all right we're now down to one the jurors are like looking at me and my client i'm like i don't

don't look at me like did you feel like that made it better or worse though or maybe no effect at all

because on the one hand seeing someone already get dismissed i feel like could look good right like

the the prosecutor has brought this case against both of these people and they've already lost

one before it even goes to you on the other hand i feel like it could look it could make your client

look even more like the heavy it could make her look more guilty that one was already let go and yours

is like there's a reason why your client's still here there's a reason why dan will let go because

he's innocent right i had that fear about that but i think it ultimately made it better because i

didn't have to worry about what apd would say during her closing i could argue as freely as i wanted

sure or maybe dan would get up and testify who knows what dan would have said right maybe dan had

like a manslaughter charge back in the day so i don't think they want again i'm not surprised

okay so dan's a passionate person man okay uh-huh okay so time for the defense case annalise tell us

about it i rested well i did i talked with my client i was like hey i know you wanted to testify for dan

but now his case is done so you don't need to testify i mean like is that something you still

want to do she's like no i'm good yeah excellent i didn't want i didn't want her to testify my client

would have gotten feisty on this well i mean if the complaining witness didn't come off well um

and you got all the things out that you did what could your client have added yes i took the car i

actually did beat her ass because she pissed me off like what could she have said right yeah so luckily

dan's life was spared so my client did not have to tell the jury he did nothing okay perfect so so

you rest time for closing arguments then i rest i asked them to add a lesser of uh vehicle theft

and that is the lesser of it's not a lesser included i just asked them to add it and they said no

because i was like i'm gonna go in if if they added i could just i could argue theft you know client

admitted to taking the car it wasn't hers because at this point i i'm i'm obviously i'm just trying

and my client was okay with it i was just trying to figure out a way to avoid the other ones okay so

they said no so it's time for closing arguments then how did the all or nothing it's all or nothing

now yeah um the prosecutor did fine i mean it was a pretty standard prosecutor closing argument you

know she played the video powerpoint with the seal box yes the the big old da seal and then the you

know the slide with your role as a juror and outside of it is like sympathy sentencing you know all

that did she you're not supposed to give a fuck about people did she replay the video yes um

um all right so then how's your your closing argument go uh i think well i think it went well

so i i was fired up at this point you know uh i came in back hot with my with my theme you know

look solid falls apart had a picture of a house with a broken foundation oh you're huffing and puffing

you're ready to blow it down i was thrilled with that slide who knows the jurors again i i don't

think they were really amused with me one way or another because i went super hard on there was no

fear that she never testified to any fear and that there was no force because if there was force uh you

uh you would have seen the injuries and then i popped up that picture with the two separate places

circled i like i want i was expecting like oohs and ahs and like like you know i was having my moment

but they they all just like looked at it the jurors they they saw it again i i don't know what i was

well i i was expecting more work how were you feeling in that moment did you think you had the upper hand

in the trial or were you just or maybe you're just kind of you're just fighting to the end you're not

really thinking about it at this point i'm just fighting to the end she has to because everyone's

hated her she has gotten no positive feedback so she just has to keep trekking i did the one of the

vibes from the jurors what was that like during the during the closing argument they were pretty stoic i had

an alternate nodding along with me which i'm like you're not relevant i kept making eye contact with

them for the affirmation like what am i doing you're not you're not a part of this i expected there

was a couple people i was really trying to go to because i thought they'd be a four person

they so i put that up and i i was like you didn't hear anywhere in this testimony that there was fear

um and then i had a few slides with you know what's complaining witness said on the stand

and then like ways that that was disproven like things like the 911 call she didn't say she made it

but the officers said there was one and her daughter didn't make the 911 call all these things i just had

there was about 15 things that didn't quite match up did you talk about dan did you talk about how

she said he was there and then said he wasn't yes i said good without being worried exactly i was like

we know she implicated dan at some point because he was sitting right there you know and now she says

on the stand under oath never saw him i was like we know that's not true so i felt super passionate

during my closing i i felt like it was i felt like i gave a good closing you got to pick apart their

elements of the offenses so there is no fear there was no force because there's no injuries which is

actually not true but it's great that you got away with arguing that so you got to you got to argue

that no force because there's there's no injuries and then you got to argue the complaining witnesses

credibility because of the lies she told about the 911 call because of the lies she told about dan

and because of the lies she told about her relationship with your client yes so i miss anything and then just

some semantic stuff where she said i was pushed out of the car at the end when client dropped her off

or did she get out of the car on her own those things really not it's one of those things where

i feel like the prosecutors say oh they're gonna nitpick about small chains that's actually a really big

thing if you just get out of a car that's pulled over versus being pushed out of a car that's a that's

a significant change a significant detail especially when you're saying you're being attacked and

kidnapped just feels like a thing that would be consistent if you were telling the truth

right and then i brought up the point about the lingerie just because because it was fun again i

i was like she said it out there now she denies it and you know i like it because it makes her look

ridiculous too like why would you why would you even fight me on that you're right it was kind of a

like don't be ridiculous moment mm-hmm so i was feeling super good i sit down and my

client she's been like writing notes you know i give her a pencil and uh notebook paper and she's

like writing and i was like this is it she's gonna tell me she's gonna tell me i did good

and she slides no no she's paper over and it says i'm so scared oh well at least she didn't tell

you that you did terribly no but i was like oh no i sat down i was like you're walking like that is how i

felt what i actually love about this though is that despite all evidence to the contrary throughout this

entire trial you sat down expecting your client to be like great work despite the entire way things had

been going you were just optimistic and thought she was gonna be like i feel good good job yeah

i did you did you respond then to the i'm scared like what'd you do i just looked at her and i said i

know like i was like i know i tried to like comfort her you know because again and the whole time she

had just been asking me to promise me i won't get 10 years promise me i won't get 10 years and i'm like

like i can't promise you that the prosecutor gets up in her b and she's like i don't know why the

defense keeps talking about the lingerie and that was it that was their whole b argument it that was

mostly don't don't pay attention to anything else the defense attorney just talked about let's talk

about this stupid lingerie thing she's focused on i just gotta laugh she also said like you don't need

injuries for force which is true okay yeah and then i love the way she said that though it's true

yeah reluctant admittance so what uh how long were the jurors out for then um the first day was

like maybe 45 minutes okay we came back the next day about an hour in uh they had a question

and it was uh one of the jurors believes that she uh the complaining witness testified that she was

afraid we won't read back and now i'm like i screwed up she said it she said

it i promised them it wasn't in the testimony i'm texting apd i'm like did she ever say she was

afraid i am sweating because i felt like i made this big promise in my closing that you never heard

her say it and i am like i'm sitting there and i just i'm sweating and the court reporter is preparing

the transcript by the way and at least just just so you know like the other day i was in a preliminary

hearing and uh the the witness said something about like like uh uh oh uh there's there was this and i

said yeah objected assumes facts and evidence and the judge was like no no there was testimony towards

it and i was like oh and then i looked at my notes and i had even wrote in the thing down in my notes

i just in that moment forgot that that there was testimony about it because it just happened

you know it goes so fast it happens and you're yeah so i i'm scared though because i i felt like

my case both both these charges require force or fear so i was like that was one of my big promises

and the fact that they were listening i was like yeah that's cool but i am i am panicking and the

we're sitting there and the court porter is searching in her transcript fear and she's like fear's not

coming up and the prosecutor's like search afraid search afraid and i am just i'm just sitting there and

she never testified that she was in fear it was awesome so we got this read back where she had

never said it and now i'm like okay i'm feeling a little better now okay good good so not out of the

woods yet but you survived still surviving i talk with my client we go back there and i'm like how

are you doing and she's like i don't know how you do this job she's like i didn't sleep last night did

you sleep i'm like hell no i didn't sleep the jury's out and she's just like i don't know how you how

you and other public defenders do this day in and day out she's like i mean you're invested and i think at

at that point it clicked with her how you know how much had gone into this and how that i was emotional

i think she saw me at the table when this testimony was coming up how i was getting scared you know

that like i cared about her and i think she she saw that uh that was nice to have that she told me that

then in that moment she goes my daughter's pregnant which i knew she goes if i walk out of here i told

her you need to name my grandbaby annalise because i think it's a really pretty name and she's like

yeah but my daughter doesn't like the name so yeah it's a thought that counts can't get away and can't

get a win in this trial i'm like you don't need to name anyone like i i get it i'm just i'm exhausted

so uh they come back question two right before lunch but she's like but she's like you know what

my daughter really liked the alternate public defender's name she's considering danny is what

she's considering so after going back how much longer were they out another probably hour hour and a

half they come back saying we cannot come to a verdict on the carjacking we are eight four can we convict

on another charge which i'm like y'all they want to have one ufs no one wanted to give it um and the judge

wrote back no uh you must decide on the charges given to you so did they have a verdict on the

kidnap then they're they're hung on the carjack and then the kidnapped they're on the kidnap there's

no burden it didn't say okay then they come back after lunch and it's probably 3 30 uh third question

we are deadlocked on count one five seven and we have a verdict on count two well the numbers moved

a little they moved so we go up there i talked to my client you know she's like what does this mean

what does this mean and then i'm like i don't know like and then she's like is the five years still on the table and i was like

no like what i don't know i think she she was really emotional um so did the judge let him

deadlock and do the verdict the judge pulled them they all said that they could not come

to a verdict on count one uh so it was it was hung seven five seven for not guilty hey so he dismisses

count one and now i i feel like i'm okay like now at this point i'm like there's no way seven people

well i i i guess that's just what i thought maybe it was and i heard them laughing in the back

they come out is not guilty on count two for kidnap on the kidnap and my client is just like clinging to

my arm like sobbing into my arm so the judge like the judge dismissed the i'm sorry he declared a

mistrial at that point oh okay he didn't dismiss okay okay declared a mistrial i mean i guess great you

didn't get your way to get the 1085 yeah oh my gosh she would have had a conviction mm-hmm all right

i'm sorry i'm sorry i interrupted you on the on the sobbing part so your clients you're sobbing

she's hugging me you're hugging it was just like i felt just like a very human just like i felt just

like hurt the relief but she's still you know she's crying but then she's like what's what's happening

with the car jackie i'm like i'm trying to figure you know i'm like trying to get to that point so

the jurors leave and i asked the judge to dismiss on count one you know i say they couldn't brought any

other evidence you know she testified they had all the witnesses and again this judge was right for

this case he he agreed with me um and he dismissed it wow and your client walked out in a muumuu a free

woman nice work annalise thank you it was you talked to the jurors afterwards they all fled they did not

want to talk to you they did not not me they're like apd left yeah they were done um yeah it was

it was great um yeah the client uh the her son had had my google voice number she texted me like a

couple days later she was or maybe a week later she was just like can't tell you uh thank you so much i

i can't tell you what it you know means to me to have you fight for me like that um mr george let me

a car i'm starting work i was like what about mr george ever again no no he really shouldn't

also from now on let mr george get his own cars back

yeah so what should the title what should the title be for this episode like mr george's

neighborhood or or i don't know we'll think of something dan the man dan the man dan the man

i mean yeah um but the great trial though that's i mean that's such a great trial to go in like that

not knowing what's going to happen i think sometimes when we go to trial we know all the

facts and you know what you know you just gotta put your case on and like whatever happens happens

but to just kind of be open to whatever's going to happen and be in the moment to kind of just go

with the flow of things it's like it's hard to do and it's very nerve-wracking so a lot of props to

you annalise for that that was awesome that was yeah thank you it was it was a relief for diane and for

you another hometown hero i like it when we have our own people so annalise you've been a public defender

for how long um almost six years okay and why did you become a public defender we want to know i

became a public defender i know you asked this question i grew up with a brother with autism we

are 12 months and 12 days apart we are so close in age he is the light of my life and i think growing

up i was really in tune to inequities and how some people you know are going to need help uh

in life they're more vulnerable to things my faith uh i view people you know my faith dictates that

everybody has dignity and inherent worth and i think in our system um our clients are not treated like

they have any worth or dignity or you know because of race or socioeconomic status or you know what

they've done in the past so at when i was a sophomore in college i interned at the public defender in santa barbara

i was in drug court all i did was take notes for the attorney and i thought what a cool job to help

people to protect people um yeah i i that's why i just grew up with that mindset and this job i think

fits that perfectly of being able to protect people every day sure here yeah well glad to have you on

our team annalise and um i know when i went back to trials recently i was they moved into compton the

felonies in my office was right around right around the corner from annalise and i never heard of her

or knew her but i always popped in and said hi to her she's always great to talk to so um it's great to

great to have you here and work with you every day so well thank you for having me if i had known you

you know hosted this podcast i would have been friendlier so you are suitably impressed now though

right oh my gosh over the moon yeah all right well thanks for being on the show and lauren as always

great to hang out with you and see you so great to see you nice to meet you annalise glad you're part of

the team bye guys bye everybody thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of another not guilty

shout out to daniel mark original ang theme music composer and mike grim for the remix and guess

what we'll be back in two weeks with another not guilty straight from the trenches