The Triple D Threat

There's no officer.

Because he knows he's lying.

He has to admit things.

If he was being honest, you're at a bar, you're drinking.

Of course you had more than one or two beers in four hours, right?

But why do you have to say that?

Because you're lying about everything.

That's why you're not mentioning the waitress, right?

That's not why you're mentioning being mad.

He has a guilty conscience.

You know he has a guilty conscience.

We're talking about reasonable doubt.

Where's the police officer?

Where are the other store employees?

If this was such a vicious attack with a bottle that shocked the senses,

that came out of nowhere, you have the entire restaurant here.

But they aren't.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty.

I'm David Moore, here along with my fellow public defenders,

presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection!

That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't.

I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not-guilties public defenders get on a daily basis.

In an unjust criminal system.

With a deck stacked against us.

Not guilty.

All right, all right.

Welcome to another episode of Another Not Guilty.

My name is Dallas Gutman.

I'm a public defender in good old Cincinnati, Ohio.

My name is Rachel McKay.

I'm a public defender as well.

I came up with Dallas in Cincinnati.

I'm currently actually in Puerto Rico, full disclosure.

But Dallas and I came up in Cincinnati together.

And we are here today with a throwback round two.

From one of our best guests of all time, Stanford Frazier, out of PG County, Maryland.

Let's go.

Stanford, you have a few new life updates.

Let's talk about that.

Yeah, yeah.

I got a four-month-old.

Exciting.

Exciting.

Oh, congrats.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, congrats.

Are you sleeping?

Last night was a little rough, but he's a solid sleeper.

Here and there.

Here and there.

Good.

That's good.

That's a blessing.

My brother has a little one and they haven't slept in four years.

No, or you will.

You will.

Other people don't, but you will.

No, yeah, you will.

What's the baby's name?

Well, his name is Stanford as well, so we call him Trey.

Okay.

All right.

And he's the third one.

Oh, Trey, because he's the Stanford Frazier the third.

Wow.

That's cool.

That's cool.

That is a powerful name.

Yeah, just go for it.

And then me and my wife, as a running joke, we always spell the Trey differently every week.

So, are they going to spell the Trey like nay?

So, like T-R-E-I-G-H, you know?

Oh, I like that too.

That's a good one happening this week.

And then, yeah.

What are the other ones?

So, you know, there's like, you know, there's T-R-E, T-R-E-Y.

Uh-huh.

There's T-R-A-Y, like a serving Trey.

Yeah, because obviously, you guys can join in.

You can join in.

Yeah.

There's T-R-E with the accent.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Then there's T-R-A-E, like Trey Young, who is now a Washington Wizard.

Okay.

You know, the little sports reference.

A-E.

And if listeners come up with more, you know, put it in the comments.

When you give a five-star review.

Submit your Trey spelling.

Yeah, submit your spelling.

Submit your Trey spelling.

To help us.

Because then we'll run out soon.

And that's not the only life update.

What's the other one?

The other one is I'm running for the Maryland House of Delegates.

It's our state house.

And yeah, I'm running for office.

All right.

Primary.

Let's go.

Primary June 23rd, 2026.

Get excited.

All right.

Primary June 23rd.

We're going to talk about your campaign a little bit later in the episode and kind of what your platforms you're running on and how you're planning on, you know, making Maryland a better place for all and using your public defender knowledge and mission and values to bring that to the house.

So I can't wait to talk to you about that a little bit later in the episode.

But first, I want to get to this not guilty you have for us today.

All right.

Let's get into it.

Yeah.

So what's your client charged with?

Yeah.

So this is my first jury trial story.

So my client is basically charged with assault in the second degree.

That's our misdemeanor assault.

We only have two in Maryland, as well as disorderly conduct.

Disorderly conduct carried a max 60 days in jail.

But then assault second degree, even though it's a misdemeanor, we have 10 year misdemeanors in Maryland.

So it carries up to 10 years in jail.

What?

In prison or jail?

Well, I guess prison.

If you get more than 18 months, it could be prison.

Yes.

Whoa.

Wait, misdemeanor assault in Maryland can carry a maximum of 10 years?

It's a weird system.

We have some misdemeanors that carry a large amount of penalties, but we also have like sentencing guidelines.

So if you're like, you know, if you don't have a record, your guidelines would be much, much lower than that.

So if you're just like constantly misdemeanorly assaulting people, they're like, all right, you gotta do 10.

I mean, yeah, potentially.

Whoa.

I know, I know.

That's shocking.

There's been some movement to add like an assault third degree.

So there's like more differentiation, right?

But it's never happened or it hasn't happened yet.

Hey, we'll get to that at the end, I bet.

There's a little teaser.

A little foreshadowing on that.

Exactly.

Okay.

So your client is in what kind of sentencing bracket?

Like what's your client facing?

Hmm.

I mean, he didn't have a record.

So I think he probably would have been facing like between like probation in one year.

But the allegations are that, you know, it was a, I guess, a dispute at like a, like one

of those restaurants that's like slash a bar that like maybe on the nights and weekends

sounds a little clubby and that like he allegedly broke a bottle over someone else's head because

he was drunk more or less.

This is a, this is classic misdemeanor shenanigans.

Classic.

A drunk person offends another drunk person and we get to criminal charges somehow.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So what's the state's theory of your case?

I mean, I think I gave it.

I think the state's theory is just that my client had too much to drink on, on, I don't

know, on $5 tequila night or something.

And in a rage, maybe just in sloppiness, like brutally attacks, right?

As they try to describe it.

Another person with a bottle, there's like injury, there's lots of blood, client gets arrested.

Okay.

So how do you meet your client?

So I can do, I have to do like a little background on Maryland.

So we have like two levels of the trial court, the district court and the circuit court.

And basically when cases that basically all misdemeanors more or less start in the district

court where you have nothing but bench trials, right?

So trials in front of a judge.

And what's interesting though, is that if you lose that bench trial, you can appeal de novo

to a jury trial in the circuit court, or if you like, don't really like what this, what's

about to happen in district court, you can, we call it a jury trial prayer.

If the maximum penalty of what you're facing is more than 90 days in jail, you can say,

you know what?

I want to skip this bench trial.

I want to go straight to a jury trial in the circuit court.

Does that, does that make sense?

Wow.

So you can do your bench trial, lose your bench trial and the appeal, like, are you then

automatically granted a jury trial or do you have to win, essentially win the appeal to

have a jury trial?

Automatic.

You just file a line of appeal if you want it, and then you can have a jury trial.

That seems efficient.

Okay.

Like what?

But it's like different in every jurisdiction because let's say you come into court, we

would never judicial shop.

But let's say it's a judge you don't want to have a trial in front of and you ask for

a jury trial prayer.

Yeah.

Like in Prince George's County, we have something called like CA Day, where basically every two

months or every six weeks, all the like criminal appeals or criminal jury trial prayers

are like handled on that one day.

Oh, okay.

So it's actually good for your clients then, this system.

I think so.

I think so.

Because even though if it's a lower level misdemeanor, you can't have a jury trial.

If you don't like where you're at, you can kind of get out of it.

You can ask for a jury trial, yeah.

Or sometimes, you know, sometimes you have arguments that are more legally tailored to

a judge, but sometimes you have an argument that maybe, you know, a repeat player would

be desensitized to, but 12 members, 12 of your peers, right?

That's what the constitution says, would understand that if it finds you not guilty.

The emotional argument.

Exactly.

Bring it to the box.

When the judge is too familiar, you bring it to the box.

Is this what your client availed himself of?

This prayer?

Yeah, so what's interesting is I didn't meet him until after he made this jury trial prayer.

And I think something happened in which he wasn't, like, doing the right things to apply

for a public defender.

So I think he made that jury trial prayer without a lawyer.

Himself?

Yes.

It's always so funny to me how clients know how to do stuff in court.

Yeah.

And then the background is, like, this was my first jury trial.

So, like, when you start, you do a lot of bench trials, or you can do a lot of bench

trials.

And the joke is, you can always fix any mistake you do, right?

So when I first started, I had a lot of trials.

But I was, like, 18 months in, and I hadn't had a jury trial yet.

So then my office was, like, assigning me cases that they really think had a strong chance

of being a jury trial on what we call CA Day.

Okay.

And this was one of them.

So that's kind of how you got there.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Okay.

So when you meet your client, is he out or in?

He's out.

Okay.

And he's out.

And what does he say about the case?

So I meet him, and then, you know, he's mostly Spanish-speaking, but speaks a little bit

of English.

And, you know, I speak some Spanish as well, so we communicate that way.

Sometimes we use the language line translator.

Sometimes I'm just speaking Spanish at him.

And he basically says, it's funny, we were talking, we were talking, I was trying to get

the story out.

He wasn't trying to say it at first.

But then he basically says, yeah, so I'm at this place, I'm at the lounge, I'm having

a good time.

But he said he's flirting with the waitress, the pretty waitress everybody likes, more or less.

Okay.

Okay.

And then...

The waitress, he is flirting with the waitress.

Yes, the waitress.

You know, like you, like movie scene walks in, the music, you know, slows down, the wind's

flowing.

That waitress.

She's backlit.

Yeah.

And he says he's having a good time, he's like a good flirt, you know, but he's doing

his drinks.

And then he says at one point, he like grabs her and does like a little, like, like a little

dance, does like a little salsa, you know, two-step with her for a moment.

And then like, I guess that was the line too far, and this other guy got like really

mad about like him, like...

Someone didn't take kindness.

Chatting.

Because he was also trying to, was he also trying to salsa with her and he got jealous?

I think my client just had the juice that night and everyone was like, no, I want, I want

the waitress.

Yeah.

Dang.

Okay.

All right.

Yeah.

She's the waitress for everyone.

So...

This does feel like the plot of a movie.

Then what happens?

So then, I mean...

Is this a weeknight?

I feel like this is a weeknight.

You know, this is, you know, just, you know, after work, get some drinks in, who knows,

right?

Yeah.

This does feel like weeknight shenanigans.

But my client basically says, this guy gets like really aggressive with him.

It's like threatening him, all these other things.

And then like basically comes at him, like he's about to attack him.

So my client gets the bottle and hits him with it to defend himself.

But he says the guy was like coming for him before he made those actions.

And that's the only reason he like grabbed the bottle and used it.

Okay.

Okay.

So, they're out of place.

It's the waitress.

The wind is blowing through her hair gently.

Client sees her.

Does a salsa two-step.

Basically.

Turns out she's the waitress for everyone.

Yes.

A third party who believes that she's the waitress for him gets upset.

Comes at client.

Maybe doesn't technically touch client yet.

Client thinks he's gonna get something.

Pulls the bottle.

Hits third party.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Okay.

And we're rolling.

We're rolling.

Action.

I hear it.

I'm listening to him.

And you know what?

I'm like, I believe you.

And if I believe you, a jury's gonna believe you.

Let's do this.

Okay.

Let's do it.

Every public defender's license.

Yeah.

Do you have to file a notice of self-defense?

Is this like an affirmative defense where you have to put the state on notice?

Or do you just roll with it?

I just roll with it.

No notice of self-defense.

Okay.

Okay.

Cool.

So then what's your next move?

What kind of discovery do you get?

Yeah.

So because I got this in this process, I was like, all right.

So I had the police report.

And then for a while, I basically had nothing.

I think I eventually get a 911 call.

But there's like, I emailed the prosecutor like, hey, is there surveillance footage?

Basically, don't get a response for a long period of time.

I'm like, oh, is there any body camera like catching how he looks afterwards?

And this is my first one.

So, you know, I've been doing it since August 2017.

So when I had this case, it was before basically now like basically 90% of officers, 95% of officers have body cams.

Back then, it was like 10, 20%.

So there's no body cam either.

Wow.

So I had nothing.

Yeah.

Basically.

You just have, it's just basically a he said, he said.

Yeah, he said, he said.

At this point.

And then there's like, maybe I have like three photos of like face with like a wound and like a little bit of blood.

Not a little bit, but like blood trickling to the side.

So I got that.

Of the alleged victim.

Okay.

That difference is so interesting to me that most of us who are younger attorneys only have practiced in a world with body camera.

But most attorneys practiced a ton of time where there was no body camera or it wasn't expected.

Yeah.

Which, I mean, in this case, I don't know how much that'll change.

But generally, that would be just a completely different style of practice.

Yeah.

Okay.

But so no body camera here.

Photos.

Police report.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

Photos.

Police report.

I will say even in a simpler quote unquote case like this, like if you have body camera,

you have like a witness statement from the, from the state's main completing witness.

It's something to impeach on.

Yeah.

It's, you kind of are like free flowing.

Like you have what the, you know, prosecuting witness or whatever your jurisdiction calls it

in the, hopefully a witness statement in the police report.

And that's it.

You know, you don't have how they looked, how they were acting, you know, maybe a little

side comment they said, maybe pick something up.

It's just so much more information when you have body cam.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Especially in a case where both parties were probably drunk.

That's something that a lot of times doesn't make the police report.

And then you see the alleged victim on body camera and you're like, you're drunk.

Exactly.

Yeah.

You're wasted.

Show me some slurring words so I can show it to the jury.

Let's, let's, let's contextualize this for everyone.

And then the other thought is like, I, when you have like, it's secondhand when the officer

is writing their police report.

So I like never really cross someone on what an officer wrote.

They said, it's like, yeah.

Right.

You can like kind of cross the officer, but it's not as strong.

Was there an affidavit?

Um, did he write an affidavit or anything?

Yeah.

So it's just really not that much.

It's hard to, you know, undermine their credibility without that.

Exactly.

Exactly.

What is your, so when you meet your client, how does he feel?

How's he doing?

So the background is he's a green card holder, right?

Okay.

So, I mean, he's kind of thinking, oh, he's like worried about like, what would any kind

of deal do for his immigration status?

And then he's kind of saying like, okay, yeah, I hit him with the bottle, but like the guy

was coming at me.

I shouldn't, I, why am I in trouble more or less?

Okay.

Those, those are kind of his thoughts.

And then did you advise him on kind of what, like a guilty finding or a plea would, how

that would impact his immigration status?

Yeah.

So we're blessed, you know, we have some immigration lawyers.

Well, you know, Maryland's a statewide system.

So we have like about, I think now we have around two like immigration attorneys that know

that we call cremigation, right?

And those things.

So there's like a little worksheet that they have and then you can like call and set up

an appointment to like get more details if you can't read the worksheet or if you forget

the last CLE training you did.

Exactly.

I was like, yeah, I don't remember the CLE.

So let me just like set up that meeting.

I had that meeting and it was kind of like, based on my conversation, I was like, you

know what?

This seems like I got to try this case.

I don't really want to like jeopardize your status in any way.

Yeah.

And was there going to be some sort of offer that could have been safer for client or was

it going to be, I guess the term of ours, moral turpitude?

Yeah.

Was any offer still going to be morally turpitudinous?

Yeah, I think.

So I think for this case, the concern wasn't moral turpitude.

It was like whether this would be considered like an aggravated felony.

And because Maryland only has two levels of assault, like, right, like would this type

of assault be the kind of like assault that would meet that?

And it's like, oh, maybe even unclear how like the federal fourth circuit would interpret

it.

We're like, oh, we're just like, you know, eyes are glazing over.

We're really getting deep into the weeds.

But because there's uncertainty, I was like, yeah, yeah, because the immigration courts,

they do interpret state law sometimes differently than the states interpret it.

So you got to be careful with that.

OK, so you're feeling like we got to try this.

You got to try this.

Yes.

You know, I think I like never really got an offer from the state until the day of.

But I tried to proactively make an offer.

OK, what did you offer?

I think I even argued against myself.

I think my first email, I was like, all right, he'll do like 24 hours of community service

and like eight hours of anger management to put it on something called the state docket.

That's like our inactive docket.

It can just be like state general.

It's inactive for three years and then you're allowed to get it expunged.

Or it could be something we call a state with conditions, where if you complete the conditions

in a certain period of time, the case is dismissed.

So it's like kind of like a diversion.

It's like it's like diversion program, but it's like it's kind of like almost a little

free folding in which the attorneys can maybe fashion something that they agree with.

So it doesn't have to be like a specific.

There are like some specific diversion programs, but this is a little more flexible.

That's cool.

Yeah, we don't we have diversion, but we don't have that.

Like if you came up with a DIY creative sentence, they would be like, what?

But that's.

They'd be like, no.

So then what I think I know the answer to this, but what was their answer to your offer?

Literally, he didn't respond.

The prosecutor didn't respond to that email.

Oh, just like did it respond.

So he goes to you.

So then like the case is set like on a Monday.

Maybe then like the Thursday was set.

I like emailed again.

Like, how about this?

How about this?

24 hours community service and just basically like screaming into the void.

Like, OK, let's do this.

This guy's inbox is like Stanford.

I'm hearing a no.

Let's try again.

Well, you know, I'm always down to try.

So at this point, I had a lot of bench trials and like, you know, you want the jury trial experience.

That's why they give me these cases.

But like, you don't want to do that at the expense of the client with the immigration issues.

I was like, all right, this isn't something you should.

Even if you look at the like most favorable to the state, this isn't something you should do.

But like, should you like lose a green card over this?

Like, can something be worked out like this person?

I think there's something that can be worked out short of like, you know, criminal convictions.

Yes.

So I was trying.

That is client-centered.

I was trying to do that.

And it wasn't.

So I was like, all right, what about this?

You know, he'll go to like instead of eight hours community service.

I mean, instead of like, you know, an eight hour anger management course.

Or just no, I don't think I said the hour time.

I said, what about he'll do eight AA meetings on top of community service?

That was like my mind.

Because you know, this happened at a bar.

So maybe alcohol is involved.

Maybe.

Yeah, just maybe.

No, I mean, maybe not.

Just guessing.

Just guessing.

Yeah, Stanford's sentence is like 30 hours of yoga.

Yeah.

It just keeps getting, you're just trying new things over and over again with no response.

So did they ever respond to you?

Or did you just see them at trial?

I mean, that, with the offers, it was to see them at trial.

Just see them at trial.

Okay.

So then do you do any of your own investigation before you get to trial?

Yes, I did.

So we didn't have, this was, don't want to get in trouble.

We did not have an office investigator at the office at the time.

And like, even now, to be honest, our office investigator probably wouldn't do this kind

of case.

Maybe it was like summertime.

We had investigative interns, but like, at the low level, you know, they got, we got

murderers and like armed robbers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They have bigger fish to fry.

Exactly.

You know, but we have like investigator interns that we could like, not invest, like panel,

like people that you could get approved.

You could get like three hours approved for, like this type of misdemeanor, maybe you can

get like three hours approved, you know?

But I was like, I don't need that.

I'll go to the restaurant bar myself.

Go Stanford, go.

So, you know, I went there.

And so you did?

Yeah, I did.

Yeah.

And let me see.

Okay.

You know, it wasn't that fruitful.

When I got there, there wasn't any, there was no surveillance footage of the event.

It had been months, you know?

And at that point, I mean, like how long after the event was it that you went there?

I mean, I don't know exactly, but it was like more than three months, maybe like six

ish.

Cause like he had a case.

I mean, there's no way it still exists after four or three, six months.

Cause it was in district court first and then got moved, right?

Then he asked for the jury dropper and then he came to me.

So, you know, by then definitely months had passed.

So there was nothing.

And that's kind of the issue with these long, these long like processes where these clients

go through like a couple of attorneys first before they get to the, the main attorney who's

going to work is that you kind of lose the opportunity on these like time sensitive discovery

issues.

But I digress.

No, absolutely.

So you go there.

There's no, not fruitful.

Not fruitful.

I mean, you know, I get my chips and salsa, you know, I got, I got a chicken quesadillas.

How was it?

It was really good.

I was like, yeah.

Did you see the waitress?

You know, I, I, I, I don't know.

I don't think so.

I didn't have a photo.

Okay.

Okay.

But you know.

You would know if you saw her.

I think so.

Yeah.

It sounds like those who see her know they have seen her.

That's true.

I didn't have any of those moments, you know?

Okay.

Okay.

So she wasn't working.

She wasn't working that day.

And you got chips, you got salsa.

You did not get surveillance.

No surveillance.

You.

I like, I don't know.

Sometimes it's like when you do, that's the one thing, a good thing about investigators,

they can do it better.

Cause like, I don't know how to like ask questions about like something that happened months ago

that was like an arrest without sounding myself like a cop.

Like I'm trying to have you dark.

And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm really not.

I'm trying to get information.

And it's just like, you're like, where were you the night of?

And like, I speak Spanish, but you know, I've always been working on my Spanish and you

know, my Spanish is better today than it was then too.

So I'm also like, you know, trying to like speak and that is maybe it's like a language

barrier as well.

So like, I'm sounding like a cop or a narc and I'm like using broken Spanish.

Okay.

Yeah.

And your shirt says FBI.

Yeah, exactly.

My shirt says FBI, you know.

So then that doesn't really turn up anything.

Did you do anything else before trial?

Of course, you know, I got the story once, but I think I like prepped my client like twice,

you know, with like, all right, this is how we're going to do direct.

And, you know, this is obviously true, but because it's a self-defense case, you got to

say like, you got to let the jury know, how did you feel?

And did you feel like threatened or you were in a dangerous situation or that you're physically

or in jeopardy when he was coming towards you, threatening you, which like, I don't know,

it sounds dumb, but sometimes people say, yeah, he got like really mad and approached

me, but you have to like express those things because that's like the self-defense instruction.

Those are the elements you have to meet.

Yeah.

And so you're, you're, you're prepping your, your client to testify because you don't think

that you're going to get the instruction otherwise.

Exactly.

Cause it's like, I mean, you have a witness list, but at this point it's like, I don't

have the waitress.

And I, when I went there, I didn't really talk to anyone who could like tell me anything

about the event.

The only way I get self-defense is through my client's testimony.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And can you talk about that more?

What do you have to establish in Maryland to get the instruction?

And then what is the instruction?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm going to like now try to filibuster and try to go to my Westlaw login so I can find

the exact jury instruction.

You don't have to say it exactly, but like generally, as your client, like what are you,

what basic elements are you trying to make sure get in there?

Like imminency or like reasonable fear or like.

Yeah.

Stuff like that.

I mean, basically you have to like believe that you're in jeopardy, you or others, because

there's like defensive others as well.

Right.

Which is actually a separate one or even property is like in physical jeopardy of someone else

that you didn't like start the situation of physical jeopardy, or if you did, you didn't

elevate it to the necessary.

Well, I guess this isn't a case, but like lethal force, but that's not necessarily, that's

not applicable per se in this case.

And then that a reasonable person would have believed like this level of fear, like the

force necessary was needed to match what you felt or what you like harm that you perceived

more or less without pulling up my Westlaw.

And because it's an affirmative defense, you have to put that evidence on, or you have to,

that evidence has to be elicited by you that your client didn't start it and that he was

in reasonable fear.

Let me, let me not mess up cases, you know, we're not in front of a court, but I guess

I would have to put on, but like, there's like, I think there's like a case where like

the state put on someone's like, you know, statement, right?

Like an interview statement, not in my case, but in the statement, there were elements

of self-defense.

So without the client testifying, the judge didn't give the self-defense instruction and

the court kind of like the appellate court kind of reversed to say, no, that's like, that's

like stuff was put into evidence of self-defense.

So it doesn't necessarily have to be me putting it on is what I would say.

Okay.

In this case.

Yes.

Yes, you had to.

Okay.

So then now we're getting into trial.

Basically.

Yeah.

I'm trying to see if I, yeah, yeah.

I think we're just, at this point, we're just getting into trial.

How's your client feeling before trial?

He's like cool, but nervous.

Like, you know, he had never been arrested before, never been through a criminal case

before.

So he has no record.

No record.

He did like one or two nights, you know, before he got, he bonded out.

So he's nervous and he understands because, you know, I did, I consulted with immigration,

with our immigration attorney.

He knows that this has like potential, like serious impacts on his life.

So he does definitely nerves.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And then it's funny, you know, usually say, oh, I have a lot of experience.

Right.

But then this client is like, okay, how many jury trials have you done?

Have you done a jury trial before?

And I'm like, I have started a jury trial before.

Of course.

Of course.

I have done half, half of them.

But how many?

I've done some.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just, I was just like, you know, don't, don't ask me that.

Just, let's just go.

So then how are you, since this is your like, you know, half, you've only done half, how

are you feeling going into this jury trial?

Oh, I forgot to mention.

So I did, we do have something called like CA Mentors, right?

And they're like more experienced felony attorneys in the office who like, they're like, they're

assigned like a couple of attorneys to mentor for like these jury trials if like something's

going to happen.

So I met with him, you know, this is what I'm thinking and I'm going to like go over this.

And I was like, you know, even though it's judge led here in Maryland, I was like, let's

go over the voir dire practice just, just one more time, just to get me more comfortable.

So I did that a couple of times with him, but he was kind of just like, oh, but you've

had like, you know, what'd you, he's like, I mean, at this point you probably had a hundred

bench trials.

And I was like, yeah, but this is a little different, you know?

So that's how I was feeling.

Okay.

So you were just getting help preparing and, you know, trying to get all your ducks in

a row.

And is he going to sit with you or is it just you and client and that's it?

So every CA Mentor is different.

So some of them would sit with you.

He was more like, you don't need me to sit with you.

He was like, fly.

Yeah.

He'll be like, I'll be in the courtroom.

I'll be in the back, you know?

I'll like text you or something.

But you got it.

That's a savage when older attorneys do that.

Yeah.

Like, you got this.

And later in the story, I have an even funnier tidbit about, about this, my CA Mentor for

this case.

So it's good.

All right.

Another foreshadow.

All right.

So.

So I had a couple of other cases and then I go to the courtroom with the prosecutor who

has like, is 10.

And I came to that courtroom last time.

By the time I was there, he had like two cases left of me and someone else.

And then it was me.

And then it was me.

So, well, but at that point I come up to him again and I'm like, hey, hey, you know,

you didn't respond to my emails, but like, all right, what if like 12 AA sessions,

you know what I mean?

Yeah.

You know, just one last.

And he was like, no.

Well, it was funny.

Well, so even the, so my CA Day Mentor, he was, he is of Latin descent and that's like,

you know, he's a Nazi, he's a fluent Spanish speaker.

So even, so when the, you know, States, you know, complaining witness came and he like

chatted him up.

Yeah.

You know, tell him, hey, I'm a defense attorney, you have to talk to me, but chatting him up.

And he was like, and he kind of was like, oh, I'm not trying to get this guy in like

trouble, trouble.

You know what I mean?

And he was like, I mean, if you're cool with this death, then I think it would really

help with the prosecutor being cool with this like diversion type of thing.

And he was like, yeah, I mean, blah, blah, blah.

I mean, like I kind of talked him into it a little bit.

Or he's like, no, I kind of get the, I mean, I guess you've come from certain communities,

you understand immigration consequences.

He wasn't trying to do something that harsh, even though he was like mad about what happened.

So he was like kind of there and he's like, yeah, he's okay with it.

So he was like, all right, maybe this will happen.

And like the prosecutor was like almost there, but then like, he like, it's like, it's like

he forgot the facts of the case.

I like read the police report again and said, no, he hit someone with a bottle.

I need jail time.

It's like what he said to me.

Okay.

So here we go.

So you're at the CA day and your case is going and you're ready to pick a jury.

So what kind of jurors are you looking for?

You know, like I said, this is now my second time.

I'm going to be honest with you.

I had no real thoughts.

I guess I just wanted people, I guess the victim and my client would vote Latino, but I was like,

hmm, okay.

I guess like no clear biases against like, you know, Spanish speakers or like, you know,

immigrants.

You're looking for people who, you know, aren't biased against Spanish speakers, but you're

not, this is judge led.

So you're not really doing it yourself.

Yeah, I'm not really doing it myself.

Was there anything that happened in Voidir that's notable?

We don't have to go through the whole like.

Not at all.

And because of the type of case, I had four strikes, the state had four strikes.

So it was like, you know what I mean?

It was over in a snap.

Do you like your jury at the end?

I think so.

It was definitely more women than men.

And I was trying to think like, man, statistically, I feel like men are more likely to get into

a bar fight and understand.

But I was like, whatever.

I think it was a good jury.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess nothing you can do about it then.

Okay.

All right.

We have a jury.

All right.

So you've been here before.

Yes.

You're here again.

We're getting into opening.

Is client cool at this time?

Or is he getting more nervous?

The one thing I forgot to say is, you know, so because it's a, you know, it's a jury trial,

we have like a trial closed closet.

But client was like, I mean, client was probably like literally like same age as me, similar

body type.

So when I was going through him, I like didn't find any clothes that I liked the morning of.

So I literally, I had like my backup suit, like in my office.

And I was like, hey, just put this on.

Oh, perfect.

And he fit.

It looked better on him than it ever did on me.

So he's looking fly.

He's feeling good.

Yeah, exactly.

It fits everyone.

So let's talk about opening then.

State opens first.

State opens first.

I mean, it was just like, this was out of nowhere.

You know, he was drunk and he just hits him with a bottle.

You get cut.

Think about a bottle and how much it hurts.

It's like one thing it'd be like a fist fight, but like he brought weapons into this.

Like that's kind of how he's like talking about it.

Okay.

Okay.

I don't think you can say that, but.

All right.

How was your opening?

So, you know, I'm like, I'm trying to do this by the book.

So, oh, the other thing, because my client looks really nice.

The one thing I think it's important that like the, you know,

state's complaining witness, he was like a beefy guy and had a neck tattoo.

Wait, the state's witness?

Yeah, the victim.

A legit victim.

Okay.

Oh, neck tattoos are always.

Okay, okay.

Prejudicial.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So.

Vintage 403 is a neck tap.

I know.

My theme was very clear.

I used the alliteration and I was like, my client, you know,

got involved with a drunk, dangerous, and deadly individual

and had no choice but to defend himself.

You know?

That's right.

Classic.

Triple D.

Not to be confused with diners, drive-ins, and dives.

Yeah, that is very classic opening 101.

Yeah, yeah.

Drunk, deadly, dangerous.

Let's go.

Clean, perfect.

It's a staple because it works, you know?

And I think true.

So, who's the state's first witness?

So, this is where the case got interesting.

Basically, I thought I was prepared for like an officer, right?

And then, maybe it's not even a great child story because, like, there's no officer.

Okay.

It's just the alleged victim.

That's it.

That's the only witness they call.

Yeah.

Whoa.

So, you do all this prep.

Your CA mentor says, you should write some of this down.

You go, no, I'm good.

He goes, no, you should write some of it down.

So, you write it all down.

And it turns out you didn't need to because there's only one witness.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

So, let's talk about the witnesses direct.

Nektat's direct.

Yeah, I mean, Nektat.

Yeah.

So, Nektat, I mean, it's more than a story.

He says he's there.

You know, he's having a good time.

You know, he does say, and he kind of says, like, it's out of nowhere.

He didn't say anything to the guy.

He wasn't doing to the guy.

But then, the guy at one point was just looking at him angry and then hits him with the bottle.

Which, you know, hey, maybe that's his truth.

But I think part of it is also, like, well, why would he do that?

Like, you're just trying to say that you're just having a random time at a bar and a guy just gets angry.

And it's, like, you had no interactions with him at that night or anything.

So, that's, like, one of the notes I had.

But that was.

Yeah, that omission already creates a credibility issue.

That was, like, kind of my thought.

So, I was like, okay, okay, maybe there's something I can work with here.

No mention of the waitress.

Which, come on.

Oh.

No mention.

Everyone knows the waitress was there.

Yeah, come on.

Come on, guys.

So, then it was my turn to do a direct.

I mean, a cross.

Yeah.

And then, you know, it's not like a Perry Mason moment, but I did get the point where I was, like, you know, this is a bar.

You were drinking, right?

And then he said something, like, this actually happened late in the night.

So, he had been there maybe, like, four or five hours.

And I was, like, how many drinks did you have?

And he said, one beer.

Maybe two.

And I was, like, in four?

I was, like, for four hours?

Yeah.

And I was, like, okay.

So, I was, like, all right.

I got one.

And, you know, I wrote that down in your notes.

Yeah.

So, like, I'm already.

So, like, I'm just going to just call him a liar straight up.

That's, like, my thinking, like, when I get to closing, I'm just going to be calling him a liar.

This is unbelievable.

And I think that was, like, maybe the highlight.

Oh, I do the, you know, how tall are you?

How much do you weigh?

You know, that type of stuff to try to, like.

Oh, to show, like, the space.

Yeah, yeah.

Because he's a stalky guy.

I was, like, yeah, that's better.

Yeah.

I don't think my client could have won a fistfight with him, you know?

Right.

That's why he brought the bottle.

He had, he, that's the only way he could protect himself from this, you know, bodybuilder.

Exactly.

So, that's, like, the main point of your cross was that you kind of caught him in a lie or

just an unbelievable story.

So, now we're trying to undermine his credibility.

And so, then, what, state rests?

Yeah.

All right.

Were you.

Okay.

And you were surprised by that?

I was, I, like, really thought the officer, like, I mean, I have a police report.

There's no, you know, there's no body cam, because there's no body cam at the time.

But I was, I was, I was prepared for, like, the officer who wrote the report.

And then I had random miscellaneous officer, just like, you know, because, like, more than

one officer usually shows up, right?

Right.

And, obviously, maybe, they're probably not bringing five squad cars for this, right?

And, like, who cares?

That would just have been repetitive.

But I was expecting one or two officers plus them.

The state, I guess the state tried to get, like, in the 911 call, but it was, like, from

someone at the store happened afterwards.

I kept that out.

Like, it's, you know, hearsay doesn't, I mean, there's no one to cross, hearsay and

confrontation clause.

It was how I kept out the 911 call.

So, who called 911?

I, like, I don't even.

It wasn't the PW, or it wasn't the.

It wasn't the complaining witness.

I, like, can't remember, maybe, like, a store employee was just, like, oh, this event happened.

How were they, who were they going to try to get that in through?

Just, like, as a certified business record.

And I'm, like, okay, so, yeah.

Oh.

It's authenticated, but you still have the hearsay and confrontation issues.

Confrontation clause, so you have a right to confront any witnesses against you.

And this is, like, basically a witness giving testimony that you're not allowed to cross-examine,

right?

So, that was, like, simple.

Yeah.

Doesn't get in.

You know what?

You know what that makes me think?

It makes me think that the prosecutor thought he had an easy win.

So, he just, like, didn't do a lot of work.

Well, I'm not going to disparage anyone.

I'll say, as you said before, we don't have to file anything for self-defense.

So, maybe he wasn't thinking it's a defense attorney, but, like, how can he explain this?

There's no evidence that my, you know, the alleged complaining witness hit him first or

anything like that.

This is an open and shut case.

I think that was probably the prosecutor's perspective.

And sometimes they're in a situation where they're not going to offer anything, and they

also barely know the case, and they kind of also just sit down and do a trial.

So, sometimes it's as unplanned as that.

Yeah.

And that's just who they had that day.

Yeah.

All right.

So, then, they rest.

Any mid-trial motions?

Yeah.

So, I do buy, you know, a motion for judgment of acquittal, and I get it on the disorderly

conduct.

And then, you know, because I was kind of like, oh.

So, what's the reasoning behind that?

I mean, I basically like the commotion of the bottle thing, like, disturbed the people

who had to watch it, more or less like a public disturbance type of disorderly conduct.

Okay.

But, yeah, they can't get the elements.

I guess they're like, this guy talked about how, like, he was, like, you know, hurt from

an assault, but didn't really say he was disturbed.

And there was no, like, there's no civilians that testified.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Maybe the judge was just liking me that day and was like, all right.

And he's like, you know, 60-day offense, so who cares?

And I got MJ away on that.

All right.

Okay.

So, now we're one down, one to go.

Exactly.

I get that it's intuitive that a disorderly would be part of an assault, but, at least

for us, it sounds like you too.

It sounds like you couldn't acquit the disorderly because they, like, didn't get, like, public

disturbance, even though we're still arguing about, like, whether someone got hit by a bottle.

Right.

We can't infer that the public was disturbed.

I mean, who knows?

Maybe they just kind of went along their business.

Like, that could be true.

We don't know.

Yeah.

Maybe the public was neutral or into it.

Yeah.

Maybe it was bottle-smashing night at the pub, right?

Who knows?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, defense case, and it's like, all right, client.

You know, you do the, you know, you don't have to testify, you know, outside the presence

of the jury, you have the right, you have your constitutional right.

I want to go and testify.

All right.

I call client to the stand.

All right.

Let's go.

So, let's talk about your direct.

I mean, I think my direct was good.

I wanted to be honest.

So, my client, you know, said he had three to four fears, right?

Yeah.

He talked about it, and he mentioned the, like, he, like, mentioned the waitress, and

it was kind of funny, because even in Spanish, like, I understood it, but you could, like,

you could see his, like, what's, you could see the smile, but on his face.

His whole face brightened when he talks about the flirtation, and, like, he even did, like,

he did, like, a, he did a, like, yeah, I got to dance it, and then he's, like, he's,

like, doing a hand, like, spin, like, while testifying.

Yeah, like, motioning the salsa dancing.

Yeah, he's motioning.

It's, like, oh, he was, he was definitely still proud of these moments.

Yeah, he's in that moment.

He was so proud.

He's, like, maybe someone in this jury knows who I'm talking about, and they will respect

me.

So, I thought it was good.

He was, like, honest about how much he drank, and you could, like, see the emotion of, like,

the waitress.

It's, like, all right, this is believable, like, how, like, much he's, like, big upping

this moment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

His love is palpable.

Yeah, yeah.

Then he testified about the guy who was, like, angry, and, like, was threatening him, and, like,

doing all this stuff.

And the whole time, he's, like, looking very, very well put together in a suit, you know?

Right, in your suit.

Yeah, in my suit.

And I think it came off, like, I was, like, wow.

You know, you prep, you prep clients a lot.

And no matter how many times you prep them or what you say, you know, you have no idea

how they're going to testify.

It's, it's definitely a leap of faith.

Yeah.

I mean, especially, especially during Cross.

But, yeah, you're just, like, okay, we'll see how this is going to go.

What did he, what did he say the threats were?

Man, this is, like, honestly, I was trying to think, I can't even remember specifically,

but, like, cursing, definitely, like, some curse words.

Like, there were definitely, like, not even curse words in Spanish, but, like, curse phrases

in Spanish, you know what I mean?

Like, Spanish idioms of threats, I guess, that he, like, mentioned.

And if the guy was, like, coming towards them, like, hey, I'm, you, you know, I'm about

to, you know, swing in his fist and, like, stuff.

So, I think he was saying, oh, that's my girl.

Why are you touching her?

Like, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to show you you can't touch her.

Stuff like that.

Stuff like that.

Okay, cool.

And so, the, how did he do, um, on cross?

Okay, on cross.

Honestly, the cross was great.

I don't know, even though I kind of opened on it, right?

I opened on self-defense a bit.

I guess the prosecutor wasn't, like, I don't know, maybe he thought just, like, he didn't,

thought my client wasn't believable.

So, he's, like, he's, like, he was, like, trying to get him to, I was, like, oh, he threatened

you?

Yes.

Well, you didn't call the police.

No.

You know what I mean?

It's, like, that was, like, those kind of, like, questions.

Yeah.

Where, like, you couldn't, like, yeah, I mean, the.

Yeah, whatever, yeah.

What am I supposed to say to that?

So, I don't think, I don't, my client was not hurt at all on cross, was my perception

of it.

You didn't think it was that effective?

Yeah, I don't think so at all.

At this point, how do you feel about your case?

I'm feeling really good, but I also think it's going to come down, I was like, all right,

we got to, like, wrap it up with a neat bow.

Like, you know, we got to get the.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so you're not, like, celebrating just quite yet.

I'm not celebrating, but, you know, between not calling the officers, right, and then,

you know, necktap versus suit, you know, I got a hammer.

Because even though I think it's a big thing, him talking about the alcohol, I have to explain

why it's important that, like, he, why him undermining how much or undercounting how much

he's drinking, like, relates to, like, everything about the case.

So, I have to, like, connect those things during my closing.

So, that's, like, what I'm thinking about.

Okay, so, yeah, let's talk about clothes then.

So, state clothes is first, yeah?

Mm-hmm.

How, what's their clothes like?

I mean, I think that, well, no, not a thing.

They do, like, you know, they do the whole, this is simple, they do a PowerPoint, but it's

only, like, you know, three slides, because it's only one element of one charge left.

Right, right, they had to cancel their disorderly conduct one or delusion.

Oh, wait, I didn't mention they, yeah, they introduced a photo.

So, the PowerPoint is, like, photo, elements, photo, right?

Right.

That's basically what the PowerPoint is.

And he's like, yeah, come on, this is open and shut.

You know, we don't hit people with bottles.

It was that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Okay, and then how about yours?

Honestly, I was a, this is my first clothing to a jury.

Right, yes, right.

Yeah, yeah, I, like, I had opened before, you know, I had picked a jury.

You've gone farther than you've ever gotten at this point, you know?

So, you're ready, you're ready to go.

You know, I was, you know, humbly, I, like, think I did an amazing job.

Like, I was hitting the, you know, the drunk, like, being dangerous, like, hard.

But, no, actually, one of my colleagues, they still mention it, that, like, because, like,

the waitress thing, I literally, like, while in front of the jury, I was like, imagine

a good night.

Imagine, you know, you do a little by-law.

Oh, you did a little salsa dance?

I did a salsa dance in front of the jury, right?

That's part of, like, and I'm saying, I'm like, I'm like, I'm using my body to reenact

the whole night, like, being my client, and then seeing this guy coming at him.

You, like, went and got the four person and did a one-to-two.

Yeah, yeah, you know?

You could talk to him.

Dipped him.

You got an objection.

You know, the steps were okay, but when I dipped, it was like, objection, right?

No.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

That was a bridge too far.

No, but, like, I was, like, harping that, and then I was like, you know, why is it important?

Because he knows he's lying, right?

He has to omit things, because if he had to, if he was being honest, you're at a bar, you're

drinking, of course you had more than one or two beers in four hours, right?

But why do you have to say that?

Because you're lying about everything.

That's why you're not mentioning the waitress, right?

That's not why you're mentioning being mad.

And you have to see, he has a guilty conscience.

You know he has a guilty conscience.

And then I said, we're talking about reasonable doubt, where's the police officer?

Where are the other store employees?

If this was such a vicious attack with a bottle that, that shocked the senses, that came out

of nowhere, you'd have the entire restaurant here.

But they aren't, because they know my client acted in self-defense.

You know what I mean?

Just doing that type of stuff.

And I thought, yeah, I thought it was powerful.

Nice.

I'm convinced.

I'm convinced.

Amazing.

So.

Yeah, that's great.

So then, obviously that was effective, but did the state do their closing?

They did a rebuttal.

And then.

What was that like?

Honestly, well, I don't mean me, but my perception was, it was like panicky.

Like, I felt like I did a really good job.

And the state felt like they had to like, wow, oh wait, I'm about to lose.

And I had to try to like.

This is like the first time that they're even considering losing.

Like they've kind of phoned it in a little bit.

They don't have their, any other witnesses.

They, you know, just have like a three slide PowerPoint.

Now they're like, oh, it's, it's, it's too, it's like the 11th hour really.

But so yeah, tell us a little about, a little bit about this panicky.

Yeah.

So, I mean, it was like longer than his closing, but not like strategically, just like, okay,

I'm going to, it felt to me like I'm going to try to throw everything in the kitchen sink

to try to like get this case back.

Yeah.

And then he had one line that was maybe like, what's it called?

Objectional, but I didn't.

It's like, oh yeah, if this is really self-defense, you know, he was arrested.

He went to jail.

The victim wasn't arrested.

He didn't go to jail.

And I was like thinking in my head, like, I mean, my client is here, so he was arrested.

But like, can you really say that in a closing?

Whatever.

Right.

Yeah.

I'm also trying to like, like cite why you can't say that, but you just can't.

Yeah.

Like, I don't have a case, but I'm like, I don't, I don't think that's proper.

Right.

I'm not going to object because like, I don't really like objecting it over to the closings,

but I don't know what's happening here.

I don't like this.

Well, what it really comes down to is he's shifting the burden.

Yes.

He's saying because that person was arrested, he has to prove that he's innocent.

I think so.

I think so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That would be the way to argue.

It's the vibe behind it.

But like you said, first jury trial, I was not prepared to make that argument, but like

it definitely still to this day, it's like, I could have objected to that.

I just, I should have said something.

Sometimes in trial, I'll be like, wait, was that objectionable?

And then by the time that I've thought it through, the moment's over.

And I'm like, okay.

I know it's, yeah, it's a fine line because your body's just like, objection.

And then the judge is like, grounds.

I'm like, wait, what?

And you're like, objection.

Hang on, judge.

I just need a minute to think why.

Okay.

So he's panicking.

He's spiraling.

He's lost the plot.

He's making accusations.

He's shifting the burden.

And then the jury has it.

So how does your client feel?

I think at this point, he's feeling good.

He's feeling confident.

Yeah, he's, he's watched you do your magic up there and you're feeling good too.

Yeah, I'm feeling good.

You know, you know, I was like, all right, but my dance practice, my salsa lessons paid

off.

And yeah, what about your CA?

Does your CA mentor feeling good?

He's feeling good.

And then here's the best part.

He says, oh, Stanford, by the way, I got a dentist appointment this afternoon.

So I'm going to head out.

And you're like, wait, my life's working.

This is the teaser.

So, you know, jury questions?

Yeah.

Just got to handle those on my own if they come up, right?

Just got to do it on your own.

Right.

So were there any jury questions?

Got to clean those teeth.

Yeah.

He's like, I got a teeth cleaning.

It's hard to get a dentist appointment in his defense.

It's really hard to get a dentist appointment.

To be fair, it's really hard to get into the dentist.

Like, if you need to go right away.

He made that appointment like seven months prior.

At least.

He probably made that appointment when Stanford was in high school.

That's right.

So then were there jury questions?

There were.

Oh, yes.

This is where I lost confidence.

I think the jury question was like, what's the like amount of jail?

What's the like maximum jail time for second degree assault?

Oh.

It surprised me that we don't see that question more.

I guess judges are good about saying that you can't ask that.

But I'm surprised judges don't at least try more often.

Just ask what the penalty is.

Right.

Because you know they're wondering.

Yeah.

Okay.

So then you were like, uh-oh.

They want to punish you.

Yeah.

So then I'm spiraling.

So now I'm like, oh, wait.

I'm losing.

What?

How did that happen?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You call the dentist office like, yeah, I need to talk to someone so.

Emergency.

Emergency.

Put him on.

Put him on.

He's on speaker.

It's like.

Yeah.

Okay.

So then any more questions after that?

That was the only question.

What did the judge say?

Like, no, obviously we can't tell you that.

We can't tell you that.

Yeah.

And don't even think about it.

Yeah.

Basically.

Then you get the verdict.

The call that you have a verdict.

So then when you get the call that you have a verdict, what goes through your mind?

How long was the jury out?

Two to three hours.

Maybe two.

Maybe like two.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Two hours.

Two hours.

Two hours.

Okay.

So yeah.

What's going through your mind?

Yeah.

I mean, I was spiraling after the question.

I was just like, it's about to happen.

I was like, no.

But like, I'm like scared.

But I'm also like, man, I definitely had some good eye contact with at least a couple of people.

Maybe.

Yeah.

You're like, I saw Sud.

All right.

I'm thinking.

For Pete's sake.

Maybe a hung.

Maybe a hung.

Maybe I'm going to get a hung jury.

I got, I think I got like one or two at least.

Even that, even with the bad question.

But like, I'm thinking, I don't think I won.

I'm like, all right, let's hope I get a hung.

That's what I'm thinking in my head.

Yeah.

And I'm by myself.

I'm walking by myself, you know?

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

And what is your, how's your client doing when you get the verdict?

Someone says my face is very easy to read.

So I was like trying to say positive things, but I think my face was giving like

not positive.

And he's just like, you know, Mr. Frazier, what's going on?

Oh, the verdict is here.

Okay.

Let's go to the, yeah, let's go back to the, let's go back to the courtroom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

So yeah.

Walk us through that moment where you, when you get the verdict.

So we're going in, verdict, you know, they hand the sheet to the judge and then

I don't do this anymore.

But then when they, when they walked out, there was eye contact and there was like smiles

and stuff towards me.

And I was like, okay, this is a good sign.

You knew.

All right.

We're back on.

We're back.

This is a rollercoaster.

It's like, you know, it's over.

We're so back.

It's over.

We're so back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So wait, why, why don't you do that anymore?

Because I don't want to read the jury.

I don't want to know now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You don't want to look.

Yeah.

I don't look now.

It's too much.

Yeah.

I don't look either.

Yeah.

It is too much.

Um, so then, okay.

You've gotten some smiles, some nods.

So now you're back.

You're back in action.

We're so back.

We're so back.

Let's, let's go through like the reading of the verdict.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, the judge gets the paper, hands it back, four person, blah, blah, blah.

You know, you have a verdict.

Yes.

All right.

Read the verdict on the charge of assault in first degree, blah, blah, blah.

Assault second degree.

I apologize.

We find the defendant not guilty.

You know?

Yeah.

I do a little fist pump.

I like bear with the client.

You know, it was like a bear hug.

You hit him with a bottle.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then things were, you know, we were great.

It was like, great.

It was funny too, because even when we were leaving the courtroom, I was like saying thank

you to him.

Right.

And he was like, no, no, no.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for letting me be your first jury.

Yeah.

He's like, wait, what?

Yeah.

No, don't worry.

Did you, uh, did you stay in contact with him at all?

Do you know, like, you know, it was her, uh, epilogue?

It's two postscripts.

We stayed closed.

He is, so he was, you know, green card at the time.

He is a U.S. citizen, you know, now.

Okay.

I was able to do that because this is years ago.

And then a much shorter postscript was that, like, the next day, I have a sweet tooth.

Oh, no.

Actually, it might have been that day, actually.

I, like, went to the grocery store to, all right, so, like, I'll eat healthy, have my

smoothies, I'll work out.

But then, like, every, like, you might find me a random Thursday and I'll eat, like, a

whole, like, Oreo box.

That's relatable.

Yeah.

So, I'm, like, I'm getting my, like, trial, I'm still in the afterglow, my trial victory

Oreos.

And I run into one of the jurors at the grocery store.

Yeah.

And they recognized me at first.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I bet.

Can you imagine, if you're that juror, because, you know, like, we see a bunch of jurors,

but they see, like, one defense attorney.

It's that juror.

Right.

That's the defense attorney.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're kind of a celebrity in their eyes, right?

I do.

Like, they just watched you salsa on the show.

Yeah, they came, like, hey.

Yeah, you were dancing with the stars.

Yeah.

What did, what did they say?

They were just like, oh, man, you just did such a great job, you know?

Was your client happy?

Blah, like, stuff like that.

Did you ask about, like, why they found your client not guilty?

Or did they say anything like that?

No, I mean, I was just, like, in the moments, it's like, oh, God, this is great, hugging.

I was also, like, it was, like, cool, but like I said, I was in my moment, I was also

thinking, like, all right, I don't want to, like, I can communicate now, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, talking with jurors after is very counterintuitive.

Yeah, exactly.

Because, like, the whole time you're not posted.

And you guys, you guys don't do that?

You guys don't have an opportunity to do that, like, right after the verdict?

We do.

We do.

We do.

Yes, you can.

Did you?

Not in this case.

So, I think, one, I was, like, inexperienced.

Now, I realize some judges, all right, if you want to ask, they ask the jury, hey, do

you guys want to talk to them?

And if the jury says yes, cool, but the jury says no, don't chat with them.

So, I think in this case, we just, yeah, we just, none of us chatted with the jury.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yay.

Well, congrats on your first, well, I mean, you've had many since, but.

Yeah, on the first.

Lil Stanford.

Yeah, I know, I know.

Making his way.

Awesome.

And then, cut to now, you're doing big things.

So, I guess this is a good time to transition into, you know, what's going on with you now

and your campaign.

Tell us a little bit about some of the things you're running on.

Yeah, yeah, so, I'm running for the Maryland House of Delegates, it's what we call our state

house, and the background is, I can do this job and stay a public defender, because it's

a part-time legislature, which means it meets from, basically, January to mid-April every

year, and then for the other eight months of the year, people will have other jobs.

Wow.

Okay, so you can still be fighting the good fight.

Fighting the good fight year-round, I guess, but.

Yeah.

In court, and then in the house.

There's an eight-month fight and a four-month fight, and we switch fights.

Exactly.

Yeah, I'm going to find a four-month fight.

Let's talk about some of the stuff you're, you know, some ideas you have to make your district

a better place.

Yeah, so one of the big things is, you know, I want to enhance public safety.

You know, I think the Oregon Cahoots program, the Dallas Star program, it's like when you

have, like, non, like, most 911 calls are non-violent calls of service, right?

But we're sending, like, police officers, basically, to almost everything.

So sometimes if you get the call for, hey, there's a guy outside shirtless, kind of passed

out, it's weird.

Instead of sending, you know, officers there, you can actually send maybe a nurse and a social

worker, right?

And then we can better utilize our officer resources for truly violent calls of service.

So that's one thing.

Right.

And, you know, those situations tend not to escalate when there's an officer there.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

So that's one big thing.

Is there support for those types of programs in Maryland?

I think there's definitely support.

There's been, like, conversations over the years, but we're trying to, like, actualize

it to, like, make it happen.

I think really what it comes down to is just, like, saving resources and just making sure

that everyone's getting the exact care that they need, whether it's a police officer who

goes into a dangerous situation or a social worker or firefighter who just helps someone

kind of change directions real quick.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, when I talk to people, it's like, we can, like, allocate our resources better and

make everyone safer and happier.

So that's, yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome.

That's great.

What else are you running on?

Well, one of the big things we're talking about is, you know, people who are really concerned

about, like, cost of living, rising housing costs, rising utility bills.

And there's, like, some ways, like, I talk to people about how part of what's happening

is that there's, like, an increased energy demand, right?

And how do we balance that increased energy demand?

We need new sources of electricity, new power plants.

But also, like, across America, basically, it's, like, an average, like, 15 to 19 years

to connect a new transmission line to the grid.

So even if you're building new power, we're talking about, you know, literally,

a kid, you know, baby, baby Trey will be in college by the time that new transmission line

connecting that new power gets on the grid.

And, you know, even this podcast, right?

We got, all of us got computers open, we got laptops, checking our phones, like, we're

all using more electricity, right?

And then, like, electric vehicles.

So that's, like, increasing car bills.

And then another thing is, you know, some people were skeptical about how increasing housing

supply can lower prices.

But I think we're seeing now from, like, New Rochelle, New York, as well as Austin, Texas,

even Auckland, yeah, internationally, in New Zealand.

You know, I saw, you know, I saw a little webinar about them, where they've, like, dramatically

increased their housing supply.

And what they've seen is they've been able to have rents actually go down, while other

areas have gone up.

You're saying more housing?

Yes, you know, using the law of supply and demand, it can be a way to, like, ease pressure

on housing, right?

So those are some of the things that I want to do.

Absolutely.

Right.

And I think that's good, because I do think it comes back to public defense, right?

All of these things you're talking about benefit our clients, right?

It benefits our clients to not have as much contact with police, but still get help.

It benefits our clients to have a lower electricity bill.

It benefits our clients to have housing.

I mean, all of that.

Because we do service poor people.

And people who are, you know, kind of on the fringe.

And I think that, you know, all of that's good.

I think that's really noble, that you're helping our clients on the front end and the back end,

you know?

Yeah, that's amazing.

So thank you, yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely.

I appreciate it.

And yeah, that's the goal, definitely.

So what's next for your campaign?

So the primary is June 23rd.

And basically, I'm just, like, contacting voters, putting my messaging out there.

I ordered some yard signs, you know?

I was knocking doors yesterday, you know?

You're doing it.

You know, I'll say this pitch, right?

You know, it's really funny.

Like, when you run for office, you do got to ask people for money, right?

And one big thing, I said, if there's 100 people listening to this podcast, and they all gave

$50, that'd be $5,000.

And that'd be enough to send mail to about 9,000 voters in my district, right?

And yeah, so, you know, hopefully they'll put maybe my ask blue link in the episode description.

If you want to help a public defender get into the statehouse, I think you maybe, you know,

should donate to the campaign.

All right.

Yeah, yeah.

So if you want to help Stanford, you want to help, you know, our clients in his district,

basically, live better and have better services, donate to his campaign.

We'll put a link in the bio on, you know, where you get this podcast.

And I'm hearing everyone over $1,000 gets their preferred trade nickname to be used for

a week.

That's what I heard.

Oh, right.

Oh, wow.

So you should have led with that.

Absolutely.

You should have led with that.

All right.

Okay.

Well, anything else you want to say before we sign off?

No, I mean, just, you know, thanks for having me.

And, you know, thank you for the opportunity.

And it was like really good going down memory lane, actually, talking about my first jury trial.

Yeah.

Thanks for taking us on that journey with you.

We all started somewhere.

Thank you so much for your not guilty.

It's really good to talk to you again, Stanford.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Well, we'll have you back for a third.

Hey, the trilogy.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A&G theme music composer, and Mike Grimm for the remix.

And guess what?

We'll be back in two weeks with another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.