The Scorned Preacher's Daughter – When Family Drama Turns Into False Accusations

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And with that said...

Now, without further ado, here's this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

During Monica's cross, I asked her, I was like,

so after he outed those pictures, she vowed to get revenge, right?

And she was like, oh no, I don't get revenge.

I'm a Christian woman.

I let God get my revenge.

During closing, I was like, I don't know about how honest she was with you all.

You saw that she was about to lie to you about getting evicted from the apartment.

Don't let the herself insult your intelligence.

And she said she's a woman of God and she doesn't let, she doesn't get revenge.

She lets God get revenge.

But it wasn't God who bashed on my client's windshield.

It wasn't God who broke his bedroom window.

It wasn't God who broke off his rearview mirror.

Welcome.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty.

I'm David Moore.

Here, along with my fellow public defenders,

presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't.

I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not-guilty as public defenders get on a daily basis.

In an unjust criminal system.

With a deck stacked against us.

The not guilty.

All right.

Welcome back, everybody, to another Not Guilty.

Sit back, relax, pop open that can of soda, get that bag of popcorn ready.

We got a big one, a good one for you guys today.

Let's start off by introducing someone that's new to the podcast,

but not new to the public defender in my office.

Someone I've been working with, a good friend of mine.

I thought you guys would like him a lot, so I asked him to join.

We got George here on the podcast for the first time.

George, how are you doing?

I'm doing well, man.

Thank you for asking.

Doing real well.

Really excited.

Got my popcorn ready.

I'm ready to get started.

That's right.

That's right.

And our guest today is a public defender all the way from the great state of Oklahoma.

Say hello to Alexis, everybody, in another Not Guilty land.

Alexis, how are you doing today?

I'm great.

Yeah.

Coming from the flyover state of good old Oklahoma.

You know, every time I fly over Oklahoma, I say, you know what?

I need to go there sometime.

I need to go.

Can we do like a two-plane trip, stop, and then let's do a connector in Oklahoma next time?

That's what I say.

Sure you do.

Sure you do.

Let's land in Texas and drive north, right?

Yeah, but Alexis, great to have you on the podcast today.

I'm really excited about your trial, but tell us a little about yourself.

How long have you been a public defender for?

I've been a public defender for just about a year now, actually.

Officially, I am a federal defender, but prior to that, I was in private practice, and

I took a lot of conflict court appointments, so about half of my caseload was always representing

indigent vote.

Okay, court appoint, defense attorney, same thing, you know.

Right, right.

Your heart's always been in the right place.

Yeah.

So, but welcome to the podcast, George.

Welcome to the podcast.

It's going to be good.

Ty looks great.

Okay, so Alexis, you contacted the podcast.

You sent an email saying you have an awesome story you want to share.

Tell us about this trial, this jury trial you did.

Well, this one is near and dear to my heart.

I mean, as they all are, but it was my first ever jury trial.

Uh-oh.

So it was very special.

The charges were child sex abuse of a minor under 12 years old.

Um, so that's a 25-year minimum sentence if you're found guilty.

Wow.

And for your first, your first jury trial.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They handed you that as your first trial?

Jeez.

No pressure or anything, right?

I, yeah.

Right.

Nothing intense happening.

Yeah.

Got it.

So, uh, what were the prosecution facts or what would your client allegedly do?

So, basically, the initial police report read, mom, let's call her Monica, discovers her seven-year-old daughter touching her breasts in the mirror.

Uh, and the daughter, let's call her Lydia, she says, what, what are you doing?

And she says, oh, I'm just checking myself for marks and scratches like daddy does.

And so, Monica's like, hold on, where else does daddy check you for marks and scratches?

And she says, points down to her kitty cat is what she called it.

And so, a mom instantly calls, um, you know, a DHS referral in, calls the police, and they ask, uh, for the, her and the child to come down, do forensic interviews,

and, and do a vaginal exam and whatnot.

Also, brother says he saw it one time when, when daddy was checking her kitty cat.

Brother is older or younger?

Older.

Brother is 13 years old.

Ooh, okay.

Yeah.

All right.

And then does the report go into any further detail about when or how often this happens?

The numbers kind of change.

Supposedly, she told her mom that it happened every time she went to visit dad, which was basically at weekend visitation.

Um, and then in her forensic interview, she says it happened four times, um, just four.

And it was random how she was like, how many times did this happen?

Four.

Okay.

And, and what's the relationship like between mom and dad?

Cause if they're not living in the same household.

No, they're divorced.

So mom and dad are divorced and it was actually pretty nasty divorce.

Okay.

Isn't it always right?

Here it comes.

So you're getting this case.

Uh, and what were your initial thoughts or impressions?

Uh, I'm like, well, this is, this is bad.

25 year minimum.

And there's another witness to it.

Right.

The, the brother saw that.

So.

And they're all children.

Yes.

Oh, I mean, isn't that every defense attorney's dream to just cross-examine a small child?

I mean, isn't that what we dream about that?

It's like, yes, that's what I want to do.

When I went to law school, I was like, my goal is to cross-examine children about private parts.

That's what I want to do.

Right.

Especially what she calls her kitty cat.

Yeah.

So we're calling it kitty cat now from now on.

Okay.

So then tell us about when you get the case and you go over the police report and

you meet your client and what, what was that like?

So this man, actually, this was, uh, when I originally got his case, I was in private

practice and he had already had his preliminary hearing.

And then he, but basically he's struggling.

Um, he's, you know, he's losing everything around him and this is a, it's a pretty tight

knit community and people know them and stuff.

So he's, you know, in custody or out of custody.

He's out of custody at this point.

He's out of custody.

So it was, I'm, you know, a new baby lawyer.

I've been barred for like six months and a lawyer is trying to help me out.

And I'm just like, Oh, I got, I got a case.

I don't do criminal, but a criminal case came through, you know, give me a cut and you can

take it.

But the thing is, the guy doesn't really have that much money, but whatever, sit down and

talk to him.

And I sat down and talking to him and I was like, Oh, this man's innocent.

I instantly was like, this man's innocent.

Well, we got to get him off.

I don't even care if he doesn't have any money to pay me really.

So.

Wow.

So what did, what did he say?

What made you come to that conclusion?

Well, he, he laid it all out there.

Basically what had happened was, as they say, his, he said, this was a big setup by his wife,

his ex-wife.

So he says, first of all, he did check his daughter's kitty cat, but it was when mom dropped

the child off for the weekend, she gave him some cream and said, Oh, put this between her

legs.

She has a diaper rash and he's like, what a diaper rash, you know, seven years old, but

she's been wetting the bed.

And so she wears pampers every night and it's caused some irritation.

So, you know, and mom's kind of like, don't ask me no questions here, put this on her, you

know, she'll be fine.

He's like, should we take her to a doctor?

And he was like, no, just do what I said.

Right.

So he, you know, he, that was the last time he saw his daughter.

He's like, yeah, I had put some medicine on her.

And even my son, which actually really isn't his son, it was his stepson, but who he raises

his own, even saw him do it is what he said.

Like, you know, he saw, she was said she was itching.

I was like, Oh yeah, I got to put the cream on you.

And the son had come to use the restroom and the restroom is in his one bedroom apartment

in his one bedroom.

So he was like, yeah, even that's what the son saw, but I'm like, well, why would your

wife want to set this up?

So prior to their divorce, they're, they're struggling a little bit.

She's a gospel singer, daughter of a pastor, an incredible singer.

And she goes around singing at all these churches around the state of Oklahoma.

And he's an inspector.

He like inspects vehicles and aircraft and stuff to make sure it's up to code.

But they're having some problems.

She leaves for long periods of time.

Can't explain where she's been.

You know, people are calling the house and hang up when he answers.

So he kind of turns to alcohol and eventually they separate, but they're hoping they're going

to work it out and get back together.

And also this woman is 30 years old at the time he married her.

She, he was her third husband.

So that should have been a red flag right there, but you know, whatever.

Maybe three is a charm.

So it's a bit Taylor, right?

I mean, you know, I marry who I love.

I love a lot of people.

Yeah, exactly.

So, and then, so, and her son was two years old.

And so that's why Don took on that child as his own when he married that woman.

And then they have their kid, Lydia.

But basically they separate.

One day he comes to visit the house and she's come from running errands.

And she says, the truck's making a funny noise.

So for him to go check it out, he goes into the truck and her cell phone's in the truck.

So, you know, he's been suspicious about what's going on.

He wants to see what they're, you know, what's going on since they've been separated.

And he starts looking through her phone and he sees a bunch of different people from the different churches that she sings at.

And he recognizes a lot of these names, right?

And one of the names in particular, though, is the husband of a friend of hers.

But he runs the music ministry at one of the churches.

So he's like, let's see what's here.

And in that text message thread, he sees naked pictures of his wife.

She's taken up herself and sent to this man.

It's going down.

Right, right.

And so that's her, you know, he's actually friends with this man.

And that man's wife is friends with her.

So he starts looking through and she's basically been sending nudes of herself to several of them, the clergy of these different churches.

And, you know, she's been having affairs long before they were separated, while they were still together.

And so he instantly starts taking screenshots of these things.

And then he forwards them to those men's wives.

Without letting her know?

From his own family?

Without letting her, he's in the car.

He's in the car.

He hasn't went in and said anything to her about what he's discovered.

He's looking at these, taking screenshots, sending them to himself.

So he has the proof, but also sent them to the pastor of one of those churches, as well as the wife who attends the church.

And he just basically airs it all out.

Woo!

This isn't going to end well, sir.

We're going to end well.

Right.

If only he knew how bad it was going to end.

We're going to end well.

So there's a few things happening, right?

First of all, anytime you find your significant other's cell phone in a car, that's a red flag.

That's right.

Like, she has a burner phone?

Mmm.

Right.

Or, I mean, maybe she wanted him to discover it, leaving it in the car and ask him to go check it out.

I don't know.

But he comes in and he confronts her about it.

And she's not even upset, really, about the fact that she's gotten caught.

She's upset that he sent these pictures on and basically her affairs are outed.

So at that point in time, she vows to get revenge.

She's like, I don't know how, I don't know when, but I'm going to get you for this.

Because, you know, her, again, she's a daughter of a pastor, small town, gospel singing.

So needless to say, she wasn't invited back to some of those churches to sing.

Okay.

Well, so I'm asking, like, hold on.

So she vows to get revenge.

How long ago was this?

And he's like, it was a couple of years ago.

I'm like, well, so, yeah, you've been divorced for over a year.

You really think that this set up a couple of years later?

And he's like, well, now, listen, that's not all that happened.

So she vows to get revenge, you know, separation over.

It's a final divorce.

But once they're completely divorced, she basically goes through a string of men, kind of one after the other.

And she keeps getting evicted.

And she moves in with a boyfriend and moves out.

So that weekend, he, you know, is taking care of their child.

And the 13-year-old stepson is there to visit, too.

And when she shows up to pick up her kids, she has the latest flavor of the month, her sixth boyfriend for the year.

And Don, my client, right, isn't happy about this.

And him and the dude exchange words, kind of like, what are you doing in my house?

You need to wait in the car, type of thing.

And she's just like, oh, well, we live with him now.

And so Don isn't happy.

He's like, you know, I'm really concerned about the way you're raising our daughter.

You have, you know, all these men around her.

And we don't know these men from Adam.

This is your sixth boyfriend this year.

Plus the fact that you keep moving all the time.

What's going on with that?

Like, I pay you child support.

Why can't you keep, you know, a roof over these kids' head?

He's like, I'm going to go back to court and ask the judge to modify custody.

So, yeah, the whole, all her indiscretions are discovered.

And then they go through this nasty divorce.

And she's still, you know, trying to do mean things to him whenever she sees him vandalize his cars and stuff like that.

This is on the, when she hands him the cream and says, you need to put cream on her.

Then he says, I'm going to take you back to court.

So, yeah, Friday, he drops the kid off.

And in Friday, Monica drops the kid off and says, here's the cream.

Make sure you give it to her every night after her bath.

Sunday, she comes to pick the kids back up.

And she's with her new boyfriend.

And then, yeah.

That's quick.

Well, I'm sure she has a boyfriend prior to the Friday.

But, yeah, she's surprised you're bringing him by.

And the daughter's having problems and stuff with wetting the bed and things like that.

And she's seven years old.

So, he's thinking, you know, well, why is she so having a problem with wetting the bed?

What's going on here?

Like, this is, you know.

Okay.

This is a suspect, to say the least.

George, are you thinking of something?

Yeah.

So, I'm interested.

How much work did the prosecution do on the front end to figure some of this stuff out?

Because it seems like, I mean, I know they had the forensic interview.

But did they determine that there's been six men in and out of her house?

Well, you know how it is.

That doesn't help their case.

So, they don't want to know anything about that.

They want to listen to mom, you know, bitch about what a horrible husband he was.

And how, you know, they have no idea about her indiscretions, right?

They just want to win.

Right.

And mom says, you know, oh, my daughter doesn't even really like going over there anyway.

And my son always thought that something was weird with them because he's always having Lydia sit on his lap.

And he always hugs and kisses her, you know, things that dads do with their daughters.

Well, then why is he going over there if she has this problem?

See, this is the reason why I couldn't be a prosecutor because I wouldn't be trying to win.

Right.

Well, and that's the thing, too.

She tried to make it be like, oh, well, I think Tony always knew something was happening.

So, he went over there to be protective of his sister.

And that's why he wanted to go on the dad's weekend visits.

That's a question I have.

So, Tony's the son's name or the brother's name, right?

Right.

Yeah, the 13-year-old.

Like, how specific was his statement to the police that he witnessed it or how did he witness the touching or the putting on of – like, what did he say specifically to the police?

Because he's sort of the corroborating evidence, right?

Yeah.

So, he says that he saw one day he was peeking through the door when – I mean, Lydia was laying on the bed naked and Don was, like, bent down, moving his fingers around her vagina area.

That's what he says.

Okay.

And what did your client say about that?

He says – he didn't peek through the door.

He came and said he needed to use the restroom.

And I said, come on.

Come on, son.

Use the restroom.

I'm just putting this cream on your sister.

You know she's got a rash and she's itchy down there.

Okay.

But it's interesting because his story changed.

So, on the eve of trial or, like, the 10-day discovery deadline, you know, as they're prepping their witnesses, they supplement their discovery.

Okay.

And it's like, oh, well, now he says he saw – or Tony says he saw Don in Olivia's vagina area twice, not just once.

This is what he's disclosed now, a year later after this is ending, is they're going to go to the other child.

And then – and also, something that was particular about – the child did say during her forensic interview, daddy always checks me down there, and then he tells me to tell your mom I checked you.

So, that to me was like, well, why would he tell her to tell her mom if he's doing something nefarious, right?

So, and she said that a couple times.

She said it in her forensic interview, and then she said it at the preliminary hearing, which he had already had by the time I got the case.

How old is the little girl?

Seven.

So, the thing is – so, I'm a father of three, okay?

And a lot of disgusting things happen with small children that I won't mention, but there's a lot of fluid exchange and seeing disgusting things, and there's all sort of creams.

Being a parent is amongst the most disgusting things that can happen, to be honest with you.

It's really, really disgusting on a day-to-day basis, you know?

And so, when you hear things like the father was touching, I'm like, if there's a rash down there, what are you supposed to do?

Not do anything to the rash, and then the police will come at you the next week and say, well, you knew your child had a rash, and you did nothing about it?

That's child endangerment.

Like, I don't – I don't – it's baffling to me.

Well, it's interesting.

I'm glad you had that response, because other people, when I was, like, talking it through the case with more experienced attorneys, they're like, well, why would he be the one touching it?

Shouldn't the kid put the cream on herself?

And I'm like, well, I don't – I mean, should we entrust a kid with their own medical treatment?

Correct.

Correct.

Yes, my children should brush their own teeth, but if I want their teeth brushed, I have to put the toothbrush in their mouth.

And make sure that it's brushed.

So, yeah, they should, but if you want it done correctly, or if you want it done regularly, yeah, you have to do it yourself.

So, Alexis, tell us about – you met your client, you heard this story, you believe he's innocent, and then where do you go from there?

Like, tell us about the work of the case or the journey you go on from there to get ready for trial.

Well, so, real briefly, okay, hey, they file an application to revoke his probation.

So, he had ended up getting a DUI, and it was his second DUI in 10 years, which makes it a felony, right?

And he got two years deferred sentence, and so he was just supposed to complete these classes or whatever.

But if you're accused of a new crime in the meantime, right, then that's a reason to revoke your probation.

So, the judge revoked his probation, which wasn't even – I wasn't even privy to that because I was just so unexperienced that I didn't even know, oh, yeah, I've got to look to make sure they're not on probation because this could cause them to be on probation.

And now you represent them in two cases you didn't know about, you know, but I didn't realize that.

And so, I was like, okay, I'm putting on my first revocation hearing, too.

And that was just done and done.

Like, you know, all they have to do is put the preliminary hearing transcript already showing that, you know, it's already met probable cause standard.

And, yeah, you violated your probation.

So, he gets sentenced right then to his two years.

And I'm like, well, hold on.

No, he can't go away.

So, basically, he gets carried off to jail right then.

And this man, he's, you know, 40 years old, never – I mean, he had that DUI, right, and now this is felony DUI.

But he never had anything like that before.

And so, he's on his way to prison now.

And so, I go talk to the judge, and I'm like, basically, can I withdraw?

Because this isn't what I thought was going to happen.

This is fair.

And he's like, no, you can't withdraw.

You know, we've already done district court arraignment.

Like, I don't let people out.

And I was like, well, judge, I can't afford to do this case for free, basically.

And he's like, well, how about I appoint you?

So, that way you can, you know, you'll get $1,000 to do it.

So, that was my first court appointment.

And then they just came rushing in after that.

But – so, he appoints me, and I was like, I need an investigator.

This case is so – the facts are so intensive.

And he's like, all right, I'll give you that, too.

So, I don't want to hear anything else.

Like, bye.

We'll see you at trial.

But, you know, I know they're like, oh, he doesn't – and even the judge, like, he doesn't want to plea.

Like, now he's in there for this.

Anyway, I'm sure, you know, Ms. Prosecutor will cut you a good deal.

Like –

What's he looking at?

What's his exposure?

Well, 25-year minimum if he's convicted at trial.

Okay.

And so, what is their offer?

So, their offer originally was 10 in, 15 out.

So, they're like, look, he can just, you know, be on paper for 15 after he serves as 85% of 10 years.

And he can be a registered sex offender.

And, you know, yeah, good deal.

We can all be done.

Closer to trial, though, it did change.

And she said, okay, I'll do 5 in, 20 out.

What if he's innocent?

Right, well, that's not a possibility, obviously, of course.

No, but we've made the statutes to where you're looking at a shitload of time.

So, if we just say any time, that's okay.

It's okay for you to be – spend a couple years in prison if you're innocent because of the amount of time you could spend if you found guilty.

It's totally fair.

It's just being nice.

The system works great.

Yeah.

Yeah, but he never wavered.

I was like, look, I mean, if we are convicted, juries can't give you any probation.

There's not going to be any split sentences.

And he was like – and I'd have to say I did this?

And I was like, yeah.

And he was like, oh, absolutely not.

Let's go.

At this time, I'd like to give a thanks and shout-out to Troy Farquhar, Jennifer Wynn, John Collins, Pancho Villa, Eloisa Cleveland, David Allen Hayes, Connor Hancock, Allison Roth, Eric Watts, and Abby Forsyth.

I want to say thank you for your donation to the podcast and helping keeping the lights on and this A&G machine of hope and inspiration running.

These awesome individuals here became members to the A&G Patreon program over the past year.

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Thank you.

So tell us about – you got your investigator now, and let's talk about the pretrial investigation you did.

What did you do?

What did you guys get?

Yeah, so one, I wanted to find these different apartments that she's been evicted out of because her story, right, that she's painted in the police reports is about how he's a derelict father, and he's around sometimes but not other times.

And, you know, he's an alcoholic and works sometimes but not other times, and he was abusive in their relationship.

And they basically, you know, painted him to be a piece of shit.

And she's this, you know, wonderful woman of God who is well-connected to the community and takes good care of her children all by herself.

And so I wanted to get more information about that.

So I'm, like, pulling the records.

She's getting, you know, evicted and sued left and right in small claims court.

So pulled all those.

And then we have the names of a couple of the churches.

So sent the investigator out there to do some digging.

And he was able to confirm, one, for sure.

And, but these people were not helpful in the way that they confirmed that, yes, Monica had an extramarital affair with Bruce.

And now Bruce and his wife are not together anymore.

They're divorced.

But Bruce was not happy.

And he's like, oh, no, I'm not going to court to testify for that piece of shit, you know.

Well, we, colloquially, though, as a homewrecker.

Right, you would think the woman is the homewrecker, though.

But, no, he's the one who outed her home wrecking.

So he is at fault.

You banged his wife.

You banged his wife.

Come on.

We're not going to.

So he says he's not going to come and testify.

And what was his justification?

He's just like, I don't want anything to do with that.

No, my, you know, he ruined my marriage and all that.

I'm not coming to testify in court about that.

That should be a bias towards your client.

Yeah.

That you justify favorably.

You bang his wife, don't you?

You do.

So how can we trust you?

You know, like.

Right.

Right.

Well, he wasn't having it.

Also, the investigator got a hold of the wife, you know, and you would think she'd be like,

yeah, let's, you know, show these horrible people.

And, you know, but no, she didn't want anything to do with them either.

It was just a big embarrassment.

And people are like, that's not talking about that anymore.

So he's like, you know, if you want to work up his penis, I'll serve them if you'd like.

But these people are liable to say anything, you know, because they don't, they don't want

to help.

So I was like, okay, well, let's have him on subpoena.

But this is, you know, maybe she'll admit to it on the stand.

Who knows?

Yeah.

I mean, you still have the, the whole, they're divorced.

She's on her sixth guy.

She's getting evicted.

The whole, like him going and saying he wants to get a family law order or change the custody

thing going for you too, though.

So did you investigate that or work that angle up a little bit?

Yeah, I did.

I, you know, looked up their divorce and what the agreement was as far as him taking the child.

And I noted that the 13 year old brother wasn't a part of the visitation agreement.

So the fact that he's still wanting to take this kid or the kid that the kid wants to come

for their visits on the weekend to me stood out as like, well, this is a good man.

Cause you know, why would he, it's like, oh, he could not have anything.

The way she painted this, he doesn't have anything to do with his kid, but it's like, no, he has

something to do with his kids, plural, your kid too.

You know, that doesn't quite fit with the idea that he's trying to get custody because of

her, like, how was he never around, but he wants custody.

Right.

Right.

Well, and that she didn't say that part to the police either that, oh, he threatened custody

and I came with my new boyfriend and that, you know, and, oh, and then she disclosed the

sexual lewd molestation.

She didn't say any of that.

Right.

So it doesn't, it doesn't read like he's a decent guy at all.

But, um, I also got, um, information.

Oh, I was like, well, so she vowed to get revenge.

And then years later this happens and he's like, oh, no, she was messing with me all the

time.

And so then he started, gives me a couple neighbors, um, that I can contact and they'll

talk about how they witnessed him, her coming over to his house and vandalizing his cars.

Um, and then an, uh, an ex-girlfriend of his one time they were out together and she came

up and threw a drink in his face and these types of things.

So I'm like, okay, well that does seem like a woman scorned.

And why would she be scorned?

Um, just because they're divorced or, you know, is there something else going on?

Something she needs to get revenge for.

Oh, that's good.

So wait, so she, the mother vandalized your client's car?

Yeah.

Like how?

She, uh, she, uh, ripped out the windshield.

Yeah.

Basically she, he had two vehicles.

She ripped, ripped the windshield off of one of them and then, um, kick the side mirror

off.

And then she went up to the next car and she, um, bust out the windshield.

Wait a minute.

You say she ripped the windshield off of a vehicle.

She ripped the windshield wiper off of the vehicle.

I was like, okay, I thought she, I was like, how strong is this woman?

He might be afraid of her.

Right.

I know.

Right.

Well, he should be for more reasons than one.

So I'm like, okay, well, this is all fitting together.

Basically all the, you know, all the witnesses are kind of confirming what he said.

So I think.

You got a motive.

We're in good shape.

Yeah.

We're in good shape.

I believe him.

And so then, yeah, right before trial, like I said, now the son says he saw him, uh,

looking in her vagina twice.

And then now the kid, after she's already said it twice on the record that daddy told

her, tell your mom, I checked you.

Now she's going to say, daddy told her to keep a secret.

Oh, okay.

How did that come about?

When did she say that?

Wait, I got a, you know, supplemental discovery letter, 10 days, right?

The cutoff, right?

Discovery supposed to be handed off.

And it's like, oh, on the 10th day, here's an updated while I was talking with the clients

preparing to go to trial.

This is now their new statement.

So, right.

As she's prepping them to say what she wants them to say on the stand, now it's gotten a

little bit more juicy and makes a little more sense now.

I need to fix my case.

Let's talk about the, the girls, the seven year old statement.

So she tells her mom that daddy tells her like that does checks on her and touches her down

there, just touches her kitty.

So they do a forensic and she, does she repeat kind of the same stuff in the forensic or sort

of like get specific in the forensic interview?

Well, so the forensic was interesting because when she's asked, you know, are there okay touches,

not okay touches?

Does anyone touch you in a not okay way?

She says no.

And, and then she asked, Oh, okay.

You go to visit your mom's house, your dad's house.

You feel safe here, safe there.

Uh, yeah, I feel okay at my mom's house, but I want to stay at my dad's more.

And then when she goes further about that, Oh no, unsafe at mom's.

Cause there's cockroaches and spiders that I'm scared of.

And then are there people using drugs or smoking?

You know what drugs are, you know, how they ask them at mom's or dad's house.

And, and, and, you know, it's like dad's house.

Nope.

Mom's house.

Yeah.

Mom drinks a lot of beer.

And so it was actually like, okay, this is, this is going great.

But then it was like, well, so does any, you said there are not any, not okay touches,

but does anyone ever check you?

And then they, that cues her in, right.

And she's like, Oh yeah.

Daddy checks me for scars and scratches and breaks.

And then he said, well, how does daddy check you?

And she said, with this finger, where's his finger in my kitty cat.

She like then becomes like the Manchurian candidate, you know, like just kind of says

the buzzword and she just kind of goes into autopilot and says the, the thing she's

been programmed to say.

Right.

She's been coached.

She's been coached.

So, but that's still, that's a, I mean, that is a good forensic interview for you.

You know, like the statements about her wanting to be with the dad, not the mother, the mother's

place is dangerous and it's whatever it is.

Dad provides a nice loving environment for his daughter.

Yeah.

All right.

And then are we ready to start talking about jury trial or was there any sort of like

last minute negotiations, attempts to stop, uh, settle the case?

No, that was the best deal she came up with was five and 20 out.

Now it's actually after I handed her my witness list, which did include, you know, Bruce from

Bethlehem church or whatever.

And, and, and, you know, ex Mr.

Bruce's wife from Bethlehem church and a couple other people like that.

So I was in my, you know, I have to give, I tried to give his plan to witness summary as possible, but I was like, he will testify that he had an extramarital affair with Monica while she was married to Jones.

And that, that was outed by, you know, Mr. Jones and, and that type of thing.

So then it was like, yeah, the deal got a little bit sweeter.

Like she was like, Ooh, this been a little bit.

So let me ask you strategically.

Did you ask her how she plans to explain all the, her bad facts?

No.

You know what?

I, I don't trust these people to, to, yeah, I don't trust them.

They're just going to now be on notice about these things.

So, no, do you think she even noticed the bad facts?

I think she did in the end, like, Oh, well, this isn't as good as I thought it is.

But I think she thought that my guy was so bad that she was like, well, whatever, that doesn't matter because he's a piece of shit.

And so he's a piece of shit because he has two DUIs.

I don't.

Okay.

Let's talk about the jury trial then.

Okay.

So you get sent to the judge that you were appearing in front of already or did you get sent to a different judge?

The same judge.

And like I said, I was new.

I was new to this whole state, this town, right?

New to practicing law.

So everyone knows each other.

No one knows me.

And so he did not, you know, treat me well.

Did the prosecutor have a relation, a preexisting relationship?

Yeah.

Or a prior relationship, I should say, not preexisting.

Weird.

Well, yeah, she was his, she was that nocket, uh, DA.

So she practiced in front of him all day, every day.

And in fact, when I, we were talking negotiation, she was like, well, you know, I'm his favorite, I'm his girl.

So he's going to give me whatever I want.

That's what she said.

Like, as we were leaving his chambers from talking to him, I'm like, oh, wow.

If you were really his girl, would you out him as being his girl?

Now you've just compromised his integrity, like, but whatever.

Other than the, other than the facts.

Right.

Everything but the facts.

Like, or, or, or as I like to say, don't set yourself up.

Don't, don't blow the easy layup.

This is an easy layup for you, right?

Don't blow it.

This is a wide open layup for you now.

There's no pressure on me, right?

The pressure's on you.

Good luck.

Well, she wasn't worried because she's, you know, I've been practicing for a while and no one knows me from Adam.

So it was like, oh, this baby lawyer's thing.

She's going to cut her teeth on the sure loser.

Okay.

That's all right.

That's all right.

You're focused though.

So you're ready.

You're ready.

And the facts are the facts, baby.

The facts are the, unfortunately for them, the facts are the facts.

Let's, let's talk about jury selection.

What was that like?

Your first time.

So, yeah, I mean, you know, she got up there

and was up there for like an hour and a half or something, or maybe two.

And I was still just, you know, and especially I think voir deer is something that, you know, takes practice.

Well, I guess it all takes practice, right?

That's why it's called a practice of law.

But I was only up there for like 30 minutes and not flowing, right?

Like, it was just my first time talking to these people.

I'm like a deer in the headlights.

Did you, did you like, was somebody teaching you or telling you what to do?

Like, you got to talk about the burden of the proof and the presumption of innocence.

And you got to, and especially on a sex case too.

I mean, just, just, just the basics is enough for your first time on voir deer.

Then you got to get into the nitty gritty and the dirty about the child abuse and sex abuse.

And can, can you sit through that as a juror and be fair and not hold against your client?

So like, how did you approach all that?

Well, I had a mentor who kind of was a person like, oh yeah, go into private practice.

Don't worry.

I'll like, you know, help you along the way.

But he was also like, oh, this guy needs to believe.

So yeah, nobody believed in this case really, but me.

But I kind of, yeah, it was real brief.

I asked them, you know, about how they felt about alcoholics and people make mistakes and stuff.

Cause I knew that that was going to come out.

I didn't want them to hold that against my guy, but also about, has anybody been in a nasty divorce?

And you are heard of, you know, kids being used as pawns against the other party, that type of thing.

And, oh, can kids be coached?

Is everything a kid says true?

So it was just kind of, it was probably.

That's pretty good.

That's awesome, actually.

Yeah, that's great.

That is all you have previewed your case perfectly.

Right.

Just kept it simple and, you know, just real easy.

Are there, were there any, any jurors that, that were particularly good or particularly bad?

Well, actually there was a black guy and I was just happy that we had one black person

on the jury.

That's just, you know, a lot of times there won't be any even on the panel.

Exactly.

So it was like, okay, great.

But then it was also like, I mean, it's a black client and a black victim, allegedly.

So, I mean, I don't know necessarily how that ends up playing out.

So I think that's probably why she'd want to keep the black person on the panel.

Cause she's like, okay, well, he's going to feel sorry for this little black girl who's

been molested by her dad.

But usually they always kick black people on the jury.

Yeah.

So that was the one memorable thing I think about the jury, but I was like, also, I want

kind of older women who are married and like, you know, church moms who would like look down

on this type of behavior that Monica was engaged in.

That's true.

That's more of the element you got going here.

Or ironically, in a case like this, parents.

Like, seriously, like if a kid tells me my mom or my dad applied ointment to my body, I'm

going to say, why am I here?

I'm not a doctor.

This isn't a crime.

He applied ointment to my body.

I don't, so I have to do, I have to do that when I get home.

I don't want to hear it when I'm at court.

What about the, anything memorable with the prosecutors, Wadir?

I mean, you already talked about that, right?

Or do you remember anything?

No, it wasn't memorable.

What about the judge?

I mean, the judge was just, he was just kind of fine going along.

Like, and he was kind of, you know, a little condescending to me because he knew I didn't

know what I was doing.

And I had made that clear.

Like, I told them both, like, this is my first jury trial.

I don't know.

So, like, please be nice to me.

But, so, he was kind of like, all right, now we're going to do Wad, Wadir, what we

call jury picking.

Jury picking.

I'm incorporating that into my next trial.

Jury, wait, I need to write a note on that.

Jury picking.

Right.

I think people call it jury picking to avoid having to say Wadir or Wadir.

They're like, I don't know.

Jury picking.

Jury picking.

I love it.

All right, Alexis, tell us about opening statements.

You know, prosecution opening statements, very dramatic.

They highlight that this child has, is on like an IEP, individualized education plan.

And so, she's one of the most vulnerable victims because she's basically slow.

And, you know, that this horrible man took advantage of her in this way.

And, and describes it as checking her, but he would insert his finger into her vagina in

and out, in and out.

And, yeah, made it just pretty vile.

And like, and then this mom has to discover that her childhood abuse and she does the right

thing.

She immediately brings the kids to the police.

Is that something we talked about?

Did I miss that?

You said the prosecutor said that she was slow?

Yeah.

Was there, is there something about her that?

Well, just because of the fact, I mean, she's seven years old.

She's some of the, I guess she did seem a little delayed in the way she talked a little bit.

Like, she acted like a real little kid.

Seven, you're kind of, I don't know.

She, but she acted like maybe, yeah, like a five-year-old kind of.

Okay.

There's a reason why they're doing the same thing in first, second, and third grade.

Like, because some kids are going to be slower than the other kids, depending on, on their

environment, depending on whether or not they have brothers and sisters around their age.

There's a lot of things that go, that go into that.

So then that was her opening statement.

What was your opening statement like?

So the trial thing was a thin line between love and hate.

So I was saying, yeah, you're going to see how just, how thin that line is in this trial.

And so I just started out with, here, Don, you need to put this, you need to put this

cream in between Lydia's legs after she gets out the back.

Cream in between her legs.

Why, why would we do that?

She's a diaper rash.

Just do what I said.

She doesn't need to go to the doctor or anything.

Put this cream on her.

Okay, sure.

And so I was like, if you were there that day on that Friday afternoon, you'd see, you

know, Lydia run into her daddy's arm.

So happy to see him and spend the weekend.

And you'd see Tony also happy to greet the father.

He, the only father he's ever known.

And you'd see Monica standing there with an attitude because she despises dog.

And you'd smell the popcorn.

He had just popped for them and watched Jungle Book and laugh with them.

And then afterward, you'd hear little Lydia say, daddy, I'm itching down there.

And he'd all of a sudden become alert and attentive like a good father.

He is say, all right, yeah, let's give you a bath.

And then we're going to put your cream on.

And you'd see as he helped her take a bath.

And then once she's out, he's administering the cream as his son peeks in and says, daddy,

I need to use the restroom.

The restroom is in his bedroom in that one bedroom apartment.

So he has to come to the bedroom.

And you'd see that the door wasn't locked or anything.

He didn't have to knock on the door.

It was open because there was nothing nefarious going on.

And he says, sure, son, come in, use the bathroom.

You know, your sister has a rash, so I'm putting the cream on her.

And then you'd see as the weekend came to an end and Monica is back with her attitude

and tell, but not only her attitude, her boyfriend, her, the latest flavor of the month, her sixth

boyfriend of the year.

And you'd see he and Don exchange words and Don say, he's not happy with the way his daughter's

being raised and he's going to go fight for custody.

And that was the last time he saw his daughter until a week later, he's getting called in by

sex crimes detectives to come in and answer to these allegations of child sex abuse.

And so then I go on and you wonder, how do we get from, you know, a happy marriage and then a father

administering, you know, medication to his daughter?

Well, how we get there is that thin line between love and hate.

And then I go into the fact that, you know, basically he's caught her red handed and he is out of her.

That's good. You tell it from your client's perspective and tell him his story, what he went through.

Yeah. Yeah.

So every, the jurors are already like, and even the judge kind of perks up like, hold on.

There's a story to this.

Even with the church members.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, let's talk about the rolling out of the evidence.

How did it roll out for the prosecution?

So they put up mom and she presents very well.

Right.

And she talks about, you know, she's just comes across very distinguished and matter of fact about what happened.

And, you know, I was so hurt, but I should have known because, you know, he's behaved in these vile ways before.

And my son was concerned about his little sister because he, you know, Don was always kissing and hugging her.

And it's like a father showing affection to his daughter.

That's nice.

And so, yeah, she presented what she told the story just fine.

She was, you know, just seemed, she knew her role.

What would you expect from someone who has made this whole story up and has been practicing it for the longest time?

This is her story.

She coached two kids.

She's lied to a prosecutor and an investigator.

How many times she told this lie?

This is coming out of her mind.

She set this up.

Of course it's perfect.

It's supposed to be.

So I start off with easy stuff.

I'm like, okay, so Lydia wasn't potty trained.

Yes, she was potty trained.

Okay.

Well, she would sometimes wet the bed.

Yes.

Okay.

And so you will use pampers on her.

No, there were no pampers.

Okay.

So you let her wet the bed every night and didn't use any pampers.

No, she would wake up and come get me and we would change her sheets.

Every single night in the middle of the night, you get up and go and change this kid's sheets.

After she wakes up, well, you would wake up too, wouldn't you, if you were soaked?

And it's like, well, that's the point of her not being potty trained because she didn't wake up to go pee, right?

So, okay.

But she wakes up after she pees.

And so I'm like, well, she's giving me a, these are the softball questions, right?

I'm thinking she's just going to be fine with that.

And I'm like, well, ultimately that moisture or something, she had a diaper rash.

No.

So you're saying you didn't drop off any cream with her when she went to her dad's house for the weekend.

No, absolutely not.

So I'm like, oh, shoot.

Well, this is the part, there's no way to confirm, right?

But I was like, well, so you're never saying, you're saying she never had a rash down there?

And she says, oh, yeah, she had a yeast infection.

And I said, oh, okay.

So she had an infection down there.

And there was some cream.

No, the doctor didn't tell us to put any cream.

He just said, give her showers instead of baths.

And I mean, this is completely, you know, as we're going through this, this is new to me.

And I'm like, hold on, what?

But I'm like, a doctor told you to take showers instead of baths when you have a yeast infection?

And I'm looking at the jury.

Right, right.

I'm looking at the jury like, oh, come on, women.

You know better than that.

And so.

Dr. Seuss.

Dr. Seuss told you to take showers?

Which doctor?

What's his name?

Right.

This doesn't make sense, right?

And so we just get past that and like, okay.

But she's saying, no, there was never any cream or anything.

And then we get into the fact that she was going from different apartments, one apartment to the other.

So I said, you lived at this apartment, said the address, yes.

And then you were evicted in this month.

Yes.

This apartment, evicted.

Yes.

This apartment, evicted.

No, we weren't evicted from that apartment.

I wasn't staying with.

And at this point, she has an attitude, right?

And she looks like a completely different person than she did when she was testifying.

Like she's real, yeah, they're really not liking me.

And so it was like out of a movie, the investigator I had, he had a couple more documents to give me.

And he comes in and has an envelope, a manila envelope full of papers.

And I don't know what they are.

But I mean, they must have been whatever, some records from the apartment or whatnot.

And so as she's saying that, I like go over and grab these records.

And I start to like open them as I approach her.

She's like, no, we were staying with somebody.

We were staying with a friend when we lived there.

We weren't evicted.

And I'm like, oh, family.

So it's your testimony here in front of this jury that you didn't get evicted from the apartments.

And then as I'm pulling out the paper, she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, those apartments.

We did.

Is that right?

We did.

Those apartments.

Okay.

An investigator literally walked in the court as you're cross-examining her and handed you

an envelope with the, like, that's like total TV style.

Like my cousin Vinny, you know.

That's Matlock.

Because he had no idea.

I just, you know, he had been trying to collect this stuff for me and he knew I was going

to be in trial until I was like, oh, well, here's the last of the papers that I got.

And so it was like, but I wasn't, you know, and they happened to be the actual papers of

what I would have been featured with, but I didn't know that at the time.

Awesome bluff.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Right.

Couldn't have just been a menu for the sandwich sandwich shop down the street, you know, like.

No, but it could have been a copy of a protective order for something else or who knows,

you know, so.

It could have been a bill.

Right.

So I asked her about that and she, you know, I was like, and Don was not happy with the

fact that you were providing unstable, you know, living situation for Lydia, was he?

He never said anything about that.

Shoot.

I was one who took care of him.

You know, he didn't care type of thing.

Like, okay.

All right.

And you had several boyfriends this year.

I mean, but I started, I was like, you had one boyfriend because he knew, my client knew

the names of a couple of them.

So I was like, oh, you know, Henry, that was your boyfriend this year, wasn't it?

Yes.

And Moses was also your boyfriend, right?

So then by the time I get to the third man, she's like, no, that was just a friend of mine.

So same thing, like with the apartments, right?

Once she sees where I'm going with that, she's like trying to shut it down.

So, I mean, it showed her character and then we get to, okay, while you were married, you

sent nude, or I was like, you know, Mr. Bruce, so-and-so, right?

Yes.

He goes to this church, right?

Yes.

His wife also goes to that church.

Yes.

You're friends with his wife.

In fact, and Donna's friends with Bruce, wasn't he?

And you sent nude photos of yourself to Bruce while you were married to Don.

That wasn't why I was married to him, blah, blah, blah.

He said, so you sent nude photos of yourself.

And then we kind of had this happen three times where she wouldn't answer the question

directly.

And then the judge and, you know, the prosecutor starts objecting and she's like, ask and answer

it, ask and answer it.

And the judge was like, it was asked, but it wasn't answered.

And so, and then he goes, ma'am, I'm not going to let Ms. Gardner badger you, but you

need to answer her questions and you need to answer them with a yes or no.

And so she was like, what was the question again?

And so I asked again and she goes, yes, I did.

But that wasn't while we were married.

I'll ask you another question, ma'am.

And so then we get through that basically.

And then I'm off the stand.

Oh, at that point though, the prosecutor is fuming and she has a stack of papers and she

asked to approach.

And I had already motioned and eliminated.

She did have, Monica had a protective order against Don at some point.

And basically that was handed over to me and I had motioned and eliminated to keep any domestic

stuff out.

So at this point she has all her domestic stuff that she's like, now I can bring it in.

To elaborate further on this, prior to trial, the judge granted Alexa's motion to exclude

the evidence of the protective order the mother had against her client and any other evidence

relating to domestic issues between the two, as it was not relevant to the case at the time

and more prejudicial.

However, because Alexa cross-examined the mother on all of her evictions, the prosecutor

was now arguing before the judge that the evidence is now somehow relevant to explain why the mother

had all of her evictions and it should be allowed into evidence.

And so we have a little sidebar with the judge and she makes her argument.

And then I start to talk and the judge is like, when I want a response from you, I'll

ask you for one.

And I'm like, oh, whoa, my bad.

But then he's like, no, it's not coming in.

So I was like, okay, cool.

He didn't even need to hear from me.

He's like, I don't think the door was open at all.

And she was like, well, she was asking her about leaving apartments because she was evicted.

And she actually, I have proof she left an apartment because they were on the run from

him because he was making their life miserable.

And the judge is like, no, irrelevant.

Yeah.

Which one?

Which one?

Because she left a few of them.

Right.

Who was she on the run from?

I mean, so if you want to.

If you want to continue to go down this, this path of, of, of her, her, her, her life,

we can.

You want to bring this bad fact up again?

She left one apartment because she was afraid of the six that she left.

Yeah.

Let's talk.

Let's keep talking about it.

Yeah.

She left six apartments.

Yeah.

Let's keep on.

Now, at this moment when the judge cuts off his favorite prosecutor or whatever she called

herself and like said, I'll, I'll talk to you when I want to be with you.

Do you, I mean, how do you start feeling?

Cause this is your first jury trial bar.

Do you have like the confidence going?

Do you feel like you got a group going?

Well, after I was like licking my chops and the way that, that cross went of her, I was

just like, oh my God, this couldn't have gone better.

Like I'm, I'm doing something here, especially with the like surprise, you know, like almost

impeach yourself with my manila envelope and like, it was just like, this is awesome.

Yeah.

No, at that point she's, she's like very upset.

The prosecutor's like stomps away and she's like slams her paper on the desk and she's drinking

her water all vigorously.

And like, she was, she was just not happy.

She was really upset because I think she didn't realize that that was going to go so poorly

either because she, cause she didn't, you know, she wasn't hearing my, my theory of the case.

So her and her client are looking bad in front of the jury.

Her client.

I know.

It seems like that was her client, right?

Like she's the mom's personal persecutor.

Yeah.

So who, who testified next?

Oh, it was the girl.

You know what?

I, I've actually mistaken that it was the girl first.

Mom was third, but so, yeah.

So, but the girl did testify and I asked her about, um, pull-ups if she wore pull-ups and

she said, yes.

Ooh.

So then when mom had said there wasn't any pull-ups, it was like, okay, well, you know,

Lydia's already told us she does wear pull-ups.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Okay.

So.

Mom is a liar, ladies and gentlemen.

Right.

Okay.

So first, the, basically the kid, she hasn't seen her dad now in over a year.

And so she's seen him for the first time.

Yeah.

In the courtroom.

And she's like, you know, kind of acting weird, doesn't want to look over him.

And they have this thing with the dog, you know, when child victims go to testify, they

like send them up there with this animal and, um, and then they hold like a little duplicate

of the animal stuffed animal type thing.

Right.

And so they were doing all that and playing it up a lot.

And like I said, this kid is a little slow.

So she's seen, yeah, she acted very young for her, for now she's eight years old or whatever.

But the prosecutor asked her, oh, do you have a dad?

No.

Well, remember we talked about your dad.

Who's your dad?

And then she says, okay, Dawn.

But she's really trying to have to coax it out to the point that the kid's not answering any questions.

So she just starts asking straight leading questions.

And the judge allows it.

And she gets the kid to come out with it and say, yeah, daddy touched my kitty cat.

Um, but now she says twice.

So it went from all the time to four times.

And now it had just happened two times.

So it's like, okay, well, that's good.

I'll take that.

I guess it keeps doing less and less.

Just to clarify.

So at first when the prosecutor was questioning her, she was doing open-ended questions and, and the girl was denying it or saying no, right?

To everything.

Yeah.

So then, okay.

So then she, that allowed her to start going into cross-examination or to ask leading questions, right?

Were you object, were you objecting at all or?

Yeah.

I said objection leading and, you know, the judge was like, oh, well, I'll allow it basically.

Yeah.

It was just like, oh, well, whatever, let's move it along.

Yeah.

So then the, did the prosecutor then ask a leading question to be like, and is that your dad right there sitting right there?

That's him right there.

Yeah.

Yes to that.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, all right, go ahead.

Tell me about, tell me about your cross then.

So I, tell us about your cross.

I just, I started that prosecutor too.

She's like in charge of the kids team and she always does kids cases, but I don't think she's good with kids at all.

It's just, she puts on a lot and you can tell.

And it's just like, and she, she, you know, she doesn't have any kids too, for sure.

But so I just had a softer approach with the kid.

But of course I was still asking leading questions.

I was like, you and your daddy used to spend a lot of fun time together, right?

You'd go to the movies.

Yeah.

You liked that, didn't you?

And he'd buy you your favorite color nail polish.

Yeah.

You like that.

And daddy would help you when you weren't feeling good.

Yeah.

In fact, weren't you having some problems down there in your kitty cat?

Yes.

And it was itchy, wasn't it?

Yes.

And daddy put some cream on it, right?

Yes.

And you've made you feel better.

Yes.

Okay.

So daddy, the only time daddy touched your kitty cat was when he was trying to help you

feel better, right?

Yes.

So it was, it was great.

Flawless victory.

Yeah.

But at one point though, she did try to say something that was inconsistent.

I forget what it was, but I remember I tried to kind of impeach her like, well, remember

you testified to the court before and you said this.

And she was just like, she just, she just clammed up.

She wouldn't say anything.

So I was like, all right, well, let me leave alone.

Let me not try to impeach this kid.

But it was something that was, I remember significant, like, hold on.

Whoa, whoa, what?

And it also shows her suggestibility, right?

So she'll just say whatever the person who's asking her a question will say.

So yes, she's told three different stories and she'll tell a fourth one if you ask her

tomorrow, because she's very suggestible because she's a kid.

Right.

So then on your cross-examination, like you, you just asked her questions for your, your

theory, theory of the case saying like, well, it's because you had

cream and I put the cream on and that's the only time he touched you.

So then you didn't try to get her to deny what she told the prosecutor then, right?

You didn't try to go that far.

No.

Okay.

Okay.

I feel like some lawyers might, you know, you got to quit when you're ahead.

Absolutely.

Right.

Well, that's a problem too.

You know, asking one question too many.

And I think that's what I had done when I was like, oh, well, hold on.

Let me try to impeach her.

And then I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

Let's just, let's quit while we're ahead.

Just trying to get enough to argue.

I don't have to prove anything.

I just have to show, I just have to bring some, some, some reasonable doubt here.

Right on.

And so she testified first then.

Yes.

And then the mother testified after her.

Okay.

So she testified, then brother testifies.

Oh, brothers.

Okay.

Yeah.

And brother, and I'm, now I'm prepared for him to say, oh, I know what it was with the

girl though.

I said, and daddy told you to tell your mommy after he touched you.

Right.

And she said, no.

And I was like, well, do you remember you testified?

Right.

And you told them that.

And she just wouldn't say anything.

But that was, that was the key part that was like, well, hold on.

You had been saying the whole time that he told you afterwards, tell your mom, I checked

you.

And then now all of a sudden you're saying that he told you not to tell anyone.

And so that's what I was trying to go back on.

But I'm like, okay, I can get it out, you know, in another way, because they were going

to have their forensic interviewer testify and all that.

So that's why I was like, okay, let me leave it alone.

So brother testifies.

And basically when he's asked about, it was really endearing how he started off.

It was like, so who is Don to you?

And he's like, oh, well, he's, he's like the only dad I've ever known.

You know, he took me around.

He taught me how to play basketball.

We would play video games together.

And, and so that was already like, okay, this is great.

You know, starting off nice.

And then we're asked, oh, well, did you see him touching Olivia?

Yeah.

I saw him touching Olivia once.

And so I'm like, okay, well, good.

At least now it's only once.

You said last week it was twice.

But he said, he, you know, he peeked through the door and saw it and they kept it pretty

short with him.

But she did ask him, oh, were you ever, does he ever act weird around her?

And he was like, well, he sleeps in the bed with her and, you know, he hugs and kissed

her along and he'll have her sit on his lap.

And so when I got up, I was like, okay, he sleeps in the bed with her.

How many beds are in this apartment?

One.

Okay.

You come to visit.

Where do you sleep?

On the couch.

Okay.

So basically either you guys both sleep on the couch or you sleep on the couch and she sleeps

in bed with her dad.

Right?

Yeah.

Okay.

And he hugged her and kissed her.

Right.

Would he hug you and kiss you too?

And he's like, well, yeah.

Okay.

Did you ever sit on his lap?

Well, I guess when I was younger.

When I was seven.

Right.

And so I was like, now you said you saw one time you peeked through the door.

The door wasn't locked, was it?

No, it wasn't even closed.

So you were able to come to the door.

Okay.

And you, you heard Lydia saying earlier that she was itchy down there, didn't she?

Yeah.

I did hear her say that.

So he was just help applying cream.

He was like, well, I didn't see any cream.

That's what he said.

But it was like, okay, well, you already saw that she was itchy.

Like, great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and I was like, also your dad lets you come into the room.

Right.

He said, go ahead and use the restroom.

Didn't he?

Yeah, he did.

He didn't try to stop you from coming in there and seeing anything.

No, he didn't.

Didn't act surprised.

Right.

So that was great.

So then mom gets up and then that's when mom is saying, no, there was never any issue down there.

She didn't wear pull-ups.

So it was already like, well, she told me she wore pull-ups.

Now you're saying she didn't.

And there was never any rash or itchiness, but your son confirmed that she was itching.

So that's why I like when the mother was testifying about that stuff, about denying all about the creams and the itchiness.

Like she just, we just had testimony from the kids saying all this.

So it just makes her look that much worse.

Right.

And talk about why, why did you like having women on the jury when it came to talking about the rash?

The yeast infection.

Yeah.

The yeast infection.

Why do you like having women on the jury for that?

Well, honestly, I didn't know that it was going to turn to that.

I thought my, my client said it was a diaper rash.

I thought it was a diaper rash.

So when she says yeast infection, I'm like, whoa, what?

But it's like, okay, women have yeast infections, you know, you know, at some point in your life, you've probably gotten one and you know, damn well, you won't need some cream.

There's no, no shower.

That's going to ease.

But it shows how endearing the guy is.

Right.

Cause he's like, I don't know what that is.

He's just like a diaper rash.

Yeah, exactly.

But it also, yeah.

Mom says, put it on.

I put it on.

Cause she's, you know, that's just what.

Right.

Sure.

And it gives some credence to him because if she said, no, there was never any issues.

And it's like, okay, well maybe is he lying about some cream?

You know, there was never any cream.

But the fact that she's confirmed and the kid did have some kind of rash.

I'm like, okay, well, this is relatively consistent with this story.

So they have the child sex abuse expert, you know, the pediatrician get up there.

And he's very compelling.

He's always testifying in these.

But, you know, he gets up there and basically say he didn't find any abnormal findings.

Her vaginal exam looked normal.

And that is consistent with child sex abuse, basically.

Everything's consistent.

You know, if you don't find anything, it's consistent.

If you do find something, that's consistent.

If he's left-handed, it's consistent.

If he's right-handed, it's consistent.

If he didn't do it, it's consistent.

If he did it, it's consistent as well.

That part.

Yeah, but it was good.

I took this opportunity to, like, make him my own witness.

So I was like, so getting the family history and all that is important, right?

When you're, especially when the patient's a child.

Yeah.

So you got the child's vaginal history from the mom?

Yes.

Did she disclose to you that the child had yeast infections?

No.

Oh, she didn't in this exam about her vagina tell you that she had been having yeast infections?

No, she didn't.

Would that have been pertinent information?

Yes.

And what would you prescribe for a child with yeast infections?

I'd give an antifungal cream.

A cream.

Okay.

And is that, that's the course of treatment for a yeast infection every single time?

Is it not?

Yes, unless it's really bad and you need the cream and an antibiotic.

And it's like, okay, all right, good.

And just for the record, it's not a shower, is it?

Right.

What, so a bath, would a shower over a bath be something?

Mm-hmm.

No.

Okay.

I want to know.

But the prosecutor had also brought up the fact that the kid was bedwetting and said that,

oh, that's a sign of trauma that, you know, she might be being sexually touched.

And so the kid was bedwetting and he goes, yeah, that, you know, trauma can manifest itself

in different ways.

Sometimes in young children, it's bedwetting.

So I also, I asked about, well, is, would switching homes routinely be traumatizing to

a child, unstable living conditions?

Yes, it would.

What about different men in and out of the child's life?

Or what about a new divorce?

Would that be traumatic to a child?

Could that manifest as bedwetting?

Yes, it could.

Go back to like when you were talking to him about prescribing antifungal cream, like,

you know, defense attorneys, we always like that sound cool and be like on cross, yo,

I'm crossing the expert, you become the expert, you know, and sadly, in this case, you became

the expert on common sense, how to treat a fungus issue, you know, like.

Yeah, that was crazy.

In your first jury trial.

I know, it was my expert.

I know, all there is to know about antifungal cream.

Did extensive research on.

Okay.

Yes.

So, all right.

Any, any other evidence for the prosecution in this case?

Well, so they did put the forensic interviewer up and show that the little girl's forensic

interview.

And basically, I was able to just get out of the forensic interview that she originally

when she recorded this, she said to that her dad told her, tell your mommy I checked you.

Right.

And she said, yeah, that's what she said.

So, I was like, all right, that's all I need from you.

Okay.

And then there were a couple of cops.

And, you know, the main cop, I was like, so you called him up, right?

And you told him there have been these allegations.

And he came immediately, didn't he?

Yes.

And he voluntarily surrendered himself.

Yeah.

And he volunteered for a polygraph.

Yeah.

Did an interview.

He was always forthcoming with you.

Mm-hmm.

Absent a lawyer.

Right.

Never asked for a lawyer or anything.

So.

Maintained his innocence throughout the interview.

Mm-hmm.

Pretty intense interview, wasn't it?

Cool.

And then, so the people rest then, right?

Yes.

So, people rest.

And, you know, at that point, the judge was like, okay, and now would be the time normally

people would move for a demur.

So, if you want to do that.

Oh.

Because he's still, he's still kind of coaching me through the.

Yeah.

Knock that out.

It's, uh, right.

I was like, I plan on it, judge.

I move to demur.

Exactly, right.

Motion to dismiss based on insufficiency of the evidence.

Right.

And so, he was like, you know, no, I'm not going to grant that.

Oh, what a tease.

What a tease.

Right.

And so, I move on to my evidence, which I put his daughter, he had a grown

daughter who was like 20 years old, um, from his prior marriage.

And so, I, you know, questioned her about, has there ever been anything that was inappropriate,

you know?

And she said, no.

In fact, I had a bunch of female cousins and he was always the favorite uncle and he was

always around children and there was never any issues, you know?

And so, that was great.

However, she had gotten on Facebook and she was basically sending nasty messages to Monica.

She was like, if my daddy goes down for this, that's going to be your ass type of thing.

And so, she was, uh, she was confronted about that and I didn't know about that.

So, you know, the prosecutor's like, didn't you write this?

Blah, blah, blah.

So, you're threatening the mother of a victim?

Sure am.

Won't, you don't know what happened?

Don't you want to, don't you think, you know, Lydia has the right to, you know, have her

accuser tried in the court a lot, whatever.

No, I think she's alive.

At least, at least the prosecutor had her moment, finally, in this trial.

Right, yeah, she did.

She had her moment.

Finally found something, did some work, did some investigating, told her friends at the

office that this is what she's going to do and she came back and said she did it, so.

Right, and I had my moment where I got upset, like, once that happened, I, like, stood up

and I objected and, you know, it was like, I'm on grounds and it's devastating to my case.

But I, but I objected, like, what, no?

Your honor, she's tripping.

Your honor, she's tripping.

Right.

She's tripping.

Right.

So.

That's okay, that's okay.

Yeah.

What happens next?

And then, okay, the next witness is his neighbor and he testifies how, you know, after he moved

in, you know, they had, you know, would just exchange, like, say hi, whatever, but they

weren't close.

Um, but he saw after, um, Monica moved out that she came around a couple times after that

and basically destroyed his cars.

He's like, well, I saw her.

She went to his one car that was parked right there and she kicked off the rear view side

mirror and then she ripped off the windshield wiper and then she went around to the other car

and, and then I just looked away, but then I heard a loud smash.

And when I looked back, the windshield, and so, and then, you know, I just asked why, so you're

not friends with Don, are you know, and you're not enemies of Monica, are you?

You're just saying what you saw, right?

And he's like, yeah.

The prosecutor didn't have any questions for him.

Did you ask if he, did you ask if he got a nude picture of her on his phone after that?

Right.

And then all of a sudden my phone buzzes and.

No, none of that.

And then the next person was, um, his ex-girlfriend and she was really nervous.

So she was talking really fast and loud.

And I'm like, and, and the court reporter's just like, you know, looking at her all crazy.

Um, and so the judge is like, ma'am, I'm gonna need you to slow down.

I'm gonna need you to, you know, and, and I was like, just tell me.

So what happened?

She's like, well, one night I was at his house and out of nowhere, we hear a car pull up and

she comes and runs around to the bedroom side window and she's pounding on the glass till

it breaks.

And so then he goes out front and then she storms in the house and she's tearing pictures

off the walls and all this.

And she's like, and I didn't want no problem.

So I was getting ready to leave.

And then I see the kids in the car and it's about 1230 in the middle of the night at this

time.

And so she was, you know, telling that story, which was funny.

And I was just like, and I was like, okay, all right, like, let's stop there.

And she's like, no, no, no.

There was another time that we were out at the nightclub and then he came up in and snatched

his hat off his head and threw her drink in his face.

And I was like, oh, okay.

All right.

And it's another time we were at the beach and she showed up and the kids didn't have

nothing.

Did the prosecutor try to cross examine on that at all?

She wanted to ask her timing.

She just asked her time.

She said, oh, and when did this happen?

And so, yeah.

And then the last person is my client and he gets up there.

And I'm like, okay, so have you ever been convicted of a crime?

Yes.

DUI.

In fact, you know, I'm serving time on this DUI right now.

And so we just get that out of the way.

Right.

And I'm like, oh, so you pled to that, right?

Why'd you plead to that?

Because I was guilty of it.

Well, you didn't plead to this because I'm not guilty of this.

No, I would never touch anyone's child.

And he was, you know, just real forthcoming and just seemed real sincere about this.

And he talked about how, yeah, she brought the cream over and how, you know, over the weekend, they had a great time and everything was all good.

And how he was so upset when, you know, she came with this new guy because he's just like, man, she's not thinking.

And, you know, he was way over, he was way over all that stuff that happened with, you know, her cheating on him and all that.

And he felt bad about that.

He's like, yeah, you know, I probably shouldn't send those pictures to everybody at the church, but.

Nice.

Maybe.

Yeah.

And then how did the prosecutor cross-examine him?

So she was like, actually, so he had kind of missed, he said, oh, there wasn't, there wasn't a hearing or anything when we talked about his DUI.

And she's like, you're saying you didn't have a hearing?

Didn't you have to change your plea?

And that happened at a hearing, didn't it?

So you requested a hearing and it was like, and then he was confused, but it was, it was like a really cheap shot.

Like, oh, what are you saying?

He wasn't contesting his innocence or like, oh, at the arraignment, he's pled not guilty initially, initially, like, and so that was just kind of a cluster.

But then she, the one thing she did do is she asked him about how he gives his kid a shower and stuff like that.

And, and she said, and then you check her after, don't you?

And he said, no, I mean, I just, that time to put that stuff on her.

He was like, you're saying you don't check her after a shower.

And then he's like, no.

And so she's like, I need a second, your honor.

And she like pulls up on the computer and it's his, his interview tape.

And she pulls it right up to the second and plays it where it's like, where he says, oh, after she gets out of the shower, I check her.

And so she just plays that split second where he says he checked her.

Right.

And I completely forgot about this video that, you know, I mean, I watched it, but I didn't have him watch it again prior to his testimony, which I learned that lesson hard.

But I always haven't watched her previous statements again if they're going to testify.

But I like, you know, requested a brief recess and I looked at the tape and, you know, he says, yeah, I was gonna, I checked her after her shower.

Oh, checked her to put some cream on her eczema or whatever.

And so that was the next sentence.

But without that context, it made it seem like, oh, he's lying.

He did be going in her vagina every time she gets out of the bath.

Oh, so you caught her in a lie.

So now even the prosecutor's playing dirty.

Oh.

Right.

Basically.

Oh, that's not good.

Oh.

That's not good.

So, so basically now the prosecutor's losing, losing credibility.

Like, no, let me finish.

Let's do the whole statement.

Exactly.

Ladies and gentlemen, now, you know why we're here.

You know why we're here.

Cause they're not going to be, you know, they're going to, they're going to cut corners here.

They're not going to get the whole story together.

They're going to cut, cut, cut statements.

So you hit play.

So you hit play, rehabilitate your client, play the whole sentence.

You get the context to everything.

And then that was pretty much all.

Man, what a, what a, what a sad way to end a trial for a prosecutor, you know, what a sad, you know, like you should be like, you should be noble in your losses as a prosecutor.

If you're going to lose, you got to do it the noble way that we want you to do it, you know?

Right.

Stop trying to win trial ad.

This is, you're not getting points from a, from a group of people who are the judge.

This is actually a jury in real people's lives.

Tell us about your closing argument.

So closing argument, basically the prosecutor gets up there and she's over here trying to rehabilitate Monica.

She's like, you know, Monica got up here and she had to share some things with you that weren't so, you know, we're, we're kind of embarrassing, but she was honest with you.

And she told you hard things.

And then she went into the fact about, oh, cause I did ask the child about, um, putting his finger in her vagina.

I said, so he just put his finger, he put his hand on me once, right.

Or, or more than, you know, they, she had tried to make her say it was more than once.

And then she came back and said it was only once.

So the prosecutor said during closing, like, I don't care how many times if it was once or more than once, putting your finger into this developmentally delayed little child.

It's vagina once is more than enough.

And she was like, really distraught about that.

And she was like, and you know, Ms. Gardner didn't ask, uh, Monica about these instances with vandalizing a vehicle.

Who knows if that even really happened?

Uh, cause it's like, yeah, why am I going to ask her so she can lie about it?

But she was kind of critiquing the way that I didn't ask certain people questions, um, during her closing.

And it was just pain, you know, outrage.

As if you have the burden of proof, I don't have to prove nothing.

Right.

Right.

Tell us about your closing then.

So, um, oh, there was another thing I recalling now during, uh, during Monica's cross, I asked her, I was like, so after he out of those pictures, you vowed to get revenge.

Right.

And she was like, oh no, I don't get revenge.

I'm a Christian woman.

I let God get my revenge.

So during, during closing, I was like, now, and you heard from her, I don't know about how honest she was with you all.

You saw that she was about to lie to you about getting evicted from the apartment until she saw I had the envelope and the proof in my hand.

And honest with you about the judge had to, had to drag it out of her when I asked her about this.

So I don't know if the prosecutor was witnessing something I wasn't, um, but don't let the her salt insult your intelligence.

And so I said, and she said, she's a woman of God and she doesn't let, she doesn't get revenge.

She lets God get revenge.

But it wasn't God who bashed out my client's windshield.

It wasn't God who broke his bedroom window.

It wasn't God who broke off his rear view mirror.

Or slept with the pastor.

Yeah.

And, and then I just went into all the reasonable doubt.

Like, first of all, why would the kids, why would she tell your dad, I checked you?

You heard Don.

He said, after he did it, he said, let your mama know that I checked you and I put the cream on you.

So why would he tell her, you know, to tell someone if he was doing this nefarious thing?

Why would he even have his 13-year-old stepson come visit if he wanted to touch his daughter's vagina?

He could do that in peace.

Say, no, I don't want the 13-year-old there.

Or close and lock the door if he's doing something nefarious, right?

So I just pointed out, I was like, not only is it, you know, is there a trickle of reasonable doubt, but it's flooding.

It's cats and dogs out here.

Were the jurors responding to your argument?

Yeah, they were.

They definitely were.

Because they were, like, completely put off with Monica and her behavior.

What she said that her daughter had either a rash or a yeast infection and that a doctor told her that she only needed to take a shower?

It's like game over.

Anything you say after that, I don't believe you, bro.

I don't believe you, bro.

Like, like your daughter was having these issues and you didn't take care of her or you're lying to us on the stand.

Either one of them is completely unacceptable.

Right.

And you would think she would know better than that.

Like, you know damn well a doctor didn't tell you to take a shower instead of a bath to treat the yeast infection.

Unless you're taking them to the corner store, doctor.

I mean, Dr. Seuss.

Right.

I don't know who these people are.

It's insane.

It was insane and it's insulting.

It's, like, crazy insulting.

So how long did the jurors deliberate for?

45 minutes.

Nice.

And how did you feel, like, during that 45 minutes?

I mean, I was, you know, I was just like, that was the most intense experience of my life up to that point, you know.

And I was just like, wow, okay, well, we'll see now, you know.

But I was like, it has to.

I'm like, he's innocent.

So if he doesn't get off and it's all my fault, then I've convicted an innocent man, basically, you know.

So I was worried.

But, yeah, it came real quick.

I was like, okay, I think that's good.

And then as soon as the one and only black juror stood up and was our foreman, I was like, yes.

I was like, without war, they were like, oh, we're going to have the black guy sentenced to the black guy.

It took them 44 minutes to decide who the foreperson is going to be and a minute to decide that your client was not guilty of all charges.

Tell us about that.

Tell us about the reading of the verdict and how your client reacted.

So when he read the verdict, he just like broke out and cried.

He was like, and he like just like put his head down on the table and he was just so overwhelmed because, you know, his whole life got ruined.

Basically, he was a man with a job and then all of a sudden he's a convicted felon in prison and fighting this case over that damn DUI just because, you know, they assume like, oh, he probably didn't molest this kid.

So, yeah, let's just get him on his way sooner.

So he instantly was put into cuffs and taken back.

He had to go back to the Department of Corrections to serve out his sentence.

So that was also, but he was just like, he was just smiling, tears coming down his eyes.

He was like, thank you so much.

Like, it's all good.

I did, you know, drink and drive.

So I got a fifth consequence for that.

You know, I know you got to get going, but, you know, Alexis, thanks for stopping in and sharing your story with me.

This is a great trial.

This is fun.

I had a great time today.

This was awesome.

This was good.

Thank you.

Yeah.

No, thank you for having me.

I've been listening.

I don't have any episodes that I haven't listened to, so we got to get some more on there.

Yeah, I know.

This is good for your first jury trial, too.

This is quite the story.

A 25-year exposure case on a sensitive subject like this.

So that was really good.

I just think you really stepped up to the moment.

That's a once-in-a-lifetime case.

Yeah, this is why it definitely was a once-in-a-lifetime case, especially to cut my teeth on a case like that where, you know, I became a public defender or defense attorney because I wanted to, like, give a voice to the voiceless.

And, I mean, I saw myself being a freedom fighter and wanted to be, like, you know, Nelson Mandela or Gandhi, and they were both trained as lawyers.

So it was like, okay, this is a way for me to actually fight for people's freedom.

And with that case, it was just like, man, what worse of an injustice, you know, because obviously we have a lot of cases, and a lot of times people aren't actually innocent and being framed by some conniving ex-wife, right?

Like, they've made, you know, decisions that they're suffering the consequences for.

But there are those people that are just being screwed by the system, and they need someone to speak up for them.

So I'm still, I check in with him routinely.

It was, like, helping him getting that case expunged.

And I even, when I teach my class, I teach a criminal class, at the end, I have the people talk to the students, and he's one of the people.

Yeah, so he's, you know, he's a good man, and we still have a good relationship.

And, yeah, that was a good case.

Well, Alexis, not bad for your first time.

And speaking of first times, George, not bad for your first time either.

Glad to have you on the podcast today, the co-host.

Appreciate you.

It was fun.

Let's do it again.

Let's do it again.

All right.

I know you got to get going.

So see you all later.

Thanks, Alexis.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A&G theme music composer, and Mike Grimm for the remix.

And guess what?

We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.