You've Got Mail, Cuz – When Emails Wreck the State's Case

All right. What's up, my A and G-ers? We got a pretty fun, exciting episode this week featuring another Not Guilty's newest, brightest star with Lauren as the co-host. Yeah, she's awesome. We know you love her. And yes, you could have more of Lauren. But today's episode is all about the amazing, dedicated work of Lauren Connor, a different Lauren, a public defender up in Washington State. And just a heads up, because there are two people on this episode with the name of Lauren, our guest was referred to by her initials as

LC. But during the episode, it sounds like I'm saying Elsie as her name. Hey, Elsie. But it's really just initials. And I want and I want you to know that. But yeah, this is a great episode. It's entertaining. And it demonstrates that we public defenders are just cool as fuck. Also, I just want to say thank you to all the people out there who sent me requests to be on the show. I've received them. And we will be in touch sooner than later. And if you too would like to be a guest, then please visit our website at another not guilty pod.

Dot com and fill out the submission form. Also, don't forget to subscribe, follow and like us wherever you get this podcast. And please, please, please, please, please leave a rating and write a review about how much you love another not guilty. Because I love you. I love doing this podcast. I love being a part of something bigger than all of us, the brighter side of humanity. So with that said, without further ado, here's this week's episode of another not guilty.

Well, I don't remember writing that. But like, you know, I did feel like I had to pretend to be like in a relationship with them. Like, oh, well, that's not the only time you talked about being in a relationship with and that wasn't you know, like it's so then I get to like another one. And I think I read one that said, you know, it's like, I need you. I need need my daddy. I need you and only you please dad come make me all better. Remember, remember when you made me yours in the car in my mouth.

And that was like right when like four o'clock came about.

And the judge was like, now's a good time to end.

You know what, judge? I got a long way to go. As you can see, I got a giant stack of emails here.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore. Here, along with my fellow public defenders, presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not guilty as public defenders get on a daily basis in an unjust criminal system with the deck stacked against us.

And we're recording. All right. Welcome back to Another Not Guilty.

It's your boy, David D here bringing you the freshest not guilties across these United States.

One Not Guilty at a Time. Another Not Guilty. Stories of public defenders tearing down the system.

One case at a time. Showing the world that what's been reports and that we as humans fail to live up to our ideals.

One police officer at a time. We fail to live up to our ideals.

One prosecutor. One judge at a time.

Because we're all just human beings doing our best. Some of us. Some.

But I'm excited about today. I'm excited about today. One of these days I'm going to really just nail that intro.

It's just going to like... One day.

I'm just going to nail it. One day.

It's good to have goals.

That, everybody, is our awesome co-host, our amazing Lauren Marie Manning.

Hi, everyone.

Glad to have you back.

She co-hosted another episode another time, which is not published yet.

But by the time that this episode is aired, it probably will be published.

She's our amazing co-host. Lauren, how are you doing today?

I'm feeling good. I'm ready to do this.

And, you know, Lauren, you're not the only badass public defender out there named Lauren.

Did you know that?

Unfortunately, I had the news today.

I'm not the only original one now.

That's right. Another Not Guilty.

See, get ready, because our guest today is a public defender all the way from King County, Washington.

We got Lauren Connor with us today.

Lauren, how are you doing today?

I am doing great today.

It's sunny out here in Seattle.

Summer has officially started, so we're doing great here.

So, Elsie, you're up there in King County, Washington.

That's right.

How long have you been a public defender up there for?

I just hit my seven-year anniversary this month.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. So, again, that seven-year itch, I guess, if you will.

All right, Elsie.

So, you're a badass public defender who recently got a Not Guilty in trial.

You reached out to me.

You said you wanted to be on the show because you wanted to share it with the audience of the Not Guilty.

So, tell us. Take us away.

Yes.

How did you dismantle the state's case, the wheels of mass incarceration, and show the jury that it was a bunch of bullshit?

Now, what was your client charged with?

My client was charged with a single count of rape in the second degree.

So, that means he was charged with allegedly using force to rape somebody.

An adult.

An adult.

Okay.

That's right.

It just so happened, though, that my cousin and the alleged victim happened to be second cousins.

That's also sort of a fun fact about this case.

Wait.

Your cousin happened to be second cousins with the victim.

My client, yes, is second.

Oh, your client?

My client, yes.

Oh.

I thought you said you're.

Yes.

Okay.

I thought I had the same.

Okay.

I was like, wow, this is an unexpected wrinkle.

Whoa.

No, yeah, no.

Instead, it's like, no, my client is second cousins with the alleged victim, who we'll call Pamela.

Oh.

So, your client allegedly raped, with force, his second cousin.

His second cousin.

That's right.

Yeah.

Okay.

What would be a first degree rape, then?

A force is second degree.

Yeah.

First degree would be like, he used a weapon, right?

So, all right.

Oh, Jack.

At knife point, and I raped you, right?

That would be a rape in the first degree.

And then we have rape in the third degree, which is lower, and that's just no consent.

Is it incest, too, if it's his cousin?

Was that uncharged?

No, actually, in Washington State, it's not, because they are second cousins.

So, their mothers, one of which was a witness in our case, was our cousins themselves, and

they have, so their grandmothers are sisters.

So, yeah, it's like, because it's that far down the line.

So, free love in Washington.

Yes, free love for all your second cousins and cousins.

Okay.

Yep.

You'll have some hot second cousins, right?

We all do.

I guess, you know, I mean, I have floated this idea to a lot of people, and they're like,

I would never be attracted to any of my cousins.

Washington and the royal family.

Got it.

That's right.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

So, tell us, what did your client allegedly do, though?

What does a police report read?

What are the prosecution facts?

Yeah, let me, I'll try to make it as brief and simple as possible, because it is, it just

gets, this case was like an onion, right?

Like, the more you kept going back the layers, the more you kept getting.

But the basic facts were that my client had sort of, so my client had been in federal prison

for a really long period of time for 10 years on unrelated gun charges that had nothing to

do with this case, except it has a lot to do with this case.

But he had gotten out of prison and connected with his second cousin, who the AV, we'll call

Pamela.

My client's name is Chris.

And Pamela and Chris sort of reconnected because she had also been living sort of outside of

Seattle, had recently moved back, was looking for, I don't know, like, family to reconnect

with.

And it just so happened that my client, who was getting out of federal prison and was like

working on his sobriety, they kind of connected and, you know, connected over that, going to

treatment and being super religious.

There was like a weird religious, I shouldn't say weird, you know, if you want to say that,

but they had a very strong religious connection.

The two of them became, start hanging out.

And then this was all in 2016, May of 2016.

Pamela says that she was giving my client, Chris, a ride and that the two of them are in

her car and, but then she had had like some fight with her, like the father of her two

children, whatever.

She lets Chris drive her car and then he drives the car off into this like random sort of empty

parking lot and forces her to give him a blow job in the car.

And then allegedly says after that, like, oh, remember this day because it's our anniversary.

And if you ever cheat on me, I'll kill you.

That's a very romantic beginning.

Very romantic.

Right.

I think it was like a parking lot outside of a Burlington coat factory.

I think it's like the other sort of that was May 2016 until July 2016.

She then says she was, you know, orally and vaginally raped multiple times by my client,

including a time at my client's mother's house.

So her, I guess, aunt's, her aunt's house on the couch.

And let's see, that's like sort of like the second one, because there's like a number of

allegations, but they only charged it as one count.

So that's why it's like kind of like a lot of information.

I think I'm a little lost.

So yes, exactly.

This is one count and one count, one count was about the incident in the car.

No, no.

So it was charged as a charging period.

So in Washington, they can basically say, well, there's an act that we think happened between

May 29th, 2016 and July 27th, 2016.

And if there's multiple acts alleged, what the prosecutor has an option of either making

those their own counts, right?

So adding, so charging them as different allegations.

So it could have been three counts of rape in the second degree or something like that, which

is what they had told us that they were going to do when this case got arranged.

And we'll get to, I guess, why the things ended up the way that it did later.

But essentially, they have the option of either choosing to add additional counts, or they

can essentially say, well, we'll leave it up to the jury to decide.

And the jury has to be unanimous as to deciding which of the alleged acts fit the elements of

the crime.

Oh, wait, this is crazy.

The prosecutor doesn't have to have a set theory about what happened.

They can say, look, in this three month period, she says that he may have raped her in different

ways, in different times, in different places.

And you pick which one you think happened?

Yes.

That's what you're, oh, okay.

So.

Yes.

But the jurors, the jurors have to agree on which one.

All 12 have to agree that one of those acts was proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Like all 12 can't just all pick a different one and say, well, I believe this one.

And then I believe that one.

And therefore, you know, I believe this was beyond a reasonable doubt.

And, but I don't believe that one was.

And then you may believe that one was, but I don't.

But since we all believe something happened beyond a reasonable doubt.

So do they have to put it on the verdict form or something that that's the one that they

agreed on?

No.

So how do you know that they actually really did all agree on the same?

Oh, you don't.

This is what we were thinking about.

Like, well, what happens when we lose?

Like, how are we going to know which act it was?

But yeah.

It sounds reliable.

This is great.

Oh, it's one you're like, well, how, how is this due process?

Right?

I think what is the system that has been created?

Like, this doesn't, doesn't make any sense.

Yeah.

It was, it was, the way it was charged was one of the stranger things that I have seen.

Is that common?

You know, I have not, it's, here's the thing, right?

Like, do you think about charging periods and it's common in child sex cases, right?

Where it's like, oh, like, you know, the kid is now 14 and they're recounting something

that happened when they were six.

And so whatever, right?

Like, and you don't, you know, for a child's sex crime, right?

You usually just have to prove their age and like a sexual act occurred.

And like, that's pretty much it.

But this one was unique because I've never seen it for an adult, right?

It's usually like, oh, a rape happened on this day.

So he allegedly did something to her in a Burlington coat factory or drove the car.

And then on another incident, something happened at grandma's house, right?

Happened at his aunt's or at her aunt's house or my client's mother's house.

Okay.

Yes.

And then the third sort of set of, I think of them as three different instances because

it makes it easier to keep track.

The third thing that happened sort of in this charging period was that sort of unrelated or

not the cause of our client, the AV happened to have an aneurysm rupture.

And so she had to have emergency brain surgery.

She had a rough summer.

And she spent three weeks in the hospital.

She had a rough summer.

It was not a hot girl summer for her.

It was a rough summer.

And she like, you know, did have this aneurysm rupture, had brain surgery to get that removed.

And over the course of the time she was in the hospital, my client who was supposed to be on

federal probation, was skipping out on federal probation to stay with her at the hospital night

and day.

Oh, it is a love story.

It is actually a love story.

Yeah.

And he, so she alleges that she was again, orally and vaginally raped in the hospital.

Oh, not a love story.

Not great.

Yeah.

So then he, let's see, the last time they were, she sees him, my client actually gets

arrested by the U S federal marshals who came to pick him up on the outstanding probation

warrant that he obviously had.

And lo and behold, my client happened to have a gun in his backpack, which was not great because

then he gets later gets federally indicted by the feds.

And that is sort of the, I shouldn't say that's essentially the, what the police report

read at what, at the time I got it.

This arrest by the feds that was unrelated to your case.

That's right.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

And does the police report read anything more specific?

Cause you know, like about like the details of how she was raped in the hospital, how she

was raped at her aunts slash grandmas or someone's mothers, like which room it was like, you know,

like, does it get detailed or is it just sort of like each one has just little paragraphs?

Oh, and on this day he was, she was raped on this.

You know, like, is it conclusory or does it get specific?

It is both and right.

So the, the, the car incident is sort of probably the most detailed, right.

It's like, oh, he held my head, head down, forcing me to give him a blow job.

You know, and you know, I was struggling to breathe.

And then, then they'll, then she'll say, oh, she believes she was orally raped six to

seven times by my client after that.

And that would be the conclusory sentence.

And then it would say, you know, at the aunt's house on the couch, oh, he crawled on top of

me, you know, was crushing me with his weight and I couldn't get up and he raped me vaginally.

And then it's like, we get to the hospital and it's, things start getting a lot less detailed

by the time we get there.

And that's how the police report reads.

So you say you got the case in 2020?

That's right.

It was a delayed charging time as well.

Okay.

Was your client still in federal custody when, was he in federal custody?

So he had, because he had sort of, he had the gun charge, he got indicted federally for

the gun that was in the backpack.

He goes to, he's in federal custody, he's in federal detention, then gets sentenced, goes

to federal prison for a number of years, starting in 2017.

And then he gets, this case gets filed in June of 2020, towards the end of his federal sentence.

And so he was transferred, thought he was getting out of federal prison and he got transferred

down to the King County Jail.

To, yeah, exactly.

And that's when, that was the first time he had actually heard that this case even existed

was in, you know, June 20, I think he got arraigned in July, 2020.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you go, you read the case, you see the charges, you read the police report, you go meet

the client.

What, all right.

What did Chris have to say?

Chris was very adamant that he never raped her, that he was in a relationship with her, they

were going to get married, and that, unfortunately, they had a really nasty breakup while he was

in federal custody, and that she was doing this to get back at him for him being a terrible

boyfriend.

That was what he said from the beginning.

So like, she reported all this happened in 2016, but when did she finally go to the police

about it?

Yeah.

So this gets kind of murky, right?

So she doesn't, the first time she makes the allegations, it's not that she just calls

the police, right?

She doesn't call 911 and reports this.

She makes the allegations in January of 2017, and the first person she ever told was the assistant

U.S. attorney assigned to my client's federal case.

Oh.

That is how the rape allegations came out.

Of course, the assistant U.S. attorney is like, I don't deal with rapes.

You need to call your local police department.

Like, you call them, right?

Like, you go make a report and let us know how that goes.

So she then makes a police report with Seattle police, talks with them for about a month.

And then as soon as that detective is like, hey, let's do a recorded interview, because

here they can do, sometimes in sex cases, they'll do like a recorded joint interview between

the detective and the prosecuting attorney.

And when the detective reached out to her to schedule that she goes, so she disappears, doesn't respond

to any emails, doesn't respond to any texts, phone calls, and they closed the investigation

in 2017.

And then they rebring it back in 2020, because she had found out that my client was about to

be released from federal custody.

And so then she then called the King County Prosecuting Attorney's Office and said, I'm

ready to pursue these charges, and I'm ready to go after them.

All right.

So you meet your client.

He says she's bitter over the breakup.

Right.

Well, and he also sort of, yeah, he clues me into the fact that there should be a lot

of communication that he had with her while he was in federal detention, right, because

he got arrested in the summer of 2016, but the allegations don't come about until, so

that was July 2016, he got arrested by the feds, and then she doesn't make her complaint

until January of 2017.

And he said, well, we were in communication that whole time.

So he's like, if you, you know, like, I talked to her on the phone, they have email, federal

email between inmates.

Thank you, Trulinks and Coralinks, shout out to them for saving my case, because he sort

of clued into me that there should be all of this recorded conversations with them.

He's like, we talked about getting married, we talked, we were definitely in a relationship.

And so he sort of clued me into hopefully finding that that piece of evidence is something

that we need to go look for.

But also, you know, he gave me the names of all his family members and people who would

have observed the two of them during this sort of pretty tumultuous period of time

if we believe the police report, or this, you know, summer of love that was happening.

Other family members who saw that the cousins were in a relationship?

Right.

Exactly.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

Like, who could shed some light on, you know, what is it that they're, how are they acting,

right, when they're coming to family functions, for example?

Because, you know, we have a pretty short window of time.

And they have a pretty, as you can imagine, pretty insular family, given that they love

to date each other.

So, all right.

So tell us what, tell us what you did next.

Did you go track down the emails?

Like, tell us about your, how you prepped the case for, or started investigating it.

Yeah, so I think we started pretty early on sort of talking with, you know, family members.

I think those are sort of the easiest, I call it the low-hanging fruit, to pick up the phone

and call them.

And, you know, of course, we talked with our client's mother, specifically because she had

been, she had been talked to by Seattle police, sort of given a statement, and had said mostly

good things, such as they, like, I knew that they were dating, and they were in a relationship.

And, you know, like, she would bring, she would come over to my house, bring her kids.

Like, they were clearly hanging out all the time.

She seemed to be more interested in the relationship than he was.

And, you know, like, I, she, I think the mom had relayed a story where she's like, yeah,

I came, like, they would sleep on the couch.

And I remember coming out of my bedroom once and seeing them, you know, entwined together

on the couch to sleep.

And there's no way that that would have been the case if they weren't dating, right?

Like, clearly, she's like, clearly they are together.

And she's like, I thought they were in love.

And that was what I believed to be the case, right?

This is just not at all what I thought we were going to be talking about today.

This is great.

Yeah, no, yeah, you're like, this is wild.

Mothers walking in on cousins getting in on in the living room.

I mean, this is, okay.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

Lauren, that's why I have the, I don't, I keep the co-host in the dark because I like

to have this authentic reaction from you, you know?

This is great.

This is told.

Yeah.

Your reactions.

Exactly.

Yeah, we talked to the family.

We talked to sort of like other friends, you know, we kind of had like, some people

would say, oh, like, look, like she like would send me all these Facebook messages and

like, look how crazy she is, you know, sort of messaging me on Facebook.

So, you know, we're sort of trying to chase down every lead that we could.

And then also, of course, we were very curious about the emails because we had talked to the

lead detective and at the time in 2017, when he came onto the case, he was in conversation

with the U.S.

Marshals.

And, you know, he had written somewhere in his report that he had talked with them about,

oh, like, I want to see the visit logs, the, you know, emails, phone calls.

Because of course, right, we all know that every, all of those conversations are all recorded.

And mostly, those are the type of things that our clients usually don't do well for our clients.

I have never had a good jail call.

I'm so excited to hear how you made this work.

Because usually when they say, you know, there are jailhouse calls, it's almost always not

just a nail in the coffin for our case, but usually new charges too, so.

Yes, exactly.

Well, and that's always, of course, the conversation I had with Chris early on is like, if you want

me to go dig this stuff up, like, is there going to be anything in there that is going

to really shoot us in the foot if we get it?

And he's like, oh, well, like, you know, no, like, it's all going to be really great.

And so we finally get the prosecutor to get it from the detective.

And thank God the detective did get them because they would otherwise have been destroyed is

what I later found out from the feds.

But we got 5,000 pages of emails between the alleged victim and my client.

5,000 pages.

Some light weekend reading for you on your case.

So tell us, time to tab and highlights and emails between family members.

Yes.

And let me tell you, thank God for the Control-F search function on Adobe because, you know,

of course, you're like, well, I'll start on page one.

And you realize, right, like, there's sort of like a lot of the emails are sort of duplicated

and there's like replies and things like that.

But what you got to get is like, well, I'm going to just Control-F, like the word rape.

You know, like, how many times does the word rape come up?

Right.

I just want to know off the bat.

And the answer is zero, right?

Then word never comes up in that time.

I was like, OK, we're doing OK, right?

Like, we didn't do that.

But then you start getting these emails where it's like, oh, like they are talking about

sex constantly on these emails.

And like the first thing that sort of stood out to me was like, oh, like all of the email

addresses.

She had several different email addresses that she used.

And it was always like Mrs.

Pamela and my client's last name.

And, you know, like all of these, like all the email addresses were her first name, my client's

last name, her son's first name and my client's last name.

She, I mean, it was, I think she had at least seven different email accounts that she sort

of created to email him while he was in federal custody.

Had the AV not been related to your client, I don't, I think that'd be a bigger deal.

Well, here's the thing.

Her last name is not my client's last name.

That part was.

Well, but she was writing his last name with hers, but and on her children's.

Yes.

Yes.

I mean, she's really starting to.

It was like another level.

The picture I have in my head is sort of like of a stalkerish woman writing her name with

hearts with his name all over the, like on her Lisa Frank binders and stuff.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Well, and it's, it is in like, and they, and, you know, we're talking about emails that

are sent multiple times a day to what she's writing like long pair.

I mean, cause she also happened to be, she's also a spoken word artist or was at some point

in time.

So she is very verbose in terms of like, I mean, she's writing like full on novels about

both like the, both the past sexual experiences that they've had, but also like all of her fantasies.

And so there's all, I mean, and it was, I mean, these emails were, I mean, it was like

a gold mine, right?

Like it was for every instance that had been alleged, that was alleged in detail.

She described it in an email.

As a consensual encounter.

Yes, exactly.

And how much she enjoyed it, how much she thinks about it, how much she can't wait to do it

again.

It was all in the email.

But I guess because the case was so old by the time they filed charges that there was

no actual like SART investigation.

No.

Okay.

No.

Yeah.

So there's no physical evidence in this case to prove the rape.

So how are you feeling then?

You're reading these emails, you're getting a lot of good stuff.

I'm sure you're walking up and down the hallways at a public defender's office, sharing those

emails with anybody that is around.

Oh yeah.

I feel like you got to get up and share that with somebody.

I was reading, you know, sort of reading all these emails that took a long time to get

through and I can say, my client knows this, I did not read all 5,000 pages.

I mean, you kind of got the gist, right?

Yes, exactly.

I kind of got the gist of what was going on.

And I kind of knew, you know, like the more you sort of read it, you kind of get the like

ebbs and flows of the relationship, right?

Like they have fights.

Like clearly they were in a relationship and, you know, that was very evident over the course

of reading all the emails.

And so the next thing, of course, we want to do is like, all right, well, let's talk with

our AV, you know, because here in Washington, we get to do interviews of any witness who

testifies, defense interviews.

And we get to have them as long as we want, as long as we can, like, you know, if you can

show that you're asking relevant questions about the incident.

And so in her case, we had two, two hour interviews.

And after the second one, she's like, I'm not doing another interview.

And I was like, well, I still have more questions to ask.

So we actually had a litigate doing a deposition, which was granted for us because we were like,

well, she says she was raped every time she saw my client.

So like, I got to ask about every interaction she ever had with my client.

You're telling me that the alleged victim can be forced to sit through an interview with

you in the state of Washington?

Yes.

Before the trial?

Yes.

That's amazing.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

And so you get, you know, you get a good way to be like, oh, how is she going to answer

questions?

Like, what are the sort of information we're going to be able to glean from them in advance?

And when you're doing this interview, is the prosecutor there too?

Okay.

Yes.

Yeah.

Did anything good come out of that interview?

Did she say anything that was, or what, how did she, how did it go?

You know, it went.

Did she perform for you?

No, she did not perform for us then.

Although, you know, it's almost like, you know, you would ask her a question, you know,

like, oh, like, tell me about the first time, you know, you met my client.

And, you know, she would kind of like launch into these like really long, like, well, let

me give you context for like everything that was going on.

And she'd be talking for 15 minutes, you know, just like without interruption.

And, you know, she'd be like, oh, well, what was your question again?

And I was like, okay, let me back up.

Right.

So like, it was, you could, I knew very early on, she was going to be very long winded.

She had a very like, sort of like, you could tell that she'd really like thought a lot about

like how she's sort of trying to kind of spin the story in a way that was going to try to

make her look the best and make her client look the worst.

Because she had, you know, sort of like, oh, well, like I had developed a trauma bond with

him.

And so like, even though like, I felt like I was this hostage for this two month period

that I, you know, I was had trauma bonded with him.

And that's why I felt like I had like she had Stockholm syndrome or something.

Yes, yes, exactly.

Yeah.

So she had like a wonderful pop psychology term for everything that went down with our client.

So what happened next in the development of the defense, the investigation?

Well, after that, you know, we were sort of trying to figure out, you know, what defense

witnesses we could sort of bring, you know, whether or not had conversations with our client

about whether or not he would testify.

We ultimately landed on essentially subpoenaing just his mother as our one defense witness.

Okay.

Just because it was, you know, she was, I think the, because she had saw them probably

the most and also because an allegation allegedly happened at her house or a rape allegation

happened at her house.

You know, we felt like she would probably be the best one to be able to bring in since a

lot of the other family members didn't have as much detail.

When you're interviewing the alleged victim and the prosecutors there, did you ask her about

these emails?

Yeah.

So I had her confirm that she actually like, are these your email accounts?

Because of course, right.

You're, what you're worried about is you're going to get to court and she's like, oh, I

didn't write any of these emails.

Yeah.

Actually, someone must have hacked my email account or someone was pretending to be me.

So the prosecutor knew then though about these emails that would purportedly show they

were in a consensual sexual relationship.

Yes.

And the prosecutor was still like, we're going to go forward with trial.

Well, because what ended up happening was that the alleged victim said, well, I was just

pretending.

And those emails, like I was just pretending to be in a relationship because I was so afraid

for my life.

If he were to get out of custody, he would just come kill me because he had threatened to kill

me.

Uh, so therefore I was just pretending the entire time.

Is there, uh, evidence of like how the actual breakup happened or what, like when it, when

it happened in the emails or anything like that?

I'm so glad you asked that because yes, there is nice.

It weighs, um, about, I was just like, it's like a thick set of emails.

I'll just show you to you, even though you can't, Ron, this is audio, but I can tell you

it is a thick 100 page packet.

Um, that's just so on the last, that's just a breakup packet.

Yeah.

Um, and we'll call that the final breakup because they had sort of like little arguments sort

of over the course of this, um, six months that he's in custody.

Um, where, you know, she would always say like, oh, if you leave me, you know, just know,

like, uh, she would quote Bible verses to him.

Like, you know, vengeance is mine.

Say it, the Lord, uh, was my favorite quote.

And I'm just like, okay, well, somebody is merely making a lot of, uh, ultimatums about

being with her.

Um, but the relationship, she's a, she's a Scorpio.

Yeah, exactly right.

She holds on to that grudge forever.

Um, so yeah, so the relationship sort of comes to an end in January of 2017.

Um, and as it's captured over email, uh, is basically, you know, they get into a fight

over, um, basically the level of commitment that my client has shown her, uh, because he

is, uh, she's upset that he's not writing her enough because in all these emails, right,

she would write these novels about how she feels and all the things that are going on

in her life.

And he had to respond with like, okay, I love you, babe.

Oh, you're so hot, babe.

Like, that's basically like as much as he would write from time to time.

And he can't use the excuse.

He has, he has something better to do.

Right.

I was busy.

The game was on.

I was at work.

I was, you know,

you have time and, you know, like sort of the, the thing that's going on in the background

of this, um, as you know, I sort of know, um, is that, you know, he, because he's been

indicted federally, he's also like negotiating a federal case in his, um, negotiating a plea,

um, on his federal case to which he wants her to be able to talk to, like, talk to the

court at sentencing to be able to be like, oh, look, like I'm a good guy.

You know, she's, this is my, you know, soon to be wife.

You know, this is who I'm going to be staying with.

So like, you know, he's trying to get, you know, he is getting her to do something for

him, which is, I want you to be kindly about me at my federal sentencing.

Um, and so over the course of sort of these emails and even in this last fight that they

have, she's like, oh, well, like I'm the key, you know, the key defense witness.

So like, if you want to, like, if you want me to come to court, you will have to stay

with me, right?

Like, this is like sort of the feeling that you're getting over the course of these emails.

Um, and ultimately, right?

Like she gets mad at him about this level of commitment.

She's like, I'm putting in all this time.

I'm emailing you all the time.

I spent all my day emailing you and, you know, paying for all these emails as well.

Cause she's the one putting money on his books.

Um, and she's like, you're not giving enough to me.

And he's like, I just like, I don't know that I want to do this.

Right.

Like I, like you, cause she always finds a way to cut him down.

Right.

Like, oh, like you're a piece of shit.

You're trash.

Like, you're not good enough for me anyways.

Um, and so they get into this sort of argument and he, my client Chris says, well, if that's

how you're going to be, like, I'm done arguing.

Um, if that's how it's going to be like, do not come visit me on visitation, which would

have been like two days after this or three days or something.

And that really sets her off.

Cause she's like, oh, I will not be fired.

I'm quitting this relationship.

Right.

Like that's how this, this ends up going.

And so she then sends this like really long email being like, I'm done.

Like, I'm never marrying you ever.

You're not a real Christian.

You lied to me.

Um, you know, you only lied to, uh, you used me to get like, you know, a good outcome for

your case.

Uh, you're trash.

Uh, this is it, right?

You're never going to speak to me again.

Let's do the time warp again.

We're out of here.

Um, and so they have this, this last email exchange at the end of January, five days later,

she is picking up the phone, calling the assistant U S attorney to be like, Oh, I have

been, I have information about Chris and he raped me.

So that was like the, the timeline was like very obvious, uh, in the email.

Suss, as the kids say now.

Exactly.

Very sus.

Exactly.

About what was like, why she would be so upset.

Yes, exactly.

Right.

That's, that's why you're here, Lauren.

That's why I got you.

Bring in the young audience.

Bring in the youngsters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, okay.

Uh, okay.

There you go.

That's how it went down.

So you got your emails.

We got, we got it.

It's all right there on record.

Yes.

Um, anything else we're doing for, uh, getting ready for trial or defense prep or anything

like that?

No, I think that was pretty much.

It was of course trying to, I mean, I really thought once the emails came out and I did the

interview where we kind of ask her not about all of them, but just that she wrote them

and all this sort of stuff that it would be dismissed.

Um, but that is not what happened.

Well, now what's, what's your client facing with level two, uh, rape charges?

Yeah.

So he has a very lengthy criminal history.

Um, and so he, he would be facing at a minimum for him, it would be 17 years.

Um, but he'd be facing an indeterminate life sentence.

So 17 years was when, if he had been convicted, he would 17, he would have to serve 17 years

in prison and then he would be eligible to go before the indeterminate sentence review

board.

And they would determine whether or not he would be eligible to get out or whether he would

have to continue to stay.

And that would be his life, uh, for the rest of his life.

And sex.

In addition to being a sex offender.

Right.

The sex offender registration.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Lifetime.

Or do they have, do they have the SVP there too?

Sexually violent predators thing too?

Yes.

That's right.

So he would just be indefinitely.

Yes.

Um, so was this, this was always going to be a trial then, right?

There was, was there any hopes of settling the case?

Not really because I think the only sort of, I would call them like half baked negotiations,

um, because my client was never really interested in pleading guilty because he's like, well,

I'm never going to say that I raped her and I'm never, I don't ever, I'm not going to

plead to anything that's going to make me a sex offender.

Um, and that, yeah, reasonable given the circumstances.

Um, but before even the emails had come out, the offer was like, oh, like what about an assault

to what sexual motivation, um, which would be, is a sex offense.

Um, and so, and he would have to have done, you know, pretty close to 10 years, most likely

even with that kind of offer.

And that was even a real offer.

Like there was like a, oh, you know, the conversation you have with the prosecutor in the hallway

before a hearing, uh, like, oh, would your client be interested in this?

And the answer is a resounding no.

Um, actually making the offer, just, would you test the waters?

Yeah, making the offer, just trying to see what, like, your client would be interested

in this.

Um, and so that was, uh, like I said, a resounding no pretty early on.

Um, and then, I mean, even, yeah.

So after that, my client was pretty adamant.

Like, I'm not going to take a deal.

Like, I just want to go to trial and like, I would like to prove my innocence at trial.

I think this is just one of those cases, whereas the prosecutors don't want to go to trial on,

but they feel like they have to, right?

And they can't dismiss it.

Yeah, that's, it's precisely it.

Cause I think the prosecutor in this case told me right around when we first started the trial,

she was like, you know, some cases just have to be tried.

And I'm like, why would you say that to me?

Like, my client is looking at like the rest of his life in prison, right?

Like, what do you mean?

Like some cases have to be tried.

Like, you have ethical obligations yourself, right?

Like, and if you don't believe her or you have concerns about what's happening, right?

Like, why would you do this?

But, you know, they had a, Pamela was on board.

She was ready to come to court and sell him down the river.

Just people, just people falling short of the ideals that we placed onto them, right?

Yeah, that's exactly it.

Chugging along on this little factory of injustice.

That's right.

They're like, it is up to the jury to decide and they wash their hands of it, right?

All right.

All right.

Well, let's jump into the trial then.

Tell us about the judge you're in front of.

So I happen to be in front.

We had a good draw on a judge because, you know, we don't get randomly assigned for trial

to a specific trial judge.

And the judge we happen to be in front of was a former defense attorney.

And so I was like, okay, well, at least you want to have some play.

Yeah, right?

Exactly.

I was like, at least I have some play with trying to get some good results out of, you know,

motions eliminated and stuff.

So we had a good judge with a great bailiff, which, like, you know, I feel like always makes

the world run a lot smoother when you're in trial.

And what about the prosecutor?

You said you have you worked with this prosecutor before?

Is she all right?

Yeah, she's actually, I would say, one of the more, I would say she's like a more skilled

prosecutor than most of them at the office.

Just not more ethical.

You know, yeah, right.

Exactly.

I mean, at least she's like pretty, pretty above board, you know, like at least she's not

trying to be super shady, but, you know, at least, I mean, that's like the only consolation

prize at this point.

The fact that I have to do this trial is beyond.

Well, she's skilled enough to where if, you know, if she starts their case falling apart,

she's not going to do anything, you know, stupid or shady.

Sometimes the dumb ones who can't do something end up doing something shady or hiding because

they have to make up for their lack of skills.

So at least you can kind of hopefully things go the right are done the right way.

That's all I could ask.

Just let's just do it the right way.

Yeah, right, right.

Let's just do it the right way.

Yeah, but of course, right.

Like, no, even, you know, the good prosecutors, quote unquote, you know, still commit all kinds

of weird misconduct in trial.

And that, of course, happened here.

Oh, boy.

All right.

Yeah.

Well, let's get into it.

OK, so tell us about your motions of limine with this judge.

Motions to exclude evidence.

Yeah.

Well, so we had, you know, of course, like I had to make some, you know, as much of an

effort to get rid of any bad stuff, which really in this case was, you know, I forgot about

these letters because I got so focused on the emails.

But at some point over the course of when my client was in federal custody, he had written

handwritten letters to the AV basically being like, oh, like I'm, you know, I'm sorry for

treating you like one of your abusers, I think was like in one of the letters that he had

written.

And he had another one that said, I'm sorry for pushing you into sex when you were saving

it for marriage, right?

Because the AV had, because of this religious sort of background, had become a born again

virgin.

Oh, right.

After she had her children.

Yeah.

She regrew her hymen.

Yeah, after she had her children.

When she found Jesus.

That's right.

OK.

That's right.

That's how that works.

Yeah.

I think Jesus helped her regrow it.

Good Lord, it's a miracle.

A miracle.

It just regrows.

OK.

Yes.

Yes, exactly.

And so that was, you know, a thing that was sort of a through line, which you get, you

know, obviously the email sort of, she goes into length about, you know, like, oh, well,

once we're married, right, like we can do all these things.

And obviously, and that became a sort of a central theme of our case was that, you know,

part of the reason why she's so upset, right, of why they're not going to get married is like

now she's already given it up.

Exactly.

All this sex that she has had outside of marriage, right, for someone she wasn't married

to, but had been promised that she was going to get married to.

So that was like another sort of, you know, the religious shame that she would feel if she

had just accepted the breakup.

But his letters just said basically like, I'm sorry for convincing you, not that I forced

you.

Right.

It just said, I'm sorry for pushing you into sex.

And so that was like, you know, not a great letter was also an incomplete letter.

So I was like, well, judge, how do we know, like, this letter ends mid sentence.

So like, clearly, we don't have the rest of it.

And like, how do we know, we don't know what the rest of the context is, you know, and of

course, you know, judges are like, well, your client can get up there and describe what

the context is.

So I unsuccessfully try to exclude that.

But we had some other sort of, you know, more interesting legal motions eliminated about,

you know, of course, right, like, at this point, the state has foregone the opportunity to add

any charges.

Because like I mentioned before, in their charging document, they had a little asterisk next to

their, you know, like, oh, we're charging one count of rape in the second degree.

But, you know, we may add additional charges if this case goes to trial.

So I had always been expecting like, oh, I'm going to get to trial.

And like, oh, and now we're charging a client with six counts of rape two, maybe the, you

know, a couple counts of rape three, because what has been described, right, is all of these

sort of vague, well, I was raped.

And we can, I guess, infer that she didn't consent to those things, right?

And then you have ones that are more forced.

And so I was like, well, Judge, this seems like a classic 404B thing, right?

Like, you're just trying to get in all this, you know, like, does a bunch of non-consensual

rapes equal a forcible rape?

Because that's what it feels like the state is trying to argue.

And can you describe for our listeners the classic 404B?

I know some law students out there, it's been a while for me since I was in law school,

which is, I know it's a federal, it's like the federal 404 character evidence, right?

Yeah, that's right, character evidence, right?

And so it's like crimes of, like, you know, other bad acts is usually sort of the way I

think about it, other wrongs, other bad acts.

And it's a way for the state to be able to say, well, here's evidence of, you know, the defendant

doing bad things, other bad acts.

And although we're not saying that he did it to act in conformity therewith, right?

Or that he, like, because he did these bad things that now he is currently charged with

doing another bad act that you should find him guilty, but we want you to, right?

Like, that's like kind of how it comes out, right, is this, we're going to, because he

was a bad guy, he must be a bad guy now.

And of course, there's like certain exceptions that have to fit to that.

But of course, the catch-all that I think a lot of prosecutors are able to get in a lot

of stuff under is sort of like, is it the, I think the Latin term is res gesti of the

case, right?

So is it part and parcel of the whole kind of story of the case that the state is alleging

is a criminal act?

And this is where the state now gets the benefit of having charged it the way that they have

charged it, is because now they have this charging period.

And so now they can say, well, we can talk about all of these things, because this goes

to like the elements that she would feel that she was forced to do these things, even if

there wasn't any forced described.

And so that's where it kind of gets into that.

And, you know, it was, we had also like all of these other threats that had been made,

but like all these, you know, because you can force somebody into, I guess, a sexual act

by threatening them, right?

Like, I'll kill you if you don't have sex with me, right?

That can be considered a forcible rape to meet the elements of rape in the second degree.

But we also had, you know, the AV would say, oh, well, he would threaten to kill me if I

didn't wear a wedding ring.

And so you're like, okay, well, if I threaten somebody on a Monday, right?

If I have a threat on a Monday that says, if you don't wear your wedding ring, I'll kill

you.

And then five days later on Friday, you have sex.

Does that make that sex a rape?

Because you felt you were threatened on Monday.

And is that going to be the rape that you, you know, that is, that's happening.

That was, I think, sort of like an interesting legal question here, because the AV was very,

was not very specific about when threats were made in connection to sexual acts.

So we ultimately had a lot of argument about that in Motions Unlimited.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And how did the judge rule on those?

Well, yeah.

Thankfully, we were able to get excluded with a judge called garden variety domestic violence

threats.

So threats of like, I mean, it was pretty great.

I was like, I don't know how we got here, but I'll take it.

So like any time that my client made an alleged threat to her, like, oh, like, if you don't

pick up the phone, I'll kill you or something like that, all that got excluded.

So the only threats she could talk about had to be in connect, in connection with a sexual

act.

And so we were really able to really like, that was a big one.

We had a big win on that one.

And this is like the type of thing where I'm like, oh man, if we lose this case, this

is where we're going to create all this bad case law, right?

Where it's like, well, you're not allowed to do that.

That's actually, this is a judge can't do that.

That was abuse of discretion.

Probably send that one back.

All right, cool.

So then time for jury selection, right?

Yeah, that's right.

Jury selection, which is always so fun in sex cases, right?

I mean, it's, let's order, let's order some more jurors because we're going to lose a

lot, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

We need a big panel.

Yeah.

A lot of jurors.

Yes.

A big pool here.

Yeah.

You need a lot of jurors.

And you're looking for sort of like a lot of jurors, you know, there's in some ways,

right, it can be, or I should say, I think child sex cases are probably the easiest one

to get people off because nobody wants to be on a child sex case.

But in adult rape cases, right, you have.

And if you do want to be on one, you're getting kicked.

All right.

Exactly.

Exactly.

If you're excited to be here, we don't want you here.

We do not want you here to go get justice for anybody.

Like, get out of here.

And it's sort of like similar, right?

With like, you know, with even with adult sex cases, but it's like, you know, you have

so many people who are like, well, like, yes, I'm inclined to just believe her no matter

what.

Because she's coming up here and saying she's been raped because, you know, hashtag me too,

right?

Like, this is like the things that you're having to sort of like voir dire about and

get and get people to showcase their biases.

And so, you know, we were able to get a fair amount of people out.

And then ultimately, the type of juror we were looking for was like someone who was going

to judge the AV for her emails, you know, explicit emails.

That's right.

Yeah.

I was like, you know, I need is like, I need my mom on this jury because my mom would be

like, oh, well, I can't believe she'd be talking so dirty.

There's no way she would talk that dirty with somebody she wasn't dating, right?

Or that she didn't like or didn't want to have sex with.

And that's who I was looking for.

Well, Elsie, can you give us a little taste of your voir dire on a sex case?

Like, how are you like questioning?

Yeah, I mean, I do.

You know, I do sort of like the Colorado method of deselection, right?

So it's like, oh, well, let's start with the biggest bummer and see who's interested in

that, right?

So like, you know, I would just ask people like, oh, like, you know, sort of set the

stage talking about like the Me Too movement, of course, right?

And it's like, oh, well, like, how do you how can you say that you're going to like still

like hold you're still going to believe that my presume my client to be innocent while

also saying like, well, no matter what, I'm going to believe this lady, right?

Like, how do you square those things?

And that's usually where most people kind of fall apart, right?

In terms of like, they're, you know, answering the question because they're going to say

like, well, no, especially here in Seattle, right?

People want to be good liberals.

So they want to be the person who's like, hey, like, no, I believe all women, right?

Like, this is what I want to do.

And you just want to be like, yes, who else here believes all women?

Like, let's, let's all jump on the bandwagon, right?

And so you're able to sort of get people off that way.

Because they ultimately can't actually, you know, they can't, they can't presume somebody

innocent when they're charged because of the allegations.

So that's always sort of a fun part of Wadiar, but yeah.

Did you also look for jurors who hated the spoken word?

No, actually, I wish I had asked.

I wish I had time to sort of ask about that.

But one of my other favorite jurors who ended up being on the jury was a guy who worked for

like the Republican caucus in Washington state.

And I was like, you sir are going to be, I was like, you sir are going to be my number

one juror and actually ended up being juror number two on the jury.

But I was like, no, I was like, look, this is, this is the Me Too movement gone too far,

right?

Like, this is where it's like, hey, do you, you believed in Brett Kavanaugh?

I'm sure you did, right?

So like, that person you want sitting on your jury.

Brett was screwed.

Yeah, exactly.

Brett was strapped.

He had a little button and he wanted, you know, had to like cover his jacket, you know,

and he came into the courthouse or something.

But that guy, I mean, like, yes, somebody, that guy's definitely not afraid to be unpopular,

right?

Right.

Up there in Seattle.

And he's the head of the Republican, whatever, you know, like I'm against the grain.

I'm, you know, like, so I like that.

Yeah, yeah.

When he also happened to be like a lawyer, but never practiced.

And, you know, lawyers are sort of like, can be pretty dicey on juries, especially,

you know, it's always a toss up.

But I was like, oh man, no, this guy, he's going to be able to explain, you know, what

is reasonable doubt.

And he's going to be like, yeah, I can explain that.

And also.

What was your client's race?

This lady.

He was a white guy.

OK, this is perfect.

Get the Republican cognizant guy.

Tell him it's me too, gone too far.

This is one of his people.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

I was like, this is, this is, this is our guy.

This is our guy.

OK.

Yeah.

Anything about the prosecutor's opening or voir dire?

Um, no, you know, it's like she was just looking for people to be like, oh, well, like who

here expects to hear, like, I don't know, DNA evidence in a rape case, you know, and it's

like, well, what if you don't have that?

The CSI questions they ask.

Yeah.

It's always like, can you believe just like, you know, a person's testimony?

Like, is that enough to be able to get a guilty conviction?

You know, that was pretty, pretty run in the middle.

I, I know that voir dire.

It's like, you know, if we don't have any evidence, can you still convict?

What if we don't have evidence like you see in television?

Yeah.

Is that a problem?

Who watches CSI?

You know, it's not really like that, right?

Can you still convict if we don't show you all that stuff?

Can the, can the testimony of one person be enough?

One unreliable person?

One unreliable, is that enough?

Yeah.

There's a jury instruction that says it is.

Yeah.

Do you have a problem with that?

Can you follow that jury instruction?

You can't, you're off the jury, you know, like, they're like, wait, I just, I just asked

a question.

You're doing the perfect prosecutor voir dire.

It's almost like you could do it tomorrow.

What, one time I had to object, like, that's not what the jury instruction says, but they

always mischaracterize the jury instruction.

Like, if the one person testimony is enough, you must.

It's like, no, no, that's not what it says, you know?

So.

Yeah, exactly.

So that was, that was pretty much the, the peak of the prosecutor's voir dire.

All right.

On to, oh, and so how's your client been, by the way, about going to trial?

Is he excited?

Oh, he's stressed out.

He is stressed out.

Yeah.

Well, and like, you know, um, this happens, I feel like a lot of times with clients who

have, uh, very long criminal histories, none of, you know, he's never been to trial.

Um, and, you know, and he's been, you know, pleading guilty to stuff since he was 16.

Uh, so this was sort of a first for him in his fifties to go to trial.

Yeah.

Um, and so I think that that was like a really nerve wracking situation for him.

You know, a lot of anxiety.

Well, now you're going to make him overconfident for the next one.

So.

Yeah, I know.

Well, and of course, like over the course, you know, I represented him for, for this case

was pending for like three years.

Right.

Cause I just did the trial, uh, you know, in May of 2023.

And I feel like we had such peaks and valleys of our relationship because he would say like,

oh, well, like you're not working enough on my case.

Like you're not doing enough, like all sorts of stuff.

He would write the judge and he would ask, you know, like, oh, like my lawyer's not representing

me.

And the judge would like, you know, I'd send me an email saying like, oh, like, do you

need us to set a motion?

Right.

So like, have you discharged counsel?

And I go talk to my client.

He'd be like, I'm so sorry.

I'm just so stressed out.

You know?

And he's like, and he's like, no, like you're doing a great job.

And so like, we just had such like a very, a very up and down relationship.

Uh, up until, you know, like as we got closer to dry and I was like, look, dude, I think

we got her, man.

Like we were, I think we're going to do this.

Like I'm getting pumped.

And you know, he's like, are you sure?

Like, are you thinking we're going to do it?

I'm like, yo, we got this.

We got this dude.

Like we got it.

So yeah, now I have ruined him for the next, whoever the next attorney is, it's going to

be like, why would you, when he won't take a deal to save his life, you know?

So, all right.

Tell us about the, the prosecutor's opening statement.

Oh man.

Try to sell the jurors on this one.

You know, it's like, well, it has problems.

She has problems on the face value.

She has problems.

She's got problems.

She has not much of anything else besides problems in this case.

Well, and like, what I don't understand is like why prosecutors don't like wrestle with

their problems and opening.

Like that is always like the thing I don't understand.

Right.

In the way that we always kind of have to, you're like, we have to, we, we are all, we all,

we always have bad facts and you have to find out a way to make your bad fact.

You're like, okay.

Fact, right.

It's like, that's our, like our magic, uh, that we're trying to do.

And so that looks like a red flag.

It's not a red flag.

It's not a red flag.

That's an orange.

Is that yellow?

Are you colorblind?

Is it green?

Is that a green flag?

It's not a red flag.

Yeah.

Um, and so, you know, her opening was like basically just a, like, you know, uh,

a nicer recitation of the police report.

And I was like, why would you set her up?

Like you have set her up to like, basically sound so bad when I'm about to

explore, like I had two bankers boxes of these 5,000 pages of emails that were

printed.

Did you slam the boxes on the table in front of the jury?

I was like, what is the name, right?

It was to be like, poof, right?

Like, let's get into the email.

Um, and so I'm just sitting here being, yeah.

Yeah, it was like, this is the, it was the best use of a cart, you know, to bring

into court every day.

I'm so jealous.

You know, like walking over to court.

I've always wanted to do that.

Look at all the evidence I have for my client.

Look at all the evidence.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

Um, and it was great because we would show up with more evidence than the

prosecutor did.

And I was like, oh man, this is a first.

I don't know what this feels like.

Yeah, this is some rare territory.

So, okay, I feel like if you, as a prosecutor, if you just start explaining the

facts, it's kind of hard to make them sound reasonable.

Like, well, they're in a car and then they go to a parking lot and then force

it.

And then he forces her to copulate her.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

And then they're still hanging out.

And then now they're by themselves on a couch in their mom's house.

Oh yeah.

And then there's another, it's, you know, like what's just, it was all just

like, oh, like this whole idea that like, oh, the, my client knew that she was

vulnerable and I was like, vulnerable, how, like, what is she vulnerable about?

Other than she like really was really interested in dating her second cousin.

Like that's ultimately what this is about to come down to, but you know, like that's

because it was like, oh, well, she felt like she had to, like, she felt, you know,

she couldn't, I don't know, she couldn't say no or whatever.

Right.

And like, she had to be with him or do all this stuff.

And so that was sort of the tenor of the state's opening, which of course, right.

Like for most jurors are like, oh, I hear it's a rape case.

Right.

They hear the state's opening.

And of course they're like, oh, well, this is, this sounds bad.

You know, rape sounds bad.

And your, your guy sounds like a bad dude, you know.

And of course we had already litigated beforehand that the jurors are going to

have to hear that my client was in custody.

Right.

Like he was in custody for a really long time.

He was a bad guy on a.

Yeah.

He's a bad guy.

Right.

So they're all like, whatever, this guy's in federal custody.

Well, he must be a real bad dude.

And so.

Like Al Capone.

Yeah.

It's like, well, that's.

Yeah.

Federal custody.

We know those are the bad guys.

Right.

Well, and of course, right.

You know, it's like, we get up and I had a co-counsel for trial.

Nick Kelly's awesome.

And he gave the opening and it's like, oh, well, like, you're going to see some

emails and like, you know, you're going to see that these people are in like a

consensual relationship.

And this is like, everything that she is saying is going to be contradicted when

we get to these emails.

And of course, the jurors are like, emails, right?

Like, what?

Tell me about these emails.

And so I think we had, you know, more some interested people by the time we even got

to open.

Yeah.

And you know who was really interested in those emails?

The Republic.

The Republic.

He's probably over there, like, salivating.

I can't wait to see what's in the emails.

That's a good point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that was, that was opening.

And then we, I think the first witness was probably the detective.

So like, you know, pretty like boring, kind of like, oh, here's my investigation.

Yeah.

He just took the statement.

Yeah.

So she puts up the detective, right?

Puts up the detective.

You know, he gets into like, oh, she ghosted me.

Right.

And that was, that was that.

And I was like, oh, well, like, she never told you why, really?

She never tell you.

Because later, she had originally said in a, when she, you know, back in 2020, when

she gave that sort of joint interview, she had said like, oh, well, I had so many

medical problems going on in 2017.

Oh, right.

She had the aneurysm.

She had the brain aneurysm.

And so she's like, well, I just like, I had all these medical issues and I had like,

you know, obviously I had contacted him and told him that, but, but she didn't because

the detective did not note that in his report.

So of course you got to be like, oh, well, obviously if she had told you, you would have

noted that in a report because you're a good officer, right?

Absolutely.

I definitely would have noted that down, right?

And you're like, yes, officer.

Thank you so much.

So yeah, he was a pretty simple witness.

The other person who testified was one of her friends from out of town, I think, because

she had lived in Linden, Washington, which is up by Canadian border, kind of up by Bellingham,

Washington, for anybody who's familiar with Washington geography.

She was living in this town called Linden, Washington, where she was sort of in a very

religious sort of church situation where she had met this lady named Grace.

Because of course her name's Grace.

She had, because of course her name's Grace.

The church friend named Grace.

Yeah, exactly.

And this is sounding like a Hallmark movie or a Lifetime movie of the week with the drama

and the perfect names.

Yes, exactly.

And Grace, she had, supposedly had told Grace, or what had, at least what the prosecutor

had led on was like, oh, well, she had told her friend Grace that she had been raped

by my client before, like, this would have been during the time my client was in federal

custody, but before she disclosed the rape allegations to the police.

That was what the prosecutor said that this lady had said.

So basically a prior consistent statement.

Yeah, exactly.

A prior consistent statement, right?

That like she had.

Before she told the, before she told the federal prosecutor.

That's right.

That's right.

Before she told the federal prosecutor that she had actually told her friend Grace.

But Grace is like, no, what she told me was that she had sex with her cousin.

That's what she told me.

And I was like, does that sound like that?

That is, like, feels like maybe that's not okay.

Wait, so this happened on the stand.

The prosecutor called Grace in to substantiate the rape allegation.

And instead, Grace spilled the tea on her friend and said, no, no, no, she's just sleeping

with her cousin.

Yeah, yeah.

So it was like, no, no, what she told me was that she had had sex with her cousin and

that she was in a relationship with her.

Did the prosecutor in this case also have an aneurysm?

Like, do they just, like, stroke out in the middle of the trial?

You know, this, yeah, this is when you're like, ooh, things are not going her way today.

So the prosecutor has now called witnesses for your defense, basically.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like, it's like, oh, like, she, yeah.

And so that was, that was Grace, a very short testimony.

Because I think once that, once that blew up, it was like, well, thank you very much,

Grace.

Please get out of here.

Oh, and then we had, of course, a parade of medical witnesses.

Because, of course, right, she was in the hospital for this brain aneurysm and had alleged that

she had been raped by my client in the hospital.

Oh, right.

And all these medical witnesses come up.

And, of course, I'm thinking, like, oh, man, they're going to tell me, like, she was

under, you know, she was sedated.

She's on all these painkillers.

You know, whatever, right?

Like, they're going to try to say that, like, she was basically out of it, right?

Because our argument is, like, consent to all of it, right?

This is all consensual sex.

But all these, like, doctors come up there and they're like, yeah, whatever, you know,

people are different.

They're like, recovery is different.

She was fine.

I mean, she was, like, you know, like, didn't have, she was capable of doing release planning.

She was able to tell us, like, who she didn't feel comfortable staying with, which was really

her mother.

She never mentioned her client, she never, like, it was, and then in all the medical

records, there was, like, not any, there would be references to, like, a man, but then the

AV would say, oh, well, that's my cousin.

I'm in love with it.

Like, that was in the medical records of, like, what she was saying.

So we're, like, we're getting all these people who are coming in and you're, like, well,

it really doesn't sound bad.

These people were also called by the prosecutor.

Also called by the prosecutor.

Because, you know, prosecutors love to complete the story.

Oh, yeah, they have to.

They're like, oh, we have, yeah, exactly.

They're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

We got to bring in all these witnesses.

Did the prosecutor call any witnesses helpful to her case?

I mean, other than the AV.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, other than the AV.

Okay.

So then it's time for the AV to testify.

Here comes Pamela.

That's right.

Here comes Pamela.

The prosecutor has primed the jury.

That's right.

They got her all ready.

Got the juries all ready.

Now they're seeing the case through the prosecutor's eyes.

That's right.

Getting credibility to her case with these other witnesses.

A detective, a cop, a police, a church lady.

She has a strong case.

So now.

Does Pam have a spoken word stage name?

I don't think so.

No.

Okay.

She doesn't.

Here she comes.

But here she comes.

She takes the stand, you know.

She's got her nice little microphone.

She gets it adjusted right there, close to her mouth.

And, you know, she started talking and, you know, they talk about all kinds of other stuff.

And then as soon as the prosecutor gets to, okay, tell us about, you know, the first time, you know, you were raped.

And she closes her eyes and she goes, deep, deep breath out.

And while her eyes are closed, she just describes everything in as much detail as she can.

And I kid you not, she had her eyes closed the entire time.

And then when we.

Like in her hypnosis or something.

Like hypnosis.

Like, I see a man.

He's coming from the right.

He's.

Yes.

He's holding me down.

But yes, actually, that is what she's doing.

She's like, you know, and like, we're in the car.

And he's to my left.

And he grabs me behind my head.

You know, she had her eyes closed the entire time.

And then she would have these other thoughts that would come into her head.

Such as like, well, I had to, you know, like, she would like suddenly open her eyes.

And she'd be like, well, I actually had to have been in May of this week because I think my kids were in school.

Like, and then she'd come back and her eyes would be closed.

And she would continue back to the, to, you know, describing the allegations.

What a performance, you know?

And I was like, Jesus Christ, right?

Like, I was like, this is going to be bananas.

You can't make this up, right?

Like, wow.

I cannot believe this is what was happening.

So you and co-counsel are fighting over who gets to cross-examine her.

Well, I guess it was always going to be me from the beginning.

I was like, no, no, no, no.

This is the, I know these emails.

And so, you know, she had testified.

She was on direct for all morning and then all, most of the afternoon as well.

And it was about 3.30.

And like, we always end our trial days at four o'clock, especially if you have a client in custody.

Because like, they got to get back to the jail, whatever.

And it was 3.30 and the judge is like, okay, well, Ms. Conner, do you want to start your cross-examination?

I was like, well, judge, that's 3.30.

Like, do we want to start it today?

Or do we want to like, wait?

You know?

And this was right before the weekend.

So I was like, why don't we just wait till the weekend?

And also, I would like to have some extra time to make sure I can clean all this stuff up and get, you know, I want to have my performance ready to go.

And the judge was like, oh, no, well, we'll just go ahead and get started.

And I was like, okay, that's cool.

Because I feel like you, I feel like for a half hour, you could just hit her with an email, a couple emails, and then close it off for the weekend, you know?

Oh, yeah.

And then organize yourself for later.

Oh, yeah.

Well, and of course, I, you know, I just like started with some softball questions, you know, sort of like, let's try to like ease her into being cross-examined.

And I was like, okay, well, oh, she's actually not that hostile, it turns out.

Where she gets hostile, though, is when I'm like, you know, I just want to confirm your testimony from today.

So you're saying you never were in a relationship with my client.

And she's like, I was never in a consensual relationship with your client.

And I was like, well, my question, though, is like, you never wanted to be in a relationship with it.

And she's like, you know, like, she's like, giving me daggers, man.

And I'm like, you know, when you were so close to a witness, and you're like, ooh, I can't wait.

Like, I want her to like, we've hit a soft spot, right?

Like, this is the soft spot.

She's like, no, I never wanted to be in a relationship.

I was like, okay, so like, it's your testimony today.

You never wanted to marry my client?

No, I never wanted to marry my client.

Why would I want to marry my cousin?

You know, and all this sort of, you know, I'm like, so you never.

To be fair.

Yeah, right.

And I was like, so it's your testimony.

You never, yeah, you never wanted to have sex with my client.

She's like, absolutely not.

No, I never had consensual sex.

I was like, okay.

Do you remember writing emails to my client when he was in federal custody?

And she's like, I don't remember writing them, but I do know that I wrote emails to him while

he was in custody.

It was like, well, let me get exhibit number 24 and we can start.

And so, of course, you know, I like read some email about like, you know, I think I started

off with a pretty softball question with like, oh, well, like, you know, when we're married,

you know, we're going to do da, da, da, da, da.

So I was like, okay.

So like in this email, you were talking about wanting to get married.

You can like see her face.

Like, well, I don't remember writing that, but like, you know, I did feel like I had to

pretend to be like in a relationship with them.

Like, oh, well, that's not the only time you talked about being in a relationship with

and that wasn't, you know, like, and so then I get to like another one.

And I think I read, um, one that said, uh, you know, it's like, I need you.

I need, need my daddy.

I need you and only you please dad, come make me all better.

Remember, remember when you made me yours in the car, in my mouth.

Oh, and that was like, right.

When like four o'clock came about.

And the judge was like, now's a good time to end.

Yeah.

He was like, you know what?

Actually, it might be a good time to take a good break.

And I was like, you know what, judge, I got a long way to go.

As you can see, I got a giant stack of emails here.

We can come back.

Oh, she called him dad too.

It's just.

Oh yeah.

She called him daddy.

Yes.

Yeah.

But I also love that she said she didn't want to be in a relationship with him, but she felt

like she had to pretend because every woman knows.

That the thing that every guy wants to hear is that she wants to get married.

That's the, that's the, you know, that was the thing that was going to make him happy

was to talk about getting me a ring and getting married.

That's the key to every guy's happiness.

Okay.

So the, you break for the weekend, you work on your case, you get ready Monday morning,

start right back up again.

Right.

That's right.

Start right back up.

And I, I think continue to cross examiner for the entire morning.

So I started at nine up until noon.

And then I came back and I had another hour after that.

Nice.

Like we're going to go.

Cause like I said, I was going through all these emails and I would just read them in

their entirety, you know?

And it's like, Oh, like, so on this day you said this, all right.

And then at some point she would say, you know, she's looking at him.

She's like, are you going to go through all of these?

And I'm like, yeah, I am going to go through all of these.

Wait, she asked you, are you going to go through all of these?

Oh yeah.

Well, and then there'd be times where she would say, well, can I like, can I like give,

you know, just sort of when I'm like moving through stuff, she'd be like, well, can I give

a bit of an explanation?

I'd be like, you know, you're going to have an opportunity to, uh, you know, with the

prosecution, come back up here.

She'll give you an opportunity to explain, but I just need you to answer my questions right

now.

And she's like, my God.

But yeah, eventually she was talking about way to wear a witness down.

That was definitely the way to do it.

It's like, we're just going to go through all of it.

And you want to tell me a thousand times that you were pretending the whole time?

Go for it, girl.

Cause that does not sound good by number 675.

Prosecutors redirect.

No questions?

Or does she redirect?

Oh, she redirects.

She redirects.

She should have just left that alone.

Gosh, she should have left it.

She should have left it alone.

You can't rehab this.

Well, and it was, it was on redirect where she's like,

Oh, well, like he actually, like, you know, let's talk about some of the things that he

told you in the emails, you know?

And it's like, I love you.

There's like, well, it's like some email that she was like, Oh, I'm going to try to get,

I'm going to admit this where it's like, my client gives her his Facebook login information

so that he, that she could post about him not having a gun in the hospital.

And it was like, well, clearly that's maybe witness tampering on his federal case, but

that case is already done.

So I don't know what you want to know.

I don't know how that relates to the love in her mouth.

Oh, well, he was, yeah.

It's like, Oh, well, he was telling you to lie, you know?

And it's like, okay.

Like, I don't understand like what that is relevant about, but I'm starting to feel sorry

for this prosecutor.

And I'm very uncomfortable with that emotion.

Oh man.

Well, it was great though, because even on redirected, AV gave us some great lines such

as like, well, I was living a double life, you know, like there was one person I had to

be with him and another person I had to be, you know, in the world.

And I was like, Oh, thank you for that actually.

Because now I get to get up and closing and say, well, she's on a double life.

How are we supposed to know what version she is today?

Right?

Like, is she like, is this the version that is like in this consensual relationship or is

this this version that she's saying now I was not in this consensual relationship.

So did the prosecutor close on a strong note right there or did she put up any other evidence?

No, that was it.

That was her last witness.

Oh, so she ended strong.

Okay, good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Strong.

This is all I got.

This is all I got, right, is the word of this person.

Yeah.

All right.

So, okay.

So motion to dismiss, right?

Yeah.

I mean, like a-

Move for directed verdict?

Yeah, I did do, I think, a halftime motion, but it was mostly just to say like, well,

judge, we've heard a lot of things that don't account to rape in the second degree.

So I don't think that the jury should have to consider that in the, like, when they're

deliberating.

Because, again, right, we're going to run the risk of a lot of allegations of non-consensual

sex equals a forcible rape, which it doesn't.

And so we were able, the judge was like, okay, Ms.

Goddard, I won't grant this halftime motion because I don't, I do think it should go to

a jury.

But what I will do is draft a jury instruction that says, jurors, you're only to consider

these three specific acts for the purposes of finding them guilty on rape in the second

degree.

Oh, that's actually, so she narrowed the scope from the prosecutor's original, you know,

summer of love, where the jury could choose their own adventure.

The judge said, now you only have these three paths.

Okay.

Yes, that's correct.

Has the, has the judge made any comments about the trial at this point, about how it's going

in or what she may think, you know, like, nope.

No, she's just up there.

Like, I think every time I'm like, I'm going to, I have more, I think she was really, um,

probably taken aback by my dramatic reading of all these emails during cross-examination.

So she's always like, how much more of this do we have to go?

And I'm like, well, judge, I just got a lot more.

I don't know.

Like, I got to get all this stuff into evidence.

I can't help it.

All right.

Time for the defense case.

All right.

Elsie, take us away.

Who do you put up?

We put on our one, our one witness, um, which is my client's mom, uh, or, uh, the, the aunt

of the AV, uh, and Kathy, uh, and so she is, um, a bit of a live wire on the stand, which,

you know, I love that when you're sort of like, Oh, let me direct one thing.

I'm actually pretty decent at is directing, uh, witnesses who never really know what they're

going to say because you're like, you know what, this is, we're just going to go with it.

We're going to roll with it.

See how it goes.

Um, but, uh, she really, really wanted to talk about, uh, an incident where the AV had

threatened her, uh, after she had gotten out of, out of the, once, after the AV had gotten

out of the hospital from her brain surgery, she like banged down by the, my witnesses door,

right?

The aunt Kathy's door and like, was like, Oh, well, like, I can't believe like Chris

had a gun and like all this sort of stuff.

And like, he's going to get what's coming for him or something like that.

Like that was the thing that she really, really, really wanted to talk about.

Um, but unfortunately that had been motioned out, the judge wouldn't let her bring that in.

Um, and so what was really funny is she's like, Oh, well, I want to, yeah.

Right.

So she's like, you know, so she's on the stand and she's like, well, I mean, the last time

I saw her was not unpleasant.

It was so scary.

And I was like, well, you know, we don't want you to talk anymore about that.

And she's like, well, why can't I talk about that?

And the prosecutor gets up, right?

I think I was like right around when I was like, I, you know, I'm done with direct.

We've got all of our information out.

We're good.

And the prosecutor gets up and she's like, well, I want to talk about like, you know,

the things that this lady did to me.

And the prosecutor's like, well, you can't talk about that.

And she's like, well, I don't understand.

Like, how come I can't talk about it?

And so like, they're just in this like barking match about whether or not she could.

I really am feeling sorry for this prosecutor.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

I was like, talk about just somebody stepping on a landmine.

That was the judge admonishing her.

Telling her you can't talk about it.

I made an order.

You can't talk about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She didn't care.

She was like, this is crazy.

What was the, what was the purpose of the mom's testimony again?

That she saw them snuggling up together and that they spent, we're spending a lot of time

together and never saw them like have any.

Yeah, exactly.

Never saw them like get any arguments.

You know, they seem like they were having like a fairly, there was no period of time where

she saw them and thought like, oh, she's looking at me like you're in the headlights.

They were under one blanket.

One blanket.

Without clothes.

Without clothes.

Right.

Okay, cool.

So then did you put up any other evidence?

You put up your client.

Oh, no, I did not.

And the reason, well, there was actually a specific reason why we didn't, or a couple reasons why

we didn't.

One, because I thought we, because we had these emails and we had such a like, oh, we have

like an, the AV versus the AV is basically what this case has boiled down to, right?

It's like, there's the AV in the emails versus the AV who's coming up here and testified,

right?

And I felt that if we added in my client's testimony, it would just become a like, well,

we're going to forget about the crazy AV.

And now it's going to be like, do we believe him versus her?

It's going to shift the focus.

Yeah.

The other very unhelpful thing is that my client talks a lot with his hands.

And unfortunately he has a tattoo on his hands and it is the word shh in cursive on his finger.

Oh, that's not what you want in a rape case.

Which is just, you know, which is like, exactly.

I was like, it is a cool tattoo, but not what you want when you're accused of it.

And so I was like, man, if I were a juror, you know, this juror sits so close to the

witness stand, you know, at least they do in our courthouse.

And it's like, oh, they're going to see that.

They're going to be like, this guy is creepy.

And so I asked him, I, you know, we were sort of talking about whether or not he could

would testify.

And I was like, well, can you talk and not use your hands?

And he said, no, I don't, I can't do that.

I was like, well, I guess you're not justifying.

I mean, and you don't, you already are winning, you know, there's no need to put them up,

you know, unless you're really, if you were feeling, um, comfortable and confident in

his abilities, but yeah, if you're, I mean, the, the way the case is going, even before

trial, I think we all, I mean, her credibility has been so tarnished that this case is really

no good.

So yeah, at this point it's like, she's like, you know, we have like really, um, we, we've

really muddied the waters in a way that is like, there's, I feel pretty confident going

in and just talking about the emails and we don't need to hear anything.

I mean, at this point, what can the prosecutor even credibly argue in closing?

Well, let's find out on the closing statements.

Tell us about the prosecutors.

Yeah.

So the prosecutor, of course, like the, the biggest thing they can close on, or the only

thing she has left to close on is okay.

Well, like she's not a perfect victim and she doesn't have a perfect memory, but you know,

like she got up here and she like testified and she'd also had been like gone through all

these interviews and she has told the same story every time she had been raped.

Right.

So they're just sort of pointing out that like, okay, like at the end of the day, her, her

testimony has been consistent that she had some sort of like, you know, sexual, non-consensual

sexual interaction with our, with my client.

Right.

So that was, I think the only thing she really had to go on was that, you know, oh, whatever.

She had some inconsistencies here and there.

And also she was, and she was like afraid for her life, you know, this whole time he was

in federal custody.

So like, you gotta believe her, you know?

And I'm just like, well, actually you don't have to believe her.

Actually objection.

Yeah.

It's like, if you believe her, then you have to find him guilty.

And it's like, no.

Tell us about your closing argument then.

Yeah.

Um, so my closing argument normally, right.

Like I write out, you know, I think I wrote it out and I printed it and I usually have it

and I have it on like a little podium and, um, I'm not very good at memorizing my closings

because I'm always like working on them up until like, you know, the minute that I'm about

to get up.

But this time I just got up, you know, and I had everything on printed down.

I was like, let me get up here.

And I grabbed all the evidence, you know, from your bankers, admitted my bankers boxes.

And it is like, look, the proof of what happened in their relationship is in these emails, right?

Like, this is like almost like a contemporaneous diary of their relationship, right?

Like this was, you can see like all the, like all their desires and plans that they had

as a relationship.

So I was like, it's all in the emails, right?

So like, read the emails, like go back in the jury room and go start as email number one

and read it all the way to the end, right?

Cause like, you'll see like, who's the real, who has all the power and control in this relationship,

right?

Like the last day they were together, right?

The, the sort of the breakup email, right?

There were 45 emails that were exchanged between the two of them.

She sent 35 of the 45 emails, right?

So like, she is the one that is like, she's the one that's emailing it.

Yeah, exactly.

She is just like going after him, right?

Like he is not the, and like his responses are in there.

So like, go read his stuff and see how he felt about the relationship.

Um, so that was, uh, pretty easy to say, yeah, easy closing the gift.

Cause I had so much material.

Nice.

Nice.

So then, um, and then how was your client toward after like the, at the end of the case or the,

you know, the closing argument, how was he at this moment?

Well, you know, it's funny because, um, so, um, my client was escorted to trial every day

by the same two jail guards for the most part.

And they of course have been like keeping his spirits up during trial because they too have

been watching the trial.

And so they're always like, I feel like my like barometer of like, have I done a good

enough job?

And so after the end, after I closed, um, my client of course is like, oh, I started crying

during your closing.

I'm sorry.

I had like, I showed emotion.

I'm not supposed to during trial, but like, I started crying because like, you're so right.

Like I didn't do this.

And then the jail guards are coming over and they're like, yeah, man, she fucking crushed

it.

Right.

Like they're just like, oh, she did such a good job.

You know?

So I was like, I really hope like this is, you know, it's like, you know, done a good

job.

Um, and so, yeah, he was like, you know, of course, right.

Like stress out as fuck.

Right.

But he is at least, uh, held it together enough to, to shed a couple of tears during closing.

Uh, and so, yeah, he was, he's doing okay.

Nice.

All right.

So tell us about jury deliberations.

Then how long was the jurors out for?

30 seconds.

Um, they were out now.

Interestingly enough, they were out for, well, so they were out for two days.

Yeah.

All those pages.

Two days.

Well, exactly.

Right.

They got all these emails to read, but they're out for two days.

They probably decided not guilty of prep, but they just wanted to read the novel.

They were just performing it like we would have in the office.

Like, you got to look at this one again.

Well, it's like, so we actually had, they delivered for two days and then there was like

some sort of inquiry from the jury about like having scheduling conflicts for deliberations

the following week.

Oh, come on.

Um, I know.

And I was like, well, what is that about?

Uh, and somehow, uh, like the, the, one of the jurors said, well, I'm going to be

out all week.

Like I have, I have work I have to do all week.

So I don't know that I can come back and deliberate.

Um, and the judge was like, okay, well, you know, I'm, we got to ask more information,

right?

Like what's going on?

And you're like, can you call your employer and kind of figure out like what the hell is

going on?

And as the juror is doing that, she makes a comment to the bailiff and says, this case

is just getting too emotional for me.

And I don't think I can be fair and impartial anymore in deliberating on this case.

And we were like, what does that even mean?

Right?

Like, what are you talking about?

She's also in a relationship with her cousin.

I don't know what.

I know, right?

I mean, it's like, did we miss something in jury selection?

And she's over here like, oh no.

But, um, so anyways, we like brought her in to question her and she's like, I cannot be

fair and impartial anymore in this case.

And like, I think she was like trying to find a way to get out of being on this jury, or

maybe she didn't realize how long she's gonna have to deliberate.

Or maybe she felt like, man, I've had to find this dude not guilty.

That feels tough, right?

Like, I was, I don't know like what her issue was.

So we ended up having to excuse her.

We brought in the alternate and our alternate was our Republican.

And so we, they brought back the Republican, uh, and they deliberated for like two hours

and they were like, yeah, we got a verdict.

That guy came in and was like, let's go.

He came in and he was like, I'm whipping those votes, you know, like he's like, I am the caucus

leader for a reason.

She's a liar.

We got the emails to prove it.

We finally got the emails.

So two hours later and they come out with their verdict, two hours later, they come up with

their verdict, you know, and, uh, my client upon hearing the words, not guilty, rolls back

in his chair and is like, thank you so much.

So your client at this point, was he still serving some federal time or was he actually free to go?

At this point, yeah, so he was free to go.

You released him.

That's right.

Nice.

That's right.

He walked out a free man, man, on June 6th, I want to say.

Well, Lord, Elsie, great job.

I know we were kind of joking around saying it was like an easy case and the prosecutor, blah, blah, blah.

But you still had to know what you're doing, do the work, do the digging, get the emails, try to get, you got a declaration from the feds.

You did all the things you needed to do, you, you set it all up nicely just so you can roll it out a nice, for a nice, not guilty there.

So great job.

Yeah.

I was glad the, the slam dunk actually, uh, happened and not like, you know, the biggest, like, well, it's embarrassing when you go for the, it's embarrassing when you go for the layup and you miss.

Right.

Yeah.

So, so before we go, I just have one last question.

It's a question I asked all our guests as all right, Elsie, you've been a public defender for seven years now.

Uh, and, uh, so tell us, tell the audience, why did you want to become a public defender?

Yeah, well, you know, it's like my, so I guess my sort of like PD origin story really sort of starts with the fact that like my dad was, um, I was in the car with my dad when he got pulled over for driving while black.

Um, and so I had a really, uh, healthy distrust of the police starting at a very young age.

Um, and then, you know, realizing that like, oh, you can just be pulled over and stopped and charged with things that have nothing to do with, you know, like you doing actually anything wrong.

And so that's, I think really where it all started.

Well, thanks for coming on the show today, Elsie and Lauren.

Always good to see you.

Thanks for being my co-host.

It was awesome.

Thanks for having me.

This was really fun.

All right, guys, until next time.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A&G theme music composer, and Mike Grimm for the remix.

And guess what?

We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.