Grindr Gone Bad

So the case starts with these two guys driving to the hospital.

One's been shot in the dick, according to him, as he's seen on body-worn camera riding around in the emergency room.

And the cousin's version of how he got shot was just wild, right?

Because he's maintaining that he's just sitting in the car the whole time, that this bullet magically goes through the car door and through the car seat,

which the medical records show that the bullet went into his buttock and then out into the penis.

So he never knew, like, what the, you know, what the trajectory was.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty.

I'm David Moore, here along with my fellow public defenders, presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't.

I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not-guilties public defenders get on a daily basis.

In an unjust criminal system.

With a deck stacked against us.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty.

All right, all right.

Welcome to another episode of Another Not Guilty.

I am Dallas Gutman.

I'm a public defender in Cincinnati, Ohio.

I'm Rachel McKay.

I'm a public defender with Dallas.

And today we are joined by two phenomenal guests out of Jacksonville, Florida.

We have Troy and Dina.

And, yeah, it's just a great not-guilty.

We're really excited to get into it.

Do you guys want to introduce yourselves a little bit?

Okay.

My name's Troy.

I work as a public defender in felony court in Jacksonville, Florida.

Been working here for about going on four years.

And just really love it.

I'm Dina.

I've been a public defender for seven years now.

Worked a little bit in Jacksonville as well as Tallahassee.

You know, it's freezing here in Cincinnati, Ohio.

And I was talking to Troy before we started about how jealous I am that it's probably nice out there.

But it sounds like it's chilly and raining, so.

Yeah.

Today's not the best day.

It's pretty stormy right now, like mid-50s.

It's an indoor day for sure.

It's a great day to record a podcast.

Yes.

Yeah.

We'll keep it going as long as we can.

It's going to be an eight-hour episode.

That's right.

It's going to be nice.

It's going to be a beach day when you guys are done with this.

No, we have brunch plans later.

We have brunch plans later.

Not anymore, Troy.

All right.

So let's get into it.

Tell us a little bit about what your client was charged with.

So Terrell was charged with two counts of attempted murder.

And in Florida, we have what's called a 10-20 life law.

So there's certain charges that if a gun is involved, then it would carry a 10-year minimum

mandatory, and that's day for day with no gain time.

If a gun is discharged, it's 20 years day for day.

And then if there's an injury, then it's 25 years day for day.

So one of the complaining witnesses was shot, and so that was a 25-year minimum mandatory, and then the other one was just a 20-year minimum mandatory.

So he was – his exposure was 25 to life.

Okay.

And those days wouldn't stack, or would they if he was convicted?

So the law just changed now for enumerated felonies that qualify as 10-20 life.

They would stack.

They'd have to be run consecutive.

At this time, the judge had the discretion to run them concurrent.

All right.

So tell us a little bit about the state's theory then.

You know, it changed during trial, I think.

Of course.

Originally, there's a, like, grinder date gone bad kind of thing.

Grinder date gone bad?

Yeah.

That sounds like the title of this episode.

That's good.

Yeah.

So the case starts with these two guys driving to the hospital.

One's been shot in the dick, according to him, as he's seen on body-worn camera writhing around in the emergency room.

There just so happened to be an officer there, so he picks up the investigation, and the guy that was shot, we'll call him cousin.

He's allegedly the cousin of the date that Terrell was meeting.

And so the story goes that these guys go to a local bar.

Date says that Terrell is flirting with his cousin, and the cousin doesn't like that.

So they decide to end the date and go take him directly from the bar to his house, where an argument starts in the vehicle, and then it turns into an altercation.

The cousin says that he tries to break up this altercation inside the vehicle.

They come to a stop outside of a park or inside of a park across from Terrell's house.

The date and Terrell get out of the car.

It's a fist fight that turns into a gunfight, and then bullets go flying, and cousin somehow gets struck, and then Terrell runs off, and then they drive to the hospital.

That's kind of it in a nutshell.

And so these people originally met that same day on a dating app, basically, Grindr.

Well, they met originally.

The date and Terrell met, I think, on Scruff, and then they moved it over to Instagram, and then they exchanged phone numbers.

So they'd been texting maybe a couple of months before they actually decided to meet up on this particular night.

This was in November of 2020, 2023.

So, yeah, it started on a dating platform, and then just kept it casual on Instagram, I guess.

But the first day that they meet up is when all this happens.

Correct.

Yeah.

Rough.

Yeah.

This feels more like a third date situation to me, but everyone has their own timeline, you know?

Because he brings their cousin on the first date, you know?

Who brings their cousin on the first date?

Hey, if I'm there, my cousin's there, so.

Okay, so on that first date is client, the person client's on a date with, and cousin.

Cousin becomes kind of, like, it's questionable whether or not client's flirting with cousin.

That's why other party gets mad.

Then they're all in the car together.

There's some sort of physical altercation.

At some point, gun goes off, hitting cousin.

Correct.

Okay.

That's basically what the state's theory is.

Okay, then they go to the hospital, and then charges are filed, basically.

Yeah, there wasn't a lot of follow-up after that.

The detectives that were assigned from the Robbery, Violent Crimes Unit went and met with the cousin,

who was transported to a different hospital, and so interviews the cousin.

Cousin gives his version of events, which is a little bit different than what the date said,

and then he goes and meets with the date, gets his version of events.

They are able to figure out where client lives based on where this altercation happened.

And so they go get him out of bed at, like, 4 o'clock in the morning, bring him down to Police Memorial Building, where they interview him.

He doesn't invoke right away.

He initially denies knowing either of these two guys, and he denies being at the bar that they were at.

And then when he's confronted with, we know that you were there, and we know that you know this person, that's when he decides to invoke.

Yeah, so not great for the defense to start off with.

I guess better than an admission, though.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah, better to, I guess, kind of deny some glaring facts than to just send it.

I don't know.

Sometimes it's all bad.

You're just like, why?

That's his job.

We're like, well, I guess it could have been worse.

So he was arrested that day?

He was arrested, yeah, that day.

So how does the case kind of progress from there?

Do you meet him right away, or how does it work in your jurisdiction?

So the case ended up getting transferred to a different division.

Jacksonville decided to start what we're calling GVOC, Gun Violent Offender Court, which kind of belies the presumption of innocence, I guess.

But it got transferred to that division.

Wait, these court names.

I have to pause every time.

Gun Violence Offender Court?

Yes.

That's like criminal of criminals crime.

Definitely guilty, scary criminal court.

Worst of the worst, lock them up court.

Proved it beyond a reasonable doubt at arraignment court.

Yeah.

So all the cases in that court carry these 20 or 25-year minimum mandatory, so it's pretty intense.

Okay, so he's in GVOC.

He had, I was the third attorney on his case, so a lot of the preliminary investigation.

The investigation had already occurred.

Why is that?

Once it got transferred from the one division to GVOC, then there was a new attorney on it.

And then that attorney ended up cycling out of the division.

And I was cycling in, so then landed in my lap.

And it was set for trial when I got it.

So the first time I met him was at a pretrial conference, and then the next court event was going to be his final pretrial.

And then that first time, he actually had a low bond for what he was charged with.

So he was out, which made it really difficult for him, right?

Because he's been out since, you know, it was two years before he went to trial.

And then when that trial date started, you know, getting closer and closer, you know, he's starting to freak out.

Yeah, the anxiety ramps up.

What was his bond?

It was 100 on the attempted murder, and then they charged him with aggravated assault for the shooting for the guy that didn't get shot.

And then, or they arrested him on that charge.

And then they also added an alternate destroying evidence charge, because they said that he hid his clothing and the gun.

And I think there was a battery, too.

So total is like $145,000, I think.

And also, I think it's important to note that he was, at the time, in the National Guard, right?

Correct.

He had no criminal record, and he actually got, I don't know if you call it, discharged, or he had to essentially give up his position during the pendency of the case.

All right, so he's out, and he's been out for about two years when the case is about to go to trial, and when he meets you, right?

Correct.

So we set up a meeting for him to come to the office, which she shows up with his mom.

And so I met with her and him for a little bit, and then kicked her out, and then I just asked him to tell me the story.

And I had done some, you know, I had reviewed the discovery at this point.

I looked at the body-worn cameras and, you know, read all the reports, and I had noticed some things that were a little bit peculiar.

In the back seat of the car, where he was supposedly sitting during this altercation, there's a marijuana pipe and some weed.

There's a bottle of lube, and there's a bullet in the back seat.

So those were things that I was kind of like, you know, what's going on here?

I mean, bottle of lube out, looks like it's going to be a party, right?

So when he's telling me his story, I could tell that he was kind of being a little cagey or hedging.

So finally I was like, yo, Terrell, like, I see the bottle of lube back there.

I see the weed.

You know, there's something else going on here, bro.

Like, I'm gay.

You're gay.

Just tell me what happened, right?

And he's like, oh my god, oh my god, okay.

Now he feels like he can open up to me.

Okay, so you were able to kind of connect with him on that level.

Because it is kind of, you don't, I mean, I don't know, for me at least, I don't necessarily tell my clients personal things about me.

I mean, sometimes I do if I think it's going to be helpful, but I don't know.

Typically it's not, I'm not, like, worried about them knowing stuff about me.

But just typically it's not helpful or relevant or they don't care, you know?

Yeah, same.

Yeah, so that is kind of nice when you're able to be like, listen, like, I get it on some level.

So, yeah.

Did it just end up, I mean, I don't know, did, you were just randomly assigned the case, right?

So it just ended up that he got you as an attorney?

Just ended up that way, yeah.

Yeah, I love when that kind of stuff happens.

Mm-hmm.

And he responded to that, like, that changed his energy, the way he talked to you?

It did.

He totally opened up to me.

He told me the whole story, how the whole night started and progressed and ended.

So, yeah, what was his version of events?

Yeah, so he tells me that the date was going to pick him up at this park that's across the street from where he lives.

And that's because he doesn't, client doesn't bring guys over to his house.

He lives with his parents at this point.

They go back to date's house.

Date wants to start pounding tequila and client's like, no.

And then they start talking.

Date tells him that he was discharged from the military for getting into a fight with somebody when he was overseas.

So, that'll become important later.

A little 404B action or something.

Mm-hmm.

Now, at some point, date starts getting a phone call from his cousin.

And cousin's like, yo, come over to my house.

It turns out he lives right around the corner.

And so, client doesn't want to go to cousin's house.

He's, you know, on a date with this guy.

But the cousin keeps calling.

And so, finally, he's just like, okay, sure, we'll go over there.

And, oh, one of the things that I'm leaving out is that was talked about is the date was, they were going to go to this particular club.

And the date was also going to meet another couple that were potentially going to take him in as a third, like a swinger-type situation.

Oh, and he told your client that?

Yeah.

Is your client like, what the hell?

This is like the worst first date I've ever been on in my life.

For sure.

We're just like running errands for you.

Like, what do you want him to pick up your laundry next?

Yeah, exactly.

So, he's like, I don't know if I'm really feeling this at this point.

So, you know, he's along for the ride.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, they make it over to cousin's house.

And there's already some drinking going on over there.

But everything's chill.

Client remembers talking with the cousin.

And they're kind of vibing.

And at this point, date's, like, starting to kind of give him the side eye.

Like, why are you vibing with my cousin type thing?

At some point, they decide that they're going to leave and go to this club.

So, the three men get in the car, date's driving, cousin's in the front seat, client's in the back seat.

They make another pit stop at a store where cousin gets a couple of malt beverages, is what client described them as.

And basically chugs them on the way to the bar, smoking weed as well.

So, they get to the club.

So, this guy's getting good and lit, right?

He's getting lit.

Yeah.

Everybody is, yeah.

Everybody is.

He's getting lit.

Yeah, when you add it all up, yeah.

It's getting blurry.

Yeah, a couple more shots of tequila had happened by this point, so.

That'll do it.

Yeah.

So, they get to the club.

And cousin gets out of the car and immediately just pukes everywhere.

Not a great start to the night.

They're not even in the club yet.

Not yet.

So, date's like, date's like, yo, you okay, man?

He's like, you know, rubbing his back and like making sure that he's okay.

And now, now date's like, you know, leave him alone.

Why are you, you know, spending so much time on him and like, you know.

Oh, so, client was consoling cousin.

Correct.

Got it.

Okay.

Yeah.

Date didn't like that.

Date got jealous.

Even though date said, hey, we're going to meet these people that I might hook up with

later.

Yeah.

For real, right?

Not you.

Yeah.

For real, yeah.

Now, one of the things that the date had told the police and which was in the report

was that at the club, um, client had like run his fingers through the date's hair, run

his fingers to the cousin's hair rather.

And the cousin was like, you know, leave me alone, get away from me.

So, according to the date, that's kind of when he decided to, um, end things.

According to client, there was no particular reason why they decided to leave the bar.

They just, it was getting late.

Contrary to what date says, it's like this whole thing happened with the cousin and his

hair getting, um, messed up, messed by the client or whatever.

Oh, so, so client says like that never happened.

Like the, the hair, the fingers through the hair, the getting uncomfortable.

Did cousin say that happened or is this just date's perspective?

Um, I think cousin, yeah, go ahead.

I'm sorry.

I was just going to say, I think it depends when you ask them, right?

Because their initial story was a little bit different than what they said in the deposition,

which was a little bit different than what they said in trial.

And according to what's in the arrest report, they proceed directly to client's house.

Now they, both, both people, both men say in their depositions, no, we didn't go directly

to client's house.

We went back to date's house.

The three men go back to date's house after the bar.

Um, so that's a little strange, right?

Like you just made cousin uncomfortable with these unwanted touching and you know, you're

going to end the evening because everything's getting weird, but then you go back to your

house instead of taking the client directly to his house.

Right.

Right.

So leaving him or whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or leaving him.

Um, so they go back to the date's house and then at some point cousin says to date,

Hey man, would you give me head?

So cousin says to date?

No, cousin says to client?

Client.

Yeah.

Okay.

Hey man, will you give me some head?

Something like my wife doesn't do that anymore.

Oh, this is according to your client.

Yes.

Okay.

So, um, client's like, uh, what?

Like you're married.

I just met your wife.

I just met your daughter.

Like, uh, where are you coming from?

And, um, date overhears this.

And so he flips out at this point.

Now they load up in the car.

Uh, date is driving.

Cousin's in the front seat.

Client's in the back seat.

And client says while they're driving.

Date is driving?

Date's driving.

And date has this tequila bottle.

Date has this tequila bottle.

Date's to take and switch from this tequila bottle on the way home.

This never ending bottle of tequila.

Yeah.

They got their money's worth.

There's, there's some argument that's happening between, um, date and cousin.

Date's upset with cousin.

Client says he's just kind of like, what the fuck?

Just get me home at this point.

So he's just in the back seat, not, you know, not engaging.

Um, so they pull up to, um, his, his house or the park rather that's across from the client's

house.

And the, uh, client's like reaches up between the two seats and he's like pointing forward

to like, Hey man, can you pull up more?

My house is up here.

He doesn't want to walk half a block or whatever it is to his house.

So he's kind of like leaning up pointing and out of nowhere date takes this tequila bottle

and knocks him upside his head.

And so client now retreats back into the back seat and he's like in a fetal position and

he describes it as the date, like turning around and just like starting to wail on him while

he's in the back seat.

At some point client, um, pulls out this gun that he has had in a fanny pack, um, that he's

had all night.

He hasn't carried it into the bar and he hasn't carried it into cousin's house, but otherwise

it's been on him.

So he pulls out this gun and he, um, swings it at, at the date who's still beating his

ass in the back seat.

So he uses it to kind of like, as a, like a pistol whip type of situation.

Pistol whipped him, caught him, caught him on his left eye.

Um, so client's right-handed swings the, swings the gun, butt of the gun, hits the cousin in

his left eye, leaves a pretty good gash.

And then at that point, client's able to get out of the car.

And so when he gets out on the passenger side of the back seat, the cousin gets out and the

cousin grabs him and puts him in a chokehold.

And he still grabs client, puts him in a chokehold.

So he's like, he can't breathe.

He's, you know, trying, he's like, he's, well, I guess he could breathe.

So he's saying, let me go, let me go, let me go.

But he felt like he was, um, about to, you know, not be able to breathe.

And so now date gets out of the car too, comes around the front of the vehicle.

And as soon as he gets to where client is being held in this chokehold, um, cousin releases

him and date just jumps on him and starts pounding on him.

Client still has the gun in his hand at this point.

And so now clients face down on the ground and dates on his back and now dates apparently

trying to grab for the gun and the gun goes off and cousin gets hit.

Um, turns out cousins hit in his right buttock.

And then the bullet travels through his, through his thigh and out the base of his penis.

And yeah, that hurts my penis.

I don't even have one.

So, um, after, after the gun goes off, um, the cousin, the date gets off because of client's

back and client just runs away, right?

He runs through the park.

He takes sort of a less direct route to his house.

He has to jump some fences and he's running the less direct way because in his mind, he's

afraid that these guys are going to like get in their car and follow him and try to run

him over or something.

Um, so then he gets home and he basically passes out like he's, he's winded, he has asthma.

And so he ends up just going to bed.

And then next thing he knows, police are knocking at the door and his parents get him up out of

bed and then he's taking a trip downtown.

So he must have had injuries then too.

He did, he did, which became, um, part of the trial where we introduced some evidence to

support that.

They doc, they documented that or you could see it on the body cam.

Could see it in the interview video.

Yeah.

So let's talk about discovery then.

So, um, by the time you met client, you had discovery, right?

Because it had been, it had gone through three lawyers.

Correct.

So we had, yeah.

What did you get in discovery?

Uh, the body worn camera, the, that was primarily useful from the initial officer speaking with

the date at the hospital.

Um, and we can get into that.

Um, and then we had the interview video.

We had like, you know, detective's reports.

Um, eventually they provided us with jail calls, which they were going to try and use to show

that, um, client wasn't injured.

He got in a fight at the jail and they wanted to make it sound as though his injuries to his

ribs, his ribs were cracked, um, happened during a fight at the jail.

What do you, what's your like worst fact in your opinion from the evidence?

I, I think it's his denial that he was ever with these guys that he, you know, he didn't

know them.

He didn't go out that day.

He just was home all day.

And, you know, this was all, why are y'all at my house?

Why am I here type thing?

Yeah.

And then it was weird that she went home and didn't do anything after that.

Like didn't call police or whatever.

Right.

I'm sure they focus on them.

Right.

I mean, um, and who did you say called the police?

Nobody, nobody called the police.

They only, the, I mean, police would have been called either way because there was a

shooting.

The hospital would have called the police, but there was an officer that happened to be

there when these two guys show up and, um, he gets taken back to be treated.

Okay.

Okay.

So there's no 911 call.

There's no body camera of anything like excited at that point.

It's like the body camera turns on in the hospital.

No, there, there was some excited utterances because the body worn camera, right.

Got turned on at the hospital.

When the officer encounters cousin dates taken immediately back.

Right.

So, um, the officer's trying to speak with a cousin, figure out like what happened, where

it happened, who did it, you know, all those kinds of things.

And the first thing that the cousin tells him is that they just left this bar called in

cahoots, which is a gay bar in the Brooklyn area of Jacksonville.

Um, and then later he's like, Oh, they left the loft.

So the cousin was so, I mean, sorry, the date was so drunk.

He couldn't even tell the police like where they were at that night.

Hmm.

Oh, yes.

I'm sure that's helpful in trial.

That was helpful.

Also, um, the date was on the phone with the cousin's wife in the emergency room, like

waiting area, um, kind of talking to her about the shooting and telling her that they'd

been in a fight and they were beating this guy's ass.

And all of that was on the, uh, officer's body line.

Were there any, um, you know, pre-trial motions or any, you know, pre-trial hearings that stand

out?

Um, well, the state filed a motion in limine to prevent us from talking about how the cousin,

the date rather had been, um, kicked out of the military for that fight.

So that was something that the court held in advance, you know, just to see if, um,

it would become relevant at some point because I guess the, yeah, the, the date had testified

in his deposition that he had not told client about his, um, situation in the military.

That's contrary to what client had told us.

Right.

Um, and then we, at one point filed a pre-trial immunity motion, a stand your ground motion

it's called in Florida.

Um, and I had a conversation.

That's different.

Sorry.

That's different than self-defense.

I know.

I think that like, we're all pretty familiar with the stand your ground motion because of,

um, that, what was it?

George Zimmerman.

Um, but can you explain that just a little bit?

Like, and just quickly how that's different than self-defense.

Do you know, you want to take a stab at it?

Yeah.

So stand your ground gives you immunity from prosecution.

So you go, the court decides, um, stand your ground motions.

And if it's granted, then you have immunity from prosecution.

Whereas self-defense is more of a trial argument.

Okay.

So stand your ground is not a defense to a crime.

It's basically like you were standing, you were in a position where you, you like, didn't

have the duty to retreat and you could use deadly force.

Is that what, I'm just guessing the law.

And then, and so I was saying like, they're saying, well, because you were in that position,

like it, there's no crime committed here.

Right.

Wait, so if that's a pretrial issue, but kind of the basics of it are not that different

from self-defense, it's just procedurally at a different point.

They have to support that with preponderance or how do they have to support that?

So it shifts the burden to the state.

If you file a legally sufficient motion that makes a prima facie claim of self-defense, it

shifts the burden to the state.

And then the state has to show by, at a standard ground hearing, the state would have to show

by clear and convincing evidence that you were not acting in self-defense.

And so that would be a decision a judge would make.

If that motion is denied, you have the opportunity to file an interlocutory appeal and then have

an appellate court rule on whether that motion should have been granted.

Assuming it was properly denied, you can still make your self-defense claim to a jury.

And they're working with a different standard at that point.

It also shifts the burden to the state there.

And then the state has to show beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not acting in self-defense.

So it's a pretty robust standard for us and hopeful for the defense.

At some point, it was decided that the judge was going to hear the stand your ground during the trial,

which really doesn't make a lot of sense because it's an immunity motion.

But that's what she was going to do.

And at the first day of trial, we were ultimately able to convince the client not to move forward on that.

Because again, since it was going to be heard during the trial anyway, it didn't, the jury would have had,

it'd be easier for a jury to return a not guilty based on self-defense than what a judge could

based on the different standards.

So he just decided to trust us and, and let it go.

So now we're getting into trial.

How is your client feeling like going into trial?

He's a nervous wreck.

Yeah.

He's a nervous wreck.

How are you guys feeling?

I thought we had good stuff to work with.

Um, and we actually also, so here in Florida, we do board certification.

So you can, um, be board certified in certain areas of the law.

And so we had, uh, another attorney who needed, uh, another felony trial to recertify for board cert.

So she was sitting with us as well.

Um, and so generally she and I were having a lot of fun.

Troy was very locked in.

Um, and he knew this case backwards and forwards.

I mean, he had read the victim's medical records.

Um, he knew just, he had 10 seems from every body warm.

So he knew what he was doing.

He had it together.

Were there any plea negotiations?

No, the state had said, you know, that she would entertain like a double digit offer if

he wanted to make one and he was not willing to sign up for 10 or more years.

So no.

Okay.

So you left it there and it's going to trial and you know for sure that it's going to be

a jury trial.

Yeah.

At this point we're heading to jury selection.

Okay.

And the defense at this point, isn't necessarily self-defense.

It's more accident mixed with self-defense.

Yeah, that's a good question.

So when I remember going to Dina's office and saying, um, so clients now saying that it

was accidentally discharged.

And so are we able to even claim self-defense when it's accidental discharge?

And then I found a case on point that said, you know, if you're acting in self-defense, then,

you know, accidental discharge.

So you would still get a self-defense instruction to the jury.

So, um, yeah.

Okay.

So you're confident that if you proffer what you need to proffer through client, you can

get the instruction.

Yes.

Okay.

There was a, there was the state raised that issue later.

And then I was like, boom, here's the case.

Yeah.

Okay.

So what kind of jurors are you looking for going into trial?

I think jurors.

So we're just kind of skeptical.

We had to voir dire on military and voir dire on the, um, the, you know, gay aspects in

the case and that kind of stuff.

Um, and how were, how are the responses from the jurors?

Good.

Um, I mean, talking specifically about, um, you know, whether or not you believe, um, gays

have the right to serve in the military.

I mean, cause you know, once you get talking, then you get all kinds of opinions.

But we didn't really have, you know, sometimes you get into jury's literature and there's

a lot of negatives and kind of, um, crazy opinions.

And then I try to Colorado as much as I can.

So you try to then bolster those crazy opinions and sound like you're agreeing with them, but

we don't really have that too much in this case.

And when you say Colorado, when you say Colorado, you mean jury deselect, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

Which our judge is not, the judge of GBOC is not a huge fan of deselections.

Why are you asking them how they feel?

Yeah.

That was a big, I think we got called the sidebar.

That's what's here.

Yeah.

What do you mean?

Why you ask them how they feel?

So what is, you know, when people think of Florida, right?

I think they typically think of, you know, conservative, um, now MAGA, which I know that's not true

for everybody, but you know, what is the general makeup of Jacksonville?

What's the general demographic there?

I do think it's a little bit more conservative.

Is it diverse?

Yes.

But I, for some reason, our jury panels aren't as much.

Okay.

What's your client's race?

He's African-American.

Okay.

So the jury, is it all white?

Yeah.

Or is it, the jury's all white, client's black.

Was your client worried about that at all?

I honestly don't think he was.

I think he was just, there's also a level.

I think we, you have no idea really what's going on.

It is interesting how our clients respond to jury selection because I've had many times where our clients are like,

oh, I really like that one.

Yeah.

You do?

Right.

You're like, wrong.

You want the police officer?

Yeah.

They just said they love police.

Like, yeah, she seems nice.

She's not.

I promise.

Did you have any interesting, like, moments or for cause challenges or peremptory strikes?

I think they did a Batson challenge on us.

Yeah.

On you?

In what context?

I don't know.

They'll even Batson challenge if you're kicking off a white lady.

Oh, really?

It's crazy.

You're like, everyone's a white lady.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So let's talk about opening.

So the state opens first, right?

Yeah.

They open.

Okay.

So tell us a little bit about the state's opening.

It was very methodical.

Well, they, basically, their argument in opening was there was this date.

The client gets angry at some point when the, you know, his date says, well, this is going

to be the only date kind of thing.

And there's a shovel and he shoots them.

It was kind of a short opening.

I thought, so there's the judge who presides over Jivok used to be a prosecutor.

And so she says a lot.

You got to handle your scandal.

And I didn't feel like they handled this.

Handle your what?

Handle your scandal.

Sandal?

Handle your scandal.

Yeah.

So if you got to start with the bad fact, right?

You got to handle them.

You got to go.

And so.

Not like sandals.

Yeah.

Handle your scandal.

Just the difference in what the witnesses I thought were going to testify to and say.

I didn't think they addressed an opening.

You didn't think that the state handled their scandal very well.

Right.

That's what you're trying to say.

Yeah.

Or their sandals.

Or their sandals.

Yeah.

So wait, I guess, so their theory is that your client got mad when date said, this is, you

know, we're not going to have a second date.

And then like started beating everyone up and shooting people.

Yeah.

So this is basically like a credibility war.

Like this is a he said, he said.

For sure.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's the state's opening.

How about your opening?

Who opened?

Darcy opened.

Oh.

Yeah.

The person who was getting their board certification hours.

Yeah.

Darcy's awesome.

Shout out to Darcy.

Yeah.

Shout out Darcy.

Let's hear about Darcy's opening.

Um, she said, you know, basically there's going to be a few things that won't be in doubt

no matter, uh, who you believe or don't believe, like everyone's drinking, whether they admit

it, that there were some arguments that it was two on one, Mr. Griffin being the one

and the smallest of them, um, that he was beaten and he was terrified and that he was defending

his own life and that Mr. Holton was shot.

Like those things will not be in dispute.

And then, you know, pay attention closely to the evidence and what the witnesses say and

inconsistencies and, you know, that sort of thing.

But she kind of bullet pointed things that like were indisputable and that also supported

our theory of defense.

Okay.

So she was saying that, you know, it's two on one.

There was drinking.

Someone got shot.

Those are facts not in dispute.

Which is a great approach because the theory of defense is kind of locked down, but not

necessarily.

It sounds like you're going to see how it goes down.

So yeah.

Anything that just highlights the confusion of the situation is a clean way to go.

Did she say your client was going to testify?

Uh, she did.

Yeah.

She said, you're going to hear from him.

And, um, at that point we knew that he was going to have to testify.

So yeah, she mentioned that.

And, um, what else?

I think that was, it was, it was kind of a, you know, maybe five, 10 minute opening.

It wasn't that long.

Um, I think that's fine.

I think you, I think you got to like prime them and get out of there so they don't get

bored.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

So then who was the state's first witness?

They put on the date.

Yeah.

So he gets up there and basically tells what he had told the initial detective.

Um, I want to say that he didn't mention going back to his house.

Um, he definitely didn't mention all the drinking that was going on.

Um, did he mention going back to his house in the deposition?

Were you able to impeach him on that?

Or did he ever say, okay.

No, he, yeah, he said that in the deposition.

Um, the cousin did as well.

And then, yeah, the, the cousin said that he was in the car the whole time date was in

his deposition said that cousin got out of the car at some point.

So, you know, we had a lot to work with as far as that goes.

Um, so his direct was just basically what he told his initial statement to police.

Pretty much.

And so then on cross, um, I started asking him about, you know, you didn't, you thought

you were in cahoots, right?

Um, you were saying that you were going to beat my client's ass.

Right.

And then he denies that.

So then we go, okay, refresh recollection, um, with the body worn camera.

And I think we did that a couple of times.

And afterwards he was just kind of compliant.

Like, oh yeah, I said that.

Yeah.

I said this.

I said that.

Um, does he, does he seem drunk on the body worn camera?

He seems plastered on the body worn camera.

Wonderful.

Great.

Which we didn't actually introduce.

Um, we probably could have got it in as an excited utterance or whatnot, but he pretty

much, um, admitted to everything that we wanted him to admit to on, on cross.

So it wasn't necessary to get into all that.

Okay.

So you, you guys just like shredded his credibility basically on cross.

Oh yeah.

And the one, I think one of my first questions to him was, um, talking about, so you all were

in the car and you were driving and you were talking about your military experience and

you, and you made a disclosure to client to, um, to Terrell about your separation from the

military, didn't you?

And then there's an objection from the state.

And so we have to go sidebar pretty much for every objection.

And the state's like, we fought a motion and limiting on this.

We, um, you know, we're, we're not supposed to talk about this.

And the judge is like, well, he hasn't answered the question yet.

And, you know, depending on how he answers, then we'll, you know, know whether it can be

brought up or not.

And so go back and say, you told him why you separated from the military, didn't you?

Yeah.

And you separated from the military because you got into a fight, didn't you?

He's like, yeah.

And so, yeah.

So within like the first two minutes, like their whole, their motion limiting was like

out the window.

Right.

Okay.

It's interesting that the judge though, handled it on the record.

Like if, like if it were flipped, I'd be pissed, but great for us.

So I think that was all with the date and then they put the cousin up next and the cousin's

version of how he got shot was just wild, right?

Because he's maintaining that he's just sitting in the car the whole time that this bullet

magically like goes through the car door and through the car seat.

And he still thinks that he was.

Okay.

So wait, he was saying that he was sitting in the car and client was outside of the car.

Stuffling with the date.

The date and the client got out of the car and while they're stuffing, he gets shot.

Wouldn't he have to have shot from like below the car?

Right.

Or got shot.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe if you're sitting in the backseat and you shoot into somebody.

But you'd still have to be like up through.

Well, other thing is date or cousin thinks that the bullet went into his penis, which the

medical records show that the bullet went into his buttock and then out through the penis.

So he never knew like what the, you know, what the trajectory was.

Oh, I guess that makes more sense than if he like, yeah, he just was lying.

Yeah.

And I had to ask cousin to, um, I, although I knew that he would deny it, I kind of wanted

to lay the foundation.

So I asked cousin, like you propositioned my client to like give you some head.

Didn't you?

Of course he denies that.

But, you know, at that point now the jury's like, oh, okay, what's, what's, this is a

preview.

Yeah.

They perked up, I'm sure.

Yeah.

It's about to get juicy.

I got really angry about it because then on redirect it, they made this big deal about

how like that was the first time that the cousin had ever learned that his cousin was a

homosexual.

Do you remember that?

Like it was this whole thing that he had no idea that our client and his cousin were

even on a date until later.

Like he didn't, you know, it was, it got to go to like a gay bar or was it a regular

or was it just like a, not a gay bar?

Yeah, it was this, it was a regular bar that they, that they went to, but you know, date

was saying that they'd left this gay bar when he first encountered police.

Um, there was another thing that, so there was a lot of medical records and buried within

the medical records was, um, that the cousin was being treated for HIV.

And so that little nugget was something that would maybe tend to support my client's contention

that date might've swung both ways, but I wasn't going to make, you know, I, I didn't know

how to bring that up.

The medical records had been admitted into evidence just by stipulation.

So I was going to, and I didn't want to, I brought, I didn't even bring it up in closing,

but I did, we can talk about that later, but like, I didn't want to ask him about the HIV

thing on the stand.

Um, it just felt kind of icky, but I knew that I was going to be able to kind of allude

to it later.

So when you say it felt iggy, did, do you mean just from an ethical or personal standpoint,

it felt, um, like foul play to, to play that angle or play that to some degree stereotype

or that it just, um, seemed like irrelevant.

Yeah.

The stereotype, like arguing that stereotype felt icky.

Um, so, and I, and I knew that it was something that was going to come out during my close since

that evidence had been admitted already.

So I just kind of left it there, but, um, yeah, I didn't, I didn't want to make an argument

like, Oh, he must be, you know, um, down low because he has HIV.

Like that's, I didn't, I didn't want to make that argument.

Um, okay.

So that was that all for cousins testimony?

I think so.

Um, okay.

Who, who, how many witnesses did they put on?

I think they probably put on like 12 witnesses and I think that almost all of them was to

establish ID.

Like they weren't even, it was all about like date was client was there.

Client was with them.

Like it was, I don't, even though we'd filed a stand your ground motion, so, you know, they

had to be on notice of some self-defense claim.

They were, they were, all their witnesses seemed to be focused on that client was with

them that night.

Do we need to go through all 12 witnesses?

No, no.

Okay.

So then who did they put on next?

Uh, so I think the initial responding officer was important.

He, he was at the like emergency room when they got there.

Um, and so they put him on and kind of that witness, we were able to establish thanks to

Troy's, uh, incredible timestamping of his body more, you know, just how intoxicated the

cousin and the date were, what the date was screaming on the cell phone about, you know,

beating up our client.

Um, that's also, I think we started with him maybe kind of what he saw in the car or didn't

see in the car.

Um, but I think it was, he was helpful to just kind of highlight how intoxicated they

were.

Okay.

So you got in the statements about them kicking client's ass through the officer?

Yeah.

Like he, he, he said like my cousin started instantly choking him.

He said, I'm about to fuck this N word up.

He was choking him and I was punching him.

And then he, the shot, the, um, the date was upset because he wasn't getting good shots.

And he's like, I want to fight this guy.

And was he like bragging to this person?

These were all things that he was saying on the phone while he was sitting in the hospital.

Yeah.

And so that's great evidence.

I think we got it in through him and then we also got it in through the officer.

So it was kind of duplicative, but.

Right.

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tell him again.

He can hear it again.

Yeah.

Tell him again.

Exactly.

Tell him again.

Um, okay.

So that was like the function of that officer's testimony for your case.

Yeah.

We also got out through him, like, um, the date while he was at the hospital, he was there

for quite a while and he was wanting to go home, but they kept making him wait for the

detectives to show up.

But during this period of time, like he's kind of walking all over the place.

At one point he tried to go back into the car that had already been taped off with police

tape.

Um, and we were getting through that officer that he was, you know, had access to the car

at one point because there was no tequila bottle found in the car.

Um, so we wanted to kind of, you know, insinuate or argue that he had gotten rid of the tequila

bar bottle either while the car was still at the hospital or, you know, somewhere along

the way.

But, uh, cause we felt like that would be something that the jury would be wondering

is, you know, where's this tequila bottle that client was battered with.

Right.

That you're about to say.

Exactly.

Um, okay.

Was there anybody else that was.

The main detective.

Okay.

Yeah.

Let's talk about it.

Yeah.

Dina eviscerated him.

All right, Dina.

Let's hear it.

Let's hear it.

It was awesome.

Let's go.

You know, just pointing out that, well, really there was no investigation, right?

They talked whatever the guy said in the emergency room and rolled with it.

You, you made a, you made a really good ending point with the, um, medical records and how

he'd never reviewed those because those contradicted what the cousin had been saying as to where

he was shot and all that kind of stuff.

I think you were, I think your last question was, well, that would have been helpful to look

at if you're trying to establish how the shooting happened.

Right.

And I think he had to agree with that.

And I do.

All right.

Good work.

You know, sometimes it works really well.

You can just keep, and they, and they'll, you can kind of see them go like, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And then sometimes they get a little argumentative.

He did not get, he was just kind of like, you know, I was like, just get me off the stand.

That's very satisfying when that happens.

It really is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

And it's like having someone on the stand is kind of, I mean, I like our job for that

reason because we kind of provide accountability through random audits.

Right.

You know, like when you're an officer filing a charge, you have no idea if you're going

to have to, at any point, testify to anything related to that.

And statistically you're not, but every once in a while you are, and you're up there just

like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's very painful for everybody but us.

Right.

Okay.

So that was, so you shredded his credibility.

Who else testified for the state?

The main people.

Yeah.

They had the FBI agent come in and they had done like, you know, location.

Oh, okay.

So you've got some sound.

So it sounds better, right?

If you're like, hmm, what's going on?

Yeah.

So all to establish that he was with these guys, right?

Yeah.

It's like, we've, we already said that he was with them in our openings.

Right.

Why are we spending all this time on that?

The FBI's like, you brought us in to establish ID?

Yeah.

I mean, they don't really adapt.

Like once they lay out their witnesses in their heads and then.

Right.

Yeah.

They might have done it all.

They're just going to do it.

Was there anyone else that moved the case along, you know, as far as you guys were concerned

or was that pretty much it?

Yeah.

That was it.

Okay.

So as far as your worst facts that you were scared of being client's denial outright that

he was ever there, the fact that client went home, the fact that like he wasn't on scene

for any of the aftermath.

Did those, did those facts come out?

I mean, the state asked their witnesses about, you know, client's appearance, you know, when

he was, um, when he was arrested and then of course his denials and the, and his interview.

Um, I mean, I think that was, that was, they definitely brought those bad facts out through

their witnesses.

All right.

And then, so then you guys put on a case.

How's client feeling at this point?

You said bundle of nerves.

I mean, we kept going through his direct like over and over and over again.

I think that on our break, right before he testified, we went through it again.

And, um, you know, he mostly was able to stay on script.

So halftime clients still extremely nervous.

It's your guy's turn.

The, your plan is put on client and that's pretty much it, right?

Put on client.

Yep.

And he, um, we go through his testimony and it's exactly as I explained before from our

first, first meeting when he told me the whole story.

Um, and we also had planned to do a demonstration for the jury, um, about how all of this went

down in the car.

Um, so we got some chairs and put them in the well.

And then I acted as though I was the date sitting in the front driver's seat, client sitting

in the back rear passenger seat.

And, um, we acted out for them exactly, you know, how this altercation occurred.

And, um, the funny part was after, um, after clients hit with the tequila bottle, right?

He gets out of the car.

And then, um, as I mentioned, the cousin gets out of the car and puts them in a chokehold.

And so I say, demonstrate for the jury, how he put you in a chokehold.

And he grabbed me and like, and I went, that's pretty good though, because it shows how like

violent it is.

The jury just started busting out laughing.

Everybody was laughing.

And I was like, okay, this is, this is gold right here.

We had also planned to act out the part where the client's on the ground and then date gets

on his back.

And I was going to be the client with the date on, on top of me.

And I was like, okay, I don't, I don't change, change the plan.

Maybe that's a bridge too far.

Yeah.

I don't feel like getting on the ground and having him like, especially after he just put

me in this chokehold.

Honestly, though, that's like, I think a lot of people listen to the show for, you know,

interesting and unique practice tips.

And I think that's like, one of them is, yeah, you can like use the well, you can act stuff

out.

You can, you don't have to just describe stuff.

Like I'm inspired by that, you know, approach.

It's very effective.

Yeah.

So creative.

And it's so humanizing.

Like here's someone charged with attempted murder and he's there with his attorney, like

attorney's completely comfortable with this man having his hands around his neck.

Yes.

And it's a joke.

Like in that moment, everyone's laughing.

So it's just so humanizing.

My worst fear in court is like passing out during like, like in front of the judge or in

front of a jury and like soiling myself.

So I don't know if like I would feel comfortable doing that because I think about that a lot.

Like waking up like, did I shit?

And I'm like, yeah, you did.

So, but good for you.

Good for you, Troy.

So it went as expected on direct then and even better than expected.

Yeah, we had to come up with the reason why he denied knowing these guys.

So I think we talked about the talk, um, you know, that all that black boys get when

they, um, are growing up from their parents and like, you don't cooperate with the police

or stuff like that.

And then I had him walk through like the, the emotions and the experience of actually being

in that interview room and how it was cold and everything's metal and the smells that

he smelled and, you know, like really trying to just like bring it to life.

Like what it was like sitting there is to explain why he would potentially, you know, not be

truthful about what had happened.

Um, okay.

Yeah.

That's, that's also, you know, great stuff to bring up the talk and the emotions and

the sensations of being interrogated.

Cause I think a lot of people think that they would act normal when faced with this, but I

I think that's not true.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

They had him in that interrogation room for hours before they even came to speak with him.

So at some point, like he's asleep and, um, you know, I think the state was trying to picture,

paint it as like, this is not how somebody would act when they've, when they've been in this

situation, especially if it's self-defense, like everybody would act a certain way.

And we were just really trying to, you know, explain to a jury, like not everybody's going

to act the same way.

Not everybody's going to, you know, just be totally forthcoming with what happened.

And so that was that basically like your direct then?

Yeah, that was my direct.

And then, yeah, let's talk about the cross.

Were you nervous?

Were you nervous about the cross?

Oh God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was totally nervous.

I thought, yeah.

Um, they didn't really land a lot of punches.

I don't think on the cross.

Um, it was one of those in credit crosses where it's just like, oh, you did this.

Oh, you did that.

And credit cross.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Like, why would you lie?

Who lies?

Like stuff like that?

Yeah.

I was like, and you want this jury to believe this?

And it's like, yeah, I do.

Because that's what happened.

Right?

Like he, he held up pretty good.

Okay.

And yeah, every, every punch they could have landed, you guys already had addressed pretty

much.

Like you knew it was going out.

And yeah.

There was, there was one thing that we were not going to talk about in the direct where he,

when he was running through the park, jumping fences, he dropped the gun.

And so we, we were just going to like ignore the gun altogether.

And he, and that was our plan.

And he mentioned that he dropped the gun when he was running through the park.

And I didn't like the jury.

Yeah.

I didn't like that because we're wanting the jury to think that he's a responsible gun

owner and acting in a reasonable manner, but he drops the gun and then he never tells police

that, Hey, I dropped a gun in the middle of a park where kids play and stuff like that.

So we were just going to, you know, they don't bring it up.

We're not going to bring it up.

Well, he brought it up and said he dropped the gun, but they never went back and asked him

about that.

So I thought they kind of dropped the ball there.

Right.

They could have.

Yeah.

They could have gone.

Dropped the gun.

Yeah.

They dropped the gun.

They dropped the gun.

They weren't handling the scandal.

They were not handling the scandal.

You beat me to it.

Scandal and handled.

Okay.

So then you leave the cross feeling pretty good then.

Yeah.

Felt pretty good.

So client had testified, you know, that he, he went to the hospital or he went to go get

medical care after, after he got out of jail.

And so the state opened a rebuttal.

We, we closed, we rested after our client.

But yeah, the state brought in a rebuttal witness, the custodian of records for the jail

because they wanted to introduce jail calls where, um, he was talking with somebody and

he was saying, um, like, yeah, my ribs are real fucked up.

And then I, then I done gotten to a fight, um, like the first day I was there and they

were trying to make it sound like he was saying that he got his ribs fucked up in this fight.

Like he wasn't at the jail, like he wasn't injured, but it was like totally not the way

he said it on the phone.

So yeah, it doesn't sound like that at all.

No, they were just trying to make it sound the way they wanted it to sound, not what

he had actually said.

So they opened the case up to do that.

And then, and also, um, he wanted to put in the interrogation video.

Yeah.

So that's right.

They brought in the interrogation video.

They had taken out the part where he, um, invoked and then they picked up like after that.

And mostly it's just him sitting there.

And like Dina said, they're trying to show that he wasn't injured.

He's moving around, blah, blah, blah.

And at one point, I don't know why he did this, but at one point, like he flips a chair

over and it's got chrome legs.

So he's like looking in, like looking at his reflection and the chrome, um, chair leg.

And he's like constantly picking out his chin hairs.

And I thought they were going to bring that up to like show that he's trying to like change

his identity or something.

I don't know.

Like he was steady, like pulling out his chin hairs.

Um, and then for no reason other than just to be a snot, they play this part of the video

where he lets out this long, long ass fart.

And it was just like, yeah.

Just to embarrass him.

Yeah.

Just to embarrass him.

He was so fucking mortified.

Nature called.

Come on.

Stay.

Cause you think you're alone, but surveillance doesn't rest.

Yo, that is so bad for the state.

It's like, you are relying on a fart to prove an attempted murder.

Right.

Like your case, your case is ass.

That's funny.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was, it's totally unnecessary.

I don't think jurors like that.

I mean, like, no, they're just like regular people, right?

Like they don't want to hear that.

They don't want to see that.

It was cringe.

So then they closed.

Did you, did you like cross on any of that?

I don't know.

I don't think so.

We just, um, argued, you know, in closing that his statements on the, on the jail call

weren't what they were trying to make them out to be.

Well, let's talk about close.

So do the, does the state close first?

Yeah.

State closes first.

Okay.

So what's their initial close like?

I was underwhelmed with it.

Yeah.

You know, the first close is always the PowerPoint and, uh, these are the technical stuff.

Yeah.

This is like not a lesser you heard from this person.

Like it, the first close is always a little bit more formal.

I don't think they made any strong points to contradict the self-defense claim in the

first close.

Okay.

On, unmoved by the state's closing.

The first one.

Unmoved.

Unmoved.

Unmoved.

And then Troy, you closed, right?

I closed.

Um, I actually did a PowerPoint.

Um, and, um, I just, I just started out by saying, you know, client got up here.

He told you his truth.

He told you what happened.

Um, date.

He has no fucking idea what happened.

And he thinks that he left this gay bar and then started going through like with, with

his testimony, the date's testimony about, you know, how this contradicts what the cousin

said, how, um, how basically just hammering on how intoxicated he was.

Um, and then moved on to cousin.

So I kind of did it chronologically, which I know is not always the best way to do it.

But, um, I felt like in this case, it made sense to kind of take it chronologically.

Um, so it's kind of telling the story from client's perspective and then date's perspective

and then cousin's perspective.

Um, during when I was talking about cousin, that's when I brought in the medical records

and I never argued that he, that his, um, HIV status, you know, was indicative that he

was, um, bisexual or anything like that.

I just didn't feel comfortable with that.

But within the records I had, um, taken a page and put it on the, on the slide.

And it was actually, um, a slide from anesthesiologist notes where it talked about, um, how the patient

was, um, acute ETOH intoxication.

And then broke that down.

Like he, he had alcohol poisoning from that same night.

Yeah.

From that night.

So he had alcohol poisoning and that he was arousable and following commands, but he was

non-consentable and then broke that down for the jury.

Like this guy is so drunk.

He can't even provide consent for surgery.

Right.

So like, we can't believe his version of what happened.

Um, and then on that.

I hear the state attorneys go, ah, when they realize that it's actually right.

Cause you know, you get medical records and it's hundreds of pages.

Yeah.

PowerPoint.

He's like, you'll have it.

Go back and read it right here.

Where it says he was wasted.

Yeah.

And on that same page is where it said history of HIV and then talked about the medications

he was on.

So I didn't bring it up, but it was just on the PowerPoint, just like right there for them

to see, and I left it there for quite a while and told him, invited them to go review that

page and then made some comment.

Like, you know, I think, I think Cousins got a little secret he's trying to keep from

us.

Um, so that's kind of the way I handled that.

Um, and then pulled up the page where it's talked about the trajectory of the bullet going

into the buttocks and out through the penis.

And so how that obviously, um, you know, Cousins version of events could not, could not

be true at all.

Um, and then hit on how there was a bullet in the back seat.

So that bullet had to have come out when client pulled out the gun, they were both saying

they never saw a gun until he got out of the car and this fight happened.

He pulls out the gun and that bullet being in the back seat was like physical evidence

that corroborated the client's story that he pulled the gun out and used it in self-defense

to, you know, hit the date.

Um, talked about how the injury to the client to the date's eye was like a, a line, you know,

it looked like a butt of a gun.

It didn't look like somebody getting punched.

Um, so, you know, just invited them to like, you know, use their common sense as the state

likes to always say that this, um, you know, this couldn't have gone down as either one

of these two witnesses testified to.

And so when you take everybody's story and you look at the physical evidence, it corroborates

that, um, that our client was telling the truth and that he was being attacked and, um, that,

you know, this was self-defense.

Perfect.

And then let's talk about the state's rebuttal.

And then I want to talk about how you felt about your clothes.

So she, um, I enjoyed the second clothes because I thought it was absolutely ridiculous.

She got up and started, um, yelling, right.

That, and she just starts about how now the shooting was because client had been on the

stage and he saw where this guy lives.

And our client was living at home with his parents and saying he was jealous of the apartment.

And then he was jealous because of the date had a car.

It just spiraled.

Like she lost it at some point.

It really spiraled him to the neck.

Okay.

So nothing great in the rebuttal.

Troy, how did you feel about your clothes?

Uh, God, I wasn't, after it was done, I sat down and I realized that I'd never even argued

the lessers.

Um, so there, you know, it could have been aggravated battery.

And I had a full PowerPoint slide on it.

Um, so it's kind of hard to explain those differences to a jury about like what elements,

you know, are missing from, um, the lessers.

And I, for some reason, just completely blanked on it.

And then when I sat down, I was like, Oh fuck.

Like I didn't argue the lessers.

And, um, so after the jury went to retire, we, we went to the attorney, the lounge and

I was just like, Oh my God.

Oh my God.

Like, this seems like malpractice that I didn't even argue that.

And then Darcy is so sweet.

She's like, no, you know, in this kind of case, I don't know that you even really want

to argue lessers.

Cause we're like saying, you know, that this was self-defense.

So why then give them the opportunity to like, you know, find them guilty of something lesser

if they're, so it, it ended up working out, but yeah.

But I do agree with Darcy that like, although it's scary, I think in a case like this, you're

saying that it's a justified crime.

So it has to be not guilty.

Um, so after a close, you know, you're kind of bummed.

How's your client doing?

Um, I don't really know how he was doing.

I know when he came back after we, um, got the bell and there was a verdict, um, he came

back and he was just like, if he could look white, like a ghost, he'd look the way as

white as a ghost.

I mean, I can't, that, that moment is nerve wracking for us.

I can't imagine how it is for the clients.

I can't imagine.

How long were they out?

They were out for three, almost four hours, I think.

And as time was going by, I was thinking, oh, this is bad because to me, this is pretty

clear that it was self-defense.

And if they don't see it that quickly, then, you know, they're trying to figure out what

charge to put on them instead of not guilty.

Um, now Darcy again, it's like, no, I think this is good.

I think this is good.

The longer they're out, you know, it's probably better for us.

So who knows?

It's hard to read those tea leaves.

It's impossible.

Actually.

Okay.

So you get the bell, get the bell, get the bell.

Um, and so then what, like, does your heart immediately drop?

What's going on with you when you get the bell?

Yeah.

I'm trying to be cool, you know, walking in, you know, trying to, trying to look like we

got this for the client.

And, um, I remember the court reporter looks over at me and she said, how many not guilties

have you gotten?

And I was like, well, not very many, you know, maybe two or three.

And she's like, well, you're about to get another.

And I was like, oh, okay.

What, did she know or she just said that?

Cause she, she just, she just knew, she knew from the way that everything had come out that

this was a defense verdict, I guess.

Okay.

That's cool.

So she's trying to boost your confidence a little bit.

So you're there with the client, the jury walks in.

Are you trying to see like, if they're looking at you or look at their faces?

Okay.

What did they look like?

They weren't looking at us.

Oh no.

Almost like down.

Um, and I don't ever know if that's true or not right, but you're always like, wait,

if they're, are they looking at us?

But I think they were just trying to avoid the state attorneys.

That's right.

Yeah.

I think they're also trying to be professional.

You know, they don't want to be like, yeah, there was no winking or anything like that.

Okay.

No.

Yeah.

So then tell us the process of reading the verdict.

I know it's different in every jurisdiction.

So tell us kind of, walk us through the moment.

Yeah.

So the judge says, I understand you reached a verdict.

The four person passes the verdict forms up to the judge.

She reviews them just to make sure that they haven't missed anything and that, you know,

there's no exceptions or whatever.

Um, then they hand it to the clerk to publish.

And when she said, not guilty, I just looked over at client and he started bawling.

And then I started, I was trying to choke back tears and then got the second not guilty.

And it was just like, oh my God.

Which charge did they read first?

The attempted murder?

Um, the attempted murder with the 25 year midman was first, I believe.

So you kept getting the not guilty.

Walk us through all of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, not guilty.

And then count to not guilty.

And he's done.

He's able to walk out.

Celebrating.

He was tugging.

Yeah.

We were like, oh, I think Darcy said, uh, we need to take this outside.

Because the judge was looking displeased with the, uh, with the jubilations.

At that point, who cares?

I mean.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, take 30 days contempt.

It's fine.

Right.

Credits.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

I cannot even imagine the relief that he felt.

Oh, yeah.

No.

And you guys.

Me too.

I was like, I was just, I've never had that much pressure on me in my entire life.

I just, I felt like I was floating after that.

I bet.

It's, it's an unimaginable, well, we can imagine it cause we do it, but just that quantity

of pressure and an outcome happens like that quickly, you know, it all comes down to that

moment where there's someone just reading a piece of paper and there's plenty of things

about our job that are not like the movies, but that absolutely is like, it is that dramatic.

It is that stressful and it's real.

Like, are you kidding me?

So after that, we went out into the, um, to get some photographs and, um, his boyfriend

was there.

His boyfriend was just, uh, was just could not stop crying.

I bet.

And then, and then what clients say at the end to you, do you know?

Oh, about how he wasn't going to get on dating apps?

Yeah.

Like, okay, well, boyfriend's standing right here, so I'm going to get a good idea.

For a while.

I'm going to give it a short break.

Okay.

So have you kept up with client and do you know how he's doing now?

Yeah, he's doing well.

Um, I talked to him last week to, um, tell him about the show and make sure he's cool with

everything being, being shared.

Yeah.

He's doing well.

He's working.

Um, and he says he's doing good.

So he stayed out of trouble.

What a harrowing blip in someone's life, you know, to like have no,

criminal record, go on a date, have this like horrible trial where you beat the charges

and then just move on with your life and, you know, live normally again.

Like what a crazy experience to have.

Like I can't.

That is so well said.

A harrowing blip.

Yeah.

Like remember that time that I was charged with attempted murder and I got acquitted.

That's crazy.

Anyway.

Want to go to Inca Hoots?

Right.

All right.

Well, yeah.

Well done.

Well done.

I learned.

I learned a lot.

I think next time I'm going to try to do some type of, you know, live reenactment or something

in one of my trials.

Yeah.

Reenact the full attempted murder.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

So this is the part of our show where we ask our guests what we call the ultimate question.

Why did you want to become a public defender?

Troy, we'll start with you.

So after law school, I didn't really know what I wanted to do.

I thought I was going to work and do like civil rights work and I couldn't find anybody to

hire me to do that.

So I started my own firm and did that for about 10 years.

And then Adam and I got married and he was working at the PD's office and I would hear

about how much fun it was and the camaraderie.

And I just kind of felt like I wasn't really, you know, doing anything to help people.

I was fighting over property and time sharing and kids and stuff like that.

And then COVID hit.

And then I just felt like I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing.

So I just wanted to use my privilege for helping people.

And so that's what I get to do and stick it to the man or at least try to.

Stick it to the man.

It's definitely a calling for sure.

Yeah.

When you find it, it's very satisfying.

Absolutely.

Dina?

I went to law school with a lot of the, or several people who became public defenders

in Jacksonville.

And they seemed to be having a lot more fun than I was at work.

And I liked being in courtrooms.

And it was really the idea of trial for me.

Why I came over and I just very quickly realized that the criminal justice system will absolutely

run you over if you don't have somebody who's willing to stand beside you and make sure that

it doesn't.

And that's why I'm still here.

So, yeah.

That's right.

Well said.

Well said.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And public defenders are fun.

That's a common theme.

Yeah, it's fun.

Someone was doing something like some other type of law and they kind of like look over

into like that office building and they're like having a party every day.

It's like, it's hard and it's gritty and I like that about it.

And I could not imagine doing anything else.

Well, great job, guys.

You, yeah, you crushed it.

And yeah, just an honor to talk to two more PDs, three, including Darcy, who's not here,

but who, yeah, just laid it all out to protect a client in another neck of the woods in another

state in our country.

So just, just great job and all the best to you.

And when you get another NG, let us know.

Yeah.

Thank you for sharing.

It was great talking to you.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A&G theme music composer and Mike Grimm for the remix.

And guess what?

We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.

We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.