G-Queen's Gambit – When Snitches, Gangs, and the Feds Collide

What's up, my A&Gers? Get ready. Buckle up. We got a doozy of an episode for you today.

The kind of stuff made for TV, because that's the type of content we put out here at Another Not

Guilty. This is an episode which is much lengthier than most episodes, but that's just because the

content is so good that Brody Saber, the public defender who edited this episode, couldn't edit

out any unnecessary content. It was just that good. The story is so compelling, and I am so

thankful to be part of a community of awesome defenders and defense attorneys who share their

story on this podcast. So big thanks to Brody Saber for the edits. Big thanks to all of you for the

downloads and subscribing to the podcast. And thank you for those who left us a positive review wherever

you get your podcasts. And heads up, we'll be hitting the 100th episode in the next few months.

And I think that's it for now, so enjoy. So my first question is, who is, and I named her boyfriend,

in prison? I use this gang nickname. And the second I said that, everything changed. Her voice changed,

and all of a sudden, she was like, I ain't fucking doing this. Hung up, never answer one of our calls

again. So I left that going, okay, I can get her. She can put on a good facade, but she's hiding

something, right? And that's all I need the jury to think, that she's hiding something. And I also,

like, my goal too, in that conversation was to really let her know that I know everything.

You just need to know that when you see me in court, I know everything.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore, here along with my fellow public defenders,

presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the

American criminal system. These stories are about the not-guilty as public defenders get

on a daily basis. In an unjust criminal system. With the deck stacked against us.

And we're back. Welcome back, everybody, to Another Not Guilty. It's your boy here, Davey D. here,

bringing you the freshest not-guilties across these United States. That's right, America. We're

telling you the real stories of injustice or justice, whatever you want to call it, one not-guilty

at a time. I am, of course, David Moore, your host. And here today, co-hosting alongside me,

is the lovely Lauren. Lauren, how are you doing today?

Hey, guys. Doing great on this rainy Southern California day?

Yeah. Yeah, it's chaos outside right now.

It's crazy out here. People across the country might not really get what it's like when it

rains this hard in Southern California, but it's nuts.

The water is so wet here in Southern California.

It's very wet.

It gets so wet. I took my daughter to school this morning, and she got so pissed that she

got wet. I'm like, dude, if you just get in the car and sit down, the water wouldn't get

in it. But no, you have to play, and you have to hold up your stuffed animal, and you can't

just sit in the chair, and I'm outside the car with an umbrella. Come on, I'm getting wet.

Yeah, I had much of the same conversation, so you're not alone.

I felt so lame, because then when I walked into the school to drop my daughter off, the

teacher was right there, and she asked me how I was doing, and I went, ugh. I just stuck

out my tongue. And I just felt like it's so cliche of me, of someone to do, right, when

it rains. I don't want to give in to the hysteria of rain. I know we get made fun of in Southern

California when it rains, but I gave in to the moment. I couldn't help it.

I mean, when I first moved here, I didn't really get all the hype, but really, everything

floods. Like, it rains for an hour, and the streets were flooded today.

So, it was crazy. Hysteria is warranted when you're worried your car is going to be taken

away, just trying to get your kid to school.

Of course, I don't know if our today's guest can relate. He lives in an area where it rains

all the time. We have a public defender, guys, today, all the way from the great state of

Louisiana. We have Dustin Taubalt with us today. Dustin, how you doing?

Hey, guys. I'm doing good. Glad to be here.

Dustin, you are a public defender. What agency do you public defender for?

Yeah, so I'm an assistant federal public defender here in South Louisiana. I heard you guys talking

about the rain and deluge over there. Well, when it rains a lot here in South Louisiana,

the animals come out of the bayous onto the roads. So, at least you don't have to deal with

that. No. You're talking about, like, alligators?

Oh, yeah. Alligators, snakes, fish. No, thank you.

That's kind of a part of life down here in the swamps and bayous. But, yeah, I'm an assistant

federal public defender here in the middle and western district of Louisiana. I've been here

for 14 years now. Ever since I graduated law school, this is the only job I've ever had.

But where are you originally from? Because I hear your accent.

So, I spent, I was born in Louisiana, but I actually grew up in South Alabama. And then

when I was old enough to legally leave that state, I did. And I came back to Louisiana.

So, I don't have the down-to-ba-ya accent from, you know, South Louisiana. But, I have, like,

a little mix of a Louisiana and, like, southern Alabama accent.

All right. Well, this is going to be fun. A little story with a twang.

Well, welcome to the show, Dustin. I'm excited to have you on it. Dustin is a public defender

who reached out to the podcast because he achieved a not guilty in trial recently. He wanted to share

it with the folks of Another Not Guilty and Another Not Guilty Universe out there.

So, Dustin, thanks for reaching out. And, Dustin, please tell us about this jury trial.

What was your client charged with?

Sure. So, my client was charged with three things in federal court. He was charged with carjacking.

He was charged with discharging a firearm in connection with the carjacking. And then he was

also charged with being a felon in possession of a firearm. And so, those are the federal charges

that carried probably about a 30-year sentence if he was convicted of everything. Probably

20 on the kidnapping and 10 consecutive on the firearm discharge offense. We call that a 924C.

Wait. You just said kidnapping.

Oh, I'm sorry. Carjacking.

Is that a...

Okay.

That was a slip on my part. Yeah. It's carjacking.

It was not also a kidnapping.

There was not. Those charges were threatened but not brought. But, yeah, he was officially charged

with carjacking and the two gun charges. And in state court, he faced attempted murder charges,

kidnapping charges, and various other charges related from the exact same offense.

That's right. Because since you're a federal public defender, he was federally charged for

carjacking for a felon in possession of a firearm. And what was the other firearm charge?

And discharging a firearm in connection with a crime of violence, which would be the carjacking.

Okay.

Why are they separated like that? Why aren't all the charges together?

Yeah. I don't know why they do that. So, they just charge him with three different counts.

The 924C, the discharge of a firearm in connection with a crime of violence, that's a really common

federal, like, hammer charge because it's a consecutive charge that carries 10 years on top

of any other offense. So, generally, that's a charge they bring if they mean business in

federal court.

Right. I meant, why does he have attempted murder for the same events in the state court

and the carjacking in the federal court?

Oh, I understand. Oh, yeah. So, as the facts of the case show, you know, he's alleged to have shot

somebody. And so, in state court, they charge him with everything under the sun. They charge him

with attempted murder of the victim. They charge him with carjacking. They charge him with theft of a

motor vehicle, aggravated battery for shooting the gun. They just charge him with everything under the

sun. And then, months later, when the federal prosecutor comes in and decides on the federal

charges, he just kind of picked a few that had a federal nexus to it to bring the three charges in

federal court. So, he was facing both charges at the same time, both in state court and federal court.

Let's, okay, let's get into the prosecution facts of the case so we can better understand the charges

and why he was charged with certain things. So, what is the prosecution? What is the AUSA? Is it

the DOJ? Or what's the prosecuting agency for the feds?

Yeah. So, it's the U.S. Attorney's Office. And it is an assistant United States attorney,

AUSA. That's who charged it. And so, these are the prosecution's facts, right? So,

they allege that my client, whose name is Gary, that he came from Natchez, Mississippi,

which is about an hour and a half north of Baton Rouge, which is where this case takes place.

And they say that he came down from Natchez with his girlfriend to Baton Rouge. They got a hotel.

And then, at some point, he starts acting crazy and demands the girlfriend drive him back to Natchez.

And on the way back, when they're on the Mississippi River Bridge on Interstate 10 in Baton Rouge,

he grabs one of her firearms from her purse and proceeds to hit her and then shoot her through the chest

while they're driving. And that she slows the car down, jumps out of the car, and that he then steals the car,

carjacks it, in their words, and then takes the car and tries to flee back to Mississippi.

When he's about halfway home, he stops at a gas station in Woodville, Mississippi,

and enters the gas station carrying two firearms, because the victim actually had two guns in her car

that were hers, and her cell phone. And he's threatening and saying that he killed someone in Baton Rouge

and that he wants the police. And when the police show up to the gas station, there's a confrontation,

and they shoot Gary. The police do. And so, that's the government's version of the facts, when they bring the charges.

Okay, I already have a lot of questions.

Wow, I'm trying to pick a place to start here with this.

So, they're saying that Gary shot the girlfriend while she was driving the car over a bridge.

He didn't have her pull over or anything. He was just, this is as far as I'm going with you.

Yeah, he just freaks out, grabs her, one of her two guns from her purse,

and then shoots her while she's driving the car over the bridge.

That's what they say happened.

And then he, what, pushes out her body and keeps going?

They say she stopped and jumped out of the car to save her own life,

and then that he then takes control of the car and flees in her car.

They don't provide any motive or explanation as to why he did that,

just that he freaked out, shot her, stole her car, carjacked her car, and took off.

You know, I haven't had this specific fact pattern, but I have had this specific fact pattern.

Like, to me, a red flag for a defense attorney is like,

he just freaked out all of a sudden, for no reason, just freaked out,

and grabbed a gun and shot me, for no reason.

You know, like, just, okay, I've seen that one before.

Okay, okay, someone's lying here.

Well, I mean, she's driving over a bridge.

You'd think he would tell her, he'd hold the gun up and at least tell her to pull over.

Okay, so, but my second question, you're saying that he went to a convenience store

and Gary himself asked for someone to call the police?

Yes, yes, he, this is on surveillance video.

He exits the car, the victim's car, and he's screaming to call the police while he's waving the guns around

and saying that he killed someone in Baton Rouge, that that's her car, these are her guns,

and that he's, and that his life's in jeopardy.

That's what he's, that's what he's screaming in the gas station.

Are they saying that he is, at this point, under the influence of any substances?

That's what I presumed, right, initially, that they're going to say that whatever,

he was under the influence of something.

As defense lawyers, we always know that that often is an explanation for what's going on.

But they don't, there's none of that in Discovery or anything.

There's none of that in their version of the story.

They say he just decided he wanted her car and shot her to get it, and it's open and shut in their mind.

Okay, so he asked for the police to come, and the police show up, and then I'm assuming there was more to the prosecution's story at that point,

or there was more in the police reports once the police get there.

Right, well, he was shot by the police, and so he is unconscious.

So he never gives a statement that day.

And, you know, the Mississippi State Police takes over the case because there's an officer-involved shooting.

So we actually have pretty decent documentation of the evidence in the gas station, unlike, we'll learn, for the rest of the case in Baton Rouge.

But this was a high-profile case.

How does he get shot?

Okay, so...

What did he do?

Okay, so when he...

He was waving those guns around?

Yeah, so when he...

This is a pretty sad scenario.

So he's waving the guns around, asking for the police to be called.

He's very...

He's not making a lot of sense.

It's a pretty terrifying video to watch, and that becomes important in some of the motion practice.

But eventually, when the cop shows up, Gary actually goes to the front of the gas station and puts both of the guns on the mat,

and walks back into the gas station as, like, a gun...

Here, cop, here's the guns.

So the cop is by himself, and it's the middle of the night.

This is rural Mississippi.

And so the cop is not real sure what to do.

He asks a bystander to take the guns.

Big no-no.

Okay?

And then when the cop enters the gas station, he's ordering Gary to get on his hands and knees, and Gary does.

But then the cop is unsure what to do.

And to be fair, I think the cop doesn't know if there's someone else in the store, too.

So he doesn't want to handcuff or engage Gary.

He's really, like, looking around.

And in that moment, Gary thinks that he's going to be killed.

So he stands up and runs further into the store and is shot in the back multiple times by the police officer.

Well, that's what they do when they don't know what to do.

Shoot first, ask questions later.

When in doubt.

Yeah.

When in doubt, shoot a now unarmed man in the back.

And so this happens in Mississippi.

So he drives about an hour.

He said it was an hour and a half from, or it was like Menches, Mississippi, or Munches, Mississippi.

Yeah, Natches.

Matches, Mississippi.

Natches.

Natches with an N.

Natches.

Natches.

Yeah.

Natches.

This sounds made up.

Y'all never heard of Natches, Mississippi?

Natches is a famous Mississippi town on the Mississippi River.

What's that one song?

Oh, what's that one song?

Sing that one.

What's that?

No, there is no song.

Okay, sorry.

It's not in the song.

I ain't never heard of it.

Okay, so he drives across Mississippi, and then that's when the gas station incident happened.

Yeah, there's about an hour and a half between the shooting and when he shows up at the gas station in Mississippi.

Does the police report outline the relationship between Gary and the woman he shot?

So it kind of does, okay?

So she gives two statements, right?

So remember, she jumps out of the car on the interstate, on the Mississippi River Bridge,

and a period of time, like 20 or 30 minutes goes by until a passerby sees her on the side of the road and calls 911,

and the police arrive.

And when they arrive, they're doing, you know, she survived.

So does Gary.

They both survived the shootings.

And so when she, when they're giving her, you know, life-saving treatment, she makes some statements that are untrue.

She says she picked up a hitchhiker, and we know that they were a couple.

They drove down to Baton Rouge together.

And she says that she picked up a hitchhiker and that she didn't know who it was, okay?

And so that's all in the reports, and there's body cameras that shows that.

When she gets to the ER, she tells the ER doctor the same thing, that she had picked up a hitchhiker.

The hitchhiker took her gun and shot her, and she jumped out.

And now by the time that the police go to interview her, it's like 7 in the morning, so it's about 7 hours later.

The shooting's around midnight.

They now know that Gary has been shot in Mississippi, and they've identified all this, and they know that they came together

and that they're both from Natchez.

So they confront her in the hotel, I mean, in the emergency room and say, hey, it's okay, but we know that y'all know each other.

We know that you're both from Natchez.

And then she says, yeah, he's my boyfriend.

He came with me.

He freaked out.

I don't know what he freaked out about.

He demanded to come home, and then he just grabbed my gun and shot me.

That's like the extent of her second version, I guess, of the events that she gives in the hospital room.

Do they have a history of DV?

They do not.

So is that the extent of the prosecution's case then, right?

So the carjacking, he shoots her and takes the car.

But, I mean, we all can see it as an attempted murder, but the state court did the attempted murder.

This is a federal case.

Does the fact that he drove across state lines also contribute to the federal jurisdiction here?

It can't.

I don't practice in federal.

Yeah, it can.

So there is no, like, attempted murder in federal court, so unless you murder a federal employee or something.

So basically, they picked the most serious charges that would fit.

So they fit carjacking, right?

So any carjacking, even if it doesn't cross state lines, is a federal charge because cars travel on the highways, and, you know, there's this made-up federal nexus now for a lot of things.

But, yeah, the fact that it crossed state lines could have affected, they could have charged him with additional things in Mississippi, but they didn't.

Is there no way, is there no, is there no federal murder either then?

I mean, there's no attempted murder in federal court.

Is there no murder?

Yep.

The only federal murder either has to occur on a federal property, like a federal prison or federal lands, or has to involve some sort of federal agent as the victim.

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time with understanding that you had his case in federal court for carjacking, but in state court, he was also facing the carjacking charge.

That is correct.

And he could legally be convicted in both cases.

Yeah, so this is one of the wild things about the federal system, is that double jeopardy does not apply when the state and the federal government charge someone with the exact same crime.

In fact, it happens with some regularity where the state court, you know, someone gets a really good deal in state court, and it makes the investigators mad, and they get an AUSA to take the case, and they come in and charge the person with the exact same offense.

That they've already been convicted of in state court, but seek a much harsher sentence, and there's, unfortunately, a Supreme Court case that says that double jeopardy does not apply to separate sovereigns.

So it's a wild thing that I have a difficulty explaining to my clients.

That's fucking bullshit.

It is bullshit.

It's really fucked up.

That's some bullshit.

So in practice, most of the time, like, the overwhelming majority of the cases, when the feds pick up the case, the state is going to dismiss.

There's, like, an agreement in place between the state prosecutor and the federal prosecutor.

Like, hey, feds, you take the case.

We'll dismiss it.

You guys take care of it.

But there are occasions where, and this is going to be one of them we're going to talk about at the end, where there's not that sort of agreement, and so the two sides can each independently try to get a conviction.

Okay, okay.

So, all right, Dustin, that's the case.

Your client's charged with carjacking, fell in possession of a firearm, and discharge of a firearm in connection of a felony or something like that, facing up to 30 years of prison time.

You look at the – you get the complaint, you see the charges, you read the police report, and I imagine what happens next is you go and meet your client, Gary, right?

I did.

Lauren has a question.

Before you meet your client, you said that he didn't give a statement because, you know, he'd been shot and was unconscious.

But was there also evidence that you received before you met with your client that they investigated or tested anything in the car?

There was.

So there was ballistics evidence of the, you know, shell casings that were found in the car.

They test fired the two guns that were recovered in Mississippi, but they were the guns from the car.

They – and there actually were – there actually was a statement that Gary made later on.

Several weeks later when he leaves the hospital and is being booked, the cops left their body cameras on on purpose, and he talks about the shooting

and says exactly what his defense ends up being, that he was being set up, which we'll get into.

But, yeah, so there was some testing of evidence, but none – you know, the DNA, the ballistics, there's not a whole lot of dispute really that her gun shot her in the chest in the car.

You know what I mean?

There's not like a lot of dispute.

There's dispute over how it happened, who was holding the gun, why it happened, but there's kind of no dispute over those facts.

Okay.

Well, then let's – yeah, let's find out why.

So you go meet your client, Dustin, and you go over to Case with him, tell him the charges, and what does he say?

All right, so when I first get to meet Gary, you know, it's right before the initial appearance.

So he's been in jail for almost a year on the state charges with a million-dollar bond that he can't make.

And so I go meet him, and, you know, in that first meeting I'm trying to, you know, just make sure he understands what he's charged with,

what the judge is about to tell him, you know.

You know, I'm telling him like I tell all my clients, look, I'm going to come see you at the jail.

I'm going to spend a lot of time with you, hearing your story.

And right off the bat, Gary says, look, Mr. Dustin, you see that paper in front of you?

And I was holding his bond report with his criminal history.

And he's like, you see all that criminal history on there?

He's like, hey, I fuck with gangs, okay?

And that stuff on there, the burglaries, the things I went to prison for, I did all that, okay?

I ain't trying to sit here and tell you like I'm some great dude.

He's like, but I ain't do this shit they talking about.

He's like, now look, I had that gun, right?

I had the guns in the car when I went to Mississippi.

I know I ain't supposed to have a gun, so I get that.

He's like, but I ain't do all that.

I ain't steal her car.

I ain't try to shoot her.

I ain't do none of that stuff.

And so I'm like, okay, man, we're going to get into all that, you know.

But he was so compelling and so like serious.

And he said, and he said this, the very first time I met him, he said, you got to get her phone.

You got to get the victim's phone.

And I was like, why?

And he was like, because her phone's going to show that she was setting me up to be killed that night.

And so I was like, whoa.

I was like, okay.

I was like, there's a whole lot more to this than I see in the initial, you know, packet they gave me.

So then I go sit down with him after the initial appearance and I hear his story, okay.

And his story is wild.

And it ends up being the trial.

And so what he says is that he's from Natchez, Mississippi, born and raised.

And when he was young, he was initiated into a gang in Mississippi, the Bloods.

And that he grew up in the gang lifestyle.

That he, you know, committed crimes and did what he had to do because everyone in his neighborhood was affiliated.

You were either a gangster disciple or a Blood.

And that he wanted to get out of the gang when he was young.

And eventually he gets caught.

He gets caught doing a burglary with other gang members.

And when he gets arrested on the burglary, he sees his opportunity to try to get out of the gang.

And he agrees to cooperate in a murder that happened in Natchez.

And this is about 10 years before my case, okay.

And when he's like 20, 21 years old.

And so he says that he does exactly that.

He admits that he was present one night when three other guys went and committed a murder in Natchez.

And that his gun, my client's gun, Gary's gun, was the gun that was used.

And he didn't actually go to the murder.

But he knew about it.

He gave them his gun.

And then the other people told him exactly what happened and how it went down.

And he agrees to tell all this to a specific detective in Natchez, Mississippi.

And he tells me that detective's name.

And he's like, you've got to go find this detective, right?

I cooperated.

I gave a statement that resulted in this big trial where they convicted the main guy.

He got a life sentence in Mississippi.

Another guy got like 45 years.

And Gary cooperated.

And he got a deal on his burglary where he only served six and a half years.

And so he says that when he got to prison in the Mississippi Department of Corrections, he was immediately targeted.

Because so were the guys he cooperated against.

They're in the same prison.

So he's stabbed.

He's assaulted.

And he ends up spending most of his prison time in protective custody.

You know, which as you guys I'm sure know, you know, if your life's in jeopardy in prison, you put yourself in the hole.

And that means that you're basically punishing yourself for your own safety.

Yeah.

Right.

So he goes to get out of prison only a couple months before this case happens, before the shooting.

And he says that while he's in prison, everyone has cell phones.

And he has a cell phone, just like everyone else in the Mississippi prisons.

And they all use Facebook.

And he starts getting messages on Facebook from the victim in this case.

Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

Everybody has cell phones in prison.

I know that cell phones end up in prison.

But, like, does everybody blatantly have cell phones?

Or everybody has a cell phone that's snuck in?

Yeah, these are illicit cell phones.

Okay.

Oh, illicit.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

These are not supposed to be there.

And when Gary testifies at trial, he's questioned about this by the prosecutor, who is incredulous.

Like, you know, you had a cell phone.

You're a rule breaker.

And Gary's exact statement was, if there's 50 guys on the dorm, 40 guy cell phones.

You know.

And so, yeah, so they're using illegal cell phones.

When you're in protective custody, you got no one else to talk to, okay?

You need a cell phone.

You need a social life on social media, okay?

That's right.

All right.

Please continue.

Yeah, so anyway, so the victim slides into his DMs, right, on Facebook while he's getting ready to be released from prison.

And he knows her because she's the little, yeah.

Oh, you were just going to explain that.

They didn't already know each other.

Yeah, well, they kind of knew each other.

She was the little sister of a gang member he used to run with.

So when he would always go hang out with this guy, this was that guy's little sister.

And she was like a teenager back before he went to prison.

But the gang that he just ratted out.

Yes.

This is the gang he just double-crossed and ratted out.

A hundred percent.

Here's where Gary's going wrong, right?

This is where Gary's not thinking with the right head.

Because he was just like, right, there's a girl talking to me.

I'm going to follow this.

And Gary says almost exactly what you just said in his interviews and at trial, okay?

That, I mean, look, this good-looking girl wants to hang out with him when he gets out of prison.

Like, get out of the way, right?

No questions asked.

That's what's up.

That's what's up.

So he does that.

So he's talking with this girl.

And she's saying, hey, you look cute.

When you get out, let's hang out.

So he gets released.

Oh, Gary.

You know, so Gary gets released from prison.

He's got an ankle monitor on.

He's on parole.

He's being, you know, he has a location monitor system set up.

And he starts hanging out with the victim.

And they're spending a lot of time together.

And she's buying him clothes.

And he's really catching feelings for her, as he would call it.

And everyone's telling him not to do it.

All his friends are like, dude, you know who she runs with?

Like, she's, you know, these people are threatening you.

They want to kill you when you get out.

You shouldn't be running with her.

And he, you know, he's thinking with the wrong head, as you said, Lauren.

And so, so anyways, so he says that she convinces him to go to Baton Rouge.

And how it starts is the night before they go to Baton Rouge, she gets a hotel at this hotel room at this fancy hotel in Natchez.

And they're staying the night.

And he has a cousin who's with him hanging out.

And they go to a gas station next door to the hotel.

And while the victim's in the gas station, my client sees a car drive by.

And he recognizes the car as a car that belongs to some gang members.

And he sees that car kind of roll by, the window rolls down, and there's someone with an AK in the back seat.

And that freaks my client out, right?

Because he's already concerned and worried that, like, his life's in jeopardy because he was a snitch.

This is in Natchez?

The gas station?

This is in Natchez.

This is before they even come to Baton Rouge.

This is the night before.

Okay.

I just want to know what the fancy hotel room is in Natchez.

What's the fancy hotel room?

It's called The View, okay?

And when I say fancy, I guess that's relative to Natchez.

But it is a hotel that's up on the bluffs that overlooks the Mississippi River.

And so it's called The View.

And Dustin, let me just do a little summary just for the audience just in case, you know, they –

because it's a lot there.

Yeah, this one's complicated.

It's a long ways to go.

So let's just make sure we're all on the same page here.

So Gary goes to prison for burglary, but he gets a lenient sentence because he snitched on a murder about someone in his own gang.

So then when he's in prison, he's in protective custody because he's getting stabbed and jumped.

When he's about two to three months – about to get out two to three months, the little sister of a friend of his who's in the exact gang he snitched on and used to run with,

a little sister reaches out to him.

So when he gets out, they start hooking up.

She finds him clothes.

They're hanging out.

And now they're at a gas station at night at a hotel.

There's a hotel.

They're at a gas station.

He sees a car drive by that's associated with the gang that the little sister is in, the gang that he used to run with.

And he sees some type of assault rifle or gun in the car, right?

That's right.

And the word he used at trial when he testified, he called this a shooting car, which was a car that he knew to be associated with gang members that they would use when they would do shootings.

And so now he's on super alert, right?

And so he's worried.

So he spends the rest of the night with the victim.

And the next morning, the victim tells him that she's got to go to Baton Rouge because she has a dentist appointment, is what she says.

And that she wants him to come with him.

And that also, it's her birthday.

And so she wants him to come to Baton Rouge.

And if he does that, she'll buy him some clothes at the mall.

And so he says he didn't really want to go.

He just spent the whole night with her.

But she wore him down.

So he agrees to go to Baton Rouge with her for her to have a dentist appointment and go shopping.

And so that's what he says is the reason to go.

How much time has elapsed from him getting out of prison to now going to Baton Rouge?

Have they been together for like a month?

Two to three months.

Two to three months.

All right, and so here's the trip where it all goes down.

So on the way to Baton Rouge, he sleeps in the car.

She drives.

She's in her car.

We now know that she has a purse that has two guns in it.

She has both a pink and a purple 9mm that she keeps with her.

Okay, because who doesn't, right?

It's so cute.

I love it.

Okay, so anyway, so when he wakes up, this is what he says.

They're at a hotel room in Baton Rouge, which is not part of the plan.

And they check into the hotel.

And when she, when they get in the hotel, he says she's kind of acting funny.

And she leaves the hotel room at some point.

And she leaves her iPad in the room, okay?

And she has an iPhone and an iPad.

And when she leaves, he's playing on YouTube on the iPad.

And what happens, but the text messages she's sending start popping up on the iPad that are happening on her phone.

I guess they're synced together in some way, okay?

With iMessage.

So he starts seeing these messages.

And the messages are saying this.

We're posted up like a mailbox.

You're here to do nation business.

And those are slang words, according to my client, that mean that, like, she must, she's supposed to be doing some gang work that day, right?

And that somebody's nearby.

So that kind of gets him on edge.

And then he looks out the window of the hotel, and he sees that same car from the night before.

Now, we're 100 miles south in Baton Rouge now.

And so he sees the same car now in another town the very next day.

And so now he's really on edge.

And the messages on the iPad are we're posting up?

Yeah, we're posted up like a mailbox, which we learned at trial.

It means that, like, a gang member is nearby on standby, like on standby waiting for the next instruction.

And you're here to do nation business.

And where the boy at?

That was another one.

Which we can all safely assume was Gary.

Right.

So now the victim comes back into the hotel room, and he confronts her about it, right?

He asks to see her phone.

And he says that when he looks at her phone, the messages he saw have been deleted.

They're not there, which makes him more suspicious.

And then he says this happened.

Then he says that her phone rang, and it was a GTL call.

And GTL is a phone service used by the prison system.

Yep.

And he knows what he just got out of prison, right?

He knows all about that.

So he's holding her phone, right?

And he hits answer on the phone, and then he hands it to her and says, answer the phone.

And then it has the recording, like, do you accept the call from the inmate?

And she hits no, or hits the wrong number or whatever, so it doesn't accept.

And now he's like, why wouldn't you do that?

Like, who's calling you from prison?

Okay.

Now, here's where we have to talk about their love life.

Okay.

Now, both of the victim and Gary are not exclusive.

Okay.

When Gary got out of prison, he had had a longtime girlfriend that was with him in prison.

And they were still kind of together during the time that he's running around with the victim.

You know?

And by the way, both parties know all this, right?

No one's running around behind nobody's bag.

This is the world.

I don't live in that world, but this is the world a lot of people live in, I guess.

The longtime girlfriend knows?

Yeah.

The longtime girlfriend knows that he's been running around with the victim.

She's been telling him not to.

Okay?

And not to trust her, right?

And then the victim, she has a boyfriend.

And here's where Gary really should have known better, right?

Her boyfriend is in prison.

Yeah.

Her boyfriend's in prison.

He's still part of the gang.

But he's a part of a different gang.

He's actually not a blood.

He's a gangster disciple.

But her boyfriend is in prison for what?

Murder.

Okay?

And so, Gary knows who's calling when he sees the GTL call.

He knows it's her boyfriend.

And that really freaks him out.

Now, even though her boyfriend's in a different gang, we learned at the testimony of this trial,

once someone rats, the gangs are unified in trying to help each other snuff out people who snitch.

So, it doesn't matter that he was a different gang.

If Gary was marked, that gang would help the Bloods take care of Gary.

And so, she doesn't answer the phone call, right?

And now, he's really freaked out.

And the next thing that happens is her phone immediately rings again.

And this time, it's not GTL.

It's some number.

And he answers the phone and holds the phone in front of her.

And it's like one of her friends, but her boyfriend's on three-way, and you can hear the GTL recording in the background, right?

And so, she freaks out and tries to get off the phone and says some things to get off the phone and hangs up.

And that's when Gary's done.

He freaks out.

And he's like, I'm going to be killed, right?

And he demands that she drive him home.

She's like, we're getting in your car.

You're driving me straight home to Natchez.

And I'm never going to see you again.

Like, this is it.

Like, we're over.

I thought we were the real deal, but we're over.

And so, that starts the car ride.

You left out the, you broke my heart part.

You broke my heart.

I'll never be the same.

I thought you were the real deal.

So, this seems to be when reality is catching up to Gary, that he's messing around with a woman who is doubly gang-connected, right?

Because she's got the boyfriend, and then she's got the brother who's part of the gang Gary snitched on.

100%.

Yeah.

And so, now, Gary's starting to think with the right head now.

And so...

Blood flow's going in the right direction.

That's right.

That's right.

And there was actually some, I don't want to say it heartwarming, but there was some testimony at trial about the fact that Gary was trying to have the relationship talk that night in the hotel room about, like, if they were going to be serious.

If they were going to be serious, because he was going to leave his long-time old lady.

And he was like, I need to know if this is serious before I leave the long-time old lady.

So, here's what happens.

So, when he demands she bring him home, he calls his old lady, okay, before they leave, and tells her, hey, I'm here with that girl down in Baton Rouge that, you know, I've been running around with, and you've been telling me not to, and you were right!

Like, and if you don't hear from me in a couple hours, I'm dead.

They're setting me up down here.

So, he calls his old lady and tells her that.

Oh, okay.

Gary's making it real hard for me to feel sorry for him.

Gary's just making it real hard.

This poor woman with low self-esteem and even lower standards, who stayed with him throughout his incarceration, then sees him come out of prison, and instead of coming to be with her while she supported him, he's like, yeah, I'm going to keep you on the bag burner while I go hang out with this other chick that I think I might leave you for.

There's nothing sexier in a man than when he admits he's wrong, right?

Right?

I mean, that takes a real man to admit when he's wrong.

That's such a man quote right there.

Like, look at me doing the bare minimum.

I admitted I was wrong.

And so then, just to be absolutely clear, so not only is he running around with this woman, who everyone knows, except for Gary, is a bad idea for him to spend time with, but when the other shoe starts to drop and he starts to realize they're right, instead of figuring this out, you know, a way out himself, he calls the other woman to lean on her for some more support.

Man, I'm glad we have a female perspective on this podcast, because that's pretty brutal.

I just wanted to be abundantly clear that he called his back burner bitch off the bench and was like, hey, I need some help because I think this other lady is going to get me killed.

Oh yeah, 100%.

And by the way, his other girl tells him to call the police, and he says, I can't call the police because I have an ankle monitor on and I didn't get permission to leave Mississippi.

So if I call the police, I'm in violation of my parole.

I know, it's stacking up against Gary, isn't it, Lauren?

Well, you know, it also seems like if you're weighing out, like, ankle monitor violation, death by violent gang shooting, that maybe, maybe you could just take your lumps on the ankle monitor violation.

But then he'd be a snitch again, right?

He'd be a snitch.

He'd be a snitch if he calls the police and he's going right back to prison with a double snitch status.

Gary doesn't seem to have a problem being a snitch.

Gary seems to have a problem making smart decisions.

Yeah.

And you know what's, like, interesting about the snitch thing here is, you know, we deal with snitches all the time in criminal defense.

But this was a case where him being a snitch was a part of the defense, which meant that I was going to have to, like, have an entire trial where we talk about all the snitching he did.

And that was, like, there were some difficult conversations about that, but it was necessary, right?

The only way he believes he's being set up and all this kind of stuff is to prove the snitching.

All right.

Okay, so he calls the other girlfriend and says, you know, I might be killed, and then what happened?

She says, call the police.

He says he can't because of the ankle monitor.

And he says, I can't.

I got an ankle monitor on, but I'm telling her to bring me straight home.

So they get in the car, and he says as they pull out of the parking lot, that other car follows them.

And he says it pulls out with no lights on.

It's like following them with no lights on.

And so what had happened is, and there's a little bit of geography that's important, okay?

So Baton Rouge is on the east side of the Mississippi River, and so is Natchez, right?

So you'd never have to cross the Mississippi River to go from Natchez to Baton Rouge.

But where they actually got the hotel room was across the river from Baton Rouge in a little town called Port Allen.

And Gary didn't know this because he was asleep in the car on the way there.

So he doesn't know that they crossed the Mississippi River to get to the hotel.

He thinks he's in Baton Rouge, so as he's in the car and she's driving them, she gets on I-10 and crosses the Mississippi River,

which would be actually going into Baton Rouge to go north to Natchez.

It's actually the right way to go home.

But he doesn't know that, and he thinks this is not the way to Natchez.

She's driving me somewhere else to be set up, and the car's behind us right now.

So he confronts her in the car, and he says, you know, who are the car behind us?

Like, what's going on?

And he says that she turns the dome light on in the car, which is a signal to the car behind them,

and then she pulls a gun, right?

She pulls her pink 9mm, and they start tussling in the car, and they're fighting over the 9mm,

and he says that that gun actually, it goes off while they're fighting over it,

and the bullet goes in the floorboard somewhere, and then that gun falls,

and then she pulls the second gun, and they fight over the second gun,

and then the fight over the second gun, now we're on the purple one, right?

It gets turned around, and she's shot through the chest.

And she says, you shot me, and then she slows down and jumps out of the moving car.

If it was going to be her the whole time, and not these other guys who have been trying to kill Gary

and are presumably in the car following them, why didn't she just shoot him while he was asleep in the car?

Why wait until he's awake and they can struggle over it?

A hundred percent.

I don't know.

I don't have a good answer to that.

I will tell you that what Gary and some of the other people we interviewed said is that,

like, when she turned that light on, that she knew that Gary knew that was a signal.

So now that car behind them is probably about to, like, she's going to stop,

that car behind them is going to stop, and it's going to go down right there on I-10.

And so she pulled the gun to make sure Gary didn't do something, like try to assault her.

She's pulling the gun basically to say, like, we got you.

That's what Gary thinks at the time, but he doesn't go down like that, right?

He struggles for the gun with her, the tussle happens, she's shot through the chest, jumps out of the car.

And so at this moment, right, Gary has a decision to make.

He can get out of the car and try to help her.

If he does that, what's going to happen?

The car behind him is going to kill him, right?

Okay.

So he jumps and takes control of the car, okay?

And then what happens next becomes really important.

He calls 911, okay?

And this fact was always disputed.

But what happened is when we first got the case, there was a big newspaper article.

This was a high-profile case because, you know, someone was shot and left on the bridge.

And in the newspaper article, it said that BRPD confirmed that the shooter called 911.

That's what he said.

And so, like, from day one, I'm like, what?

You know?

And then we don't get any 911 calls in Discovery.

And so that was always an interesting fact.

So Gary says, I called 911 and said, I'm lost.

I'm being chased.

I shot this girl.

She's on the bridge.

And I don't know where to go.

You're saying that that was in the news, that the shooter called 911?

Yes.

It was in, like, a newspaper article.

But you didn't have anything to confirm that?

Nothing.

Nothing in Discovery said that.

We pulled the preliminary exam transcript from state court.

So, like, right when he was arrested, there was a preliminary hearing.

And the homicide detective testified to establish probable cause.

And he said that Gary called 911 after he says it on the sand.

Like, almost like saying he knew about the call or had heard the call or something.

And so that call was never produced.

We were told lightning struck 911.

We were told that there was no call, that it was a mistaken statement by the detective.

We were told all sorts of things.

But there was never proof of the 911 call given.

But Gary said he called 911.

And so that's the first thing he says he did, right?

Now, the next part is confirmed.

He says that he then starts calling everybody he knows.

He calls the old lady again.

He calls his mother.

He calls his brother.

And all of them are telling him, like, you know, stop, call the police.

And he's saying, I can't because I'm being chased.

He's like, I'm just going to go back to Natchez.

And then he does this.

He calls the Natchez Police Department.

And this is confirmed.

So he calls the Natchez Police Department and says, hey, I'm Gary.

And I shot somebody in Baton Rouge.

And I'm coming back to Natchez.

I want you all to set up a roadblock so when I get there, the people won't keep chasing me if they see cops, right?

And I'll turn myself in, okay?

And the Natchez Police Department thinks that they're talking to a crazy person.

And they're like, wait, wait, what?

And so they transfer him to a police officer who Gary knows, okay, from his time getting in trouble in Natchez.

And the police officer says, tell me what's going on.

And Gary says the same thing.

Like, I went down here with this girl.

She's setting up to kill me.

And now I'm being chased.

I need you to wake up the sheriff.

Get a roadblock.

And so this officer in Natchez, Mississippi, he's like, wait a minute.

You say you shot someone in Baton Rouge?

And by the way, Gary thought she was dead.

So he's saying he killed someone in Baton Rouge.

He said, and she's on the bridge.

And so this officer puts Gary back on hold and calls the Baton Rouge Police Department.

And there's a recording of this call.

And the officer says this.

He says, hey, this officer up here with Adams County Sheriff's Office, we got a guy on the phone saying he shot somebody in a domestic thing down in your town.

Was someone shot, like, on the highway?

And this person for BRPD says, no, that's not happened.

And the officer says, are you sure?

Like, this guy, he's like, he's coming my way with guns.

He says he shot somebody.

Like, there's no shooting, nothing?

And the lady's like, nope.

By the way, none of that's true.

I mean, like, of course she'd been found on the side of the road.

Like, of course there had been a shooting, but these are police officers in bureaucracies, like, not talking to each other and not caring or looking, right?

So the officer gets back on the phone with Gary and now he thinks, the officer, that Gary's just, like, hi, you're crazy, you're insane.

And so he just blows him off, right?

So the BRPD, Bowden Roosh PD, they actually went to the scene of the shooting of the girl, right?

Right, yeah.

They found her on the side of the road and saved her life.

Because that's because...

Just laying there like roadkill.

Because Gary called.

Gary's when they called 911 over there, right?

They did not go and look for her on the side of the road until a passerby or called 911.

And they have that 911 call.

This is all the mystery of the 911, right?

Like, where it's really, it really was unclear whether that 911 call happened, right?

Because they did have a 911 call from 30 minutes later where someone on a truck says, hey, there's a lady on the side of the road bleeding everywhere.

They do have that recording.

The proof that he called 911, to me, is the homicide detective testifying in state court that he called 911.

Like, to me, like, that's the...

It had to have been true.

They just, they didn't preserve it.

It was, that's kind of what I went with at trial, you know?

And Gary testified that he called 911.

All right, so where are we then?

We are...

Okay, so now he has called the police officer and talked on the phone with the police officer in Natchez.

That phone call, according to the records, was 50-something minutes.

So he's on the phone with this police officer for most of the drive back toward Natchez.

And then eventually he gets off the phone with the officer because the officer tells him, I'm not waking up the sheriff.

We're not setting up a roadblock.

You're crazy, right?

Like, good luck.

There's no shooting.

You just, you're just making shit up.

So now he gets off the phone and now he's about to run out of gas.

And he's still about 30 minutes from Natchez.

And so he decides that, like, he has to make his last stand.

He can't keep driving.

Is he still seeing the other car behind him?

Off and on, okay?

He says there are times when there's not a car behind him.

There's times where there is a car behind him.

But his real concern is that everybody knows where he's going.

Like, he's going back to Natchez.

So he's really, he's worried that phone calls have been made to people along the route that are in the gang, that people could be looking for him.

So even when he's not seeing a car directly behind him, he still is under the fear that, yeah, he's very paranoid.

So he comes upon this really big, well-lit gas station.

It's 2 in the morning.

And he decides, like, this is my last stand.

I'm going to pull as close to the door as I can.

And I'm going to jump out with these two guns.

I'm going to run in the gas station where there's cameras.

And if it's World War III, like, at least it'll be on video, right?

And so that's what he does.

And by the way, his flashers on this car have been on the entire drive.

Okay?

And he says he did that because he wanted to be stopped by the police.

He said if he just saw a police officer, he'd have pulled over.

So he pulls in the gas station, doesn't put the car in park.

And so when he gets out, the car idles forward until it hits the little barrier right by the front door.

And he gets out.

And this is all on video.

And he is shirtless, tattoos all over his body.

And he is carrying both 9 millimeters in one hand, kind of like by the slides.

And he has her phone in the other hand.

And as soon as he walks out of the car, he's screaming, call the police, call the police, call the police.

And he walks through the front door.

And he's screaming.

And when he walks in the gas station, there are two, like, customers and a clerk.

And the first customer, as soon as he sees them, that customer gets the fuck out of Dodge.

Like, just slips out the door and takes off, right?

It's like, uh-oh, shit's going down.

The other customer is actually wearing a shirt that has, like, a logo of the state of Mississippi that makes him look like an official or something.

Like, maybe he, like, works for the state.

And so, immediately, Gary walks right up to that guy and says, you're the police, huh?

And he says, listen, I just killed a bitch in Baton Rouge.

These are guns.

That's her car.

Here go her phone, right?

They trying to set me up.

But that ain't going to happen tonight.

I ain't dying tonight, motherfuckers.

Like, you know, it's on.

They about to pull up in here.

And it's on.

And so, this guy says, okay, and then Gary says, well, call the police.

The guy says, I am, I am.

And that guy gets the fuck out of Dodge, right?

Runs out the store, okay?

Which just leaves Gary and the clerk, okay?

And what happens next is very difficult to watch because Gary is losing his grip on reality because no one believes him.

The cops he called didn't believe him.

He's even starting to maybe think in his own mind that he doesn't believe what just happened,

that he killed a girl.

And so, he's screaming at the clerk, call the police, and she's frozen in fear.

She's not calling the police.

She's not hitting the panic button.

And minutes go by while he's just, like, pleading.

He's screaming at the cameras.

I'm not robbing nobody.

I just need the police.

And then he starts threatening her.

He starts threatening her.

He starts wondering if she's in on the gang.

Is she affiliated with the gang?

Is that why she's not calling the police?

And, like, it really starts to go off the rails, right?

And then the police officer shows up.

And, like I told you before, Gary puts the guns down, retreats in the store, doesn't follow all the instructions, and gets shot in the back several times.

But he's not dying tonight.

So, it's all right.

Yeah.

Oh, it's unbelievable that he lived, if I'm being honest with you.

And so...

Yeah.

The imagery is pretty compelling.

I just, you know, no shirt, tattoos, and a pink and purple gun.

And purple.

Right.

No wonder nobody was taking him serious, right?

And screaming.

And it's two o'clock in the morning.

Not really scared of a pink gun.

I will say, Dustin, you've already won me over, though.

I'm back to feeling sorry for Gary, so...

Yeah.

And so, anyway, so Gary tells me this long story, right?

We're still talking about my first visit with him at the jail.

And he tells me this, like, super long story of his life back when he cooperated, and this victim, and he caught feelings for her, and all this kind of stuff.

And I'm just like, what?

Like, okay.

So, you know, I'll start...

Yeah, what's that like?

Now, when Gary tells you this long, drawn-out, dramatic story, you know, like, are you, like, hanging on every word he's saying?

Do you disbelieve him a little bit?

Are you thinking, like, I may need to declare a doubt to his legal competency at this moment?

Like, where are you in terms of Gary?

Or are you just Team Gary, and you're like, yeah, Gary, and we're going to prove it at trial.

I got you, bro.

Don't even worry about it.

You know, like, what's...

I've been accused of believing my clients too much throughout my career.

Like, I really want to believe their stories.

Even I had a hard time, like, really following the story.

And there were just a lot of issues.

The video from the gas station in Mississippi just, to me, looked like someone who had lost their mind.

And that was a big concern of mine, of how am I going to explain that to a jury?

And then the other question, you identified a great one, Lauren.

Why would the other gang members not stop and pick her up?

Why would they leave her to die on the side of the road?

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

I couldn't find the 911 call.

And at first, when I'm talking to him in the jail, I don't know that I can confirm any of this.

And remember what he told me the first time we met.

You got to get her phone.

So I remember thinking, all right, let me get with my investigator.

And let's start, like, let me see what I can do about this phone.

And if that starts to corroborate some of the story, then maybe we'll start following all these rabbits in this case.

And so that's kind of what I was thinking, but it was such a wild story, right?

In Defense 101, or sometimes you just got to tell your client's story.

That's all you're doing.

Your whole goal, your whole defense, the whole trial, you're just telling your client's story.

That's what we're doing as defense attorneys.

Even if it's crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, so that's goal number one is to get the cell phone, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So I kind of, I guess I kind of left that meeting thinking that there's a few things I need to do.

I need to get her cell phone, one.

I need to confirm this cooperation story in Mississippi of this big murder that happened 10 years before.

And then I needed to, like, try to figure out, did he call 911?

Did he call the police?

Yeah.

Can I prove any of that?

Those are the things I was focused on.

So we went and looked at, we got no phones in discovery, right?

No forensic dumps, no nothing.

And so immediately I want her phone.

And so I give a specific discovery request to the prosecutor.

I'm like, hey, he has the phone when he goes into the gas station in Mississippi.

He's holding it.

Like, where is it?

Like, I want it.

I want a forensic dump of it or whatever.

And the prosecutor says, like, we don't have it.

And so I filed a second request and said, like, well, I mean, like, that's not good enough.

Like, what did you do?

Where's the chain of custody?

And in some of the evidence photos from the gas station in Mississippi, there were, it's in a photo of the, like, post-shooting evidence collection that was done by state police because the officer involved shooting, right?

And you can see her phone is sitting on a big stack of Monster Energy drinks.

And so I'm like, it's in that fucking photo.

Like, where is it?

And if you don't have it, who did you give it to?

And they produced to me a piece of paper that showed that they gave it back to the victim a couple weeks later and had never looked at it or dumped it or anything.

It's like, hey, listen, somebody was, a police officer shot someone in the backs several times.

So we're not trying to collect all the evidence.

There's a cell phone.

We don't want to know what's on that cell phone.

That's kind of, maybe that's what's going on.

Yeah.

So then I had to do something that I think is unique in federal court, and I'd love to hear how you guys do this.

But I needed to get her cell phone records.

I can't get the phone, right?

The phone's long gone.

But I want to get her cell phone records.

And in federal court, I can't just issue a subpoena ducus tecum to somebody.

I have to get court permission to subpoena a thing.

I can subpoena people to hearings.

But to subpoena a thing or a document or records, I have to have court approval under Rule 16.

Do you guys have to do that?

The technical rule is we don't have to, to answer your question, ask permission from the court first.

We can SDT whatever it is that we like.

No, we certainly don't have to ask permission to subpoena something.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

So far, you're not making a real strong case for how great federal, the federal legal system is.

Oh, wait.

I'm supposed to be defending the federal system?

Because I'm here to bitch, man.

You're in good company.

So anyway, so I have to get court permission.

So now that I know from the prosecutor that there's no phone, the prosecutor ain't got no records, I want her phone records, but I didn't want the prosecutor to know.

And I didn't, just because of strategy reasons, but also I wasn't sure it was going to be in there.

And so what I did is I filed an ex parte motion for permission to subpoena her cell phone records.

And if you're subpoenaing something that belongs to a victim, there's even more rules you have to follow.

And so to get that, I had to divulge the theory of defense to justify to this judge why she should let me go rummage through these records.

So I had to put in there, like, Gary getting set up to be killed down in Patten Roots.

Like, that's the defense.

Now, the prosecutor doesn't know this, but the judge and their staff know this at this point.

So anyway, so they grant the motion.

We subpoena the cell phone records, and we get the cell phone records.

And I have, you know, like any defense team, you know, I don't deserve the credit for any of this, right?

I had a wonderful investigator in this case, Patricia, and I had a wonderful paralegal who also did some investigation of her own, Michelle.

And so Michelle, you know, handled all these subpoenas.

We had to go back and forth with Verizon or whoever it was, and we finally get the records.

And wouldn't you know, they support Gary's story.

And so we, you know, immediately, I can remember Michelle gets the records, and she's, like, on the phone with me.

And she's Google searching and using clear databases, all the phone numbers that we see from that night.

And then she's, like, it's GTL.

It's GTL.

It's GTL.

And we look at the days before.

GTL.

GTL.

And all the dates match up.

The times match up.

And I'm, like, fucking Gary.

You know, like, he's totally telling us the truth.

And then I was all in, right?

When I saw the phone records, I'm, like, I'm all in now.

Okay.

So these phone records showed that she made a 15-minute phone call, or she got a 15-minute phone call from her boyfriend in prison when she was out of the room in the hotel.

Okay, so when she left the room and he was seeing the messages, she also had a 15-minute phone call.

She also had a long phone call with her boyfriend in prison at the view the morning before, right before she convinced Gary to go to Baton Rouge with her.

Okay?

So, like, that corroborates it.

Then we can see the three-way call.

We can see the rejected GTL call that he described.

And we can see the three-way call she gets right after.

It's all in the records, right?

And then after the shooting, oh, and we see the call to the old lady.

It was on her phone, right?

We see the call from her phone to the old lady before they leave the room, right?

So now that's verified.

To the bench girl.

That's right, yeah.

Yeah, the bench girl.

Hopefully she's getting promoted, but, yeah, she was the bench girl at the moment.

So, and then after the shooting, there's not a 911 call on there.

There's, like, a gap of, like, 30 minutes after the shooting with no calls on her phone.

The defense theory was always that he's making those calls on his phone until his phone dies, okay?

And where's his phone, you might ask?

It was still in her car when they released her car back to her as evidence.

They never seized it, looked at it, or anything, okay?

And she agrees with that on the stand when the victim testifies that she found his phone in her car when the cops gave it back to her.

The car where the crime happened.

And so, and then after the shooting, we see on her phone records the calls to his mama, his brother, and the calls to the Adams County Sheriff's Office.

That's the calls with, you know, where he's telling the cops what happened, and they get on the other line and call Baton Rouge PD.

And we have a recording of the call to Baton Rouge PD where they say there's no shooting.

And so, so now I'm like, everything Gary told me is true, according to these records.

And so now I'm all in, right?

And so I'm like, what's the next step?

Well, I need to prove he cooperated, right?

And so Patricia, my investigator, I say, hey, look, here's the name of this detective that Gary says he cooperated with, like, see what you can do.

And this, my wonderful investigator, she goes to Natchez, Mississippi, finds this now, like, head of the homicide department detective, and becomes friends with him.

Like, he agrees to talk, I go up there and meet with him, he opens the file from the murder investigation and shows me Gary's statements, handwritten statements, says exactly what he told me.

Like, totally cooperated against this in this murder, his cooperation was instrumental, the cop tells me, by the way, the guy he cooperated against, one of the most violent people in Natchez history.

This is what the homicide detective tells me.

Like, oh, and I also learned that another person who cooperated in that investigation was killed, like, around the time this shooting happened, where Gary, you know, with Gary, that is the case that we're talking about.

So now I'm like, oh, shit!

Like, he really cooperated, and the guy he cooperated against is super dangerous, right?

And now, and so I'm listening to this detective tell me this, and you know, like, cops aren't our friends, you know?

And I remember sitting there going, like, I think I literally said this, and I said, you know I have to, like, subpoena you.

Like, I need you to tell this to the jury in Baton Rouge on Gary's carjacking case.

And this detective said, well, of course, it's the truth.

I was like, oh, my God.

I don't know.

It's okay.

So now I got a detective that's going to be a defense witness.

It's just getting crazier.

Right.

I feel like I've been burned by a lot of police officers, you know, who tell you one thing, and then once the trial date show comes around, they're kind of like switched, you know, our two-face in some ways.

Oh, yeah.

I was totally terrified of that, but I will say this.

I mean, he gave us copies of Gary's statement, so, like, I knew he couldn't deny that, you know, because I had the statement where I could say, isn't this the statement you gave me?

Didn't you meet with me and Patricia?

Mm-hmm.

You know, I felt like I could go through those things.

Is the fact that somebody else, the other person who snitched, was shot and killed around the same time as Gary's incident, is that relevant?

Does that come into evidence?

Um, I got it into evidence, but that was a big concern of mine.

Yeah.

That guy was killed after, it was after our offense conduct.

So, it was, like, it was in the time that Gary was in state jail, but before the feds picked up the case.

And so, it was in that, like, year before, after the shooting, but before I met him.

And so, I remember thinking, like, is it relevant?

Like, certainly, I can't, I can't prove that, like, what, why, the shooting was unsolved.

And we talked about that shooting with the homicide detective in Natchez, and he was like, and I, because, you know, I'm like, well, surely he was killed because of the cooperation, right?

Like, you know, that's why he was killed, isn't it linked to the guy he cooperated against?

And, you know, the homicide detective was like, I mean, it's unsolved.

Like, you know, I have my theories, I have my suspicions, but I can't say that, right?

It's unsolved.

We don't, he was killed in a drive-by shooting in his front yard at his daughter's birthday party.

You know, it could be for any other reason, dude's gang affiliated, you know?

And so, so, but, but it ends up coming in, to answer your question, Gary, I get Gary to say it, and I get that detective to say it when he testifies, that, and I got it in under this guy's, right?

I got it in under the, you know, Gary testified against this guy, what is testimony now?

Now, you're the homicide detective.

The guy Gary testified against, is he violent?

Is he capable of murder?

Is he capable of harming people from prison by giving directions or orders?

And I'm getting yeses, yes, yes.

And I'm like, and didn't another cooperator get killed in this very case?

The answer is yes.

You see what I mean?

So, like, I kind of got it that way without, without getting too much into the details, you know?

And I, you know, that, there was a lot of delicateness in this case, because the prosecutor is a, is a, is a good trial lawyer.

And so, I knew he was on his toes.

So, we got that.

So, now we can prove the cooperation in Mississippi with, of all things, of the head of the homicide department in Natchez, right?

Okay.

So, you got the phone records.

They, they, it proves, you got the, the victim's phone records, the alleged victim's phone records.

It shows all the calls from the GTL, shows all the calls from the family members.

You got the, you got the detective in Natchez, who opens up the file for you, shows you Gary's statement, shows you that Gary was instrumental to taking this big, bad guy down.

And, so, where do you go next in your preparation of the defense?

So, now, I mean, one thing I really wanted to do early on was interview the victim, right?

And see if she would talk to me or my investigator and see what she said.

And, and my approach was, there's just a whole, you know, there's a whole lot of facts of what happens the night that the shooting goes down.

Like, she's never going to admit Gary's version of what happened in the car, presumably, right?

But, like, there's a whole bunch of lead-up facts that would support he's being set up that I was hoping I'd get her to admit now so I could impeach her with later.

So, my investigator, Patricia, interviews her, gets her on the phone and interviews her, does a long interview, and then, and calls me after the interview and says, hey, she talked to me.

You know, we interviewed her, identified who we were, you know, we worked for Gary, we're the defense team or whatever.

And, and she confirmed a lot of things to Patricia, like Gary called his old lady from the hotel room, that there was, that Gary saw a car at the gas station the night before in Natchez, and he claimed he saw the same car in the hotel room, in the hotel parking lot, right?

Now, she didn't agree that that was some nefarious car, but she agrees that Gary saw that car and pointed it out.

She agrees that a car followed them when they left the hotel that night, right?

So, she agrees to these facts that support Gary's story.

But, my investigator told me something important.

She said, you, you need to interview this girl because I'm not so sure the jury will think this girl was setting him up, right?

And so, that's important to me.

So, we set up a Zoom interview with, with the victim.

And so, we're on Zoom, it's me, it's my investigator, and it's the victim.

And I'm asking her some of the same questions.

I'm getting her to just confirm a bunch of facts.

These are her guns.

Gary had never handled the guns before.

You know, like, they were hidden in the car.

It's not like they were in Plainview where Gary would know where they were.

Like, that kind of stuff.

She stuck by her story that she was coming to see the dentist, which is kind of absurd.

And then, so then I get to the point where I've got everything I wanted.

And so, this was the decision I made.

I made the decision to start seeing how much gang things she would admit to me.

So, my first question is, who is, and I named her boyfriend that was in prison.

I used this, you know, I used this gang nickname.

And the second I said that, everything changed.

Her demeanor changed.

And we're on Zoom so I could see her.

Everything changed.

Her voice changed.

And all of a sudden, she was like, I ain't fucking doing this.

Like, and then I got to, like, what is this about?

Like, why y'all asking, why y'all bringing that name up?

And I'm like, I know who that is, right?

That's your boyfriend.

I'm just trying to figure out, like, you know, were you talking to him that night?

Like, you know, you're with another guy?

Like, what is it?

You know, I'm just trying to figure out what happened.

You know, like, tell me.

You know, just tell, I'm just here.

I want to hear your version of what happened, you know.

She shut off.

She got real.

All of a sudden, something, she had to go.

She's getting some other call.

Hung up.

Never answer one of our calls again.

So, I left that going, okay, I can get her.

I got her, okay.

She can put on a good facade.

Yeah, she can put on a good facade, but she's hiding something, right?

And that's all I need the jury to think, that she's hiding something or whatever.

You just need the mask to slip a little bit in front of the jury.

If the investigator's worried that it might not be believable that she could set him up.

If you could just get that mask to slip a little bit, you've got enough to work with.

Yeah.

And also, like, my goal, too, in that conversation was to really let her know that I know everything.

That, like, I know what happened.

I see you.

Like, I know everything.

And, you know, you just need to know that when you see me in court, I know everything.

And I can prove.

You know what I mean?

Like, so I wanted to leave that impression.

Once it got to the point in the interview where I got everything I wanted, if she wasn't going to play ball, I wanted to leave that impression.

And so that was a – so I got that.

So I was like, okay, that was – and the fourth thing I wanted to do is I wanted to find out what happened on the phone call between Gary and the Natchez Police Department while he's driving back to Mississippi.

So we've proved that it happened because it's in the phone records.

It's like a 50-minute phone call.

Yeah, you said it was almost an hour.

Yeah.

So we have the phone records that says that.

And we have the phone call from the cop in Natchez calling BRPD saying, hey, is there a shooting down there?

And BRPD says no.

But I don't really know what happened on that call except for what Gary tells me.

And so I need to find that cop.

And so I have the recording where he calls BRPD, the cop from Natchez, Mississippi, and he says, this officer with Adams County Sheriff's Office, I'm calling about a – and you can't understand his name.

He says his name.

You can't understand it at all.

So I put my investigator on.

I'm like, you've got to find that cop.

We even asked the homicide detective, hey, do you know who this cop is?

And we played the audio, and he was like, I don't know who that is.

So my investigator, she –

Yeah.

Obviously, then, the call where Gary's on the phone that's 50 minutes long, that was not recorded even though he called the police station.

Exactly.

And the answer we got from the police was he called, like, the main administrative number, and that number's not recorded.

Had he called 911 or one of the emergency hotlines, it would have been recorded.

And by the way, they said they changed that policy after this case.

So now the administrative line's recorded because it kind of became a big deal in the evidence in this case.

So my wonderful investigator, she –

One more question.

There's no report in the discovery from the shooting – from the gas station shooting because there was – reports were generated from that.

But there was – and you got all of that evidence, right, from the gas station?

Yeah.

So after a lot of fight – so I got all of the, like, small town stuff.

You know, in fact, this is such a small town that the sheriff wrote the report, right?

So the sheriff wrote the report of the officer-involved shooting.

There's a couple statements from bystanders who saw it happen.

But then Louisiana – I mean, Mississippi State Police comes in and does the officer-involved shooting.

And I wanted all of that evidence.

I wanted that whole file because, you know, they interviewed the cops and all.

And so I had to fight to get it, but eventually I got that file.

And so I did get the reports and stuff from Mississippi.

But not – oh, by the way, that's a different agency.

That's a different agency than he called.

So let me – I guess I'm going to make that clear.

So where the gas station thing goes down is Woodville, Mississippi.

So that's the – that's a different county than Natchez where he was going.

And he calls Natchez because he knows the phone number of the police department.

He grew up there.

So he calls the number he knows, and that's the administrative line.

So he's talking to the Natchez guys, and they don't know that down in Woodville, 30 miles south,

this whole shooting thing is about to happen, right, with the cops.

And so – so my plan is to find the cop who talked to Gary that night.

That's who I want to find and see what he says.

And so my investigator just calls the police department up there and just says,

hey, we just trying to – we need to find who this is.

Like, we have a recording of one of your cops.

We know who he is.

There's a big case.

It's really important, guys.

And then she three-ways me on, and sure enough, there's this wonderful lady

at the Adams County Sheriff's Office who's like,

well, if you could play the recording for me over to the phone, dear,

I might could tell you which one of our cops it was.

And so I, like, played the recording on my computer and held my phone up to it.

And the lady goes, well, by golly, that's – and she says his name.

That's – and then she says, wait, Sheriff, come over here.

And then the sheriff comes over, and he's like, listen, is that – what's his name?

And the sheriff goes, oh, yeah, that's what's his name.

And we're like, well, can we talk to him?

And they're like, radio him.

And they radio him.

And they're like, hey, you need to call these people.

And five minutes later, I'm on the phone with the cop, and he tells me this.

He says, oh, hell, yeah, that was me.

And he's like, I know Gary.

And that motherfucker – he's like, I was on duty that night.

And dispatch – yeah, he's like, I arrested him a couple times.

He said that.

He's like, dispatch called me and said, there's a crazy person on the phone saying they killed somebody, and they're coming to Natchez.

And then he gets on the phone, and he's like, oh, shit, it's Gary.

And he's like, all right.

He's like, well, tell me what happened, Gary.

Gary – his story is the same as Gary's.

He tells him what happened in Baton Rouge.

He says he calls Baton Rouge Police Department.

They tell him – he doesn't know – I know all this.

He's like, they tell him there's no shooting, and he thinks, well, fucking Gary's off his rocker, man.

He just – he wants to do some drugs or something.

And he confirms a crazy fact, which makes me know it's true, right?

He says Gary kept wanting him to wake up the sheriff.

And I was like, why he didn't wake up the sheriff?

He said I'm not waking up the sheriff because some crazy dude's on the phone.

And so I found that guy.

So that was to me like one of the final investigation things that I really wanted to kind of help prove for Gary.

Hey, Dustin, when Gary was taken to the hospital after being shot, did they do a tox screen on him, though, to see if there was anything in his system?

So that is a wonderful question.

We always believed the answer was no until right before trial.

And so I will be honest with you, one of the greatest fears in this case was that he was on drugs or something, right?

Because remember, his defense at trial is either like an accidental shooting or self-defense in the car and like a necessity duress justification defense on the possession of the gun.

And like, you got to be a reasonable person to sell either of those defenses, right?

And so I was really worried about that.

But there was no toxicology provided in discovery.

And this case was pretrial for a couple of years.

It was COVID.

And so I was always worried that, like, the government was just sitting on it or something.

And they were.

And about a month before trial, they turned over toxicology.

And they had just – it turns out they had never got it before, I guess.

So they turned it over and the toxicology said that he was positive for all kinds of, like, things.

But the only thing that mattered was amphetamine.

And so, like, right off the bat.

That's a bad fact for you.

That's a terrible fact, right?

Especially when you see the gas station video, right, where he looks like, you know, he's losing his mind.

And so it triggered a bunch of things.

I had thought about this a lot.

So when it came, I kind of was prepared.

First, I was going to move to exclude it as being too late, right?

And it was too late.

And that ultimately excluded it.

But one of the reasons why I was able to win that it was too late is I had a real problem with not knowing what medicine he was given to save his life in Mississippi.

So when they showed up in Mississippi and he's dying of multiple gunshot wounds, did they inject him with something that would cause an amphetamine positive to save his life, to restart his heart?

Like, I don't, in the emergency ambulance helicopter, what all was given him?

And so in my response, I raised all that.

I'm like, they have not provided me any of those records.

And then also, the positive screen, the thing that they gave me said that his urine triggered a positive for amphetamine, but no level, no blood screen, no follow-up.

It's just like something changed the color on his urine screen.

And so, you know, I argued, like, I'd have to hire multiple experts right now to come explain to the jury that he might have been given other things that accounted for it.

We don't even know if it's enough to have affected his judgment or, you know, I'm like, I threw the kitchen sink at it because, to me, that was a fatal fact.

And it was excluded by the judge.

And just for our listeners, when we get these reports back, usually there's a more detailed report that follows.

It'll tell you if they had active components of the drug in their blood or if they just had metabolites, which will let you know that they've used at some point but weren't under the influence at the time.

And you're saying you didn't have any of that.

You just had something that said it triggered a positive for amphetamine.

Yeah, like on page 40 of a 60-page ER record, it said urine screen, and there was, like, 40 boxes, and amphetamine was checked.

And so, yeah, no follow-up, no blood tests, you know.

It's a really good argument then.

Yeah, and it was, I mean, that was a terrifying fact, to be honest with you, because I kind of felt like that could be fatal to his defense.

So to get back on course here, so you talked to the sheriff, the Adams County deputy sheriff.

He says that he confirms Gary's story, and I think we left off, we were saying that Gary wanted him to wake up the sheriff.

He's like, I ain't waking up the sheriff for this crazy guy.

So then what happens next in an investigation?

That's pretty much the extent of the investigation.

You know, throughout this whole time, I'm preparing Gary to testify, because I just know that he's got to testify to mount this defense,

because the jury has to believe that he was in fear for his life.

And I will tell you that I thought a lot about how to present this to the jury.

And what I mean by that is, was I going to say that he was being set up to be killed,

or am I going to say he believed he was?

Because I thought those were two different things, right?

And all that matters is what he believed, and whether that belief was reasonable.

And so, like, I remember, like, as I was prepping this case, I had to keep, like, pulling myself back, like,

because I kept trying to want to, like, mount this affirmative case that he was going to be killed,

when I just felt like I just need to prove all the facts that made his belief reasonable.

What he saw on the phone, all that kind of stuff.

So I, you know, worked on him a lot with his testimony about that.

Can we talk about that?

Let's talk about this.

So your defense is going to be necessity and duress, but maybe even self-defense, right?

Okay, so we're talking about a bunch of defenses here.

We got the necessity defense, we got the duress defense, and self-defense.

Now, just we're talking about that in generally speaking,

because it does differ from state to state and jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

But in general, the necessity defense, also known as the lesser of two evils defense,

is a legal defense that may apply when someone commits a criminal act in an emergency situation to prevent greater harm.

The defendant admits to the crime, but claims that the circumstances justified it.

For the defense of duress, a legal defense that acknowledges a defendant's lack of free will

when forced to commit a crime due to an immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death.

And then lastly, we have self-defense.

And we've talked about this a lot on the podcast.

That's when the defendant can use reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family

from bodily harm from an attack of an aggressor,

if the defender has reason to believe they are in danger.

Just a reasonable belief, a reasonable belief that they're in danger.

Right.

Okay, and there's an element of a reasonable belief.

For self-defense, there's an element of reasonable belief that you're in danger

or you're about to face imminent bodily injury or even death,

that the belief has to be reasonable.

It doesn't have to be actual.

It just has to be a reasonable belief.

With necessity and duress, though, it's been a while since I've done one of those cases

and looked at the law on that, and I'm sure it's probably different in Louisiana,

but isn't there like an element of what a reasonable person would do in that situation?

Is that what it is?

Well, there is – I mean, there's also a reasonableness of belief,

but the main component of the justification or necessity is that you only did what you needed to do.

And so in this case, right, the necessity defense was really about the gun possession.

And so what I was trying to create for the jury is he literally possessed the guns from the moment he wrestled them from his attacker

until the moment he saw a cop.

And that's it.

And throughout that two hours, he was in fear for his life.

So that was a necessity, right?

Because you're supposed to get rid of the gun the second you can.

And I was really worried that – and the government argued this in a trial.

I was really worried that they would say, well, as soon as he doesn't see a car behind him,

he should have threw the guns out the window.

He can't be a felon in possession of a gun.

And, you know, the jury didn't buy that.

They believed him.

He seemed safe.

Yeah, well, he just threw a gun into like a random neighborhood or something.

For anybody.

Yeah.

Not for Gary.

At a school playground, you know.

Yeah.

Not for the children riding by on bicycles.

No, I think there's even like for a possession charge,

there is sort of a transportation to the police station sort of exception on the possession.

Like you find something.

Yeah, you either have to be bringing it to the police or you have to get rid of it.

Like in some fashion.

It's a – and I will tell you that like, you know,

so this is the point where like I'm thinking about plea negotiations, okay?

And remember from day one, Gary was saying, hey, man, I did count three.

Like I get it.

I had those guns for that two hours and I'm a felon.

I know I wasn't supposed to be around guns, right?

And so to me, the logical plea was to count three.

And so, you know, I pitched that plea every time I saw this prosecutor.

I have other cases with him.

I see him frequently.

And every time I'd see him, I'd make the same comment.

I'd say, hey, man, we need to resolve that case just to count three

and you dismiss the carjacking and the 924C, the discharge of the firearm.

And he would always look at me like I was crazy.

And I would say, hey, that's all he's guilty of, man.

I'm just telling you.

Like I would make that statement to him over and over just trying to hope I was greasing

the wheel to a count three plea.

And he never bought it.

He never, he never like, you know, even considered the plea to count three.

And so then we had to make a decision, right?

Me, my client, my defense team, Patricia and Michelle.

For a long time, I was going to admit he was guilty of count three in opening with his permission,

of course, right?

And like, and do it and not raise the necessity defense to felon in possession.

And instead, like buy that credibility with the jury and go all in that he's not guilty

of the first two counts because felon in possession is a zero to 10 year charge.

So it's a much more minor charge.

I mean, there's a chance he would, would not serve a whole lot of time on count three.

The jury doesn't know that, right?

But I know that.

So I was so concerned about that necessity defense of the guns.

I mean, he's all, he's in the gas station waving the guns that, that we thought about

doing that.

And my staff helped talk me out of that.

And was like, oh, no.

I don't like that.

Yep.

You have a necessity defense here.

And so we.

Go all in.

That's what's up.

That's what's up.

So he's charged with carjacking and your defense is self-defense on the carjacking, right?

So he took the car.

Well, I mounted alternatives.

Yeah, I mounted alternatives.

My first argument was that he, you know, he, he didn't carjacker, right?

Like that the, to be a carjacking in federal court, you have to commit an act of violence

for the purpose of taking someone's car.

And my argument, one of my arguments of the jury was even the government's version is not

a carjacking.

They got in a fight.

He freaked out and shot.

He didn't shoot her for, he wasn't saying, um, I'm going to kill you and take your car,

right?

He didn't shoot her and take the car to a chop shop, right?

I mean, like this was never about a car.

In fact, that was one of my themes at trial.

And so, so I mounted like that, I mounted like he's just not guilty of it.

But if you think it's a carjacking, it was necessity, right?

And same thing with the discharge of the gun.

I argued that, I mean, his version they testified to is that the gun goes off in the struggle.

No one's, he didn't pull the trigger and point it.

It's like the gun's in a struggle and it goes off accidentally.

So my argument is that like, that's just not a 924C.

That's not an intentional discharge.

But if you think it was, it was, it was necessity, right?

Or it was self-defense.

It's interesting because in this case, the most serious action you would think would be

the shooting her in the chest, even if there's a defense to that, but it's actually a little

bit irrelevant.

It only matters in so much as how the rest of the story unfolds for the justification for

his actions.

And if he's not guilty, yeah.

And if he's not guilty of carjacking, he cannot be guilty of the discharge in connection with

the carjacking.

So like if he's not guilty on count one, they can't convict him on count two, which also

makes, is what makes that defense really important.

All right.

So let's, are we ready to start talking about the jury trial then?

We're done with the investigation, right?

Pretty much.

At least the big pertinent parts.

We probably, I mean, so we're done with the investigation.

We're getting up for trial.

Let's, let's talk about your motions and eliminates, okay?

So what, what motion, what evidence were you trying to exclude?

So, so like I've probably mentioned a couple of times already, the thing that worried me

the most was the video from the gas station.

Because despite, you know, all the evidence supporting Gary's story, that video is hard to

watch to a normal person.

It's pretty terrifying.

And so I wanted to exclude everything from Mississippi.

He's not charged with anything from Mississippi, right?

All his charges happen in Baton Rouge here.

The carjacking, the shooting, and the possession of the gun.

I mean, we don't have venue in Mississippi.

We're in Louisiana.

So, and then also, I was really worried about the cop shooting.

And, and I'll be honest with you, right?

You know, I'm, I'm a very liberal person.

And this happened like in the, you know, in the time, at least the trial was about to

happen, you know, during the George Floyd protests and all.

And so, like, I look at this shooting and it seems to me to be a pretty unjustified cop shooting.

But I was worried.

Well, he shot him in the back.

So, yeah.

Yeah, 100%.

I agree, right?

And so, but I was worried about what the jury would think, right?

And I, and I don't know why, but I had this stuck in my head.

I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I thought that the jury might think the fact

that the cops shot him meant that he did something wrong.

That, like, the very fact that a cop decided to shoot him meant that there was already a

decision that he had committed to crime or something.

And I'll just, I was just worried about that influence.

And I also was worried about getting in trial, like starting to litigate whether the shooting

was good or bad, because I felt like no matter how much I try to stay away from it, that

wasn't going to come up, right?

Because I thought it was a bad shooting.

And so I filed a motion to exclude everything in Mississippi and just said, like, it's irrelevant.

He's not charged with it.

And it is incredibly prejudicial for the jury to see an unarmed black man be shot in the

back in the, in the middle of George Floyd protest, you know, era.

And so we had a hearing on that motion.

The government opposed it and said everything in Mississippi is relevant.

He has her car, her guns, her phone.

All those facts, like, go to prove the crime, which is true.

And his state of mind, his state of mind, it shows him being erratic.

It shows him being crazy, which is corroborates the alleged victim's story in this case, that

he just randomly got crazy and shot me.

100%.

And also, he says, as he walks in the gas station, I killed a bitch in Baton Rouge.

These are her guns.

That's her car.

This is her phone, right?

So the government's like, it's a confession, right?

Like, it's going to come in.

And so what the judge does is the judge says, y'all need to agree, right?

Y'all need to try to come to an agreement about, like, how much of that could come in.

Okay, and so we didn't come to an agreement.

The prosecutor was not interested in an agreement.

And so we basically got a ruling that limited what could come in, right?

And that limitation was that, you know, he showed up there in her car.

The statements he made in there about the shooting and stuff could come in.

But, like, no more than that.

You can't, like, get into the 10 minutes in the gas station where he's yelling at the clerk and waving the guns and saying nonsense.

You can't get it.

Nothing about the shooting.

The entire shooting is excluded, right?

No one can mention anything about that.

And I felt like that was a good compromise.

I just didn't want the video being shown, if I'm being honest.

But I was worried.

So I did this.

I came back to my office, and I got some of my staff here who doesn't know a lot about the case, right?

These are not my investigator and paralegal that worked on the case.

Other lawyers, secretaries.

And I put the video up in our conference room.

And I played it in 30-second increments.

So, like, the first 30 seconds, you know, there's Gary pulling up in the car, walking through.

Call the police.

Call the police.

And I would stop it, and I would say, like, what do y'all think?

And they'd be like, looks like the dude wants somebody to call the police, you know?

So then I'd play the next 30 seconds.

And it's like, oh, look, he's telling that guy to call the police, right?

Like, it's kind of scary that he's waving those guns around.

But, I mean, look, you do look like he needs help, right?

Another 30 seconds.

So we get to a minute and a half.

Everybody in my room is cool.

And then I play the minute and a half to two minutes.

And everybody goes, oh, no, oh, oh, no, right?

So I knew that if I was going to get into a fight at trial about how much that video could be played,

that a minute and a half was my, that was my line that I was hoping I could somehow use.

And so, like, we kind of tell, so, you know, we kind of have, like, an ambiguous ruling going into the trial.

Like, I'm going to wait and see what happens.

But no one's talking about the shooting.

How much is going to come in the gas station?

We'll decide at trial.

But government, you need to be real careful here.

It's kind of the instructions that we got.

So now we were ready for trial.

Dang.

Dang.

So did you get at the minute and a half then?

Sorry, I think I missed that part.

Yeah, so we did.

So I went into trial knowing that that was going to be my position.

But we didn't have a ruling.

We didn't have a ruling at all.

And, you know, I can't remember exactly.

I may have told the prosecutor, like, let's just play a minute and a half.

Like, I may have said that in passing before the trial to try to plant that seed.

Because in trial, when the shit hits the fan about Mississippi, that's the agreement that

they agreed to.

The government agreed that they wanted to play the first minute and a half.

Because that's when he confesses.

That's when you can see him with the guns.

You know, I mean, like, in my argument, that's all you needed.

And I don't think the government really understood the strategy of what happens after a minute

and a half with my defense.

Because the government didn't know my defense going into trial.

Right?

And what happens after a minute and a half?

Like, what hits the fan?

So after a minute and a half, he starts to not hold the guns by the slide and to wield

both of them.

And he starts to.

Now, by then, the other people have left.

And it's just him and the clerk.

And he is pointing the guns at the clerk.

And he is saying things like, I already killed one bitch tonight.

Don't make me kill another one.

You need to call the police.

Are you with those people?

Like, why aren't you calling them?

And, like, to his credit, she's frozen.

And he's asked her to call the police for minutes.

And she's not.

And then he says, then he's telling her, what is the number to the police?

And she's like, 911?

And he was like, you don't even know the number to the police?

He's like, oh, you whipped them people.

You whipped them people.

And so he's just, he's going off the rails.

And he points the gun at her.

He threatens her.

It's terrifying, if I'm being honest with you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then he ultimately ends up getting shot.

And then he also, weren't you telling me that, like, he actually thought the police

officer was in on a conspiracy or something like that?

Yeah.

So he, so whenever, whenever he, whenever the cop enters and Gary's on the ground and the

cop is, is just totally doesn't know what to do and is hesitating, is freaking out.

And, and that, that, in that hesitation, Gary says like, well, oh, you whipped them people.

Here's what he says on the video.

Oh, you whipped them people.

And he stands up and runs back into the hotel, I mean, into the gas station.

And that's when he's shot.

So yeah.

So like, that's a bad fact too.

Like, that's pretty unreasonable to think the clerk and the cop are in on it.

He's growing more and more paranoid.

Yeah.

Which does track with amphetamine use, but we're not going to get into that.

Right, right.

He very wisely had that excluded.

Yeah.

Well, and, I mean, look, I, as I sit here with you today, I'm, I mean, I'm not unconvinced

that that is related to the life-saving treatment.

I'm being honest with you.

I mean, I'm, I'm, until I'm proven otherwise, I'm, I'm convinced of that because he tested

positive for like a million thousand things because they injected him with everything under

the sun to save his life, you know?

So I'm, you know, I'm, I'm not convinced that that wasn't it, but the jury, you know,

didn't hear that.

So that's good.

So, all right.

So then are we ready to talk about the jury trial then?

We are.

There's one, there's one other thing I didn't mention yet.

Sure.

I hired a cell phone expert.

And so, you know, we get all these phone records from the victim's phone and you've seen phone

records.

It's like an Excel spreadsheet with all kinds of gobbledygook and acronyms.

And it's not even in the local time.

It's in the universal time.

And you have to, over here, I think we had to add five hours or delete.

It was complicated.

And I, so I hired an expert in cell phone, uh, call detail logs who created this wonderful

exhibit where he just pulled out every phone call that mattered and made this wonderful,

this wonderful exhibit that was color coded and showed every call that she got from the

prison in the couple of days before and that night, every call, every call that happened

on her phone from like 5 PM until Gary ends up in Mississippi at the gas station.

Every call is on there, but it's explained to a jury.

It doesn't have some code for voicemail.

It says, this call was unanswered and went to voicemail.

This was a three-way call.

This was whatever.

And how long the calls were.

So I did have, I did prepare that as well.

Uh, okay, Dustin.

So you got the, you got the cell phone exhibit.

You got your evidence lined up.

You've interviewed the, the, uh, the alleged victim.

You got the detective from the prior case.

You got the cell phone evidence.

You are ready for trial.

You got the, got the drug, the positive amphetamine excluded.

Feeling good.

How are you feeling at this time?

How do you feel about your case?

You excited?

I'm feeling good, man.

But you know, in this job, uh, I mean like you get your heart broken a lot.

You know, you, you believe in things and, and sometimes you just can't, you know, you get

so invested in a case that the jury don't see it the same way as you.

It's happened to me a lot.

And so, but, but I was optimistic and I also thought like, this story is crazy.

Like this is so entertaining.

Like this is the shit people want to be on juries for.

And so I was like, and I thought like, I'm the right person to sell this.

Right.

Like, I mean, like I believe in it and I just felt, I don't know.

I just, I was so, me and my client were so on the same page and yeah, in sync.

And he was 100% confident, which made me even more scared.

I mean, from Gary was like, they, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to be guilty.

I'm not guilty of any of this.

They're going to find me not guilty.

I'm like, well, you know, juries are crazy, Gary.

You know, you never know, man.

They may not like the tattoos on your neck and your hands and your face.

It's like, you know, I mean, like we are, you're talking about murders and gangs and stuff.

It's going to scare the white people, you know?

And Gary would be like, uh, uh, man, you, nope.

You're going to tell my story and they're going to find me not.

I mean, like total confidence, which just made, put more pressure on me to be honest, but.

So let's talk about the, um, the judge you're in front of.

Have you been in front of this judge before?

Yes.

Yeah.

I've tried several cases in front of her.

Um, she's fair.

She's even keeled as, as you saw from the ruling to exclude the amphetamines.

Not every judge probably would have excluded that.

Other judges might've just continued the case.

Um, and so, uh, I mean, she's fair, but she is meticulous.

Um, she wants you to be prepared.

Um, you know, she doesn't want you to, if you're going to make an objection, you better be specific.

Um, which I appreciate because I was way more prepared for this case.

And I think the prosecutors were right.

I mean, I think they thought this is a slam dunk.

We got a dude who admittedly, you know, shot a girl and left her on the side of the road and then shows up with her car.

Two hours later and her guns like open and shut.

I, I really think that's what they thought.

And I think they thought there really wasn't much to it.

And they did not know my defense was coming.

So, um, well, yeah, it's about the judge.

And so, yeah, I think, I think she's fair.

She's a good judge to be in front of.

Yeah.

And the, and, uh, well, with the prosecutor, I know you mentioned earlier, earlier that the prosecutor was actually, or the ASUA attorney was actually a pretty good trial lawyer, right?

Yeah.

He's a good trial lawyer.

He actually came from state court.

He was a state prosecutor for a while.

And he, you know, I don't know if it was at this time or later, but he, he was like the head of the violent crime section for the U S attorney's office.

So he was no stranger to trying cases that involve victims and violent crimes.

And he's a good lawyer in court.

Um, at the last minute, he brought in a second chair.

Um, and so, uh, you know, they always have two lawyers when they try a case at the end, but really it was just the main lawyer.

And he's a good lawyer.

I mean, I will say this, he's a, and I appreciate this.

He was very ethical in that.

Um, you know, he, he didn't hide anything.

When I did all these discovery requests to figure, to find all these 911 calls and the cell phones and all these things that I thought were missing the Mississippi investigation file from the state police.

Um, he fought to get the things that I asked for.

And when, and when he couldn't get it, he disclosed why didn't withhold anything.

The toxicology we got late.

I could see from when they got it.

That's when they got it.

They didn't ask for it until they got a month before trial.

So, so I appreciated that.

So I knew there were going to be no shenanigans at trial, uh, because this is a good prosecutor.

Now you said that the prosecutor didn't, thought the case was a slam dunk because they didn't know your defense.

Cause you, I mean, a lot of your defense is based off your conversations with Gary, but didn't Gary make a statement to the police at all?

So, so he did, um, and so when he's being booked, so a couple of weeks after he was shot, he's recovered, he's being booked into the jail.

There's a body camera where he does make a statement.

That's largely consistent with what he told me, but I think that the prosecutors thought that was fantastical.

You know, he's saying like, Oh man, I shot this girl in the chest and, uh, but you know, she was trying to set me up.

It was just like the stew pot killings.

And then he's, so he's talking a lot using like slangs and words that have to do with Natchez things.

I think mean nothing in Baton Rouge.

I figured out what all those were in my investigation, but I think if you listen, he just sounded like a guy who was just shooting the shit and talking to him.

It sounds like a confession.

He's missed that.

He shot her.

She jumped out, you know, you know, they were trying to set me up, but they ain't set me up.

I'm not dying.

Like the stew pot killings ain't set me up like that.

I ain't doing that.

You know, she a G queen, but I ain't worried about that is like, he was kind of talking in those kinds of things.

I think the, so I can't say the prosecutor had no idea that Gary thought he was being set up, but I think he thought that that idea was fantastical and was totally on.

Too far fat.

Yeah.

Like no one would believe it.

And, um, and that really comes into play, you know, later, I think in the way that they tried the case.

All right.

Well, let's talk about jury selection then.

How does that go down in a, in a federal court?

Go ahead.

What's your strategy here?

Yeah.

Well, this is where, uh, what, what is, what is jury selection?

What, um, I listened to A and G and I listened to these wonderful stories about you guys selecting juries.

And I often wonder what that would be like because we don't select our juries in federal court.

There is no attorney led questioning in the entire middle district.

And in the Western district of Louisiana, yeah, there's no attorney conducted voir dire, the judge asked every question and you

can submit questions to the judge that you'd like the judge to ask, but the judge is going

to ask it.

Um, and then if there's some follow-up, you can ask the judge to do some follow-up.

And in rare occasions, if a juror is brought individually over something, the judge might

let the lawyers ask some questions to that particular juror.

But, um, this particular judge, no attorney conducted voir dire.

So I didn't ask a question when he picked the jury.

I just, I watched.

You, you still have peremptory challenges and things though, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you still have your peremptories, you can still challenge for cause, but you just don't

get to ask the questions.

And, um, so the judge has like all these standard questions that they ask and then the judge will

have specific questions that, that, you know, the lawyers will have submitted to ask that,

you know, have to do maybe with carjacking or guns or something unique to the case.

But when the judge asks those questions, y'all know, you're not getting any of the answers

that you, that you're looking for.

So the, so the jury veneers just, or the ones that ended up sitting are just kind of random.

You kind of just like, uh, that person seems okay.

Or we'll just go with these people.

Is that kind of like, all right, this 12, definitely not that person or, but there's

no, there's no fun, colorful interactions that you get the, there's not an opportunity in

this moment for you to connect with the jury, right.

And build rapport, right.

None.

You're just gauging their demeanor to the judge, gauging their answers to whatever questions,

but you know, it's like, does anyone here have a strong belief about firearms?

Like no one's raising the, no one wants to be picked on.

So no one's going to raise their hand.

The judge goes, okay, no hands were raised.

It's like half these people in here don't think we should have gun laws, but no one's

going to raise their hand, you know?

So yeah, it's very much, you just sit there, you know, I tell my clients, look, I want you

to watch these people and I want you to notice the ones that you think don't like you, right?

Like let's figure out my call, my, my peremptories by you looking, see who's giving you a good

vibe and a bad vibe.

And I'm going to use some peremptories on some people that give answers that worry me.

You know, if someone says, yeah, I tend to believe the police because my daddy and my

brother are a police officer, like probably going to get rid of that guy.

But yeah, generally we don't know a whole lot about the jury, which is pretty shitty.

Isn't there a thing in federal court where you're, you're, you're allowed to only stand

in certain parts, you know, like when you're giving your opening statement or talking to

the, well, I guess you're not talking to the jury, but is, or doing your cross-examination.

Like you can't just really nilly walk around the courtroom and stuff.

You have to like be in certain parts.

Is that a thing?

Yeah.

So most federal judges are, are like that.

They want you to stay at the lectern.

You shouldn't be walking the pulpit and walking in front of the jury box during your openings

and closing.

You should be behind that podium.

Um, same thing when you're questioning witnesses, I don't, there's not like a rule on it, but

that is totally a custom in federal court to the extent where you should, where you, like

I would ask like, Hey judge, is it going to be okay if during this next witness I walk up

to him because I'm like, I'm gonna need to show him some shit or I need to, you know, is

it okay if I leave the lectern during my closing and the judge would be like, well, don't,

well, don't go too far.

You know, like, you know, stay close.

Okay.

So yeah, no, you're right.

That is totally true.

God, I'm so jealous of y'all.

We can walk around wherever we want.

We can even go into the well.

Yeah.

We asked the judge for permission for the well once and they're like, you can go in the

well anytime you want to.

And you just like walking in and out of the well, doing your opening statement, closing

argument.

So do you get to go like examination, you get to like lean on the jury box, like during

your closing and just like make eye contact with each of them.

You can pound the jury box.

You can slam it, yeah.

What?

Yeah.

Oh man, I might need a career change.

You can walk over and stand behind your client, put your hand on his shoulder.

It's pretty great.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Never done that either.

I'm pointing at him.

Oh my God.

Okay.

That's actually something I hadn't really thought about, but no, yeah, no, we're, uh, we're,

we're in a, we're in lawyer prison over here in federal court, I guess.

Let's, let's hear about that opening statement that you did change to the podium.

Yeah.

Well, so, uh, so in, there is one thing in voir dire I want to talk about.

So, um, so when the pool came in, there were three African Americans on the pool out of like

45, my client's black, the victim's black, by the way, the police officers from Mississippi

are black.

The gangs are black gangs.

And so like right off the bat, I was like, well, this is all bullshit.

Like, this is all, I mean, uh, I can't let an all white jury hear a gang shooting case.

Um, and so I jury in the South, I know.

Right.

And so I made a constitutional challenge.

I was like, you got to throw the whole pool.

We, this is before we even started questioning them.

I was like, I throw them all out.

Like, let's come back in a week with a new pool.

And, uh, and I made the, and the judge like took a recess and thought about it.

And she came back and was like, um, you know, said like, I'd have to prove that there was

some discrimination in how they were selected from the role.

And I like, didn't affirmatively have any evidence of that.

So she was going to, you know, she was gonna, she was gonna let us go forward, but she seemed,

she seemed concerned about it.

She, she expressed, I think in her body language and all, like that she also thought this was

problematic.

Um, but I just didn't, I didn't meet the legal standard and why that's important is

I think it scared the government from striking the three black people and they all made the

jury.

I've been in situations like that before it and the judges, yeah, they never dismissed

the veneer or anything like that, but it is kind of funny that all of that is put on

the record.

Like a judge is on the record being like, this is kind of disturbing.

This is concerning that there is nobody here in this, in this, in the process that has

the same skin color as the defendant.

I am concerned about that, but no, I don't see anything as cool, but it's just funny.

Like they're, they're addressing like the history of racism in the legal system and why this

matters.

And somehow yet they come to addressing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we're supposed to, we're here to have a due process and have a fair hearing and we're

starting off on the wrong foot here and this is a concern and we are falling short.

We're falling short of our ideals, but you know what?

Fuck it.

Let's go.

You know, fuck it.

Yeah.

The legal standard is fuck you.

Fuck you.

Yeah.

You know, so, so I made that challenge and, uh, Hey, you know what?

But as my, my secretary told me later on, thank God you lost that, you know, cause this

turned out to be the right jury for Gary.

Um, the other thing that happened in jury selection is there was a juror who was, you

know, probably a 30 something, uh, white, blonde, white lady.

Um, and she answered like she used to be a teacher and now she does some nonprofit, something

to do with teaching.

But I remember that when, when they had to go through and everybody had to say their gender,

uh, and their age and all that kind of stuff like in the record.

Um, I swear she said, identify as female and like, that's just a liberal trigger to me.

Like that, that's someone who I think is, is probably not your standard Southern conservative,

uh, lady.

And so I swear, I think I heard that my staff didn't hear it.

Right.

And we've debated in the time since whether I really heard that right, but that I, I heard

that I thought.

So like, I, I noted like, Oh, I like her.

And I was like, they're going to strike her.

No way.

She's going to make the jury.

Cause she said that.

And, and also like, you know, she works for a nonprofit.

That's also a bad thing to prosecutors.

Right.

Oh, you, you care about people?

Like, I don't want you on the jury.

So, um, she made, she made the jury and, and that becomes important later because she

becomes the foreperson.

I like that.

I mean, I think, I mean, the nonprofit thing makes me think of like, like right wing conspiracy

theories that threw the election for, you know, Joe Biden in the South, whatever.

Anyways, you know, like that nonprofits aren't looked upon fondly in the South.

That's my impression.

So.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Cause nonprofits are like ACLU and NAACP.

And so.

Commies.

They're all commies.

Uh huh.

Socialists.

Uh huh.

Yeah.

Uh huh.

Um, okay.

So what about your opening?

All right.

So in my opening, you know, so the government gives their standard, grab the podium and deliver

a robot recitation of their facts.

And their theme is, um, we don't just represent the United States.

We represent the victim and she's going to get on the stand and tell you what burnt skin

smells like as a bullet goes through your chest.

And she's going to tell you what gunpowder smells like as a gun is fired inches from your

face and your ears and what the pavement felt like as she jumped out of a moving car to save

her life.

Like, you know, I mean, that's their opening fine, whatever it was fine.

And so then like I had workshop my opening with my staff and my whole goal was to drop

a bomb like, and, and I've listened to a lot of your A and G, um, guests and I love, uh,

a lot of the things.

Right.

And I, y'all be happy to know I use something in the closing in this case that I heard on

A and G.

Uh, but, but one thing that I like to do is I am detailed in my opening and you've had

guests that have said the same thing and guests that have disagreed.

Right.

But, um, I, I want to tell a fucking story in my opening.

I want to hook the jury.

So they're thinking about what I said, the rest of the government's case and be like, oh

shit, dust is coming with something instead of just like keep an open mind or whatever.

And so he, so my opening just started off like this, right?

I just said, uh, the victim brought Gary to Baton Rouge, Louisiana to have him killed

by gang members.

And you paused?

I paused for like 30 seconds.

And like when that happened, the prosecutors all turned, the jury's eyes all got wide because

they've heard nothing about this.

Right.

They heard that he flipped out and shot his girlfriend.

Right.

And, and you know, the, the, everyone in the courtroom was, was visibly shocked except

the court because the court knew that was the defense from the ex parte motion.

And so, and then I just went through and I had a PowerPoint.

I hate PowerPoint, but I had a PowerPoint that had two slides and the first slide said, this

was never about a car.

And so then I, you know, I was like, this is, you're here to decide whether he carjacks

somebody and shot him.

This was never about a car.

And then I just had another PowerPoint that had eight bullet points that would pop up

as I hit the button.

And it was all the reasons why Gary Bird would believe that he was being set up to be killed.

And that this, and these are all things I'm approving the case.

And so I gave like a long opening and just laid out like, here's all things you're here.

He, he cooperated.

He was stabbed and beaten prison.

She slid in his DMs.

I just gave like a summary of the whole case, which, you know, and like, and by the time

I sat down, like everybody was pumped, right?

Like the marshals, the, the court security that they were now putting their names in to

be in this trial doing security.

They're like, this is what's up.

And you said slid into the DMs in your opening statement.

Oh no, I don't think I, I don't think I use that language.

I think I, I think I probably just said, I probably just said she started messaging him

before he left prison.

I don't, I don't think I use that slang in the opening.

I do.

I use more slang than most lawyers.

I'm very slangy when I'm talking, but I don't, yeah, I can't say I said that.

All right.

So you got everyone hooked.

You know, that's a way better story.

She brought him there to be killed by other gang members.

That's what jurors want to hear about.

This is the crime they hear about on television, gang murders and gangs and murders and guns

and whatever, you know, just, but him just going crazy randomly.

That's kind of, that's not, there's no fun.

That woke them up.

They were ready to hear what happened.

Yeah.

So that was very smart.

Oh yeah.

It was a fun opening to give because we actually had a lot to work with.

And I knew I was bringing the homicide detective from Natchez.

I was bringing, I had subpoenaed the other cop from Natchez who was on the phone with him.

You know, I had my cell phone expert, like I was ready.

This is coming down to who's, who's going to tell the better story.

And I think you have the better story here.

So, and you got the better, you got the evidence to back it up.

So let's start off though, with the boring story.

Tell us about the people's case.

All right.

Well, so they, um, they started the case by calling a couple officers who were, who responded

to the victim on the side of the road.

They introduced their body cameras, um, who, uh, which, which basically showed that she was

injured, that she was found on the side of the road.

But that also introduced her statement, right?

So right off the bat, everyone knows she's lying.

Yeah.

She's like saying this hitchhiking thing.

And so, you know, my cross to these guys is really simple.

I was like, Hey, look, she had life threatening injuries, right?

For all you know, she was going to die.

She had been shot through the chest.

Her lung was collapsed.

So like that could be a dying declaration.

That's the point I was making with the first cops.

And in that dying declaration, she told, now those cops don't know if it's a lie.

I'm like, she told you it was a hitchhiker.

She didn't even know who it was, right?

The cop's like, yeah, that's what she told me.

Yep.

Um, the other thing that was the first kind of error, I think for the government in that

first witness is they introduced the body cameras of the police officers who were responding

on the side of the road.

And I know because I had all their exhibits, there were, there were censored and uncensored

body cameras.

In other words, like, um, as they're doing life-saving measures, the victim is exposed

on the side of the road.

Um, you know, and so they had an edited or a censored version of the video that had like

blurs put around the victim's, you know, chest and stuff.

So it was, she wasn't obviously exposed as you watch the video, but they introduced the

wrong one at trial.

So played in open court, um, and from the jury and all is the poor victim being exposed on

the side of the road while they're ripping all their clothes off to, you know, and yeah.

And the prosecutor like realize it too late.

And so like, we're off the bat, like they're like not on a good, they didn't start off good.

So that's how they start the case.

They call the, the first cops to, to talk about that.

Um, so you've established that she's a liar with their first witnesses.

Yeah.

Well, I established what she said there, you know, the jury's going to find out that she's

lying when they, you know, well, I guess they know she's lying cause they know she

knows Gary.

Yeah.

Oh, cool.

So, um, so then to my surprise, they call the victim next.

An interesting fact about the victim is that the week before the trial, she tried to not

be a witness.

And so, um, we had to have a hearing with the court where, um, the, the prosecutor was informing

the court that they had received some notices from the victim that she was too sick to testify

and that they, and that they want to just know that like, they're going to make her come

testify, that they were basically going to compel.

So I knew going into trial, she did not want to be there.

She was not like an eager witness.

I don't know all the behind the scenes, right?

But it sounds to me like she was compelled to be there in some fashion, right?

Um, so they called her own lawyer.

She did not have a lawyer.

Um, and so she, or certainly not that I was made aware of her, the court was made aware

of.

And so, um, so she comes to testify and she's a well put together, dressed well.

Um, but she clearly doesn't want to be there.

Um, and it's clear when she's going through the direct that she doesn't want to be there

and their direct of her is really short, which even just shows more weakness to me.

Shows they're really worried about her answers, but, but right off the bat, they made a mistake.

Um, they decided because I'd given them the cell phone exhibit, right?

They had all her, all the calls from her phone.

They decided to introduce that exhibit through her.

So they came to me like right before and said, Hey, we're going to introduce your exhibit.

You got a problem with that?

And I'm like, fuck no, man.

Fuck.

I want it in there.

And so they introduced it through her to give her, I guess, a chance on their direct to go

through some of the calls and explain it, but they had not, it didn't appear like they

had prepped her.

So she blurts out on direct that those GTL calls were from her boyfriend in prison.

Now I wasn't sure I was going to be able to prove that.

I wasn't sure that I could prove that she had this boyfriend in prison who was, uh, in

prison for murder because she's the person who I think could confirm that other than my

client, my client could spit, you know, he could say it, but like I was, I was, I was

nervous about even asking that question because I thought she might just deny it.

Cause remember when I asked her about it in our interview, that's when she locked up.

And so I was like, I didn't know if I was going to ask it.

I didn't, you know, but they, they, they asked her about it.

She's like, that's my boyfriend.

Yeah.

He in prison.

Right.

And so I was like, Oh, well shit, I got it now.

So that was a tactical error, I think on their part.

Um, and then she tells her version of the shooting, which is just that he freaked out.

He wanted to go home.

He thinks people out to get him.

He just crazy.

Um, he, he grabbed her gun out of her purse from the backseat and started hitting her with

it and shot her.

That's that's her version.

And that, and that's it.

It was like short and simple kind of direct.

And so in my cross, um, I wanted to establish a couple of things.

I wanted to make sure she knew that I knew everything she told Patricia, my investigator.

So that way she would know she can't disagree with me and that I know everything.

And I also want to establish that the detective in Baton Rouge, the one who interviews her

at the hospital had never contacted her again after that interview.

Um, and why I thought that was important is the government's whole theme was like, we're

here for the victim.

We're here for the victim.

But I knew from when we interviewed the victim, like after she was talked, after she left that

hospital, no one had ever called her again from BRPD, from the U S attorney's office from

nowhere.

So they must've just gotten in touch with her like the month before trial.

Okay.

And so I want to establish that no one had been doing that.

So I get up and I say, Hey, after you were interviewed in the hospital, when was the next

time anyone from the police department or this prosecutor or that prosecutor, any of these

people ever talked to you?

And she was like a month ago.

I was like, okay.

So like two and a half years have gone by and not one of them ever reached out to you.

See how you're doing and check on you.

I was like, but I reached out to you, right?

My investigator reached out to you and you remember that.

And I use the exact date, you know, on this exact date, Patricia interviewed you and you

told her all about what happened.

Right.

And then I got on the video with you and I interviewed you and you told me all about

what happened.

Right.

And so she's like, yes, yes, sir.

And so then I just started going through and she admitted almost every fact, but she crossed

her shoulder or her arms and she leaned back and like clearly didn't want to be there.

And she just decided that she was going to say correct for everything I said.

So I told Gary story, you know, she didn't admit she, she didn't change what happened in

the car.

She still says he pulled a gun and shot her, but she admitted to all the other facts, the

shooting car, the car in the parking lot, the phone calls.

And I don't, when I'm showing her the phone call record, she admits that's her boyfriend.

She said his name.

She said he's in prison for, you know, I said murder.

And she was like, it was attempted murder.

I was like, Oh, there's also a moment that becomes.

I think important to the jury later where my client always called the victim a G queen.

He would always from day one.

He's like, she a G queen.

She's not, this ain't some normal person.

And a G queen is like a female member of the gangster disciples.

So remember her boyfriend's a gangster disciple.

So she's like a female member of that gang.

They call them G queens.

I learned.

So when she's on the stand, you know, I just had randomly put in somewhere as I'm going

through all these yes, sirs and corrects.

I'm like, Hey, uh, you know what a G queen is, right?

And like her face kind of dropped and she kind of looked around and she was like, yes.

I was like, you're a G queen.

She's like, I ain't, I ain't no G queen or something like that.

And I will tell you many people who were in the courtroom remember this moment for some

reason, staff, security people were like, Oh, the second, the second you asked her about

G queen, everybody knew that she was a G queen, you know, is apparently what happened.

So, um, so that's, so that's her cross.

I ended the cross this way.

I wanted her to tell the jury what happens to snitches.

And, and my theory was it gives, it gives the jury a reason to, to be okay with her lying.

Right.

She can't come in there and say she was setting Gary up.

Then she, she's dead next.

Right.

So I wanted her, so I wanted to make her say her bullshit lies.

And then at the end I'm like, all right, now look, you know, you know what happens if

you come in here and talk about the gang today.

Right.

You say you ain't a G queen, but you know what happens.

And she was like, and I was like, your life's in jeopardy, right?

You could be killed or shot or stabbed.

Right.

And she's like, yes, yes.

And I was like, so that's kind of how I ended the cross was kind of like leaving that

sort of implication for her.

So that's very smart.

Did the, what was the prosecutor's redirect like?

Which, did he try to like establish anything stupid or was it hard, you know, was he just

like, no, no questions, no questions.

I don't want to touch her.

Get her out of here.

You know?

No, no, he redirected.

But I mean, it was so clear to everybody that she didn't want to be there that like,

you know, he probably shouldn't have, but he, you know, he did the thing where, you

know, he was like, look, Mr. Talbot asked you about these phone calls with your boyfriend.

And like, what were y'all talking about?

Oh, just boyfriend, girlfriend things.

Like, you know, like just kind of like threw her a couple of softballs to let her explain.

You know, I mean, like, did you, you know, did you, were you, I think he like directly

asked her probably like, did you, did you bring Gary to be killed?

And she's like, no.

Like, did you, you know, I think he like asked her those couple of things, but it was clear

she didn't want to be there anymore.

So I think like, did she explain why she said it was a hitchhiker at first?

Okay.

So she says on direct, they had prepped her for this.

She says that she was embarrassed and scared.

And so she says that she was like, I guess, embarrassed that whatever she had been shot

by her boyfriend, but she also was scared.

Yeah.

She was so scared.

That's what she says.

But, but she admitted she lied.

Like in my cross, I had a whole section where it's like, I made her listen to her statement.

I'm like, that is a bold face lie.

Right.

So you're capable of lying.

You're a liar.

Okay.

That's a lie too.

Right.

Cable lying.

Right.

Okay.

That's a dying decoration.

If you die on the side of the road, the last thing they hear is a lie.

Right.

And she, she said yes to all that.

You know, so I got her to, you know, to, to say she didn't fight much.

If I mean, that's after this witness that the case has got to, got it.

It's just downhill for the defense.

I'm not saying that I'm sure it was, you did a lot, but like if, if the victim, the alleged

victims coming into court doesn't want to be there, the jurors aren't connecting with

that victim, the prosecution's case is done at this point.

Yeah.

And, and I, and I will tell you, we, we learn later from a, you know, we hear from a juror

later about the case.

And, and that is a sentiment that was expressed that like it was her, her testimony was the

biggest thing in the case.

Gary's testimony sealed the deal.

But her testimony was, was the big, was the big part of the case.

All you have to do now is just be a little credible.

I just have to not fuck it up, David.

You just have to be a little more credible than.

No, David, I just have to not fuck it up.

That's it.

Just don't fumble.

Don't fumble.

You know.

As my, as my Apple watch was giving me like blood pressure alarms, like the whole week

of trial, I just was trying to not fuck it up.

Yeah.

All right.

So what happens next in the prosecution's case?

So now, you know, they, they go through all the evidence, um, witnesses.

I don't think a lot of them mattered.

You know, they call it ballistics people.

You know, I will tell you there was a dispute over which gun was shot in the car.

And I always kind of thought this was dumb, but you know, the victim said that she, that

she, that Gary pulled the pink gun and that's any, and he shot it into the floorboard and

then shot her.

And Gary's version is that both guns were pulled, that she pulls the pink, it's shot into

the floor.

Then she pulls the purple.

The purple is the one that shot her.

And so interestingly, they call this bullet.

I would have stipulated all this stuff, by the way, but they want to put on their case.

So they call a ballistic guy and wouldn't, you know, the purple gun is the gun that shot

her and that is his version.

It's not hers.

Right.

And so, um, so they call that.

And so that's just the point I'm making with him.

Um, they call a DNA person who testifies that both of their DNAs were found in the car,

but that on the, on the purple gun, only her DNA was found.

And you know what I mean?

Like I argued like, Hey, that me, that supports that.

She was handling the gun that night.

It doesn't support her version, supports his version.

But I don't know that.

I mean, I didn't think any of that mattered.

It's all kind of photograph witnesses.

The ER doctor testified like, but I didn't, I didn't feel like any of those things mattered

until the homicide detective, right?

So he was kind of one of their big witnesses.

And so this would be the guy that handled the entire investigation and went and interviewed

the victim in the, in the hospital room where he tells her, we know, you know, the guy who

bungled the investigation.

A hundred percent.

Right.

And so this was wonderful, right?

This was a, I hear what Lauren said.

Sorry.

I said, you mean the guy who bungled the whole investigation?

I mean, this is the guy who didn't get her cell phone.

Yeah.

Who let her take her car back with his cell phone in it.

Who didn't get the 911 call.

I mean, we can go down the whole list, but he messed this up big time.

Yeah.

You could have did my cross, Lauren.

That's exactly what it was.

So he just got up and embarrassed him.

He got up and showed the jury that he was shit at his job.

Yeah.

I mean, look, he, he never even went to the hotel.

I mean, when she's on the side of the road on the body camera, she says the name of the

hotel they just left.

He never even goes there.

He doesn't get to their surveillance there.

There's records of them staying there.

I got the records that showed she rented the room, but by then it was too late to get phone

records from the hotel room.

What about surveillance records that would have shown the car in the parking lot?

Like he doesn't forget any of that.

What about, what about videos from the Mississippi river bridge?

Doesn't get any of that.

911 calls missing.

And he's the guy who testified at the state hearing that there was a 911 call.

So, so when I'm, when I'm questioning him, a big issue arises where I'm like, Hey,

Gary called 911 right after the shooting.

And he was like, I, I don't know.

And so then I had to impeach him with his state.

I was like, why is he not prepped to answer that better by the prosecutor?

So I didn't teach him with his state PE testimony.

And then he admits like, yep, yep.

That yeah.

Okay.

I did test.

Yep.

There was a 911 call.

Like, you know, unforced error.

He also, um, another thing happens in his cross, which was, you know, just me taking advantage

of, I think, uh, uh, error by the prosecutor is in the prosecutor's exhibits.

There was a Google earth view that showed the Mississippi river bridge and the hotel.

So, you know, I mean, you could show it to a witness and you could see the path that they

drove before the shooting happened, except on their exhibit, they had the wrong hotel on

there.

Like they didn't even, they hadn't even figured out what the correct hotel was that they were

staying at right before they left.

And so they, I think they realized it like in trial.

So they didn't introduce it through the homicide detective.

So when I got up, I introduced it and I was like, you made this exhibit, you know, he's

like, yeah, I can see the prosecutor, like, like grabbing his head cause he knows where

I'm going.

I'm like, okay, well, I was like, I'm introducing it.

And now how's the prosecutor going to object?

He made it, you know?

And so like, he's like, I don't object.

And so I showed it to him.

I'm like, yeah, that's not even the right hotel, right?

Like, so that's proven.

That's how I know you never went there.

You didn't go there and interview nobody.

You didn't do any of this investigation.

And then he admitted that after that night, when he interviews the victim while she's doped

up, getting life-saving treatment, she's changing her story from the lie to the new lie, that

he never called her again.

I'm like, you never followed up.

You didn't want to interview her when she wasn't on life-saving narcotics?

He's like, and I think he ended up saying something like, I should have did that.

Like, he just started saying, like, I should have did that.

I should have, you know?

Hey, got a good point there.

I feel like it's just, in my mind, I feel like when we're dealing with the feds, like,

I mean, this is the United States government, right?

You are defending your client against the United States government.

In my mind, I just feel like their cases are always tighter.

They're well, like, there's just, you know, these sort of bonehead bumbling things only

happen in state court.

And yet, here in federal court, you're, like, impeaching them on the stupidest stuff because

they don't know their case.

And it's just like, is this just everywhere?

Is this just America?

Everywhere.

Every level of-

Law enforcement officers everywhere.

I saw criminal justice system.

I mean, I will say this.

This is a state-investigated case, right?

So, the police officers are local cops.

So, this wasn't, like, an FBI investigation.

And so, it is true that in a lot of our trials, all of the investigators are federal agents, and

they generally are pretty buttoned up and do things by the book and document things correctly.

And, you know, but, you know, I don't know if you know a lot about Baton Rouge, right?

But, Baton Rouge is a very high-crime city.

And so, the feds in Baton Rouge pull in a lot of, like, local violent crime to the federal

court to try to help, in their minds, stem the crime problem.

So, we get a lot of cases in Baton Rouge that are really just state street crimes with 22-year-old

cops who were scared to death.

And so, we get to have some of that fun.

What was I going to say?

Was it time for your case now, the prosecute arrest after this homicide detective?

Yeah.

So, the last part of the government's case, so their last three witnesses are Mississippi

witnesses.

And so, they call some guy who, I'll be honest with you, I, like, wasn't super prepared for

this.

But, they call some guy who apparently was a bystander at the gas station.

Apparently, he was just, we learned at trial, apparently he, like, worked there in, like,

some sort of part-time capacity, just cleaning up the outside.

So, he was just hanging around outside at two in the morning.

And so, you know, he gets up there, and I guess he's just there to establish what, that

he saw Gary pull in and saw him walk in with a gun.

I don't know.

I'm not sure why that guy was needing to be a witness.

Because I knew they were calling the clerk, right?

So, this guy gets up there, and he's, like, an elderly guy.

He's not understanding the prosecutor's questions.

He doesn't seem prepared.

He seems confused.

And then he says this.

He says, wait a minute.

Are you talking about before all the shooting happened?

Like, he says that in the answer to a question.

So, I'm like, objection!

Because, remember, all that's excluded, right?

We can't talk about the officer-involved shooting.

And so, we approach the judge, and the judge is upset.

I'm upset, and I'm, in my mind, trying to figure out, like, is this a mistrial?

Like, the jury just heard that there was a shooting at the gas station in Mississippi.

Like, how the fuck do I explain that?

And then not think, Gary shot somebody.

He shot somebody in Baton Rouge.

You know what I mean?

Like, so, I remember, like, so we have this, like, this conference with the judge.

And I just thought, like, in the moment, I was like, and the prosecutor was very apologetic.

It wasn't intentional, right?

And so, I was like, this jury needs to be told he didn't shoot anybody in Mississippi.

Right.

And the judge was like, I think that's appropriate.

And so, she was like, and she's smart.

So, in the moment, she was like, this is what I'm going to say, government, listen to me.

I'm going to tell, I'm going to, right now, I'm going to instruct the jury.

You are instructed that Gary never fired a weapon in Mississippi.

And I was like, hell yeah.

That's, I'll take that.

So, then she does.

She immediately says that to the jury.

And then the government just kind of, like, gets rid of this witness.

Like, you know, he can't, he can't be trusted.

And then they call, you know, a couple other government, a couple other Mississippi witnesses,

the clerk, who just says Gary was making no sense and out of control.

And they call the sheriff from Mississippi who says he responded to the scene and that new fact, right,

and that there was a 911 call that Gary made in Woodville, Mississippi,

before he entered the gas station where he's raving like a lunatic, okay?

And so, we hadn't talked about that, right?

I knew about this 911 call.

It's, like, 30 seconds long.

And it sounds like a butt dial, but you can hear Gary saying,

all right, I'm about to roll up on these fools.

Like, let's ride.

It's ride or die.

Like, let's ride.

Let's ride.

Let's ride.

Like, that's what he's saying.

It sounds like someone who's starting to lose their grip on reality.

So, they introduced this.

This was unexpected to me.

I knew about the phone call.

I had it.

So, they call the sheriff who comes in and says,

that sounds like a person who's, like, on something or out of their mind.

So, like, they end with the implication that he's on something, which, like, pissed me off, man.

You can't just testify to that.

What's the point of it?

You can't just testify to that.

A sheriff can't just go and be like, hey, that sounds like someone who's under the influence of something.

You can't testify to that.

He didn't.

He wasn't even the guy that received the 911 call.

So, like, you know, I lodged a bunch of different objections, but it all came in.

So, that's kind of how they rested.

And I remember thinking, man, like, I hope that didn't have an effect on the jury because he does look like he's on something in the video.

But remember, at this point, the jury's not seeing the video, okay?

The government rests without the video being played because of our, like, agreement, our loose agreement before the trial with the judge's kind of involvement that they could introduce certain facts about the gas station, but that they weren't going to show the video, okay?

So, that's how we end the government's case.

All right.

So, time for the defense then.

All right.

So, now I start the please don't fuck up phase of the case, right?

And so, I start with the cell phone expert.

So, I put him on the stand.

It's kind of funny.

His exhibit is introduced already.

Like, the entire purpose of me paying this guy to, like, fly to Louisiana and testify was to make sure I could get this exhibit in.

The government admitted it for me.

But I did get him in there to explain it all, explain how he made it, explain what all the things mean, and all this kind of stuff.

And I also had him look at the raw data on the stand and point out there was, like, a third-party call, I mean, a three-way call that the victim testified about that I didn't have on our exhibit.

So, I had him basically explain some of the stuff the victim had said and show that, like, what she's talking about is on there.

This is the cell phone expert.

Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so this is the –

That was your first witness.

Yeah, my first witness was a cell phone expert because I had already prepped him to be there and paid for him to be there that day because I thought I was going to have to introduce the exhibit.

So, I put him up there, and he does fine.

The government really doesn't have a good cross on him because, whatever, the records are the records.

And so, then I go with Gary next, right?

And so, I had spent a lot of time preparing Gary.

Always there, wrecking.

And, I mean, I felt like I had spent so much time with him that him and I were just on the same page.

We were conversational.

We had run – we had, you know – we had, like, not – you know, I don't script anything, but we had just, like, loosely run through his testimony a bunch of times.

So, I felt good about it.

And he was not nervous.

I mean, he kind of said, like, it's the truth.

How do you fuck up the truth?

And I was like, well, no, no, no, no, no.

You know, so – so, he gets up there.

He tries, Gary.

Yeah.

So, he gets up there and tells his whole story.

The same thing I've told you.

He gets up there and tells it through my direct.

It's really conversational.

He goes through – you know, he even gets emotional a couple times.

He talks about catching feelings for the victim and believing that she died and, like, how that made him feel.

And then I really have him, like, talk about, like, what it felt like in that two – hour and a half, two hours between the shooting and when he shows up at Mississippi.

Because I really wanted him to, like, just express how – like, what it felt like to think that you're going to die.

Like, you're going to get in a shootout and die.

And he did a good job of explaining how fearful he was.

And he also was, like, really honest about the details, you know.

So, he wasn't like, you know, there was one car that was a four-door sedan that was chasing me, right.

He's like, this is what I could see about the car.

I couldn't see faces, but I could see that there were two figures, like – and when I would ask him for more details, sometimes he'd be like, I don't – that's all – that's what I saw, you know.

And so, I think that was really helpful for him to be honest about the details and stuff.

And so, unfortunately, I ended right at the end of the day.

So, like, that's, like, worst-case scenario to leave the prosecutor the entire evening to go back to his office with all of his good colleagues and all, and they just build a whole thing.

But it just – it's just how it worked, man.

I tried my best.

And, in fact, I ended a little early, but as soon as I ended, you know, it might have been four or something, the prosecutor said, look, judge, there's a legal issue I'm about to raise.

And I think it's going to take a while, so why don't we let the jury go home?

I was like, you son of a bitch, that's pretty – that's pretty smart.

And so, here was the legal issue.

They were like, oh, he totally opened the door to all the Mississippi stuff, right?

Like, oh, now we get to introduce all this stuff from Mississippi, all that video.

Like, not the shoot, not the cop shooting, but that we get to do all this because, Judge, he has got up here and said that, like, he was reasonable.

He was scared for his life.

He was making these decisions.

And that video shows otherwise, and he also, like, he talked about, like, what he was thinking when he got to the gas station, and he says he put the guns on the mat, but, like, you know, it didn't really happen in the sequence that he said it happened in.

So, like, we could do impeach him on all this kind of stuff.

And the judge looks at me, and it's like, that's the danger of calling your client, Mr. Talbot.

And I'm like, whoa, hold on.

Like, I didn't – yeah, I disagree.

Like, so –

Right.

You – I mean, how much of the gas station stuff did you get into on directs?

I'm sure you're trying to –

Almost none.

Avoid that happening.

Yeah.

I mean, I had a prepared, like –

What did he say on direct?

So, all he says on direct is, I pulled up the gas station.

Flashers are on.

I left the car in drive.

It touched the front.

I went inside.

I asked for help.

I said, call the police.

I said that I had killed someone.

These are her guns.

That's her car.

That's her whatever.

These are all things that had already come out.

You know, by the other witnesses.

And then I put the guns on the front.

So, I thought I had perfectly not opened the door.

I mean, I like – obviously, I spent a ton of time preparing those exact questions.

And so, I'm arguing with the judge, and the judge is like – she's smart.

She's like, what exact exhibits do you want to get in government?

And they listed four exhibits, and I looked at them, and three of them I wasn't really worried about, if I'm being honest with you.

And I was like, let us have a minute to talk, judge.

So, I go tell the prosecutor here.

I'm like, whatever.

Like, some of these exhibits were some other statements, you know, like parts of his statement that hadn't come in yet.

One of them was like – was a transcript of the 911 call that I was telling you that the sheriff talked about.

There was like a transcript of it where he sounds kind of raving mad.

I was like, whatever.

I don't really care about that.

And then I was – then this is where the minute and a half became important.

And I was like, I'll agree to the first minute and a half of the video.

And that answers everything they're talking about, judge.

And judge was like, sounds reasonable.

And the prosecutor was like, all right.

So, we agreed to the minute and a half, and we agreed.

There was one exhibit they wanted that I didn't want to come in.

It was someone else's statement about something, and she didn't let it in.

So, like, breathe a sigh of relief.

Like, all right, I've stuck to the minute and a half of the video.

So, anyway, so we go home that night, but I started thinking about this issue in my head all night that freaked me out.

And the issue was, like, Gary doesn't know that they're about to show him the video.

And I have instructed him, like, very specifically not to talk about a whole bunch of stuff from Mississippi because of the court's ruling and because I didn't want to open the door.

So, now I was worried.

He's about to be shown evidence that I didn't show him on direct and ask questions that I've told him not to answer.

And I was worried, like, oh, God, what if he, like, looks at me and, like, doesn't answer, and it looks like he's hiding something or is being deceptive.

So, I wanted to tell him that.

But there are rules about, like, talking to a witness who's on the stand.

And how those rules apply to your own client is not really –

Even when it's your own client?

Those rules are not real clear, Lauren.

I did legal research that night.

There was, like, a Supreme Court case on it.

I remember thinking that the answer was as clear as mud, that, like, you obviously can talk to your client, but you're not supposed to delve into anything about their testimony.

But that's exactly what I wanted to talk about because I needed to tell him about the court's ruling, right, that had happened since he got on the stand.

And so I remember thinking, like, I'm going to ask the court.

I'm going to, like, raise it with the judge and tell the judge I want to – I don't know.

I just felt like that was the best idea is to tell the judge that I'm going to go instruct him of this exact thing.

This is what I'm going to tell him so he understands the ruling so that way he knows he can answer the prosecutor's questions.

And that way no one could ever say I coached him or something, right?

That's what I thought in my head.

So in the morning we go to court.

Like, judge, I got a little issue before you bring the jury in, right?

Like, and I said exactly what I just told you.

Like, I need to go tell him about the ruling.

I didn't want anyone to think that I was, like, coaching him on what to say, but he needs to understand that kind of the rules of evidence of what he can say has changed.

And the judge said, are you asking me if you can be ethical?

I was like, well, no, like, I'm going to be ethical.

I just – I'm just trying to be cautious, right?

I'm just – I want to let everybody know I'm about to go out there and tell him this, and I just want to make sure everybody was okay with what I'm doing.

And she's like, you don't need the court's permission to be ethical.

I was like, oh, okay.

And so I went in there and told him.

And I remember feeling really, you know, feeling like I misread that situation.

But I was able to tell him, and so –

You know, you never know, though.

I mean, you know, some prosecutor whose case is going downhill might just start accusing you of things because that's what they do when they start losing.

I've experienced that before, and I mean, you just never know.

So it's not a bad idea just to put it out there, so.

Yeah, well, I'll tell you my real fear.

My fear was the – one of the prosecutors' first question is, did you talk to Mr. Talbot after yesterday in court?

And then what, I have to object in front of the jury?

Like, you know, so I was worried about that.

But anyway, so the cross is not bad.

Like, you know, I didn't breathe for like three hours, but Gary did so good.

You know, the prosecutor goes through his criminal history like in depth, but I had gone through that with Gary on direct because his criminal history is a part of his defense, right?

And so – and the prosecutor like goes through his criminal history, and Gary, bless his heart, is just so honest and like forthcoming.

So when the prosecutor's like, so you went and did this thing.

You're a gangbanger.

You – you all hurt people.

And he was like – he'd be like, yes, sir, I'm not proud of that.

But yes, sir, I did that.

That's right.

I did that when I was in the gang.

Yes, sir.

I'm not – yes, sir.

I mean just like brutally honest.

And then the prosecutor did this thing where he would restate Gary's defense incredulously.

And I don't know why that's a good – they think that's a good tactic.

But they were like, so, you know, she pulled two guns in the car?

And it just gives them a chance to be like, yeah, it shocked me too.

You know, she pulled the pink, then the purple, you know?

Like, you know, and he'd be like, where'd she pull them from?

He's like, I can't figure that out.

It was close to her somewhere, but I don't know where she pulled them from.

Hell, I didn't even know they were there, you know?

Like, I wish I knew that.

You know, so like – so there was kind of like that back and forth.

The thing is, there's two guns.

There's pictures.

There's a video of him holding two guns.

There's not just – we know there's two guns.

There's evidence of two guns.

Yeah.

And then the prosecutor tried to nitpick, like, some small details, which that's a cross-strategy, right?

And so – and the details had to do with the car that he saw in – both in Natchez at the gas station and then in the hotel parking lot.

And, you know, the prosecutor goes to this thing and he's like, was it four-door or two-door?

And, you know, Gary would be like, I think it was four-door.

He's like, okay.

Like, late model?

Like, you know, how many – you said you saw – you said it was a shooting car.

Okay, like, what color was it?

And Gary would be like, man, it's like tan?

Like, okay, how many – like, where were the people sitting?

He'd be like, man, I don't – I can see like three figures, but I can't see their face.

Like, the windows are tinted, man.

Like, I don't – you know, like – and so, like, he – and then was it one car or two cars when you were getting chased?

It was one car or two cars?

And he's like, man, I know it was one car.

There was, like, another car at some point, but I don't know if that was part of them.

I don't know if that was the dudes.

But, you know, and so – oh, so you don't even know if it's two cars or one car.

You don't even know what model car it was, you know.

And then Gary says something that is wonderful.

He goes, dude, I've been in prison six and a half years before this happened.

I don't even know the new makes and models of the cars.

Like, I don't know what it was, you know.

Fair point.

I was like, oh, God, you know.

And so – and then the prosecutor's arrest.

So Gary testified well.

And then who testifies next for the defense?

Yep, I put up his brother who is on the phone call with – receives a bunch of the phone calls after the shooting.

And he's on a three-way call with Gary when Gary talks to the Natchez Police Department.

And so I call him just to have another verification that Gary called the police, right, after the shooting.

Great.

And so I put him up.

All right.

And then he corroborates that.

And then I call the most – to me probably who's the most powerful witness, which is the Natchez homicide detective.

And he comes in full suit, full suit, badge, big, tall, imposing figure, and sits down and just gives me everything I want.

And he says, yep, he testified.

The guy he testified is dangerous.

The other testifier has been killed.

And then I go through this thing where, like, you found him credible.

He's like, yes.

Everything Gary Bird told me was true.

I found him credible.

That's why I used him in the case.

And then, you know, I think I might have said something like, you know, you're not like Gary's friend, right?

You're not here to help him.

He's like, no, I'm a police officer, right?

Like, I don't know anything about what happened down here in Baton Rouge, but I'm just telling you he cooperated.

You know, so he did great.

He's just wonderful.

And the cross was terrible of him.

I don't – there were – I think the prosecutor was – I maybe didn't expect that that was going to happen.

And so all the cross did was give the guy more chance to talk more about that murder.

And the murder was brutal that he testified and cooperated against.

And so it just allowed more details to come out, details that I didn't even ask about because I thought they might be objective.

Reactionable.

And so then that's how we rested.

And the government did not put on a rebuttal.

And, like, how has Gary been during the whole trial?

Like, how long has this trial been?

Like, two weeks, three weeks?

So we're – no, no.

We're on Thursday.

We're Thursday evening when everybody rests.

So just four days.

One week.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

And it sounds like Gary was cool as a cucumber.

Yeah.

How was Gary?

Dude, he is so confident, man.

Yeah, I mean, going into closings and during deliberations, he's like, I'm not guilty, dude.

It's going to be all not guilty.

He is so –

I like that.

Now, he did so wonderful on the stand.

I know.

I know.

He did so wonderful on the stand.

He has the truth on my side, so it's going to be fine.

I know, man.

A lot of people have the truth on their side, and it ain't fine, though.

So I was – oh, my God.

I was so nervous.

Let's – without getting to like – don't rehash the whole case and the whole closing argument,

but just tell us about your closing argument and the connection.

Yeah, so in the closing, I said the same opening phrase as the opening, and then I said, you

know, when those words came out of my mouth on Monday, you all gasped.

I saw it, and you thought like, I thought this was a carjacking case, and it's not a

carjacking case, right?

This is a case about a gang-style attempted execution, and then I showed the PowerPoint

where I had –

It's never about the car.

Yeah, where it says, this was never about a car, and then the next slide, it's the same

slide from opening where it has those points, and then I was like, and wouldn't you know,

I proved every one of these, and I went through how I proved them, and then I added two more

at the bottom.

I was like, you see those two?

Those are new, because we didn't even know those until this week, and one of them was

the boyfriend in prison, and there was another one, and so – and then I said – and then

I went through all the problems with the government's case, that they didn't preserve all the evidence

and all these kind of things, and then I used something that I heard on A&G, and it was

about the fact that they didn't preserve her cell phone, right?

And so we don't know what the text messages say, and we don't know what the voicemails are,

because there were some voicemails from prison, we don't know what was said, right?

And so I did this thing, right, where I said, you know, if someone busts through the door

right now, and comes flying in here and says, stop the trial, we found her phone, and we

have the voicemails and the text messages, would you want to see them?

And I was like, everyone in here just said yes in their head.

But you know what? You'd say no if you didn't have reasonable doubt, because you wouldn't need

to see them if you were convinced they'd prove their case, but you'd want to see them.

You want to see them because there's reasonable doubt, but you also want to see them because

you know what they say. They say we post it up like a mailbox.

They say where the boy at, right? And so I use that kind of thing as a part of my closing.

And the other thing I'll say about the closing is, this was during COVID.

So we had all the COVID protections in the courtroom, and even the attorneys had to wear masks at

all times, even during questioning, even during closings, and actually filed a motion for me

to not wear a mask during closing, and it was denied. So I was delivering all this masked up,

and you know, maybe that's a good thing, hide my face, you know. But during closings, as I'm

given this closing, I keep making eye contact with that juror, the juror who I swear said I identify

as female, the one that was a teacher. And like, never in my career have I connected with someone

like I was connecting with this juror during closing. And she pulled her mask off, like broke

the rule, so I could see her whole face. And she was just, I mean, just nodding her head,

like, so into it that I just, I mean, I couldn't, I had to look away. I just was so getting my hopes

up by looking at this juror. And then there were other jurors too, that just like, they all seemed

to be like, nodded with me. And so like, I really had a good vibe at the end of the closing.

Nice, nice. That's always the best. Because it's definitely the worst when you know they're

not vibing with you.

Yeah, when they won't look at you.

That's when you really do, that's when you really start hitting the, hitting the, the

jury box. Um, that's great though.

That's why, that's why I need to be able to walk to the jury box, you know?

Yeah. And the jurors, when you said, and I'm going to steal something from another not

guilty, but a juror's nodding with you in that moment too, when you said another not

guilty, I thank you for the plug. I appreciate, we appreciate the plug. It's on the record.

A hundred percent. You know, somebody was like, big fan, you know?

Davey D. All right. All right. And I wish I, I wish I knew which one of your guests said

that so I could shout them out. But that was a wonderful thing I heard on your show.

Dude, that's not really another not guilty thing. That's an LA, that's an LA County hack.

That's an LA County hack right there. You know, like, it's been an LA County public defender.

That one's been around for a long time.

Yeah. That's, I was like a baby PD. Yeah.

Oh man. Well, we're behind the eight ball down here in the, in the bayou. All right.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you, I'm glad you used it.

Um, all right. So cool. Let's talk about jury deliberations then. Uh, how long were the,

was the jurors out for?

So they were out only out for two hours total. Um, and about an hour and a half in, yeah, about a,

things happen quick in federal court. Our trials don't, I mean, we, we roll through witnesses.

Obviously when you don't get to help pick a jury, you know, your jury's picked by lunch

on Monday every time. And so, uh, but yeah, the, the jury was out an hour and a half and

they sent a note. Um, and, and so, you know, the whole time I'm just sitting there with my

staff, not able to breathe, you know, because I really feel like I've won, but I felt like that

before and not. So, um, and this is what the note said. Okay. Um, the note said, we would like to

speak to the judge. We want clarification on possession of the weapon by a convicted felon.

What was the exception that would still make him not guilty? So we get the note. First of all,

I see that it's signed. Well, this must feel nice. Yes. I see that it's signed by the juror

who I was, who I thought was giving me good vibes. So like, and then when you listen to the question,

no one is talking about the defense on count three, if he's convicted on one and two,

I mean, if he's on, if he's convicted on one and two, the count three is a no brainer. He's guilty.

So like I read it. And so we're in court, right? We're sitting in court. The judge is reading

this note. The jury's not in there with us. And, uh, when I, when I saw who signed it and when I read

the note, like I kind of became emotional, like, cause like, it was the first moment where like,

I let myself think like, maybe we've done it right. Like maybe we've saved Gary. And so, um, and so,

you know, the judge sends back some answer, like look at the jury instructions, idiots or something.

Um, and like 15, 15 minutes later, there's a verdict. All right, cool. So tell us about the

reading of the verdict. Then we got three charges. Yeah, we got three charges. So the jury comes in

and you know, you're always like watching them as they come in. Like, and when they came in,

it was interesting. They were in little groups, almost like they were like had little buddy groups.

Um, and they seemed like pretty jovial. And there was, there was a guy on the jury who was like a

real, like buff white guy. And, um, and it, you know, I have, sometimes I have nicknames for jurors

during trials and I'd be kept calling him big swole. Cause he was like a big guy. And, uh,

I never got like great vibes from him throughout the trial. But as they're walking in for whatever

reason, he caught my eye and he looked like, he looked directly at me and he like nodded almost

like he was telling me like, I got you. And I was like, Oh fuck. Like, okay. So like, I look,

I'm trying to like keep it together. I'm not like a emotional lose it, but I put so much in this

case. And I really believed Gary, you know, his story's true. So then the judge reads the verdict.

And when she says not guilty on count one, like that's it. Like, I don't even care about the

rest. Like he can't be guilty on two. Um, and so I started big boy crying. I mean like

ugly grown man, ugly grown man crying. As soon as he said, not guilty on count one. And then it's

not guilty. Count two is not guilty. Count three. I'm crying. I'm like trying not to like be

embarrassing. Me and Gary are hugging. He's crying and the jury's crying. Right. They're

like hugging each other. Like these people, they're like celebrating like they had accomplished

something. It was like, it's unlike anything I've seen. And I've had wonderful verdicts

before. I mean like, like I swear one lady picked another lady up like in the air, like

in celebration. And like all the guys that, you know, didn't really like show me much emotion during

trial. Like they're all like, they're like, like holding their fist up to me. And it was just, it was,

it's the most incredible moment of my life really. Other than, you know, my kids being born. Like,

you know, it was, uh, it was, uh, it was unbelievable. What about, um, did the, did the judge have a

reaction at all? Or was stoic, you know, kept their, stoic, you know, she's pretty even keel. Yeah. Um,

I will tell you that I've heard from many marshals and court security officers who watched a lot of

the trial that like everyone knew it was gonna be not guilty. Like the marshals and I mean,

everybody like the whole week were like, that guy's not guilty. Like that guy's going to be

acquitted. The state case was still going on though. Right. So Carrie, I mean, Gary wasn't

released from court. Yeah. So this wasn't a, this wasn't a go home. Yeah. This was a immediate

release from federal custody back to state custody. And so then two things happened after the verdict,

right? One, um, this was a big L for the government, um, violent crime, high profile,

and they were upset over the ruling about the amphetamine. And so they thought, oh, well,

we'll just retry them in the state and that amphetamine will change the outcome. Right.

They also claimed that there were some jail phone calls that I'd never heard or saw and were never

turned over that they also thought would hurt his case, but they didn't know about them at the

federal trial. So, you know, I went, you know, my plan was to go meet with the state district attorney

and try to, you know, tell them how wild it is that you're going to let the guy be acquitted and

still think he's guilty. Right. Like what, what does that say to these 12 jurors? But before I could do

that, I received a letter in the mail from the jury foreperson. Um, and the letter was, uh, was, was

pretty interesting. So there's a couple of things that are weird about federal court. Let me ask you

this. So would you guys, can you guys talk to juries after your verdicts? Yes. Yes. Okay. That is

completely forbidden in federal court. In fact, like we were forbidden from talking to jurors at all,

um, in, in, in any circumstance, unless the judge has given us permission in the case. So I get a letter

from the foreperson unsolicited. Right. Um, and it says that, uh, you know, that this trial changed her

life. Um, and that she, uh, she like really had a lot of hope about the criminal justice system and

racial relations because of what happened in the trial. And she says a couple of things. And this letter

is now has now been made public. So I can talk about it. Um, she says the trial did, she said, uh, you

know, I wanted to commend you on your defense of Gary. It was interesting when we all got together to

deliberate. The women of color said they thought they'd have to convince the white women that Gary

was not guilty. The white teachers, two of us thought we'd have to convince the white men that Gary was

not guilty. But at the end of the day, only one juror got hung up with charge number three and changed

their mind. And so when I got this letter, I had to tell the court. Everybody was not guilty. Then

everybody was not guilty except for that one from the beginning. Yeah. On counts one and two for sure.

Just on one. Wow. Okay. Okay. And so I got permission from the court to reach back out to

the juror and meet with her. And, uh, and, and the one thing that, that she mentioned, which is really

similar to what she said in the, in the letter was that, um, you know, at the very beginning of

deliberations, like no one wanted to be the first one to say anything. And then a guy said, we can

all believe, we can all agree that the victim's a lying bitch. Right. And then everybody was like,

Oh my God, yes. Oh, Oh my God. Yes. And that kind of opened the, the floodgates that they all,

apparently they all believed Gary. They all believed him and they all believed that she was setting

him up. Leave it to the, leave it to the white guy to break the ice on the racial tension there.

Leave it to misogyny to just pay, pave the way. That lying bitch. Yeah. And so the, the,

the letter also says that she looked and saw that he was still in jail and that she was appalled

and that how can that, how can he still be in jail on the same charge in the state? So I sent that

letter to the district attorney, uh, and met with the district attorney to try to get them to,

to dismiss his case and they drug their feet for a year before they finally agreed to let

him plead to some lesser charge that gave him time served and, and sent him home. I mean,

how fucked up is that? Yeah. But why? So, cause his state level defense attorney was,

I guess probably needed time to get ready on the case. Well, why did it, why was he sitting

in custody and not just going to trial again? I mean, that's probably something for him and

his lawyer down in the state level to talk about or, you know. Yeah. Well, I think,

I think there was just like continuous hope that the state was just going to dismiss it and he wasn't

going to have to risk. Cause remember he had attempted murder charges and he had very serious

state charges. And so I think there was a lot of fear that with the amphetamine evidence,

he might not fare so well in state court. So there was hope that it could be resolved.

Um, and, and it was in, in a deal that I had nothing to do with, you know, it was resolved for some

minor plea that gave him time. By then he had like three years in, so he got time served.

Did that, so did Gary understand when he testified, talk about like not wanting to call the police

because of his ankle monitor and stuff like that? Yep. How did that come out?

Yep. He talked about that. He even, um, he talked about that. And also in the gas station video in

Mississippi, he's, he shows that in that first minute and a half, he's like, uh, you know,

call the police. They know where I'm at. And he like pulls his pant up and shows his ankle

monitor and says, I'm all, they know where I'm at. They could ping my location. They know,

call the police. So yeah. And yes, he does say that that's why he didn't call the police initially

from the, from the hotel.

Oh man. Well, this was quite the story. Wow. I'm like, I feel like, I'm going to just be thinking

about this case or this story for the rest of my night here. This, the way it's just marinated

my brain.

Yeah.

Oh man.

There's a lot of layers.

A lot going on here.

Dude, this is like the case. Is this a, I mean, this could be the case of a, of a lifetime,

a case of a career. I mean, this is such a crazy story. How do you feel? How do you feel

about this trial? How do you feel about this trial?

I mean, like, you know, it was, you know, y'all know from winning jury verdicts, you know,

there's nothing better than a jury validating the work you do and all that. And in this case,

then I get this wonderful letter from the lady, you know, and the letter is just filled with,

you know, you know, wonderful words to me about what I'm doing for a living and the impact I'm

making. And so like, oh yeah, like I, I fully expect that I, for always, this will be, you know,

forever, this will be my, my greatest achievement as a trial attorney. Cause it's just such a,

it was such a dangerous case to try. And there were so many things that had to go right for Gary.

And, but to his credit, you know, he all, he always, you know, told me the truth. Everything

he told me I could verify, you know, and yeah, it's a crazy, it's a crazy story with a crazy defense

and only a crazy motherfucker like you can defend him. So, so, so Dustin, you've been a public

defender. I think you said for 14 years, right? That's right. So you're, you're right in the sweet

spot. I think the, you, you peak at the, from 12 to 15 years, you're, you've experienced it all.

Oh God, don't say that. I think when you get about 25, 30 years in, you just, you kind of,

it's time to retire, but you're like at the sweet spot cause you, you're experienced, you know what

you're doing, but you still have that passion. You're not burned out, you know, like, um, so let's

talk about this. Uh, why tell the audience why you became a public defender? What brought you to this

life to this calling? Yeah. So, um, so when I was in law school, I, uh, I started to realize that I'm,

I live in the conservative South and I'm not conservative. Um, and as I started like looking

at things to do, uh, I got this public interest fellowship at LSU. That's where I went to school.

Um, that would pay me to go do public interest instead of work at a big law firm. And I had,

I was lucky enough to have good grades that I could go to a big law firm. And so I, uh,

I went to the federal public defender's office, my one L summer and, uh, and just like fell

in love. I was like, you know, Holy shit. Like this is like helping people. And then of course,

you know, as you know, as soon as you touch the criminal justice system, if you have any

empathy at all, you realize how fucked up it is and how it just, it totally crushes our fellow

citizens, especially our citizens of color. Um, and you know, I'm, I grew up a middle-class

white kid. Like I never suffered any of that injustice. And it was appalling to me that like

everyone doesn't fucking see it and everyone's not like screaming about it like all day.

Like how it just, it's just, it's just institutional. And so, um, and so like, I, it seemed like I was,

it seemed like my decision was made and you know what? I still went and worked at some big firms,

my 2L summer at the, at the request of my boss at the federal defender's office. He was like,

you need to go taste that, taste that life. And if you still want to do this, come see me. And I

definitely still want to do it. And, uh, I can't imagine doing anything else. Well, I'm glad you

came back, Dustin. I'm glad the big firm life didn't draw you in. Oh man, I would sit there

and have to work on some motion to make the share price of Exxon go up. And I would be thinking about

the people that I represented the, the semester before at the federal defender office. I mean,

I say represented, I was an intern, you know, but I'd be like, I wonder what's happening to that guy.

I wonder if he got out. I wonder, you know, what if he had, I wonder if his baby mama had the kid,

like, I wonder if he got to see him, you know? And so I, I was just like, I, this, that's what I'm

doing. Yeah. Well, Dustin, thanks for, uh, thanks for choosing this path. Thanks for reaching out to

another not guilty and being on the show and sharing your story. It was great having you. Uh, yes. And

Lauren, always good. Always good to see you. It's always a pleasure. Same, same, David D. All right,

Dustin, Lauren, watch out for those, watch out for those alligators when you're driving through the

water. Okay. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of another not guilty. Shout out to Daniel

Mark, original A&G theme music composer and Mike Grimm for the remix. And guess what? We'll be back in

two weeks with another not guilty straight from the trenches.