Grab 'Em By The Brewski – When a Bar Brawl Meets Dodger Blue

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Well, 'cause you got to. You have to, right? You're going to trial. I've gone to many crime scenes and it's funny 'cause I usually have my boyfriend come with me 'cause it's in sketchy parts of LA. But with this one, with the clerk, he was like, "No, I'm not going to the clerk."

I think I said in my closing, I was like, 'cause I had all the ladies, right? And I was like, "You guys, the beard's in. Guys have beards. Beards, the flannel, the jeans, the shoes. It's a look. My guys got it. The security guard walking in had it. Beards are in, right? This isn't like, I don't know, clean shave '90s. Like, this is 2019. Suddenly it's like, you know, one or two in the afternoon and it's like, okay,

we have a verdict. And that is my worst fear 'cause I'm here to hang a jury. Cannot handle a verdict. A verdict means he's probably found guilty and I cannot handle it.

It's season three of Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore, here along with my fellow public defenders, presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not-guilties public defenders get on a daily basis.

In an unjust criminal system.

With the deck stacked against us.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty.

All right. Welcome back. Another Not Guilty. Season three. Coming at you fresh. It's gonna be great.

I'm so happy to be back. So happy to be back. You know, I've been hearing so many comments, David. I'll tell you this right now.

People will be saying, "I've really missed you on a lot of episodes in season two. Where have you been? Did David fire you?"

A lot of questions about why I haven't been part of this. Happy to be invited back.

Okay, guys, look. I went on a little detour. The fans got upset. A lot of people wrote in. A lot of angry emails.

And unlike the prosecution, we're gonna give the people what they want.

And we're gonna bring in Nikhil to season three of Another Not Guilty.

I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. Hopefully, hopefully, you know, I don't disappoint.

So with us this week, we have an esteemed guest. Welcome to the podcast.

Fellow Public Defender Haley. Hello. How you doing?

I'm doing good. Thank you.

Thank you for being here. We heard that you may have had a recent Not Guilty.

I did. And it felt good because it's been a while. So...

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So let's start from the beginning then. What were the charges in your case?

So it was a battery with serious bodily injury because the guy, the victim, got stitches.

So I was already kind of like, "Uh-oh. This could be a felony when somebody gets really bad injury."

What did he allegedly do?

Punch somebody in the face.

Like, where? How did it go down? What did the police report read?

So the report reads, like, victim gets punched in the face.

He goes to grab a beer bottle from some guy who's out of control at the bar because they're in the club.

And the guy, the out-of-control person, is being escorted off of the dance floor.

And as he's being escorted off of the dance floor by a security guard, the victim went to go grab this out-of-control guy's beer bottle.

Okay. So something happens on the dance floor.

Yes.

Which makes security escort this guy out.

As security is escorting this guy out, your client being, I'm sorry, the victim being the good guy he is, tries to grab the beer bottle from this out-of-control guy who is being kicked out.

Exactly.

And then that's when he gets punched in the face by the guy.

That's being escorted out.

Okay.

So then security proceeds to escort this guy out.

But real quick, but right before, while the beer bottle is being taken out of the suspect's hand, the alleged assailant or batterer says, "Who the fuck do you think?"

Who the fuck are you, of course, is in quotes.

Who the fuck are you?

Yeah.

Quote.

Yeah.

Brilliant investigation so far.

In the police report, yeah.

Yeah.

Quote, quote.

Yeah, who the fuck are you?

This is an exact quote.

Paraphrasing.

Yeah.

Paraphrasing the drunkenness of this crazy out-of-control guy.

And then the security guard escorts this guy out.

Yeah.

So they escort him out and then he's gone.

He's in the wind.

They don't detain him.

They don't keep him there.

He's just, okay, kicked out of the club.

So then the report reads that as they're interviewing the victim outside of the club, the security guard says, "Hey, that guy in the Dodger jersey, that's the guy."

The security guard says that.

The security guard says that.

The security guard says that.

Because the police are called to the scene.

Yeah.

So as they're interviewing.

Yeah.

As they're getting a statement.

So literally the police report reads, "As I'm interviewing the victim, they pointed out the guy, later identified as my client, as the guy.

Oh yeah, he's in a white Dodger jersey.

That's the guy."

Okay.

So now where is the white Dodger jersey, your client, standing at this point?

Is he coming out of the club?

Is he?

He's walking.

He's just walking along the street, the same street as the club.

He's just walking by.

So real serial killer stuff.

He comes back to the scene.

Back to the scene.

Maybe.

He's like, "I punched this guy in a bar fight.

I get thrown out.

And now the police are here.

I'm just walking casually by."

Well, based off my own trading experience, sometimes when you get thrown out of bars, your friends are still in there.

And you're like, "Where do I fucking go?"

So the report, of course, is just client's name inserted into all these suspects.

It's like, "Oh, well, it was him."

And I'm like, "No, it wasn't.

This was a completely different person inside this bar who punched this guy in the face."

They let him go.

"My guy, he's just walking back in a white Dodger jersey looking for his cousin."

That's all he's guilty of.

Wrong place.

Wrong time.

Wrong guy.

And that's what your client told you when you met him, right?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

He's, yeah.

Did he say where he was coming from?

So client's story is, there's this huge brawl between, he's there with like 10 other people, there's another group that's in the VIP section, and then the security guards.

And there's just a brawl between security guards, the crazy VIP group, and his group of friends.

But I asked him, "But did you punch anybody in the face?"

"No, I didn't hit anybody."

"Did your beer bottle get taken?"

"Yeah, it did.

But I, it just got taken away.

That's all that happened."

And so he had one of his, only one of his friends was with him when his beer got taken away.

Okay.

Because we had to like narrow down that point in time, right?

Well, so your client, it's not like your client was just walking by, he was at this bar then.

Yes.

Exactly.

He was at the club.

Let's make sure we get, let's paint the scene appropriately.

We used the word bar, we used the word club.

Dance club.

It is a dance club.

Bar at the, you know, brawl at the bar.

But I want to know, is it more a divey bar?

Is it a dance club?

Is it a hybrid?

So the first floor is like the more restaurant area.

Okay.

And then the second floor is the club at night.

The clurb.

The clurb.

Of course it's the clurb.

And this all took place on the second floor?

This is all on the second floor of the clurb.

My jurors had been to the clurb when I asked like, "Hey, has anybody been here?"

They actually raised their hand.

Hold on, let's take this off the record.

Where did this happen?

Oh, okay.

I've been there too.

See?

People have been there.

It's a whole thing.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

I went on my first ever date in my entire life.

I've went to this place.

Like when I, first date I had like when I had a car.

Like when I had a ticket.

Girl out in my 1989 Camry.

This is where I took her to.

Right?

Downtown Long Beach.

Oh yeah.

Sevilla.

But going back to your thing.

Okay.

So in the clurb, there's a VIP section.

Your, your client and his friends.

And then the security in this three way, you know, brawl takes place.

This melee.

And then he's, then he's out of the club.

Then he's walking out.

Yeah.

The club evacuate when the cops come or.

So his group was like physically violently pushed like out of the club.

Like his group of friends have bruises and stuff.

It was a whole thing.

And so yeah, my guy, he's just walking back cause he can't find his cousin.

And then he gets detained, arrested.

And you know, thankfully he was super cooperative.

He just, he didn't, you know, mouth off to the cops or anything like that.

He was just super calm and chill.

And.

And then did the report say whether or not your client was drunk or not?

No, they had nothing in the report about my guy's intoxication.

No bloodshot, watery eyes.

Wow.

No, no like breathalyzer.

No breathalyzer.

No breathalyzer.

Standing, standing test.

Walk the line test.

No.

Um, was there a discrepancy or anything consistent between the description

of the suspect and your client?

Is the reason why they pointed your client out?

Latino man in a white Dodger Jersey in Los Angeles in October of 2018.

It was during the world series.

It was the NLCS.

It was the championship series.

We hadn't made the world series quite yet.

Literally that Friday night, they all went out on Friday.

The Dodgers had just lost to the Brewers in game one of the NLCS.

And I'm pretty sure I'm accurate on that.

I had the judge stipulated to that fact.

So I could argue it in front of the jury without having to call my bailiff up to testify

about the Dodgers schedule in October of 2018.

But that was the ID.

A Latino guy.

And by the way, my guy has a full beard.

There's no mention in any ID about him having a full beard.

Wow.

So it was just a total wrong ID case from the get go.

And we all know, had the Dodgers won that night, there wouldn't have been a fight.

Who knows?

Happy and merry, you know.

You know, my guy's in a white Dodger Jersey, right?

And the victim is bleeding profusely.

Like the pictures that they had at trial, he's still literally dripping with blood off of his face.

So my argument was a white Dodger Jersey gets no blood splatter?

Not even a speck?

So they booked that Dodger Jersey into evidence?

No.

But they took photographs?

No.

They didn't.

So no pictures were taken of your client?

No.

None.

So they didn't try to preserve any evidence of the...

Okay.

So you get...

I would assume that this police report is maybe a page and a half?

Maybe three pages, yeah.

Okay, three pages, and it contains pretty much what you've told us.

Yeah.

No additional discovery.

Mm-mm.

9-1-1s.

How about video surveillance from the club?

So in the report, the officers say, or the security guard, right?

The security guard who fingers my guy, who says that's the guy.

He tells the officers, "Yeah, there's video in the club, but it's gonna tape over in seven days."

So then I asked the officers, and they said that verbatim from their report.

"Yes, there's security surveillance in the club, it's gonna tape over in seven days."

And then the officer says, "Oh, yeah, that was my signal to the detective to go get the video surveillance."

No one got the video surveillance.

This is a year and two months ago.

It's gone.

Oh, okay.

So that's my other stipulation with the judge.

It's like, so the video doesn't exist.

Got it.

It's done.

And that was a huge part of my argument to the jury.

It's like, if the security guard actually cared about anything, his job, I guess, you'd preserve the video.

Why else is there video evidence other than to clarify when there's a dispute?

So, alright, so you read the reports, right?

You see that your client was involved in some sort of something, but he wasn't the guy.

The police arrested him later.

They don't get the video.

Where do you go from there?

So, sent an investigator out to go talk to victim, just to kind of be like, "Listen, do you remember anything else about the person who attacked you?

For example, his beard."

He basically gave a statement of, he gave a description of a guy, left out the beard.

Doesn't mention that.

Maintains the white Dodger jersey and the hat.

He's like, "Oh, the person had a hat."

When did you get the case?

Was there an immediate filing or was there a delay in filing?

I don't remember.

Okay.

I mean, I've had it for, I've probably had it set for trial almost since the summer.

Okay.

And if he posted bond, they probably filed immediately.

Okay, so if he posted bond, let's just walk the audience through this idea, right?

He gets arrested, let's say this is a Friday or Saturday night, you know, unless it's the kind of people that are clubbing on a weekday.

It was a Friday night.

It was a very important fact.

Oh, I mean, cause the game, the game too.

I mean, there's some people, all right?

Like, uh...

It's Los Angeles.

Isn't there a Tuesday night's party song that I'm thinking of right now?

I'll think about it.

Taco Tuesday?

Yeah.

Miley Cyrus song, a little...

There's a club song that's like, going down on Tuesday night or something.

Okay, anyway.

I'll edit it in.

Yeah, I want you to edit it in.

Like, that's my signal to the executive producer to edit in the song that I'm making.

I'll edit it in the song that I'm talking about.

Like, um...

Uh, but so, like, he gets arrested on Friday.

I mean, there's no court in our jurisdiction on Saturday or Sunday, right?

It's not like New York or some of these other jurisdictions that have 24-hour arraignments, right?

So, that gets to Monday, right?

So, we're already now three days past for the video.

If he's bonded out, and let's say he doesn't...

If they file immediately, maybe an investigator gets out there by that Friday to download the video.

But by all intents and purposes, almost impossible to get a seven-day video if you're arrested on Friday, right?

Like, I mean, and I think that's just contextually...

This is for this misdemeanor case in which it's in the police report and you can see it.

I mean, on, you know, death penalty cases and stuff, I mean, we lose, you know, valuable evidence because unless you're immediately sending out investigators, we're losing the ability to present this case.

So, by the time you get it, probably the video is gone.

Oh, yeah. I remember reading the report and being like, "Oh, that's gone. Seven days."

But the thing that infuriated me was that everyone was on notice, that there was...

Not everyone, the officers, people who are in charge of investigating this, were on notice that it was going to be deleted and they just did nothing, which...

By the way, tell us a little bit about your client.

Yeah.

Oh, he's like super, like mild-mannered, soft-spoken, kind of wanted to testify out, kind of out the gate.

And I was... I tried to... I told him, I was like, "I plan all my trials where I don't need you to testify."

Like, it's truly your choice.

How old was he?

Uh, 25.

Any record?

No. No record.

Tell us a little bit about that. That's an interesting philosophy.

Um, you just try not to... I don't know, I don't want to pressure them and I just try to get out all my facts from the police officers or the witnesses, even the stipulations.

That's why I had the Dodger thing be a stipulated fact.

The only thing I really needed him to testify to was that other people in the bar also had white Dodger jerseys on.

That was the only thing I couldn't get from any of the other witnesses.

But... and I thought he would do fine.

He had no record, nothing to impeach him with.

Um, and yeah, he was just quiet, soft-spoken, and that... that was complete with my theory.

A different, crazy, out of control person is the one in the bar, punching people.

My guy is the soft-spoken, he's a bigger guy, gentle giant, with his beard.

Um, so... and he... I thought he... I thought he did great testifying too.

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Anything else you did with terms of pretrial investigation then?

Interview... oh, and interview any other witnesses.

So here's what's kind of weird about this case.

When I was... so part of my negotiation is, can we civil compromise this, right?

This guy got punched in the face, he might just want... and my guy has no record.

So can we do a DEJ where if he pays for his medical bills, we make this go away?

But then client was like, "No, I didn't punch anybody in the face, I don't want to pay for it."

I'm like, "Oh, okay, that changes things."

He also got a private investigator, which was kind of different.

Your client did?

Yeah, client's mom paid for a private investigator.

And then he ended up being just in the wind and kind of shady, so it wasn't great.

Who was the investigator?

Yeah.

Couldn't get him in.

Prosecution wanted him in, too.

He's like, I think literally in Mexico.

I have no idea.

What did he...

What did he do for the case?

Yeah.

He apparently...

I got a victim statement of him going to the victim's house and it freaked out the victim.

And it's like, "Well, that's not good."

And then...

Is this kind of like a PI license?

Yeah, he does.

Because the PI's card was entered into evidence because the prosecutor tried to get his PI license

into evidence, which I was like, "This isn't relevant for anything."

Did you meet the PI at all?

No.

I talked to him on the phone, but that was it.

And he was the one who told me that the security guards at this place have a terrible reputation.

He was like, "If you go on Yelp, these people have gotten complained about multiple times."

Wait, wait, wait.

This is what I mean.

There's just so many fucking parasites in the criminal justice system, right?

We already have to deal with these shady, low-level...

Prosecutors.

I mean...

Oh, she's a prosecutor.

I mean some of these private attorneys that come in and kind of are exploitative.

But I've never heard...

This is my first time I've ever heard of a private investigator being like, "The mom's

like, "I'm gonna hire this private investigator."

Because we, as a very large public defender office, we have investigators.

We have investigators.

Right?

A lot of them are former police officers, right?

That have, you know...

Very capable.

Yeah.

That know how to approach witnesses.

And, you know, a lot of them are...

Professional.

Professional.

You know, like...

And so, to me, it's a little funny that you're like, "I'm gonna hire this private investigator

who, one, flees to Mexico, two, is telling you what they read on Yelp reviews.

It's like, "Thanks, dude.

How much are you charging these people for that?"

Dude, a lot.

I felt bad, yeah.

Right?

It's like, you're charging them all these thousands of dollars to do what...

You're Googling the club.

Thanks, dude.

Did you Yelp review the private investigator?

I don't...

I just remember, he was like, in the wind.

And so, it was like, "Oh, this is bad."

And then...

But you did turn over some statements from him.

That was the thing.

I kept waiting for his report.

Because it's like, "Yeah, if I'm gonna use you in trial and use you in this wonderful

investigation, I need to turn this over."

And he just went...

He just disappeared.

All right.

Any other pre-trial issues pop up, or investigation, or interview any other witnesses?

You know, with his friends, I think he had such a big group of friends, but only one was

really near him at that moment.

Because that's the thing, everyone just kind of got separated.

And so, yeah, once I had her statement saying, "Listen, I was with him.

When the bottle got taken away, he didn't punch anybody."

That was pretty much, "Okay, we're gonna go.

We're gonna go.

You're gonna say you didn't do it."

Oh, it was a woman that was with him?

Mm-hmm.

It was his cousin's wife or something like that.

She'd known him for like 13 years.

She was a character witness, too.

I was like, "What's your character?"

Wow, that's a strong witness.

Because when you were describing the story earlier, I thought it was like...

I thought your guy was in the club with his bros.

His friends, yeah.

Because...

It was a big group, that's for sure, yeah.

I made a gender assumption there.

That's okay.

But he had a female with him.

Yeah, like I said, yeah.

Big group, and then...

His cousin's wife.

It was his cousin's wife, yeah.

And she's like, "Hey."

You're pretty chill when you're with your cousin's wife.

Yeah, you're not getting all crazy when you're with him.

He's just not a crazy guy.

Like I said, super mild-mannered.

You guys are innocent.

I've decided it.

100%, right?

So the pressure's on.

Those are the scariest clients.

It is, it is.

The ones that actually didn't do anything, like...

Okay.

So, alright.

So you get sent off the trail, right?

Yes, but I'm in my court that I run the calendar for.

Okay, so your home court.

So my home court, I know the judge, I know the clerks, I know the bailiff.

Friendly territory for you?

Friendly territory for me, 100%.

Okay, nice, okay.

So how I'm feeling, I don't know about you guys, but when people ask me, "How do you

defend, quote unquote, those people?"

I go, "Well, the ones that terrify you are the innocent ones, because you're the only

one who thinks they're innocent.

The prosecutor doesn't think so.

Usually the judge hasn't really made up their mind yet either.

And now you've got to convince 12 people, who also probably think that they're guilty,

that they in fact are not.

And that you're not there to prove their innocence.

You're there to say the prosecutor cannot prove their case.

So I'm scared."

You're very kind.

You're like, "The judge hasn't made up their mind."

Well, yeah.

He kind of told me when the victim was testifying, he was like, "Oh, that's bullshit."

And I was like, "Oh, okay.

Like, there we are."

Oh, okay.

But...

So that's how you approach voir dire then, right?

We'll have to...

Yes.

So I'm voir direing the jury, so we're in the city that we're in, and my jurors

come in, and it's a lot of younger women.

I think it was probably 10 women in the box.

Nice.

Maybe nine, because I think I kicked one of the guys to get another woman on the box.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you think about young women on juries?

You connect with them?

You think you have a good problem?

I think so, because I don't know.

I like to think I'm a younger woman, and so the way I talk, and the way I, you know,

my vernacular...

Some people would say I would be characterized as a young woman.

I don't know.

Yeah.

And so...

You still got it.

You still got it.

But I just felt like, you know, I had one blonde girl in the back who was talking about

implicit bias training at work, and I'm like, "Oh, you are open-minded.

You know that there's other things going on in the world."

Loved her.

Prosecutor didn't kick her, because you turned to your client.

You're like, "Oh, they're going to get kicked."

And then they didn't.

But let me ask you this.

I mean, you're thinking about your connection with the jurors, because they're younger women,

or...

Who's the prosecutor, then?

Who...

She's a younger woman, too.

Okay.

I mean, she's Asian.

You know, I'm white.

She's Asian.

Whatever.

And there were definitely Asian women on the jury, too.

And actually, I asked, because part of the theory of the case was wrong ID, and part

of the jury instructions are cross-racial identification.

So I always ask, "Who's heard of cross-racial identification?"

And that's when the girl with the implicit bias training popped up, like, "Oh, yeah."

And I kind of just got to explain, people of different races have a hard time identifying

each other.

It's just, when you're a baby, that's what science says.

It's how you identify, how you process people's looks.

And so one of the young women, she said she identified as Chinese and Vietnamese, and she

was a special ed teacher.

And so I was already like, "Oh, you are just doing God's work.

Like, you have to have an open mind."

She was my foreperson.

Wow.

She has a bigger heart than public defenders.

Pretty much, yeah.

I mean, so you're right there, right?

But isn't it funny, going back to what you said about when you told your client, the

blonde woman said, "I had implicit bias training at work."

Right?

And then you tell your client, "That person's going to be kicked."

Right?

What is the cynical world that we live in?

That the person who's aware of like, you know, modern, psychological, and like racist, like

phenomena, it's like implicit bias that we're like, "Oh," and then we're trying to, we're

trying to combat that.

The prosecutor does not want that person.

We don't want that person who is aware and educated, right?

And understands how fucked up the system is.

We don't want them making the decision.

We want reactionary, punitive, regressive people on our chair.

Like, I mean, it's just so crazy to me, right?

Like, are we like, we live in this like crazy world where like, they want the people who

are the least educated, the least aware, like they want that.

Based off fear.

They want like, "Fear monger, be angry."

And then they accuse, they're like, "Victims!"

You know, they're just like, it's like real mob mentality that they want in there, right?

Like, what other issues did you bring up in Vladimir?

Um, just the burden, you know, the entire burdens on the prosecutor.

Are you guys okay with that?

She's a nice person.

You know, she's lovely.

Is that okay?

Just trying to dismantle the very implicit thing that it's, "Oh, it's even.

It's a 50/50 shot.

No, no, no, no, no.

I don't have to do anything.

Please, the entire burden is on her.

I'm not here to prove he's innocent.

That's not how this works.

The entire burden is on her.

There's, that's the reason there's no innocent box on the verdict forms."

That kind of thing.

Ooh, I like that.

Yeah, the innocent box.

I never thought about that.

Oh, oh, that's fun.

Yeah, I like that.

I like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I have a trial coming up.

I'm gonna use that.

Do it.

Yeah.

Cause it's, it really, cause then, and then thankfully too, when they're, when

it's like, okay, so how would you guys vote?

Innocent.

And it's like, I want to, whose hand shoots right up, you know?

Okay.

They're there for, they're there for the burden of proof.

I love it.

Okay.

Then I move over, not guilty.

And it's like, you guys understand, like those aren't the same thing.

Like I'm not here to prove he's innocent.

They have to prove their case.

That's why it's not guilty, not versus guilty or whatever.

You're talking to your client.

Hey, this, you know, that person's going to get kicked.

What do you think?

Like, I mean, are you, is that something you do?

Is that your philosophy in trial?

Like you feel like, are you trying to ask your client to be an extra set of eyes?

100%.

I was like, we are two people.

They are one.

That means I have it.

And I had his mom in the back too.

I was like, let's get mom's opinion too.

Oh.

Because Cheerios selection, I mean, it's a gut thing.

Yeah.

You just got to go, who's dogging you?

Who do you like?

And for me, I try to have my gut, you know, prevail over clients, but you know, there's

a lot of different cultures, you know, hanging out in LA.

Gotcha.

Sometimes it's like, I think it's like a high school thing.

Who's going to hang out with me in high school?

Who's going to hang out with the prosecutor in high school?

So, oh, that's a good one too.

Yeah.

I like that.

They're all the narcs.

They're like the snitches and the, we gotta follow the rules, whatever.

Well, I mean, if I was, I should rephrase that.

If I was my best self in high school, who would hang out with me?

Let me clarify that.

If I wasn't, if I wasn't in marching band, who would hang out with me?

I don't, I don't care what anybody tells you, Dave.

Marching band was cool.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

Like it gave you lifelong experiences that you could talk about.

Maybe tough.

Maybe tough.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like being in the army.

I was in wrestling.

So I was all about like that one on one.

All right.

Whoa.

Okay.

We are learning lots of stuff.

What'd you wrestle?

25s?

103s?

What'd you wrestle?

I wrestled.

Oh God, I have to say my weight class.

Oh, it was like 128.

Sorry.

Oh, interesting.

I wish it was still 128.

Sorry.

You wrestled like co-ed, right?

Like it wasn't girls.

Now that you see your headphones on, I see you with like the little wrestling.

I see it.

I see it.

I see it.

I see it.

I was going to say it's in that fucking high school.

We're going to look at a high school yearbook in a second.

In a goddamn singlet.

Oh gosh.

No.

I wrestled too.

So I get it.

Not in high school.

I wrestled in junior college, but I was not very good.

That's pretty intense.

You had to pick it up after high school.

I did.

Yeah.

I'm a terrible ground game, but anyway.

Yeah.

That's hard.

Yeah.

So, okay.

I've been there.

What's up, my fellow A&Gers?

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Any notable pre-trial or 402 motions?

Just, I wanted some stipulations regarding the Dodger season.

So you threw that in the very beginning?

Yeah.

Okay.

And how did that go down?

It was fine.

I mean, the judge, I went to the prosecutor first.

It was like, listen, we had to argue about how to word it, but all I'm trying to capture

is that it's Dodger fever in LA of 2018.

That's all it is.

That's all it is.

So I think the stipulation was like on Friday, October 12th, the Dodgers were involved in

game one of the NLCS against the Brewers and they lost.

And then they were playing them again on October 13th.

Because all of this happened technically on October 13th, because it was after midnight.

Any other stipulations?

And the video didn't exist.

The video's gone.

They stipulated to that.

100%.

Yeah.

Interesting.

I would not have stipulated to that as the prosecutor.

All right.

So you got your jury.

You're feeling good.

Yeah.

Your stipulations are all in your favor.

Dodgers lost the game.

The video's out.

There's no video.

There's no video.

All right.

Let's talk about opening statements then.

Oh, opening is nothing.

I don't say anything about openings.

It's super vague.

What was the prosecutor's opening?

You know, you're going to hear evidence that, you know, this guy went in and punched this

guy in the face.

I mean, that was the thing.

Did the prosecutor describe what he was doing before he got punched in the face?

He just went out to the club, having a good night with his friends, dancing, grinding.

I mean, like, what was anything like that?

I think that would have painted my guy in a more favorable light.

So she was just, it was very like victim perspective.

Like, you know, this victim goes out.

He grabs this bottle from this guy who's out of control on the dance floor.

He grabs the bottle.

And when he does that, he gets punched in the face.

He's got to get stitches.

She was very good at highlighting how the victim got injured.

Yeah.

Like, and afterwards, he bled blood from his head.

And that blood drenched his face and his clothes.

The paramedics were called.

But I even, I think I had a, I think I had a, someone whose wife was an RN on the jury.

And I liked that because if anyone knows how kind of, yeah, it's so vast.

There's so much vasculature.

It's so much blood from small, small cuts.

Yeah.

If you've ever had an injury, head injury, they bleed.

So I was kind of like, Oh, I kind of want a nurse on the jury.

Cause they'll know there would be so much blood.

The idea that got my guys in a white Dodger Jersey and has no blood on him.

But that's the evidence.

But yeah, no.

So opening is super vague.

Just, Hey, my guy didn't do it.

You know, wrong place, wrong time, wrong guy.

That was my theme.

Nice.

I love it.

I love the triplicate.

Wrong place.

Wrong guy.

He was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Cause he's the wrong guy.

Cause he's the wrong guy.

Okay.

I like it.

I like it.

In the wrong place because that, that club sucks.

To the club to see the crime.

Gotcha.

Okay.

All right.

So kind of a vague macro overbroad, a little, very broad opening statement.

So then the government, what is the government's case?

So then they call who they put on the victim first.

Okay.

So victims up first.

And that's when, Oh, he said, cause there's obviously, obviously things in trial that you

don't quite, you know, um, anticipate or whatever happens in trial, whatever.

He was so definitive about, it was my guy's right hand.

I saw this guy, he was out of control.

Prosecutor.

Okay.

Do you see that guy in the courtroom today?

Oh yes, I do.

He's right there next to defense counsel.

Oh yeah.

Let me give you a hint.

He's right next to defense counsel.

Everyone knows where he is, right?

Oh yeah.

What did you notice about him?

Well, I noticed his beard and I'm just thinking.

Beard.

Ooh.

Caps.

Circle.

You make no mention of that.

To two investigators.

Like, okay.

And then.

To two investigators.

You mean the shady PI that was privately hired.

Not even the shady.

My investigator.

Your PI.

You mean the original police investigator.

And then the cops.

Exactly.

There's no mention of a beard, right?

Nice.

And he says, yeah, it was his right hand.

And I remember thinking it was so strange that he knew the hand because I feel like that's

so easy to forget.

Yeah, I know.

You get punched in the face.

You don't know where it came from.

And then as he's testifying, he's saying, you know, and then I turned and my friends told

me and so I'm like, objection, hearsay, whatever your friend said does not come in.

And so it basically kind of came out that he got hit kind of from behind and didn't really

even see the person who did this.

So at that moment, I'm like, okay, the ID is entirely the security guard outside of the

bar fingering my guy in a white Dodger jersey.

It's not even the victim who even knows who hit him at this point.

Did he mention any alcohol consumption that night?

So, of course, he says I had just had maybe half of a beer.

That's it?

Yeah.

Come on.

Who goes to...

Fucking sweaty...

Club like that.

It gets really crowded too, right?

Yeah.

Absolutely.

You need like three beers just to like relax around that many people.

Yeah, just to like function.

Just to like...

When have you ever just had only a half of a beer?

And by the way, when I said three beers, I was really scaling it back.

I meant like six beers.

You need like shots and like...

I don't think I've ever had a half of beer in my entire life, okay?

Like who goes to the club and is like...

The club.

The club.

And then it's like, oh, I just have this half of a club.

Like if I just got there and I was at the bar as I was taking the drink from the bartender,

I've probably finished half before I turn around.

He's all, I didn't have enough money to buy a second drink.

I was going to steal this guy's drink.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm going to take it as much.

I'm going to take it as much.

That seems like what...

Now you've added a whole new motivation here, right?

Like, he's like on the way out.

He's like, oh, this guy's getting kicked out.

I'll have his beer.

Yeah.

He's pretty fucked up with me.

I'll have what he's having.

Oh my gosh.

So he...

And I forgot to mention during my...

Part of my pre-trial investigation was obviously going to the scene and like experiencing

an ordering a drink and I was...

So you went to the...

So you actually visited the crime scene, huh?

Well, because you got to.

You have to, right?

Okay.

You're going to trial.

I've gone to many crime scenes and it's funny because I usually have my boyfriend come

with me because it's in sketchy parts of LA.

But with this one with the club, he was like, no, I'm not going to the club.

So I had to have two other friends and we were just walking up.

He comes with you to shady spots in LA, but he won't come with you to the club.

100%.

But I got to give him credit because he's so nice.

He drives me.

It was just a ploy for you to go dancing.

He's like, no, I'm not.

You never just go dancing.

No, the crime scene's at a dance club, honey, please.

I don't even want to go dancing.

This is so not my scene.

I mean, now that we're here, you're going to wear that.

Is that what you're wearing out?

I don't even want to go to the club, but it's like, I have to, right?

Because it's like, this is a scene, right?

So I happened to be out with friends and then we were walking by it and it was like,

you guys, this is a crime scene.

Can we please just go in here?

And then thankfully they didn't charge us.

Oh my God, I wouldn't even do it.

Did you tell them that you, I'm here to do an investigation?

Yes, I did.

I announced that I'm at the door.

I was like, hi, I'm here to take pictures.

You went with your friends.

You're just randomly walking by on a Saturday night.

I don't even remember what night it was.

After a half a beer and then decided to do some crime scene investigation.

I got to get in there.

I got to paint the picture.

And it's true.

Now I know what the inside is like because it was all about where the fight was

and where the stair was and the VIP.

And I was like, okay, I'm oriented.

I'm oriented.

I know where all this is.

Like, oh.

Did you take any pictures while you were there?

No.

In your outfits?

Your little, little, little young women outfits.

That's what you wear out when you're friends.

Young lady outfits.

But they're the real MVPs because they went with me, you guys.

So I got to see the scene.

So it was very helpful.

So you guys go about the scene.

Anything.

Did you like feel like you got some perspective or anything extremely helpful from that?

Absolutely.

Because when clients telling me a story about, hey, we were near the stairs, there's like

multiple stairs going on.

And then even with the jurors to be like, oh, they've actually been there.

They said, oh, I've been on the first floor.

But it's like, but the club's on the second floor.

And, but I mean, even with the jurors too, it was nice to, who's been in a club, right?

Who, I, oh, that's what I've audited on.

Claustrophobia.

Who gets claustrophobic with a bunch of people?

Because if you don't like a bunch of people, you're not going to crowded places.

I don't like crowded places.

I can barely handle it at concerts.

But when you're in the club, I was just trying to understand, like, things happen fast.

There's a crowd.

You don't know what's going on.

People are pushing through the crowd, which causes a ripple effect.

People are pushing.

Precisely.

And even the victim, while he was testifying, was saying like the club wasn't, he said the club wasn't

static.

And I was like, oh, that's a SAT word.

Like, it was, it was moving.

It was grooving.

And so.

Wow.

That, that, whoa, that is.

Right?

That's a great adjective.

Yeah.

So I was like, oh, okay.

I was like kind of impressed.

But at the same time, it's like, but you don't know who to be in the face.

We were moving.

We were grooving.

What song is that, Nikhil?

Is that in a song?

Moving and grooving together?

Yeah.

It's a song.

It's a Marvin Gaye and a, yeah.

Yeah.

Anyways.

Anyways, guys.

We had a, I love Mackinan and Drake reference earlier.

Marvin Gaye.

Hey, that's just by signal to the producers.

Yeah.

To drop that in there.

One more grooving.

I can't wait to hear this episode with this music in the background.

It's going to be great.

We're grooving together.

Oh.

So, all right.

So you get up to cross examine the, the victim.

Yeah.

So tell us about that.

So, my theory was he's legitimately a victim, right?

He's not lying.

He legitimately got punched in the face.

So it's very soft spoken, but very, but you didn't see this.

And you didn't make these ideas.

And so it was, I had to, I was setting up the impeachment with my investigator being like,

you know, when an investigator called you in July, she was a woman.

Cause the private investigator is a guy.

Right?

So I'm like, listen, in July, a woman called you on the phone.

Do you remember that?

And do you remember giving her a statement?

And it's like, and in that statement, you never said he had a beard.

He's like, oh, I don't, I don't really remember.

And he was being, even the judge said he was being evasive.

Yeah.

I was like, okay, well, if you read your statement, would that refresh your recollection?

No, I don't think it will.

Oh.

And I was just like, really dude?

Like reading it?

Which is great.

Isn't gonna refresh your recollection?

Really?

Like.

All right.

So then what happens next in the people's case?

When they called the security guard.

Okay.

Who's the manager of the, of the club, of the club, the management of security.

And I couldn't believe he still had a job.

When he said he still works there, I was like, you still have a job.

You didn't preserve the video.

You didn't arrest the guy who assaulted somebody in front of you.

Like, and then his testimony was so, he just kept rambling.

And I don't even know how the court reporter took it down.

Cause he just had such long winded answers that didn't really make any sense.

And the judge was kind of getting frustrated too.

So it was just like, this isn't a good witness either.

That's even on the prosecution's case.

He was just sort of all over the place.

Sort of all over the place.

A hundred percent.

Even on direct.

I could, I could barely take notes.

Cause it was like, what are you even saying?

I don't even know what you just said.

Give us an example.

I'm kind of curious what you mean.

Like, what do you mean?

He was so all over the place.

He was just like, Oh yeah.

So the prosecutor, Oh, what happened?

Well, so the, I had my guard and then I, I took him in and then, and you're just, and

you're just rambling.

And you're like, he was giving like specifics.

Like he had my guard.

Like he's giving like play by plays on the actual fight.

Like succinct or clear.

It's just, Oh yeah.

So then I had my guard take him.

And then it's like, okay, but you weren't the actual person.

No, it was my guard.

And then it was just weird.

So like things he didn't see and hear mixed into what he heard and saw timelines, probably

getting all come.

Oh yeah.

Convoluted and stuff.

You love, you love how the officers arrested your client based on this dude.

Right.

Dude.

These, uh, very veteran trained police officers responded were like, you know, based on this

security guard, you're obviously a pillar of the community who has given us clear, concise

information that is irrefutable.

We're going to definitely arrest somebody and put them in jail.

Right.

Like based on this, like one punch because you, you know, it's just, it's just so ludicrous,

right?

Like, um, to resolve this conflict.

Okay.

He was, he was distancing himself from the case then by saying, Oh, somebody else.

He's like, he's saying other people were doing things.

He, right.

He didn't really help the prosecution's case.

It was weird.

He basically tried to help in the sense of like, Oh yeah, you guys have the right guy.

Yeah.

That's the guy I pointed out because that's the guy that, that I saw hit the guy.

But then it was just like, but why didn't you keep him there?

And I didn't, I didn't ask him that.

I argued that, but it's like, why didn't you just keep the person that you just observed,

punch somebody in the face?

Why would you let your guard escort him out?

What was the next piece of evidence from the prosecution?

Um, so then they call the cops, the responding arresting officer.

Correct.

Okay.

So he comes out.

Tell me about this.

It was, he, um, what was it on direct?

So yeah, direct is anything that they say is hearsay.

So I was like, Nope, none of that's coming in.

How, what was, Oh, my favorite.

What was my guy's demeanor?

Right.

When they placed my guy under arrest, the first cop tries to say, Oh, he was angry.

And I'm combing through the report.

I'm like, there is nothing in here about my guy being angry at all.

And I, I highlight, you didn't, you didn't play because he was angry.

You didn't put in your report that he smelled like alcohol, that had red watery eyes, that

he was slurring his words, that he was combative.

So then the cop tries to say, well, I'm like, I'm like, you don't have any mention of anger

in your report.

He's like, well, a lot of people get arrested when they're angry.

A lot of people when they're getting arrested, they're angry.

So I don't usually include it in my report.

I'm like, okay, just, this is a year and a half ago.

You don't remember if he was angry, get off the stand.

So then the next cop comes up.

First question from the prosecutor, how is, you know, Mr. Client's demeanor.

And Oh, he was cooperative.

And I'm just like, thank you that your words, not mine.

Thank you.

He was cooperative.

You know why?

Cause he's not the guy who's out of control in the bar.

Like that's just, that was a different person.

Oh, you're getting ready for your case now, right?

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

I'm into it.

So the night before my case, client texts me saying, Hey, I have a sleeve of tattoos on

my right arm.

And I'm just like, Oh my gosh, let me see them tomorrow.

I want to make sure they're not too gangy.

And cause I, same thing.

He was like, Oh, I remember the victim saying it was my right hand.

I was like, me too.

I had that exact same reaction.

He was so adamant about being a right hand.

Let's see your tattoos.

So the next day client shows me, he's got an LA on his forearm.

He's got the Virgin Mary.

My client, my judge is super Catholic.

I was like, yes, let's get that Virgin Mary.

So he's got like, let me ask you that.

Let's break it down.

I'm a big tattoo guy.

So, um, so he's not got like American in our, in where we practice law.

There's a lot of American traditional tattooing.

There's the black and white, the black and white kind of shaded grayscale tattoos.

Okay.

And so he has LA in the dot, in the Dodger, the Dodger LA.

I love it.

Right on his forearm.

And then the Virgin Mary, like almost like Michelangelo painted on his arm in black and white.

Right.

Like he's got stitches of a baseball too.

Oh, no, he doesn't.

I swear to God.

That's what the judge pointed out.

He's like, Oh, are those stitches on a baseball?

I was like, yeah, he's got that on his forearm too.

Like that was during, during testimony.

The judge pointed that out.

Yes.

Okay.

So tell us about, he's like, well, the record, he's doing the record reflecting.

He's like, the record reflects the, the, the defendant has sex and he's describing it.

I did that for the most part.

But yeah.

Yeah.

Tell us about your, your, your presentation of your case.

So I call his friend, um, who was there and I asked her, you know, you're there at the

club.

Cousin's wife.

Cousin's wife.

Yeah.

You know, you're there.

Oh yeah.

I'm there that night.

Okay.

It goes down between the security guards and the VIP section and our group.

And there's just this whole thing.

It's a misunderstanding, but then it's escalating and drinks are flying and everything's crazy.

And so we just decided to get out.

Okay.

Were you there when my client's drink got taken away?

Yes, I was.

Okay.

What happened after that?

His drink got taken away and then we got pushed out of the club.

Okay.

Did he hit anybody?

No.

Did he get into any fight?

No.

And it's like, okay.

And then I just did a little bit of character evidence with her too.

You know, how long have you known her?

How long have you known him?

What's his demeanor?

Is he an honest person?

Is he a nonviolent person?

Yes.

Yes.

That kind of thing.

And then what's the next piece of evidence you presented?

So then I call client to testify.

Very dramatic.

Very dramatic.

The defense calls Mr. Client to testify.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did you stand up and declare it?

Yeah.

I stand up.

Of course I do.

He's going to come to the stand.

Can you tell us about your trial attire?

What do you wear when you're in trial?

Oh, just my fanciest suits.

Your best?

Okay.

My absolute best.

And your finest suits.

My finest suits.

And I was on my, I have, I think I have four unique outfits.

I was on my fourth one.

I was like, let's get this trial.

I can't go.

Another day.

I was like, the jury's going to see a different jacket.

Because a female juror would have noticed that.

A hundred percent.

They would have.

Yeah.

Dressing for the girls.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

And the kill.

And me too.

Okay.

I'm dressing for the girls and the kill, obviously.

And me too.

I'm watching.

I'm always watching.

I'm keeping track.

I'm like, that process.

I'm like, that DA wore the same thing on Tuesday.

So tell us about your client's testimony.

How did that go down?

It went well.

Which is like, obviously, you're, you're, the worst thing ever is like, oh my God, he's

on the stand.

Oh my God, I can't handle this.

But he's, again, he's soft spoken.

He's mild mannered.

And I kind of prepped him.

I'm like, listen, the prosecutor's going to try to get you angry, right?

They want to get you riled up.

So you're this crazy guy who punches people in the face.

But he just, I mean, I went through my direct.

Tell us what happened.

Why did you go back to the club?

Oh, I couldn't find my cousin.

What happened?

Oh, I got arrested.

Did you cooperate?

Yeah.

Okay.

Did you punch anybody in the face?

No.

You know.

He described how the fight went down also then, the melee at the club.

He just, yeah, he basically just said, you know, it was, it kind of seemed like it had

gotten resolved, but then it started riling up again.

And just, I mean, they, everyone testified that drinks were flying.

I don't think I've ever been in a club where the drinks are in the air.

That's kind of obviously scary.

And so he's like, yeah, we just tried to get out.

And the bouncers physically pushed us out, pushed us down the stairs.

His friends got bruised.

His friends got shoe prints on their, their clothing.

It was just a whole, a whole melee, but he didn't, he didn't punch anybody.

Um, going back when your client testified, did, um, did you talk about his tattoos?

So yes.

So then I'm on notice.

So then I told him, it was like, so, you know, client, I'm going to have you like take off

your jacket.

Like, and so then the judge is like, you can just roll up your sleeve.

Cause I'm thinking he doesn't take off a shirt, right.

To show his whole sleeve of tattoos.

Um, but yeah, he takes off his jacket, takes off his tie, rolls up his right arm of all

arms.

He has nothing on his left arm.

So supposedly he punched with his right arm, right?

Exactly.

Or the beer bottle was taken from the right arm, right?

So how do you mention the right arm and not mention the sleeve of tattoos going up that

right arm, right?

That's the first thing you think about a Dodger Jersey short sleeved, right?

Okay.

So then, yeah, he, he takes off his tie, rolls up a sleeve and it's just like, okay, your

honor for the record, he's got an LA tattoo right there.

He's got his Virgin Mary tattoo.

He's got laces.

Then the judge is like, oh yeah, there's also laces of the baseball there.

And it's just like, okay, let the record for all those things.

And then when prosecutor gets stepped across, they actually exchanged like a chuckle.

Cause he was like going to put on the back his tie.

And then she's like, do you want to put back your tie on?

He's like, no, it's okay.

And I was like, no, it's fine.

And then he was just super nice.

And I was like, okay, thank you.

You know, here's the person prosecuting him.

He's so like nice.

And they had a little laugh.

Deference.

Yeah.

He's just so gentle.

Let me, let me help you.

You're going to ask me questions to make me sound guilty, but how can I help assist you?

Exactly.

Do you want to keep it on?

Do you want to jack it off?

Yeah.

What do you want me to do?

It's like, that's okay.

And so then they like laughed and I was like, oh, thank God.

Yes.

There was laughter.

Was there a spark between the two maybe?

That's a great, that's a great, that's a great, like, was it meet cute?

Yeah.

He was just a defendant.

I was just a prosecutor.

Yeah.

I was just a prosecutor.

This is an innocent guy that I, my office told me to prosecute.

I was just doing my job like the Nazis.

Oh, I'm sorry guys.

So yeah, so he testified and then we got the tattoos out and then you got to close.

And I said, did I close?

I think I had to start that day and then I finished the next day.

And this case didn't really need a PowerPoint.

Yeah.

I was like, I just want to connect with the jurors.

I'm going to tell them the story about the melee at the bar.

So that was, so when I realized my closing was going to get cut off, cause that's the worst nightmare, right?

You close and then they have all night to do your, the rebuttal.

Oh my gosh, that's not happening.

You're cutting me off.

So I basically just highlighted, I think the two strongest pieces of evidence were the fact

that my guy had no blood on him.

And I had the pictures of the victim and I'm showing them to the jury.

I'm like, this guy is literally dripping in blood, head wounds bleed.

And my guy has no blood on him.

And the officers, you know, the 30 year veteran cops, there's no injuries to my guy's hands.

You can't split somebody's face open without getting some type of injury on your own hand.

And my guy had nothing by virtue of they didn't photograph his hands.

Therefore there was nothing to photograph.

Therefore it's not my guy.

So I tried to just highlight my two, I thought that was my strongest pieces of evidence.

And then it was like, okay.

And I, you know, I get all riled up when I'm on my, cause I was, I was just so frustrated

with the cops and the lack of investigation and the fact that there's a legitimate victim.

Like this guy got punched in the face.

Like there's no disputing that.

And now he's not going to get justice because the security guard just decided to let the real guy go out into the wild and go punch other people.

But my guy, who's the calm, cooperative, soft spoken, mannered guy.

Looking for his family.

Just looking for his cousin in a white Dodger jersey in October of 2018.

Just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And then your honor, let's, let's come back tomorrow.

Rooting for the wrong team.

On that night.

We really did lose.

It was so sad.

Um, but yeah.

And then I got to finish up to the next day, which was just glorious.

It was like, yes, please give me an evening with my closing argument.

Thank you.

And your client's beard.

We never found out what kind of beard he has.

I don't.

How would you describe it?

Full.

Just a full beard.

It's not like the full on, um, hipster fight or long.

I think I said in my closing, I was like Turner beard.

I was.

No, it is.

It was a full, I was like, you guys, like that's because I had all the ladies.

Right.

And it was like, you guys, the beards in guys have beards, beards, the flannel, the jeans, the shoes.

It's a look.

Okay.

My guys got it.

The security guard walking in, had it.

Beards are in.

Right.

This isn't like, I don't know, clean shave nineties.

Like this is 2019.

It's not even ironic anymore.

Exactly.

It's 100% Percival.

Exactly.

And he had a good, he had a good full, full beard.

And it's like the first thing you say, if you see a guy with a beard and tattoos punch

you in the face is that he had a beard and tattoos.

You don't say he's in a white Dodger Jersey, the white Dodger Jersey.

That's not an ID in LA.

That's just not, it's not an ID at all.

Or Latino.

That's not an ID.

That's not an ID.

It's just not.

Latinx.

Latinx.

That Latinx.

Right.

But I mean, it's almost like, right?

Like it's like, I mean, we live here, right?

It's like, are you Mexican?

Salvadoran?

Honduran?

Guatemalan?

Right.

Like, are you American?

Are you Mexican-American?

Or are you Mexican-Mexican?

Chicano.

There's a lot of identities.

You can really tell, right?

And there's like different types of Mexicans.

You're from Southern Mexico, Eastern Mexico, Western Mexico.

Right.

Like Latinx.

Latino.

Right.

And it's like, I mean, you could be Filipino, dude.

Right.

And it's like, there's so many cultures.

Right.

You can be, you can be just American, Native American.

People be like, oh, you're Latino.

Right.

But you're like, I'm actually Native American.

I was literally here first.

Yeah.

Right.

And so like, I, it's just such a broad description.

It's not, it's not.

Light skin, dark skin.

Right.

What kind of eyes?

Right.

And then you're missing, I know the beard was a big issue, but, and then the sleeve.

Right.

So, um, okay.

So I feel like, I feel like I get the passion of your case a lot during the closing argument

here.

Right.

So that's your argument.

You're.

So then you break though.

Yeah.

That, that evening.

So I had, I had, I did the two strongest parts of my argument and then I'm like, your

honor, I'm all riled up.

Let's just break right now.

And then it was really nice.

You want to end on a high.

Right.

Exactly.

On a high.

Exactly.

I'm not letting them rebut or rebut.

And then I, then the next day it was like, okay, you know, picking up where I left off and

kind of still established, you know, all the, the lack of investigation in their case, you

know, all the things, no injuries on his hands, no video, the seven days, seven days.

They didn't even bother.

And then, cause it was like, okay, I get that the officers told their detective or whatever

that he could go get the video.

But I was like, but why didn't the security guard preserve it?

He also knew it was going to loop over.

There's a huge brawl.

And I kind of just, Oh, so I did the thing where you pick up something and you try to

say, you know, if you vote beyond a reasonable doubt, if I run into you 10 years from now

and I say, Hey, I have the video.

If you vote guilty, you don't need to see that video because you know what happened.

And then I think I said, and if we had the video, it would show my guys innocent.

And that got objected to.

And that was sustained.

Cause you can't say that.

Cause that's, that's facts on evidence.

Yeah.

But I got to at least establish like, listen, if you really are convinced, then you wouldn't

need to see this video.

But if you want to see this video, then that means you have doubt.

And that means you need to vote.

I love the, I love that.

If you have a, you know, if Matlock came in here with, uh, I do that too, but I love

it.

I love how you pushed the envelope a little bit there.

So you hear an argument that the jurors go out and they deliberate.

How long were they deliberating for?

Um, so they, they went back in the morning.

And then they, I would say maybe two and a half, maybe two hours.

Okay.

They come out.

Tell us about the not guilty.

Well, my God, it's the best part.

So, okay.

So we, we finished closing in the morning.

So she's finally done with her B and it's like 11.

So they go out and it's like, okay, what are they going to do?

Okay.

They're going to go to lunch.

Okay.

So they're still out.

So then around one 30, I happen to be in the courtroom when it's like the jurors have

a question.

They want read back of the security guards testimony.

And I'm just thinking, oh my God, that was the only person who I, I argued even saw

anything.

And so I kind of tell client, listen, sometimes they want read back, but they'll keep deliberating.

And sometimes they can't even come back with a verdict, even though they haven't gotten

read back yet.

And that's exactly what happened.

So as the court reporter is trying to get the read back, cause there were so many objections,

she's like, yeah, it kind of took a while.

Suddenly it's like, you know, one or two in the afternoon.

And it's like, okay, we have a verdict.

And that is my worst fear.

Cause I'm here to hang a jury.

I'm not here to, to, I cannot handle a verdict.

A verdict means he's probably found guilty and I cannot handle it.

And it's the worst.

And so it's like, okay.

Wait, don't you listen to this podcast?

They, not guilty is happening all the time.

Every day.

Every day.

Every day.

I prefer cases being dismissed.

That's my jam.

Or I'm here to hang.

That's where I'm at.

I cannot handle, or just the dead bang loser.

And it's like, fine.

They're found guilty.

It's fine.

Well, please.

So it was like, Oh, they have a, they haven't even gotten the read back yet.

Right.

The court reporter is still working on it.

Okay.

So you're with your client.

Then a verdict comes and you're like, fuck, fuck, fuck.

In my head.

Yeah.

What do you, what do you, how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you show yourself

to your client?

Are you like, we're good?

We're good.

No.

Oh no.

There was no confidence.

I literally told client.

It was like, listen, cause it's like carrying you to the bench.

You said, you start telling him about like, if you're reminded, don't, don't freak

out.

Cause I have to tell him cause they, the last verdict, my guy was in custody.

There was like six deputies at the verdict.

I was like, Oh my gosh, you guys, this is a bit of an overkill.

To be honest, I feel like we should start putting a jury instruction in about that.

Because I, I just think like you may have seen like a deputy near the client.

Cause it's like, it is very ominous, right?

Like why?

Cause I've been at a trial recently where there was like 12 or 15 deputies.

Oh my God.

And it was just cause it was so late in the day that when they called the call on the radio,

there's nothing else for them to do.

Oh yeah.

So they're like, whatever.

I'll come over to the verdict.

I'm like, it makes people think that people are crazy.

Yeah.

They're super dangerous people.

They can fly off panel at any moment.

Yeah.

It's horrible.

So I warned client.

I was like, listen, like six deputies.

There was only like two.

Cause my, my bailiff is really cool.

But I was like, listen, there might be like multiple deputies who surround you.

Don't freak out.

Cause I didn't, I didn't think the judge was going to take him in, but I didn't know.

And so it was just, and that's the word.

Oh God, you guys, I hate getting verdicts.

It's the absolute worst.

So yeah.

So then you sit there and you're just praying and the clerk is reading the entire bloody paragraph

before they get to the freaking verdict, even though they saw it.

The judge knows the clerk knows everyone knows in the case and county of dah, dah, dah, dah.

And it's just, does your judge have a good poker face?

Did you not know?

I can't even look.

I'm looking, I'm staring at the table.

I can't look at the judge cause he doesn't.

So I'm thinking, I'm going to think I know what's happening, but I don't.

So wait, just read the paragraph in the case in the, go ahead.

The case in the county of Los Angeles, dah, dah, dah, dah.

We, the people, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

Not guilty.

And you're just like, did I hear not?

Did I hear not?

Can someone confirm that not was said before the word guilty?

The word guilty.

Oh my God.

But there's two, right?

There's the two 42 and then there's the two 40 lesser.

So right.

So clients happy.

And I'm like, no, there's still one more.

We got to wait.

And then it was like, okay, we, the people find the dah, dah, dah, dah.

Not guilty.

And it's like, oh, I always grab my client's arm.

I'm always like, oh my God, we did it.

Holy shit.

I'm not going to faint.

Oh my God.

This is amazing.

He's like, he's got the, the shoulders.

Cause he's like crying and it's like, oh my, and then I, and then I'm going to cry.

And then you look over at the jurors.

Part of them are tearing up.

It's just such a lovely, a lovely little moment in time.

Cause now you're in a post.

He was found in this world.

It's just so nice.

Yes.

They get, they get you.

They get you.

We all are on the same table.

Kumbaya.

Let's all just marry.

And so then it was like, Hey, you know, I'd lean to him.

Listen, I'm going to go talk to them.

Cause that's like professional feedback.

Like I got to go talk.

And so then judge kind of like says, you know, you need to be careful when you go out to

bars or whatever.

Oh God.

Come on, dude.

It's like, you know, let, let, let.

Cause the process is pretty fucked up.

That's a lot of bad cops out there.

Yeah.

Be careful.

If I was a judge, that's what I would say.

I'm like, you may be falsely accused of a crime against her.

You should be careful.

You may be falsely.

You go out and you talk to the jurors, right?

Tell us about that.

So I loved my jurors.

I love them from jury, jury selection.

And, um, when the girl raised her hand, said she was the four person.

It was like, Oh, called it.

Yes.

Um, who was the four person?

This young woman who identified as Chinese and Vietnamese.

She was the special ed teacher.

Yeah.

And she was very.

Yeah.

During voir dire, the guy next to her had like a stutter and she was like kind of comforting

him like, Hey, it's okay.

You know, dah, dah, dah.

And I was like, Oh, I already, I love you.

You're my, you're my girl.

Totally.

She's like, you can talk in public.

I'll help you.

Yeah, exactly.

I will help you.

I'm here to help people.

This is my role in the world.

Um, so yeah, she helped me secure not guilty verdict.

It was very, I was very, very appreciative.

Um, she actually talked actually for a while.

There was another, Oh, there was another juror.

She was a, um, uh, maybe middle aged African American woman and just her voice was so booming

during voir dire.

Like she commanded the courtroom.

It was like, how are you not in law?

Like you just commanded this whole thing.

Like she gave me a lot of feedback because there was two jurors who basically when they

went back there were like, we'll just vote with whatever you guys want to do.

We'll just do whatever you guys want to do.

And she got so mad because she was like, no, this person deserves your verdict and your

decision.

Imagine if it was your son.

Imagine if it was your brother.

Imagine if it was your husband.

And I'm just like, I can't even argue that, but thank you for make taking, making them take

it seriously.

I mean, it's fucked up that jurors are like that though.

Whatever you guys want to do, I don't care.

Yeah.

Which is horror.

And I kind of told, I mean, I kind of client, I was like, listen, they're a follower.

There's the leaders and the followers.

So you only have to convince the leaders.

Right.

And leader, leader number one was where's the evidence?

Where's the blood?

Where's the investigation?

They very much were just like, there wasn't an investigation.

There wasn't evidence to actually prove.

And I was just like, Oh, thank God.

Cause the evidence was the testimony, obviously the two guys, but they saw through that, that

they could easily be wrong.

Isn't it also funny though, like when you have the era of judges that go on this like weird

society tribe about like, Oh, this is the greatest system we've ever invented.

Oh, 100%.

He did that.

And you're like, and you're like, no, it really is a shitty system.

So you're like, especially when you hear jurors that are like, I just did whatever anybody

else told me to do.

And then someone shamed me into making a decision or thinking independently.

And they're like, this is the greatest thing humanity has ever come up with to determine

guilt or innocence.

And we are the freest nation.

Yeah.

As a freest nation.

We have the best criminal system.

Yeah.

If you enjoy freedom, right?

Make sure you, I know we will not pay you.

We will not, we will not do anything to make sure your job doesn't penalize you.

Right?

Like we won't do any of that, but freedom, right?

If you love freedom.

If you're a teacher or a government worker.

Half the world's incarcerated people.

Like we've incarcerated more people than any other society in all of human history.

That's how you know it works.

That's how you know it works when people are in prison.

Yeah.

This is so funny, right?

Cause they're like, it works so great.

And then you like, you see these deficiencies in the jury system.

Like, wow.

Right?

Like, I mean, I could have got any 12 people, right?

12, 11 of them could have been like, I don't give a shit.

Right?

Like, or 11 of them could have been like, I'm just voting guilty.

Cause this other guy's voting guilty.

Right?

And yeah.

They said it's the greatest system.

Or, you know, they compare it to other countries that I'm like, do you even know what other

countries do?

Like in North Korea.

I was like, okay, dude, tell us about North Korea, man.

What were you going to say?

Yeah, sorry.

I was like, you know, you have to be there cause my judge does a hundred percent give

that speech.

Like, I just want to really thank you for your service.

But I don't know.

I kind of buy into it cause I don't know.

I get paid for jury service.

So it's easy for me to say that.

Right?

We get unlimited jury service.

I'm serving jury duty at the end of the month.

Right?

But it's a weird, it's a weird American flex.

Right?

And it's like, it's kind of like, why are we like, especially cause I'm like, I question,

I'm like, do the judges actually know what other country, like what other like civil law

countries do?

Like what does France do or what is, you know, what is like other Western, you know, even

like this adversarial system brings out the truth.

That's what we say.

Cause we're all fighting each other.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're like, does it though?

It's not the shady side of everybody.

People want to win.

Yeah.

Um, so were you able to talk to your client before he walked up, walked off with the prosecutor?

I mean, he was out there too.

He actually was talking to the jurors.

The jurors were giving him feedback.

He was talking for him and his mom were there.

Um, so it was really nice.

Obviously seeing mom after a not guilty verdict and not having to watch, watch you, watch your

son get taken into custody, which is like my worst nightmare.

Um, but yeah, what's so nice about the not guilty is too, is that a lot of times the jurors

just stay a lot of times.

So I heard the judge say when they walked in, they were all laughing and that's like for

the judges.

It's like, Oh, it's gotta be a not guilty if everyone's laughing, which is, you know, usually

true.

Um, but yeah, no, it was, uh, yeah.

Well, nice.

I mean, like first off, great, great job.

Yeah.

This is like a fun trial to do.

This is cool.

It's misdemeanors, right?

It's super.

Yeah.

It was, it was, Oh God, it wasn't a DUI.

Ugh.

Sorry if you guys do DUIs a lot.

Um, so Haley, Haley, how long have you been with the officer?

Uh, about two years, almost two years.

All right.

Okay.

And, uh, yeah.

Why?

Tell us, tell us, we want to know why'd you want to become a public defender?

Uh, when'd you get the call?

I think when I was researching what to be in law school.

Uh, people, I wanted to be in trials.

I wanted to do public speaking and I didn't want to deal with money.

So it was like, okay, so either DA or public defender.

And then the base, the response was, we'll just go work in one of those offices and you'll,

you'll find your vibe.

And I think I got my job first in a public, I applied, I have cover sheets applying to DA's offices, which is just crazy town.

Now that I think about it, cause I could never be a prosecutor.

And I got my first job in a PD's office up in Yolo County or internship.

And it was like, Oh my God, these are my people.

Of course I belong here.

Wait, in Yolo County?

Yolo.

Yeah.

I Yolo'd for some guys.

Yeah.

You only live once.

I Yolo'd.

Yeah.

You were like, and that's, that's the.

If it's, if it's only going to be once, you want to be a public defender.

Yeah.

Got you.

So, and then you got your first taste and then.

Oh yeah.

Defender's office.

Um, I like being in court.

I just, I think I have a defensive personality.

Like even, Oh gosh, you guys, this is terrible.

But sometimes even these cops, I'm like, Oh, but you guys, I don't know.

And I want to defend them.

And it's like, stop.

Like even like police brutality cases.

Okay.

Usually I draw the line, but I, I feel it in my, in my bones.

It's like, Oh no, I want to defend.

I want to defend.

And it's like, okay, then you, I cannot prosecute someone.

You think, you think of that like a contrarian argument always.

Always.

Exactly.

I'm always there.

If anyone's talking shit, it's like, well, you guys, let's see it from their perspective.

And it's just like, Oh my God, you're so annoying.

But yeah, go be a defense attorney.

And well, we appreciate.

Yeah.

You're having you down the hallways being annoying as fuck on a daily basis.

You know?

Ditto.

Uh, thank you for being on the podcast today.

Thank you guys so much for having me.

This is so fun.

Anytime.

I hope more, hope more NGs.

That would be the worst.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of another not guilty.

Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A and G theme music composer and Mike Grimm for the remix.

And guess what?

We'll be back in two weeks with another Not Guilty Straight from the Trenches.