Bemidji PDs To The Rescue! – When Key Evidence Gets Tossed Overboard

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We get back for motions and lemonade argument again. And this time we're like going for broke on these medical records stuff. We're like, "Judge, this is now ridiculous that it was two and a half years already and six months ago you told them to give us these records and they have not." And then the prosecutor claims at that point that he never had medical records, contrary to what he told the judge exactly six months ago. And the judge gets very frustrated with him and kind of takes under

under advisement our request to, you know, again, dismiss the case, preclude evidence, preclude the ER nurse from testifying.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore. Here, along with my fellow public defenders, presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not guilty as public defenders get on a daily basis in an unjust criminal system with the deck stacked against us.

All right. Welcome back, everybody, to another Not Guilty. Not going to lie to you.

Really excited about today's show, folks. We got some awesome public defenders here lined up to share their courtroom jury trial war stories to let you guys know what badass attorneys public defenders are and how we're down there every day in the trenches kicking justice's butt because justice don't exist and it's fake and we got to let it know that.

I'll let it know that on a daily basis. But I am excited about today because not just because of the guests, but our co-host, pretty awesome dude.

We got my brother Dennis with us today. Hi, Dennis. How's it going?

Good, good. How's everybody doing out here? I am happy to be here again for my second episode of Another Not Guilty.

Thank you so much for having me back. You know, fans, they loved you. 55% voted to have you back. More than 50% people liked you, Dennis. So we thought we'd bring you back.

But, you know, it's not about Dennis and I, you know, we've been kicking ass our whole lives. It's about our guests today. We have two public defenders from Bemidji, Minnesota.

Bemidji, Minnesota. That's where today's guests are from?

As we call it.

I love it. I love it. That sounds like the country you go and visit, you know?

If you've been to Canada, it's a lot like that, but, like, a little more south.

Not as nice. Not quite as nice as Canadians.

A&G World, say hi to Katie and Sarah. Who wants to go first? I'll go with Katie first. Hi, Katie. How you doing?

I'm doing great. How are you?

Doing good. Doing good. Thanks for being on the show today. And you're here to share a jury trial with us, huh?

Yeah. It's the craziest jury trial that we've ever had, and I was lucky enough to have Sarah with me.

Oh, she's too nice.

So we also have Sarah, too. Sarah, how's it going?

It's going good. Happy to be here.

So you and Katie teamed up for this case, right?

I was dragged in kicking and screaming, actually, but then it was fun once I got to join.

So this is the craziest jury trial that Bidmigi has ever had. That's what today's episode is about.

And it was an allegation of our client beating two women pretty severely with a baseball bat.

It's two counts of first-degree assault.

Okay. And what is first-degree assault?

It is assault that could have caused death, essentially, that severe permanent bodily injury or loss of function or death.

The most serious assault charge you can pick up?

It is, yeah.

And what did your client allegedly do? How did he assault two women?

Well, allegedly, he was with these women, picked them or met them at Target in Bemidji and drove with them about 30 miles west to a town called Bagley.

And everything was good.

He had allegedly just helped them buy some oxycodone.

They get to the house.

They're sitting down.

They're chatting.

Everything is normal.

And then he just pulls a baseball bat out of nowhere, out of his pants, and proceeds to beat them really severely.

And one of the women gets out, runs to the neighbors.

The other one gets out, is running around, is allegedly pursued by our client, hits him in the face with a brick, and somebody sees her on the street, and he runs away and then is not apprehended.

So that was why it was issued as a warrant complaint.

But both women end up in the hospital.

There's very severe trauma.

It's very bloody.

Picture carry, times two.

It was, it was pretty, pretty significant injuries.

And you're saying it was pretty bloody and stuff like that based off like photographs you may have seen?

Yeah, there were like 500 photographs of all of the injuries, the blood trails, the puddles of blood everywhere.

It was, it was pretty gruesome.

So these two women, do they, do they know each other?

What's their relationship with each other?

They do.

It's a mother and a daughter.

The client just kind of knows them through, through the grapevine.

They've hung out a couple of times, would consider him a friend.

So when you said that they met the client at Target, did they plan to meet him there or they just ran into him there?

They, they say, and this will change periodically throughout the course of the story.

But the original statement is that he meets them there, goes with them to the pharmacy in Target and pays for the oxycodone prescription that one of them has.

Well, yes.

So how did the whole, did they have a story of the, of the fallout of how that guy goes from buying them oxycodone to hitting them with a baseball bat?

No.

And that was one of the biggest holes in the story is he just, according to them, pulls the baseball bat out of his pants and starts beating the crap out of them.

Yeah.

Basically daughter says that she was like microwaving spaghetti and she turns around and he stood up and he's wailing on her mom with, I mean, they say a baseball bat.

Sometimes they say a cane.

Sometimes they say a club.

Sometimes they're not really consistent about it.

So.

And does he take the oxycodone, I guess, or anything?

The, the woman who runs out for his mom, uh, takes it with her.

That's in, instead of, uh, tending to her daughter who is allegedly being beaten.

Uh, she assumes to death with a baseball bat.

She brings the oxy over to a neighbor's house and immediately gives it to him.

I was going to say, yeah, if you're going to save one thing, if you're going to save one thing from being stolen, it's going to be the oxys for sure.

So, um, so how's your client end up getting arrested then, or what happens next?

So they call the police.

They say your client beat him with the baseball bat.

The police come.

How do they get what's next in the process of what leading up to your client's arrest?

So they get a statement from these women, uh, at the hospital and it's a very small town.

So they, they're able to take action really quickly and they put out an attempt to locate.

Um, they do a pretty thorough search through, uh, through the small town.

And then they, uh, call the, the midgy police department in the Beltrami County Sheriff's office and have them respond to the place that they believe our client, uh, is living.

Um, and actually our, our client had told us about how, um, he had been in bed and, and the police had knocked on his door, but he didn't want to answer it because he had recently gotten out of custody.

Uh, and didn't want anything to do with the police at this point.

So this was the only time we've ever been like, but if you had only answered the door for the cops, if you had only answered.

Um, but they didn't have a warrant at that point.

And so they didn't, they weren't able to enter the house.

And so, um, he is, is out for a couple of days.

It becomes pretty big news.

Um, and, uh, eventually they do get a warrant for the house.

Um, and I, Sarah can go into, into a little bit more detail on this one.

Yeah.

I think they, so they get a warrant and they go and arrest it.

Unfortunately, I think they find our client hiding between the mattresses in the bedroom.

Um, and they place them under, but he also, I mean, he was, he was on bail in Beltrami.

Um, yeah, yeah.

So what he's in between the mattresses.

Like what does I, one bed, one mattress.

What exactly are we talking about here with in between the mattresses?

So he's like, he's high.

He's trying to avoid being arrested.

Right.

Hiding in between the mattress and the box spring.

Um, and the police tear the apartment apart and they find him.

Um, and they arrest him on both of his warrants, but because he's in Beltrami, they take him

to deal with his Beltrami cases first, which is an escape from custody and, uh, possessing

a gun charge.

So.

Oh my God.

That, that totally just reminds me of when I'm playing hide and go seek with my kids in

the house and my kids like sitting under the mattress and I walk in.

Oh no, I can't find you.

Who's shoe is this sticking out of the mattress.

I'm not saying it was a very well thought out plan in any way, shape or form.

Okay.

So then that's how your client gets arrested.

And you said he had to handle his other case first in Beltrami, right?

Yeah.

He, uh, he had a felony case over in Beltrami that he had to, had to deal with and, and,

uh, ended up serving some time on, um, which it delayed our case pretty significantly.

But luckily he was in Beltrami, uh, in Bemidji, um, because that was how I ran into him initially.

So tell us about your initial meeting with, uh, your client.

So I, this is, this is the client that both Sarah and I have represented kind of forever.

Um, we really like him.

He's very near and dear to our hearts.

Um, and I saw him in with a couple of investigators and I knew that he was going to be on, uh, on the calendar later.

And I needed to talk with him cause I was the attorney of the day or something.

Um, and so I knocked on the door and asked the investigators if I could just have a second with them, uh, or with him.

And they declined and got a little, a little sassy with me.

Um, and so I looked at him and I said, you know, uh, do you want to talk to them?

Don't you want to assert your right to remain silent?

And he kind of looked at me and I was nodding and he was like, yeah.

And I was like, and you want to talk to an attorney, don't you?

And he was like, I do.

And so they had to, they had to give up and leave.

And they wrote a police report about it.

And it was on my wall for several years, um, that a woman purporting to be his attorney had showed up and ruined everything essentially.

So, um, so that was how I kind of got involved in the case.

And I had been moving over, uh, to be the attorney sort of for this, for Clearwater.

Uh, and so it just timed out really well.

And, but yeah, that, that police report, uh, was framed for a while.

Yeah.

That's a, that's a badge of honor right there.

I thought so.

I don't know that they, but I thought so.

Um, so picked up the case and, and brought it to the office and, and said, Hey, let's get going on this.

And so, okay, cool.

Tell us about the getting assigned the case and, uh, your investigation.

I mean, did you, did you talk to the client that first day or did you like, where will you tell me what happens next?

So I knew that he was looking at these charges because it was a pretty big deal.

Um, and I had heard kind of on the news and stuff about what happened.

And so he and I chatted about that.

He immediately asserted his innocence, told me he didn't do it.

He didn't know what had happened, but some bad people were out to get him.

And so I talked with our amazing investigator.

Um, and she and I went through the case.

Uh, I pulled my first co-counsel on, uh, my co-counsel, Matt.

Uh, and so he and I went through everything and we interviewed a client's girlfriend at the time who was going to provide him an alibi.

Uh, she was, she was in the apartment with him when the police had knocked and he had said, don't answer it.

Um, and then we also were able to get, uh, his mom and sister, uh, to give statements that they had seen him shortly before this would have happened.

And then shortly after, uh, and he wasn't upset.

He wasn't in distress.

There was no marks on his face.

And we also pulled the booking photo from when he was taken into custody about a week later, just to show that there was no, there were no marks on his face that would have been consistent with being smacked in the face with a brick.

You said you pulled the photos to see if anybody would see if he was smacked with a brick or the victims were smacked with a brick.

Uh, we pulled the booking photo from when he was arrested from between the mattresses when he was the, the middle of that mattress Oreo.

Um, and he got arrested.

We, we pulled that booking photo to make sure that, you know, a week later there was nothing on his face and we could show that he hadn't been, he hadn't been hit with a brick.

So it couldn't have been him.

So the victim said they fought back and hit, hit him with a brick then.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Wait, wait, a brick, a brick in the kitchen.

There was a brick in the kitchen.

When one ran to the, to the neighbors to give the oxy, another one ran outside and was running around and he was allegedly chasing them.

Um, and she picked up a brick and hit him in the face.

What's her story.

Did they recover the brick at the, at the scene?

No.

You know, I don't think she told the investigators until maybe a week or two later about the brick part of it.

They weren't really looking for it that night, but they never went back to see if they could find it.

Can you get more specific about the attack?

It's just like, he just pulled out a baseball bat, started beating everybody.

The mom and the, they run outside.

He chases them outside, hits them some more.

So they, at some point someone hits a brick.

Is there any other details that we're missing?

That's honestly it.

I mean, that, that was part of the problem with this case is they, they never took a very detailed statement from either of the women.

Um, mom only ever spoke to the cops when she was in the hospital being treated at the ER.

Daughter gave a partial statement at the ER and a little bit of a follow up statement a couple of weeks later.

But they never got more detailed than, you know, out of nowhere, he pulled a bat out.

He started beating on mom.

Then he started beating on daughter.

Um, and then mom fled.

He followed daughter, continued to beat on her, and then he ran away.

So then, um, going back to your investigation.

So you, you interviewed the, the, the family that say he was acting cool.

He doesn't have an injury on his face.

And you, did you, you interviewed the girlfriend.

Did you say that?

Or do I just know that?

We, we interviewed the girlfriend because she was going to provide us an alibi.

Okay.

And she said that he was with her when the cops knocked on the door.

Yep.

And she maintained that through the entire case.

They ended up breaking up when he, he ended up going to prison on his, uh, his other charge.

Um, and she, she maintained, she had gotten back with an old boyfriend and, and, uh, you know,

said, Hey, this is really uncomfortable, but this is what happened.

And so she was a really good alibi witness because she didn't, she didn't have any reason to lie.

Did your client indicate why he thought that the, these two women were saying he, she, he beat them.

Or was there a reason why they were saying he, they're saying he did it when he didn't do it.

And I'm trying to get the kind of the best way to figure out the best way to phrase this.

But, um, there was maybe some information that he was encroaching on somebody's territory, um, and doing something in somebody's territory that he shouldn't have been doing.

Um, and, um, this, someone being kind of like a bigger criminal organization.

And so kind of the theory going in was that, um, this was a two birds with one stone because mom had, um, so daughter had actually, um, OD'd a few days or a few weeks earlier.

Um, and mom had offered at that point to law enforcement to name some names.

Um, and so the kind of working theory was that, you know, this was an attack on them and then blame our client for it as kind of a two birds, one stone sort of thing.

That's a tough, that's a tough theory to put together for a jury though.

It wasn't going to be the best jury presentation you had ever heard.

No.

We ultimately abandoned.

That's a good story though.

It's a good story.

I like it.

Ultimately abandoned that theory, um, shortly before trial, um, and for a theory, for something that was more along the lines of.

The, they were so high, they had no idea what's going on.

The CIA had a chip in their heads and making everyone get the better one.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

That's the 4G networks they're putting on up here.

It cost everything.

Yeah.

Damn it, Bill Gates.

Hey, so, so how did you sell it to your client that you needed to abandon that theory?

Did you tell him, you know, we subpoenaed the crime boss.

He didn't show up.

So we're going to have to abandon the theory on that one.

We went, we went down to Luigi's restaurant.

Um, I think we, we mostly just said, hey, they're going to hate you even more.

And he was like, okay.

I mean, the, one of the things about this client is he had complete confidence the entire time in Sarah and I.

And so if we told him, hey, we're going to do this thing.

He was like, yeah, okay.

He was very trusting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, okay.

So what happened next in the, in the development of the defense in this case?

So, uh, he ends up going down to prison.

And so we, we lose him for a while.

So he's in prison.

Um, he's down there for a couple of months.

This allegedly happens in November of 2017.

Uh, he goes to prison that summer.

And then I think we ridded him up for his first appearance in October or November.

So about a year later, he makes his first appearance, gets conditions of release, um, but is doing a pretty significant prison sentence.

So, um, we're not, you know, we're not in any hurry.

So we send him back down.

Um, I think at this point, my co-counsel, uh, quits the public defender's office.

And, uh, I panic, um, badly and, uh, beg Sarah, who is very, very, very busy was carrying, I think the heaviest caseload in our office at that point, beg her, uh, to come and be my co-counsel.

Because, you know, we, we always have fun when we're doing cases and, you know, we do good cop, bad cop really well.

And, and she, thank God she agrees.

And so she gets on the case, uh, we kind of review everything, make a game plan, um, bring him up.

We talked with him a lot on the phone and continue to like do investigation and just wade through all the discovery.

Cause there's, you know, lots of videos and, and whatever to watch.

And then we went and saw him the summer, almost two years after it happened.

We saw him over the summer.

And what, what made you decide to go, to go visit him?

Um, you know, I think we just needed a more of a face to face interaction to really nail down, you know, number one, here's the offer.

Number two, here's worst case scenario.

So the offer from the get go was 10 years and that never changed.

Worst case scenario was somewhere around 25 years.

And we just needed to make sure that he was, you know, seriously engaging with all of the evidence, seriously engaging with the potential consequences.

At that point, we just needed to touch base with him and see him face to face and, and express to him kind of the stakes.

All right.

All right.

So road trip time.

Huh?

Ladies.

So much more fun than it was.

How far, how far is the prison from, uh, where are you, where you guys are at?

About five and a half hours.

Are you driving it right now flying driving?

We are driving on the hottest day of the year.

Um, which, you know, for us was like 115 or something.

I know for you guys, that's probably not that bad.

But when it, I mean, in Minnesota, that's like, that's the worst thing that could possibly happen.

You can always put on more clothes, but you can only take off so many.

So we, uh, we drove down and, uh, with the top down.

Oh God.

No.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

And then, uh, so how'd you entertain yourselves for five, six hours?

What, what music are we listening to?

What snacks do we bring?

What's tell us about the road trip.

This is your first road trip together, right?

I mean, I imagine you're just coworkers at this point, but really, this is, this is

a big, you're spending together all of a sudden.

Strangely enough, not our first road trip together.

Whoa.

Okay.

Our longest road trip together.

Yeah.

So we, uh, we jammed out to Taylor Swift and, uh, you know, listen to this to get our,

listen to another not guilty to get our, like, you know, our, uh, our righteous indignation

flowing.

Did you really listen to the podcast?

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

I think, I think at some point I turned to Katie and I was like, if we win this case,

we're going on the podcast.

Yeah.

We made that agreement, uh, that day.

Did you see a shooting star after you said that?

I mean, we might've seen a fireball.

It was really warm.

I don't know.

As a bright, like opening of the clouds and the sun shined on us for just a second.

So then tell us about when you get to the facility and you see your client.

Uh, what was that like?

It was, I mean, it was really nice to see him.

We hadn't for about a year, we hadn't seen him in person.

And so it was great to see him.

Our first impression was horrible though, because he had grown a protest beard or something.

It looked like, it looked like he was homeless and, and it was, it looked like pubic hair.

Um, which both Sarah and I said, and we're both like, oh, is that appropriate to say to him?

But it was like, no, he needs to know.

Um, and so we saw him and we talked through the discovery and, and he was really, uh, receptive to what we had to say.

And we tossed around a couple of offers we might offer back to the prosecutor.

Um, because you know, when you hear numbers that high, it's just, it's staggering.

And I think that that really kind of woke him up to how serious it was because it had just been sort of hypothetical at that point.

And so we, we talked through that and he, he did say, you know, if, if we can get to this number, I might consider settling, but I didn't do it.

And we were like, well, okay, then let's just go to trial.

Um, and so we chatted with him and then we, uh, when we left, we, uh, drove and I got a puppy.

So it was, it was a really good day.

I got to road trip with one of my best friends.

I got a puppy, you know, we got to see our client.

Where was the puppy at?

Well, we thought close to the prison, but it turns out on the other side of the state.

So Katie says now that she thinks it was close to the prison.

I fully maintain that she lied to me when she told me that.

And she's just like, it's really close to the prison.

And then we pump it into our, punch it into the GPS.

And it's a town called sleepy eye, Minnesota, but like the rural farm area outside of sleepy eye, Minnesota.

And it's about a two hour drive in not at all the same direction that we need to go when we go home.

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So, okay.

So you guys visit the client.

You got a puppy.

You come back.

And then what happens next in the case?

Well, things are good.

We're, you know, we're moving along.

We were feeling really good.

And then our alibi witness dies.

We got a call.

We got a call.

Our investigator called me on a Saturday, which is never a good thing.

And, and, and she said, you know, this, this witness is dead.

And so Sarah and I said a lot of four letter words.

And I freaked out.

Sarah can attest to me freaking out.

Um, because it had been the day after we told the state who our alibi witness was.

And so we told them Friday and then Saturday she was dead.

So I called Sarah in a bit of a panic.

This is, I mean, this is your client's ex-girlfriend, I guess.

Right.

That was going to say that client was with her all night.

And first Katie freaks out and goes full conspiracy theory on me until we find out that this was not some sort of hit, but, um, she died of an asthma attack, which just sounds really weird, but she's actually had severe asthma all her life.

And so she died of an asthma attack.

So we start freaking out about how to handle the case.

And I think file a motion to try and get it in under the, her statement in under the residual hearsay exception.

Cause that's the only one that we can try and make fit.

Did you guys tell the client about her passing or read, did you break the news to him?

Yeah, he heard it from us.

What was his reaction?

He was really sad.

They had been pretty consistently on and off for a long time.

And, and even though they weren't together, I think he still cared about her very much.

He's really big hearted guy.

I mean, he's.

Yeah.

He would, he would talk about how he held her in his arms as she had a pretty severe asthma attack before and thought she was dying.

So he would, he told us about that a few times and that was a really upsetting memory for him.

And then that, you know, bringing up her death and all that kind of stuff.

So he was pretty heartbroken.

Okay.

And then what happens next in the case?

What about the, the, the pre-trial motions in Lemony with the, with the court?

What were the pre-trial motions in this case?

You know, the big arguments that we had on motion in Lemony is there were two pieces of evidence that the state had that even though we were, you know, two and a half years into the case, they had not turned over.

And that was target surveillance and medical records from the ER visit and from, they were taken to the local ER and then taken to Fargo for more in-depth treatment.

And we didn't have any of those medical records.

What we're asking is the judge to exclude the evidence, exclude testimony about the evidence or do other sort of discovery sanctions for them not turning it over.

Cause you, cause you haven't even seen the target surveillance.

You just, okay, great.

So what is, what does the judge rule or how does the prosecutor respond?

By the time we get in front of the judge, we, the target surveillance has been disclosed to us.

So we like file our motion and the prosecutor freaks out and the chief of police goes and gets the target surveillance again.

Um, and so we have that and it's super helpful for us.

It's exculpatory.

Our client is nowhere on the surveillance.

In fact, all you see is mom and daughter pull up, go in, daughter pays for the prescription with her own cash out of her own wallet, and then they leave.

Um, and so I believe we threw in a motion to dismiss for, um, losing that evidence, but we never got a ruling on that because of what happened later with the trial.

Wait, losing that from losing that evidence.

So they, they got the surveillance two years earlier and never turned it over.

And then it mysteriously went missing and then we filed our motion and then it mysteriously reappeared.

So is your motion, is it, is it based upon Brady then the failure to provide exculpatory evidence?

Brady and then just an extreme discovery sanction.

Like they lost, you know, exculpatory evidence.

They were trying to hide it from us.

You should throw this case out.

Yeah.

And it's unclear if it was at the prosecutor's office or at the police office.

It, it, it just never got to us after two and a half years of asking.

And there are emails back and forth and, and several requests were made.

And so we, we put in a Brady request that it'd be dismissed.

Oh, okay.

Um, and the judge said.

Never ruled on it.

Oh, never ruled on it.

Um, the judge didn't throw it out.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

I know.

Wow.

Wow.

Prosecution and the detectives and the police not turning over evidence showing your clients

innocent.

Wow.

Yeah.

Unheard of.

Um, so, okay.

So what's the other motion then that you guys filed and thought?

Um, is because, so it's kind of a two-parter.

It's again, lack of disclosure.

Like they haven't turned over medical records.

The prosecutor tells us on record at that time that they have medical records and they are

in possession of medical records.

So we're asking both that, again, there be some sort of discovery sanction that the state

not be allowed to use the medical records and that they not be allowed to call the ER nurse

who treated the two women as a witness because without her medical records, we can't prepare

to cross-examine her.

Okay.

So then what, uh, how's this hearing go?

How does the, you said at the hearing that the prosecutor then says, oh, I have the medical

records.

Yep.

Judge says, get the medical records to them right away.

He says, um, I'm going to let the ER nurse testify, but we will volunteer her before she testifies

to see if she's reviewed her records before coming in.

Um, so that, you know, what, depending, so whether her, she's testimony based, testifying

based on her memory or based on having recently reviewed her records.

Um, and then he says, you know, depending on what she has to say about that, I'll read,

readdress the issue at that time.

So the judges, I mean, so right now there's no adverse penalty to the prosecution for not,

never giving you the records.

Correct.

All right.

So what happens next?

COVID.

Yup.

COVID happens.

So, uh, we're, we're ready for trial.

Uh, it's the Friday before trial.

Sarah and I have spent a significant amount of time prepping for this case.

And Friday at four, we get a call from the court administrator saying, just kidding.

We're not going to trial on Monday.

Um, we'll let you know when this gets, when this gets, uh, gets put back on the calendar.

Oh, Sarah, how was Katie with the conspiracy theories now?

Oh, man.

This goes all the way to the chief justice of the Supreme Court.

Suspended jury trial.

They're just trying to keep us down.

This COVID stuff is all made up so that the state can avoid going to trial on this case.

So yeah, we drank that weekend.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you do?

That was, that was tough.

That was, I also was about to go to trial too with a client and then COVID happened.

So is your client sitting locally in county jail while you guys are waiting for trial?

He's not in prison, right?

Is that messing up with his credit training?

His.

No, the, because, because of COVID, um, they were pretty open for if he wanted to stay here,

he could stay here.

If he wanted to go back, he could go back.

Um, but he had to make up his mind and he decided to stay local so that we could prep for trial.

And, and is, I think the only person who got fit during COVID, he was doing like 2000 pushups a day.

And, you know, we see him again, kind of when COVID is, is in its full swing and everyone, you know, had the COVID 15, except for him.

And it was just like, are you kidding me right now?

It was funny.

Cause like when he, we were getting him trial closed for the first trial, he told us his size and we were like, really buddy?

Like you've been on prison food for like six months now.

Are you sure about that?

And sure enough, nothing that we got fit.

Um, but then by the time we, we made it back to trial, he had lost all of his DOC weight and he was back to his weight before he went in and he had shaved the beard.

That was a big thing.

I appreciate you made that, that client confidentiality and not telling us your client's weight.

The very professional of you there.

Yeah.

So did, did anything on that case happen during the COVID break or you guys just kind of just sat in limbo?

Did you?

Nothing happened.

Well, you reviewed, you reviewed the medical records, right?

Oh wait, no, no, we didn't.

Uh, so twist, it turned out the state did not disclose the medical records.

Um, which we had asked for, for months and months and months and months.

And then, and had in March had been told that they existed.

And then, uh, you know, we get to July and still nothing.

Well, what's going, what, what's the story behind all that?

I wish I knew.

Yeah.

I honestly wish I knew.

We get back to, so we, we get back, you know, scheduled on for trial.

We get back for motions and eliminate argument again.

And this time we're like going for broke on these medical records stuff.

We're like, judge, this is now ridiculous that it was two and a half years already.

And six months ago, you told them to give us these records and they have not.

And then the prosecutor claims at that point that he never had medical records.

Um, contrary to what he told the judge exactly six months ago.

And the judge gets very frustrated with him and kind of takes under advisement our request

to, you know, again, dismiss the case, preclude evidence, preclude the ER nurse from testifying.

And, um, the next day or no later that day, he emails us the medical records that have been

sitting in his office for two years.

And I will say at the hearing where we were going for broke and, uh, you know, we're doing

a pretty good job.

Um, he did agree in that, that he would not use medical records and would not call his witness.

Um, so we had an agreement from the prosecutor on record that he wouldn't use it.

Um, and lo and behold, later, uh, shortly thereafter, he, he sent the records.

Well, is there anything in the milk records for you?

Yes.

I mean, this is great though, because the fact that he's not bringing in medical records before

we get to answer Dennis's question, he's not bringing in medical records means that they're

gonna have a difficult time proving the severity of the injury, which is what takes it puts this

case up to the 25 year range.

So that's, I mean, that's sort of a relief on some level right there.

And then, but then as Dennis asked, you reviewed the records and what'd you find?

So we, first we sent them to Katie's mom, who's an ER nurse.

Cause this was at this point before trial.

So we needed to know, I mean, we're, we're not doctors.

We're not nurses.

We can't read those records.

We just needed to know, like, were these women about to die or were they fine?

And Katie's mom looks at him and was like, they were fine.

They weren't going to die.

Um, and so then we reach out to a wonderful nonprofit that has worked with our office before.

And I think works with PD is across the nation.

Um, and we asked, we got approved for funding for her to review the medical records.

And she says the same thing.

She says they were in more danger of dying because of their chemical use issues than they were from what happened, um, that night.

And then from their injuries that night.

What organization has, are you guys talking, are you talking about?

This is nurses for social justice.

Donate if you can.

Yes.

Nurses for social justice.

Yeah.

They are fantastic.

They, I, I have gone to them a few times.

Can help me in my non-science, non-medical brain understand all of these medical stuff and are really speedy and really care about doing it from the perspective of making sure that indigent clients have access to medical experts.

So we got her opinion to the prosecutor and, and, uh, and then the other issue we ran into is because of COVID and because they're a national organization, she was in New York.

Um, and so we did a, because the, the records had been disclosed, we did another Brady violation.

Um, and the, and then a motion to allow her testimony via zoom.

Um, and so the, the head prosecutor pulled Sarah and I into his office and was like, Hey, what if you drop your Brady motion and we agree to your zoom motion.

And that was really what we had been angling for.

That was why we filed it the way that we did.

Um, and so we're like, uh, again, we're like, Oh, maybe we'll really think about it.

I guess maybe we could do that.

And then we're like, yeah, we can.

So, uh, we led him on for a while and, and we got what we wanted.

At this time, I'd like to thank and acknowledge our newest members to the A and G Patreon program, Kyle Dugger and Rachel Rogers for their support to the cause.

If you too would like to become a member and receive a shout out on an episode and or the unedited version, which usually contains extra facts analysis and banter, then please visit our website at another not guilty pod.com and click on the Patreon link.

Thank you.

So that's all right.

So it's kind of weird.

Like, you know, it's kind of cool that the prosecutors are saying that we understand that we fucked up.

We didn't bring you guys the records.

We played around with it.

So we're going to agree to not bring any records and we're going to allow your zoom testimony.

What's what's going on with the, the office there or the particular prosecutors?

Are they just being lazy and sloppy?

Like what, what's going on?

This prosecutor, this particular assistant, he had never done a criminal trial before.

Um, and he was not getting support from his supervisor.

So he was thrown to the wolves, the wolves being me and Katie.

Um, and you know, and I think there was a level of not caring about the victims in this case, too, that these were, um, you know, these were addicts.

These were poor indigent women.

And there wasn't, you know, nobody in the community was caring about what happened to them.

So there wasn't the let's make sure all our ducks are in the row on the victims behalf in this case, as much as they weren't willing to like deal on the case because the victims didn't want it, the alleged victims didn't want it.

Um, there wasn't a lot of, you know, caring about what actually happened to these women.

All right.

Well, let's, let's move on then.

So, uh, what happens next?

Trial.

Actually, what happens before trial is we have a fashion show show with our client in the garage of the jail.

Yes.

Where he tries on.

Can I say this, Katie?

Yeah.

Can I say what clothes?

Yeah.

He tries on Katie's husband's suits.

And all of Katie's husband's dress clothes.

Nice.

Because that is the size that he was at this point.

And he comes out and we're telling him the right shirt and tie and suit combinations for each day of trial.

So that is the next thing that happens is we have a fun little fashion show in the cold ass, um, garage at the Clearwater County jail.

Well, dude, shout out to Katie's husband.

So you're saying after this guy, after doing 2000 pushups a day, got into Katie's husband's type shape.

Is that what we're saying?

Like, I don't know how to say this in a not creepy way.

So I'm just not going to, I'm just going to move on to trial now.

He's supposed to say he's in Katie's.

Yeah.

I'm comfortable with this conversation.

Huh?

All right.

So then, uh, what happens?

Okay.

So he's got your client looking good for trial.

Always important to humanize your client.

So the jurors look at him as a human being, which they, they are.

Um, and, uh, so what's happened the next day?

You go to court and what jury selection, jury selection, individual void year because of COVID.

And, uh, we had a smaller than usual jury panel because, uh, the, the questionnaire that we had sent out before basically asked, are you afraid of COVID?

And if you answered yes, then you were immediately excused.

Um, but we went forward.

And so each person would come in, the judge would ask some questions.

We would ask some questions.

The prosecutor would ask some questions and things are going pretty well.

Um, the judge is asking a question that both Sarah and I really liked.

Um, and the judge would ask the, the, the person after, you know, going through some biographical stuff.

Do you believe that, uh, the defendant must have done something wrong?

Otherwise they wouldn't be here.

And that caught a lot of people.

And so we dismissed quite a few for cause, um, like, uh, several, um, and, uh, and the prosecutor wasn't rehabilitating any of them.

And so we're, we're kicking people off.

We're going through our jury.

And then suddenly Sarah and I come to the horrible realization that if we kick too many more people off, we are going to run out of jurors for this case.

And so we start rehabilitating.

And so we had been switching on and off.

I would do morning.

Sarah would do afternoon.

And as we were having lunch, we realized this.

And so we get back in and Sarah starts rehabilitating all the jurors.

Everyone's getting rehabilitated.

Everyone's getting on this jury and, and you can see the judge looking at us and just being like, what is happening right now?

Yeah.

So that the, at the point that we start realizing we're running out of jurors, the state's case is falling apart because the investigating officer texted that she might have been exposed to COVID.

And then she falls off the face of the earth.

And the other law enforcement witness is her husband.

And he has fallen off the face of the earth.

And there's one piece of evidence we haven't talked about yet, which is they do take DNA off of a pop can and a cigarette butt on the table of these women's house.

And it's got our clients DNA on it, but they need the investigator to lay foundation, right?

So that they can get the BCA analyst, the BCA being our crime lab, get the DNA evidence in.

And so at this point, because he can't get ahold of either law enforcement witness, he can't call the BCA person.

And he's left with literally just these two women as witnesses.

And that's an amazing position for us to be in.

And so we're just trying to push through as much as we can, because he, even if he can find his law enforcement witnesses, he had called off the DNA analyst at that point.

So that means that if we can get this to go to trial, they are not getting to put in their DNA evidence.

It's like the, everything's just the stars are lining.

You just got to like, get those jurors sworn in.

So then you start rehabilitating the jurors and saying, these guys are fair.

Well, let's rack them judge.

Or let's.

Yes.

Defense is ready.

So we.

Defense is ready.

We get, we get 12 in the box with one to spare.

We had one extra juror that.

Okay.

We get, we came really close to not being able to have our trial.

And the state is striking, trying to strike people for stupid reasons.

Like he makes a motion to strike somebody because she was at a wedding the previous weekend.

And weddings are where COVID is spreading from mostly these days.

Yeah.

So he's trying really hard to strike them, but he doesn't know how to develop a four cause strike.

And then our final jury panel, we end up with somebody who's a former client of Katie's.

And we end up with somebody who talked at length about how her son was treated poorly by the justice system and teared up and cried when she talked about that.

And they remained on the jury.

And they remained on the jury.

So we have a good jury at this point.

A good jury.

You got witnesses that are unavailable, a bad prosecutor.

You guys got, you got everything going for you.

A judge, a judge that's pissed off at the people.

I mean, that's always great too.

Okay, cool.

So then time for opening statements.

It's time for opening statements.

And I love opening statements.

What can you, can you give us a little bit of your theme or your approach on the opening statement?

Did you lay out your whole case, all the facts?

Or did you keep a little more vague, little wiggle room for yourself there?

It was a little bit of both because I didn't know what evidence was coming in at that point.

It was kind of a mystery.

And so, you know, we talk about how he was 30 miles away and he couldn't have possibly done this.

And this is a horrible tragedy and we are not trying to, to put these women down or minimize what happened to them.

But just because something bad happened, it doesn't mean that you get to just accuse somebody with no evidence.

And so we kind of go through, you know, they really didn't collect evidence and it's all about what you're not going to hear.

And then Sarah found a great tug of war analogy that, you know, it's, it's a tug of war for each element.

And so think of this as a tug of war and, you know, we're, you know, we're way over here and in each one they have to pull you to them.

And it's a new tug of war every time.

And I think she got it from this podcast actually.

Um, so shout out.

Um, but we go through that and, you know, just kind of, kind of established that there are all these other things that could have happened if anybody had bothered to care and look into it and he's not guilty.

And so we, we toss out kind of a whole bunch of theories and see what's going to stick.

I like it.

I like it.

All right.

So let's talk about the rolling out of the evidence.

Uh, who testifies first, you know, in terms of, you don't say every piece of evidence, but who was the most, who testified first for the people.

So instead of starting with a witness to provide context, the prosecutor just plays the body worn video from the responding officer.

So it shows her getting on scene, talking to the neighbor that mom had tried to, or did give her oxy to finding out that the women were in the hospital, going to the hospital and getting their preliminary statements from them at the hospital.

So no context for who any of these people are or anything that they're talking about.

First piece of evidence.

He just plays the video for about half an hour.

So, so, so the first piece of evidence is them fiending for drugs.

Well, and, and there was, I mean, it was, it was prejudicial to us in some ways because I mean, it's them, their faces are all busted up and, um, they're crying and begging for pain medication.

I didn't see the body worn video, but I could just imagine these pill poppers saying, Oh, the pain, uh, the pain, uh, you got any Vicodin?

You know, are you sure you didn't see the video?

Yeah.

Oh, I think only opiates are going to help me with this one.

That is a fairly accurate record.

Yes.

Oh, no, 800 milligram.

Thanks.

At one point, the daughter does start yelling at ER staff who've already told her that she's gotten the most pain meds that they're going to give her.

And she starts just yelling at them that she needs more pain meds.

And if she's not even the focus, like the investigators talking to mom at this point, but you can hear her just like yelling and arguing with the ER staff.

So nice.

Okay.

So that video so far, so good.

Um, what, and what's what happens next in trial?

Then he calls, um, the investigating officer, the main, I mean, she would claim that she was not the primary, but she was the primary.

And so she was the one that took all of the statements.

She got the target surveillance and stuff like that.

And it was a little, so first off, she is testifying in a different room of the courthouse by zoom because she had claimed that she was exposed to COVID.

Um, and Katie starts noticing that she is like looking down at the table while she's testifying.

And she does it one time and we just kind of like, let it roll.

And then she does it a second time.

And we're like, hold up, we got to take a break.

And it turns out she was reading from her reports during the direct examination.

So the judge has to send.

Oh.

Right.

So the judge sends court administration in there, takes her, um, reports physically away from her so that she has to ask for permission before she can refresh her recollection.

Does, did a juror see this?

No.

Um.

But he admonishes her after.

He does.

Yeah, he does.

I mean, and I think they do actually see the court administration go in and take her stuff away from her.

They would have had to have seen that because that was all on video.

Um, and then her testimony gets a lot less clear at that point.

And then she starts testifying about things that are trying to testify about things that have never been disclosed.

So she starts going into this crime stopper tip, which we've never heard anything about.

Um, I object, the judge pulls us into chambers and looks at the prosecutor and says something like, what are you doing?

It looks like you haven't even prepped your witness.

What did the prosecutor say?

Um, yeah, I did.

I totally did.

Um, we can choose to believe him or not.

Or not.

Uh.

He can't stop lying.

Um.

Okay.

What's a crime stopper tip?

Like, what is that?

So it's just like a hotline tip.

Like, crime stoppers is just like the anonymous hotline.

Oh, it's like in the neighborhood.

So he, the cop, the officer saying he got or she got a, a crime stopper tip about your client?

That was where it stopped.

That was where it stopped.

So she.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We.

We still don't know what the tip was or what the information was.

It was because we never got it disclosed.

So I have no idea what that tip was about.

All it was is we received a crime stopper tip and then boom objection.

And then that was the end of her direct testimony.

So.

A crime stopper tip.

I mean, you got beat by somebody.

You don't know who it is.

You needed a crime stopper tip to know who beat you.

Okay.

So you guys go back out in the courtroom after the judge's little scolding of the prosecutor

and what happens next?

Sarah gets to cross her.

To be fair, like I was really excited about this cross because I thought she was going

to fight me a lot because I was going to accuse her of doing a really shitty job with like

every question that I had.

And all of her responses were just agreeing with everything that I said.

It was the tamest cross examination I have ever done where she literally just answered

yes to every single question that I asked.

But it was like, you know, you didn't, you didn't collect the brick.

You didn't get, you know, DNA off of this.

You didn't find the cane or the bat.

You didn't get cell site location information, et cetera, et cetera.

Okay.

All the things they could have done for the gather more evidence in the case that would

have helped the jury make a determination.

All right.

So then who testifies next?

Her husband.

Her husband.

And just, he was the one who took the pictures.

So he laid foundation for, for some of the pictures that were put in of the blood and

the gore and the pop can.

The husband of who?

Whose husband?

Oh, I'm sorry.

The, the other investigating officer.

These two are married.

Oh, okay.

That would have been an important transition that we missed there.

Yeah.

Um, so, uh, so he testifies about the pictures and just kind of his general observations and

it's not really anything life changing or even case changing.

It was quick.

Um, but the prosecutor does put in a picture of a pop can.

Well, that kind of makes it more interesting though.

So when the, were, were the husband and wife duel, like put like blaming the other one for

not doing something?

No, no.

They're thinking.

He was going to do it.

I told him to do it.

It was on his to do list.

No, I told her.

Yeah.

No.

And you know, I will say normally when they work together, they actually are a pretty good,

pretty good team.

Um, this just fell apart.

This whole case just fell apart.

And there's a lot of blame that can be apportioned.

Um, but so the prosecutor puts in this picture of this pop can, this Sprite can, and Sarah

and I are both looking at each other like, but that's the DNA pop can.

That's the one that they collected our client's DNA off of that.

He can't, he can't tie to anything.

So in evidence, there is just a picture of a Sprite can that doesn't tie to anything.

Just a fun fact.

Yeah.

And the other thing is like, instead of using regular size pictures, like you would normally

do, like, here is the picture.

This is what goes back to the jury.

He's gotten printed all of his pictures out on these two by three poster boards and thinks

he's going to send it back to the jury room as an exhibit for deliberation.

All these like gory ass pictures on two foot by three foot poster boards.

And they were, and so there was a big argument about that.

And they were bad.

Like the, there is a picture of a nail that's falling off.

And I gagged every time I saw it.

Every single time.

Show me brain matter.

Show me a gunshot wound.

A nail falling off is going to get me every time.

Like a, like a fingernail.

Yeah.

It was horrible.

Right.

So, um, so we get through that witness and then, uh, the mother testifies.

Uh, and how's that go?

Well, before we can start, or sorry, the daughter testifies before we can start with that.

Um, we have to go do another motion lemonade about how far the prosecutor can go in his examination

of these women.

Because Sarah has the brilliant idea, um, that we need to do a motion lemonade to suppress

any additional evidence of their continuing injury because it's not been disclosed.

And so we make that motion.

Oh, oh, like they, like they still have injuries today or what, like something like that or whatever

it was, they can't talk about their injuries.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

So basically it all starts when the prosecutor says he wants to figure out a way that the

women can walk through the jury, like the jury area.

I can't say jury box cause they're actually in the audience cause this is COVID, but he basically

wants the women to be their own demonstrative, demonstrative exhibits about what their injuries

look like now.

And he wants the jury to be able to see what their injuries look like now.

And so we object to that because there have not been any pictures.

There has not been any disclosure or follow up medical reports or anything.

So we asked the judge to preclude any evidence about their injuries that has not already been

disclosed, which at this point is the pictures and their initial statements to law enforcement.

Yeah.

So those are the, and he grants it.

So this is the point where he is so, he's gotten so fed up at this lack of organization,

lack of preparedness, lack of disclosure, that he grants it without a second thought.

And they are limited to talking only about the injuries as they existed that day.

And what they've already told law enforcement is their injuries on that day.

How do the witnesses come into the court and testify in front of the jury?

If the jury is not to see them walk?

Well, they can walk fine.

Well, they can walk fine.

I mean, mom has MS.

So she's a little like shaky on her feet.

And she uses a cane.

But I mean, and we're observing social distancing protocols.

So the jurors are not allowed within six feet of them as they're walking into the courtroom.

There's a six feet corridor on each side.

And so the big concern is like, we don't want to see scars on their faces, which may or may

not exist.

I still to this day don't know how scarred their faces might be.

And then we don't want to, mom had to have a plate put in her elbow.

And so we don't want her to talk about any limited range of motion in her elbow.

And we don't want them to talk about any potential nerve damage because the cuts were so deep on their

face that it caused nerve damage.

Those are because each of those things are first degree assault, right?

Or are approaching great bodily harm.

And we don't want that to go to the jury.

Or even mentioning she has a plate in her elbow, right?

Right.

Correct.

Because that was in the medical records.

And so that those medical records have been excluded.

And so they shouldn't, you know, she shouldn't be able to testify about the same information.

So that's a great, that's a great motion.

That was a great motion.

That was, I mean, when we really felt like we might, we might pull this off.

We had at the, one of the preliminary hearings asked for the judge to grant us lesser included.

And he had said that he was going to wait till the end of our case.

But we had asked for a third degree assault.

And if the client had, if those had ended up coming in, the prosecutor objected, if those had ended up coming in, it's very likely he could have been convicted of that because the evidence could have supported that.

But at this point, the judge has essentially said the evidence does not support a first degree.

So, you know, we still have, we still have argument to make, but Sarah and I are feeling pretty good at this point.

Yeah.

All right.

So what happens next in trial?

Oh, so they testify though, right?

Yeah.

And how does that go though?

You said the daughter went first, right?

The daughter went first.

You know, the prosecutor spends a good third of the examination walking through the five times the daughter shot up with heroin that day.

Um, which was way more than we would have ever been allowed to get into.

But her, I mean, her testimony is really like, yeah, I got up in the morning and I shot up and then I went to go meet with my friend and I shot up in the car and then I drove here.

And then, you know, I picked up client and then I got home and I shot up some more.

Um, and then he takes her very, very briefly through the bare bones statement that she gave no additional information, just her saying, um, you know, I was making my spaghetti.

I saw him beating on my mom.

Then he came after me and I hit him in the face with a brick.

So who cross-examined her?

Sarah.

And yeah.

And the, I mean, I wish I could say that I did this like wonderful, like Perry Mason cross-examination, but there was so little information.

There that it was really just like, there were some statements that she made that were slightly inconsistent.

I was confirming her and I held her down on the, um, on the brick because that was a big thing.

Cause our client didn't have injuries to his face or anything like that.

Um, and then just kind of let it be because at this point, less is more in the case.

What about the issue, uh, does she say that they were at target earlier that day?

Yes.

So, and at that point she changes her testimony to claim that he stayed in the car the whole time.

Um, because we, you know, at that point we did, we did play the target surveillance showing that he is nowhere in target with them.

So she changed her story to say, yeah, he stayed in the car the whole time.

He didn't go into target with us.

We picked him up somewhere else.

We didn't meet him there.

Um, and so kind of just impeaching her with that's the exact opposite of what she said when she talked to the cops before.

Um, but did she identify your client in, in, in the courtroom?

Yes.

Oh yeah.

They're friends.

They knew each other.

I mean, and she identified him by name, um, right away, uh, during the investigation.

So, you know, I would have, I would have shown her a six pack that had a picture of him and Katie's husband in it to see if he could differentiate between the two.

You're going to like make me get in trouble with the ethics board for something that did not happen and would have never happened.

So I'm just throwing that out there.

All right.

So what happens next in trial?

Uh, the mother testifies.

Okay.

And how does that go?

Pretty much the exact same.

Uh, there are inconsistencies.

We hold her to, um, um, it's not, it's, she's very upset.

Uh, one point she starts trying to be like, and he took off part of my finger.

And, you know, normally the person who's crossing objects, but Sarah just like jumped up and was like objection.

And then.

So it was, it was, that was the only part that was at all exciting.

Um, you know, we, we.

So Sarah objected during your cross.

Yeah, she sure did.

She sure did.

Um.

She's been butting in a lot during this conversation, by the way.

You know, I feel like she has something against me now.

Like.

Yeah.

Like, yeah.

She kind of just jumps in a lot.

Uh huh.

Got a big head after I begged her to be my second chair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So at this point, uh, we, we get through a cross with mom.

It's nothing exceptional.

Um, nothing interesting happens.

And I think the state rested after that.

Nice.

All right.

So then the state of the evidence is looking pretty good, right?

So they don't, the medical records, the injuries didn't come in.

So the state rests.

Now it's time for a motion to dismiss.

After the people finish presenting their evidence in rest, defense counsel always makes a motion

to dismiss the charges, also known as a motion for directed verdict or judgment of acquittal,

which the court will grant if the prosecution has failed to present evidence to substantiate

any element of the charged crime.

It was amazing.

It was the best thing I've ever seen in my life.

Um, Sarah had spent the last 30 minutes, like, furiously scribbling.

And I knew that she had been working on it the night before, but I didn't understand the magnificence that I was about to experience.

Um, so I'll let Sarah, uh, enlighten you.

It was amazing.

So I had kind of, you know, both in preparation for this motion to dismiss thinking, hoping

that the state's case was going to fall apart this way.

And because we were making that motion to have the lesser included third degree charges go

to the jury.

Um, I had gone and looked up every single case in the state of Minnesota that talked about

sufficient evidence for first degree assault, which isn't as many as like, it sounds like

there should be.

There was maybe a dozen cases or so.

Um, and there are, I mean, there are four categories of first degree assault.

There's, you know, injuries likely to cause death.

Injuries that cause substantial permanent disfigurement.

Injuries that cause a permanent or long-term loss of function in an appendage or an organ.

And other serious bodily injury.

So kind of like this catch all.

And kind of mapped out in each of, for each of these categories, what were, what are examples

of the types of injuries that the court found sufficient and insufficient, um, under each

of these categories.

And then I had about three like handwritten pages that then it became time for motion for

judgment of acquittal.

And I went through that kind of like line by line and case by case with the judge, um,

walking him through each one of the cases and sufficient versus insufficient.

And why, you know, clearly there wasn't any evidence that they were about to die.

There was no evidence that they were disfigured.

There was no evidence that they had any sort of long-term impairment.

And so the question was, is this other serious bodily injury?

And, um, the judge, you know, we, I made the argument and the judge was like, okay,

I've read some of those cases.

Some of them are new to me.

So he took a break to read more of the cases.

And we took a break to prep our, our, um, our witnesses a little bit more.

Our investigator who was going to read the alibi and stuff like that.

And gosh, how long did we wait, Katie?

Two hours.

Like an hour.

It was like almost two hours.

You guys didn't spend the whole two hours prepping your investigator though.

That seems like kind of basic.

What else did you guys do in that two hours?

We showed our investigator pictures of the kittens that Katie rescued.

What?

What?

So a funny thing happened on the way to the jury trial.

Um, so I was on the road driving and two kittens ran out in front of my car and I couldn't

just leave them there.

Cause it's, you know, Minnesota and it's cold.

And so I called our other investigator at like six 30 in the morning being like, I need

you to take these kittens that I found.

And she's like, what?

And it's like, I, I have kittens.

I have trial.

I need you to take the kittens.

And so I drove them to her house and, and she took them.

And then, uh, we spent a lot of the day and a lot of the downtime trying to rehome the

kittens.

So we, we rescued a puppy.

We rescued the kittens.

You know, it was, it was a whole, whole thing.

Did you tell your client about the kid?

Oh yeah.

He was super into them.

He, he thought that that was great.

He thought it was good luck.

He was helping us name them.

He was trying to like pawn them off on the bailiff.

Like he was, he was really working.

I think that was the first thing that I showed him when I walked in the courtroom.

It was like, good morning client.

Look at the kitties.

I mean, I worked really hard on your case, but look at these kittens, you know?

Yeah.

The kittens are more important.

We'll get to the next 25 years of your life later.

Let's talk about the, I'll do, I'll deal with the lingo, the legal jump mumbo jumbo, but

these cats.

Well, and he kept making, he kept making cat puns.

I just think that this is important because like at one point the bailiff said something.

He's like, you've got something on your shirt.

He's like, you've got to be kitten me.

It's just like, Oh no, we're going to lose.

You're going to spend the rest of your life in jail for that.

What about when you were cross-examinated witnesses?

Meow.

Meow.

Meow.

Meow.

Look at me.

What was that?

Super troopers, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I needed to be here right meow.

See how many times we could have done that.

No, we didn't, but we should have.

Damn professionalism.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you wait for two hours.

The judge calls you back into the courtroom, right?

To let you know of his ruling and what happens next.

So the judge takes us through a roller coaster ride.

So he starts out with his ruling and he looks at client and he's like client.

I want you to know the standard.

I can only, you know, grant this motion.

If no reasonable jury could find you guilty of these charges.

So, of course, Katie and I are like messaging back and forth on our message program.

Like, oh, fuck.

Oh, fuck.

He's not going to grant it.

And then he's like, well, but when I look at the definition, you know, the first three

categories, it does not meet that definition.

So we're like, okay, okay, this is going somewhere good.

And then he says, but then there's the fourth category.

And again, it's like, oh, fuck.

Oh, fuck.

Oh, fuck.

Um, and you know, I wish I could remember exactly what he said or how he said it.

But, um, he ultimately said, you know, based on the evidence that was for him.

And that's the only evidence that he can look at.

There was not enough to go to the jury on first degree assault.

Nice.

Dismissed.

Wow.

Dismissed.

Dismissed.

And, uh, that means the whole case is dismissed, right?

Absolutely.

The whole case is gone.

Wow.

So how'd you feel when the judge granted your motion?

What was that like?

We were ecstatic.

Yeah.

Um, I think, I mean, I think we tried to hold it together and like have decorum and whatever,

but then we, um, we kind of were clearing out our stuff.

And I asked to go to a conference room with my client and the bailiff let us go.

Katie, I think had to stay in the courtroom to talk about her next case up for trial.

And client and I walk into the, the, um, the conference room and he turns around.

He's like, I know it's COVID.

I just really wish I could give you a hug right now.

And I look at him like, why the fuck do you think I asked that we could go into this conference

room?

So we, you know, there's rounds of hugs.

We pull our investigator in.

We tell her the good news.

There's rounds of hugs.

When she gets in, we called up his mom and his sister so that he could tell them on speaker

phone that the charge was dismissed.

Um, and it was, it was, that was the best feeling.

He started crying.

Yeah.

He started crying.

Getting to tell a client's mom it's over.

He's not going to prison for 30 years.

After we'd spent three years kind of prepping her for like, this is what could happen.

You know, this is what he's looking at to be able to say, no, it's done.

We're done.

He's, he's not going to do any more time than what he's doing right now.

Uh, was the best feeling.

What was the, uh, prosecutor's, uh, response?

The rumor was that he went back to his office and he cried when he lost.

That is what we were told, um, by somebody with knowledge of the events.

That's great.

This is a great story.

I had a lot of fun.

This is a, you guys did a great job in this trial.

It just seems like you're on top of it.

Good, good job.

You should be really, really proud of yourselves.

Thank you for coming on this show.

This is great.

Thank you for having us.

Thanks for having us.

You, uh, you got to let us fulfill a promise we made about this trial.

So that was really great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's, um, so let's talk about why, uh, you know, I guess we'll start with Sarah.

Sarah, how long have you been a public defender for?

About four and a half years.

And, uh, you know, just to ask the question I asked all our guests at the end of the store,

at the show is, uh, why, why did you become a public defender?

Um, you know, I thought for so long about how I was going to answer this.

I still don't have a good answer, but, um, you know, I am a prison abolitionist.

So I don't think that prison or incarceration helps society or makes people any better.

Um, and I don't think that the criminal, we, I think we have a tendency in our society

to throw the criminal legal system at any problem that we have.

And we've been doing that for decades now, and it's not only wrong, but incredibly harmful.

Um, so like from a political standpoint, I think it's kind of the most important work to be doing

on that end.

But on a personal standpoint, like, you know, I really like advocating for our clients.

I really think that it's important to connect with people and stand with people that don't have

anybody else on their side.

And I like doing it as a PD because it is never fucking boring.

And there's always like the next new thing to learn about and next new case to learn about.

So, um, you know, it just fits every part of my personality.

Well, glad, glad to have you on the team, Sarah.

Thanks for, thanks for coming on the show.

And, and Katie, why did you become a public defender?

I have a little bit of an authority, anti-authority complex.

Um, but mostly it's because I like being able to stand with people when the worst thing that

could happen to them has happened and fix the situation.

I'm a fixer.

Um, and so that was, that was a really big part of it.

Nice.

And, uh, you know, um, speaking of authority and fixing things, you're, you are no longer a

public defender, right?

I am not.

I, uh, was appointed to, uh, be the new head, uh, head county attorney in the county that

we had this case in.

Does that mean, does that mean, like the head prosecutor, like the sort of like akin to the

district attorney?

Yeah.

We may know that.

I'm the head of that office.

Yep.

Chief prosecutor, but chief, lots of other things too.

How did you, and how did you get to that position?

Did this some, cause this case, I think you're, we were talking about it before was sort

of was made a lot of headlines after it happened, right?

In terms of problems with the system, right?

It didn't get a lot of news coverage, but a lot of, I mean, it's a small town.

And so people knew about it and knew that something had happened and something bad had happened.

And the county attorney, uh, retired about a month after this happened, about a month

after our trial, um, and had really been trying to get me to apply.

And I said, no, and I said, no, and I said, no, and I said, no.

Um, and then this happened and it's, was just such a miscarriage of justice that it really

bothered me.

Um, and I was like, I could do better than that.

And so I applied and, and I think that probably this win was a huge part of what, uh, what gave

me the job against other applicants who I think were a lot more qualified and a lot older than

I am.

Um, but they gave it to me for better or for worse.

So they haven't run me out yet.

So.

Wow.

That's great.

Um, that's so cool.

So, um, I know we've got to get going here, but like, what are, can you talk about some

of the changes that you've implemented or new policies you might've implemented for your

office?

Yeah, we got a really good discovery program, um, because traditionally discovery has not

been so good in this office.

And we, uh, we're striving to, to remedy that.

Um, so we bought a really expensive discovery program that basically once we get something,

it uploads it into the defense portal.

Um, so that it, it truly is.

I mean, with the exception of our work product, it truly is an open file.

So they get everything we get.

And so this sort of thing will not happen again.

Nice.

And, um, cause you, uh, Sarah, you're the one that emailed me about being another not guilty.

What is it that you like about another not guilty?

You know, I really like hearing it, it always refreshes my energy level.

I think a little bit to hear about other people, um, doing and, and fighting the same fight.

And it reminds me that trials end in our favor a lot more than we think they do.

I think sometimes like, it's so easy to get caught up in, you know, feeling like the deck

was stacked against us so much of the time.

Um, and so I really love hearing stories of people who have made it through that and, and

using what they have done to kind of like apply to my own practice and to hype me up for trials

and help me prepare for trials and, and, you know, create this larger community because we

we can't do this by ourselves.

That's what's great about this podcast is I get to hang out with awesome public defenders

halfway across the country.

And, uh, no, it's the same, the same amazing people are over there doing the same amazing

fight.

So, so thanks for coming out of the podcast today.

It was great talking to you, Dennis.

Thanks for coming out, bro.

You're.

Yeah.

My favorite co-host.

So.

Yes.

And I'd like to thank our guests for defending them cats over there in Minneapolis.

You know, we're full service.

Like we don't just defend accused criminals.

We rescue animals.

We are a full service rescue organization.

You can't get more white hat than that.

You just can't.

Yeah.

Well, thanks for coming to the show guys.

And, and, uh, we'll see you next time.

Can't wait to hear from your next trial.

So thanks.

Thank you guys.

Goodbye, everybody.

Bye.

Hope you all enjoyed the episode this week.

Special thanks to Daniel Mark for the music and Mike Grimm for the remix.

Your next A&G episode will air next month on the second Sunday.

Peace.