Rice a Baby Mama Drama – When Family Chaos Meets the Courtroom

What's up, my A&Gers, my fellow public defenders, my fellow defense attorneys, my law students, my social justice warriors, my house moms, my grandmothers, my college students, my true crimers.

How are we all doing? A&G is on the up and up, and I'm excited, and I'm feeling blessed over here.

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Thank you all for your contributions and helping with keeping the lights on and running over here at the A&G Studios.

It really helps with the cost. Thank you so much.

And everybody out there, thank you for sticking with me and believing in me.

This is our 99th episode, by the way.

And with that said, without further ado.

Without further ado, here's this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

At one point, the DA objected, and so we went in back to do a sidebar.

And I didn't know this because I was back in chambers with the judge or a little side corridor.

But apparently, the alleged victim pulls out her phone and starts texting while on the stand.

And it gets worse because she went with one of her friends, and so apparently one of her friends also had her phone out and was texting.

The bailiff notices this, goes up to her and says, hey, you cannot text while you're on the stand.

And the jury afterwards told me that they were like, we think she was texting her friend about the case.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty.

I'm David Moore.

Here, along with my fellow public defenders, presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection!

That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't.

I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not-guilty as public defenders get on a daily basis.

In an unjust criminal system.

With a deck stacked against us.

Not guilty.

And welcome back, everybody, to Another Not Guilty.

It's your boy, David D, here, bringing you the freshest not-guilties across these United States.

And boy, am I excited today about our not-guilty guests, but even more excited to see my favorite co-host, who's now my only co-host, Lauren.

Lauren, how are you today?

I'm doing great.

Yay!

You sound great, too.

I can hear you.

I'm so excited.

We've had so many technical difficulties.

45 fucking minutes of technical difficulties before we can record, you know.

But look at that dedication.

We didn't give up.

Nope.

True public defender spirit.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well, we can't give up.

I mean, we have such an awesome guest today.

We have a guest all the way, coming all the way from Sacramento, a public defender who used to be at L.A., public defender.

And then he said, you know what?

I need to go to Sacramento and be a public defender there or up north.

And then he left.

You guys already know him.

It's Kyle Hoffmeister.

He was on some episode in some season already.

Kyle, how are you doing today?

I'm doing good.

It's a little bit hot here in Sac.

But other than that, I'm doing great.

Yeah, massive heat wave today.

It's California.

So, Kyle, how do you like – it's a Sacramento public defender, right?

Yeah, I'm a Sacramento County public defender's office.

How do you like it?

I like it.

It's different than L.A. just because it's a different county.

But same law, same not guilties.

Do you drop that L.A. swag?

Or do you sometimes be like, oh, back when I was in L.A., we did it like this?

My job actually gets mad at me because I'll be like – so, in L.A., we do it like – and

they go, we're not L.A.

And I'm like, well, with that attitude, you never will be.

Everybody in my office knows I'm a Dodger fan.

And there's a few of us, but –

Uh-oh, Northern California.

Oh, God.

It's Giants territory.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, but, you know, we have the more recent World Series than the Giants, and Barry Bonds

is a cheater.

So, yeah, that's on record.

Ooh, those are fighting words, Kyle.

Starting off the episode, ready to brawl.

There's no Ace fans, right?

Because there's no Ace team anymore.

Oh, it's so sad.

It's funny.

They're moving here, and a lot of people are Ace fans.

They're the better fans.

They are.

They are.

All right, guys.

But Kyle, you know, Kyle, it doesn't matter where he's at.

He's going to keep fighting the good fight, keep representing, sticking up for the little

guy, putting the man in his place, because that's how Kyle is.

That's why we hired him.

Remember, Lord, when we hired Kyle?

I do.

I remember working with him.

I think – did you start as a law clerk?

No, I actually – I was not a law clerk, but I was –

Were you just in the prelim pool?

I was in the prelim pool in Norwalk, or as they called it, NoWalk.

I remember that.

Okay, so wait.

So, Kyle, you started off, you're a brand-new lawyer.

They shipped you out to Norwalk to do prelims.

Is that when you met Lauren?

Yeah, because she was assigned there.

And then I think I had, like, the cubicle that was, like, right outside your office.

And any prelim they wanted done, I just – I did.

Now, did you – like, did Lauren even notice you?

Or was she too cool to even notice a prelim lawyer?

I probably wasn't very nice.

I can't remember.

Honestly, I just remember, like, we wouldn't get shit in Norwalk.

Like, you had a guy who had, like, no record.

And it was – I won't judge – drop the judge's name, but I think you know who it is, Lauren.

Like, he – even as a former public defender, he wouldn't reduce it even to a misto.

And we're like, come on.

Oh, yeah.

He went on to be my calendar – he went to a calendar court.

He was my calendar judge.

And it was – I repeatedly asked myself in my head how he used to be a public defender.

Well, funny enough, the judge I was in front of on this case was a former prosecutor.

And I – personally, that's one of my favorite judges I've ever done a trial in front of.

All right.

Well, guys, we've already ate up enough time, so let's jump into it.

Kyle, you know, Kyle's – this is our second time on the podcast, so you know what to do.

Kyle reached out to me.

He said he has another dope not guilty he wants to share.

I expect it.

It better be good.

You better bring it, Kyle.

I think it's good.

There's a few little juicy tidbits.

So my client, who I'm just going to call JJ –

Wait, wait.

Can I ask the question?

Oh, sorry.

Sorry.

Wow, Kyle.

So we want to hear all about this not guilty.

Tell the A&G audience what your client was charged with.

So my client, who I'll call JJ, he was charged with first-degree burglary with a person-present

allegation, which makes it a violent felony.

Meaning he serves 85% of it, and it's a strike.

Yeah, it's a strike.

It doesn't look good.

Six-year max.

Yeah.

Well, he had a prior strike, so it was 12.

And then at the nickel prior, it was 17 on that count alone.

Oh, man.

Your county's still charging nickels?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And here's the thing.

They charge the nickel.

They don't charge it in the initial charging document, but you get to trial, and they go,

oh, we've gotten amended.

Yeah.

Yeah, here's the nickel.

They punish you for going to trial.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then they also add the aggravating factors, which in my case, they allege.

So he could get the upper term, because in California, you can only get the top sentence

if they allege certain aggravating factors.

If they plead it and prove it.

If they plead it and prove it.

Yeah.

Well, in this case, he had the prior strike, so the judge would have found, like, what is

it, numerous or increasing in seriousness.

And his prior strike was for a first-degree burglary, so.

Oh, it's a pattern.

Yeah, which, yeah.

I love to see someone perfecting their craft.

Well, I mean, well, he wasn't perfecting.

He was, I think my client was innocent, but the other charges were domestic violence as

a felony, 273.5, which was their whole basis for the burg.

And then there was, yeah, then there was vandalism of a door, and then it's, like, penal

code 591.5, like, stopping someone from calling 911 as a misdemeanor.

Okay, we should explain that, because I think a lot of people hear burglary, and they think

theft, but actually, the crime of burglary is the unlawful entry with the intent to commit

a felony there, and it could be any felony.

Right.

So, in your case, they're saying your client made an unlawful entry with the intent to commit

domestic battery, a felony domestic battery.

Yeah, which is also funny, because it can be a misdemeanor, but because it can be a felony,

that's how they theorized it.

Did they charge it as a felony because of the actual facts, like the injuries to the complaining

witness, or did they charge it as a felony because of your client's prior record?

Let's figure it out.

So, Kyle, what did your client allegedly do?

So, my client, just the background, so my client has about six kids with six different

women.

A regular Nick Cannon.

I mean, he's giving him a run for his money, but my client, one of the mothers of his

kids, they kind of had a falling out, and she didn't really like my client.

I'm just going to say baby mamas because my other phrasing is too long.

She didn't like my other client's baby mamas, and there was tension because of that, and so

one day, my client wanted to come over and see his kid, and he texted her beforehand, like,

hey, I want to come over and see my kid, and she's like, no.

Wait, I'm sorry.

They're still in a relationship together, though.

No, they're not together, but my client is actually, I mean, he's actually, he wants to

be in his kids' lives, so.

Commendable.

Yeah, well, it's funny, too, because, like, he, and this created tension between the alleged

victim, in this case.

My client will have all his kids kind of play together because he's like, they're brothers

and sisters.

They might as well all come and hang out with each other, but on the day of the day,

the incident, my client beforehand, you know, tells her, I'm coming over.

She's like, no, don't come over, and she literally tells him, if you come over, I'm going to send

you to jail.

So my client goes over, and then the DA's theory before the trial was that my client calls

her, and he's, like, trying to get her attention, like, hey, let me in, and she's like, no.

And then he eventually kicks down the door, comes in, grabs her phone as she's calling

911, and then proceeds to strangle her, and then leaves, and then throws her phone over

the fence in the apartment complex where this took place at, and it lands in a pool, and

the phone's, like, water damaged.

Go ahead.

Is there more of the people's version to this, your client?

Just the day after, so my client wasn't apprehended that day.

The next day, my client is pulled over in a car with other people.

He gives them his true name, and they run it and find out that he has a warrant, because

when the day previously, the cops show up and get a warrant for his arrest, they order my

client out of the car, put handcuffs on him, and that's when he tries to flee.

Okay, and that's the 148?

That's the 148.

Yeah, that's the 148.

That was in us.

Misting, delay, and obstructing a police officer.

Okay, so that's the case.

So your client's charged with residential burglary.

He has children with six different women.

He's on this, he's not, he's one of the mom, one of his baby mamas he's not getting along

with, but he still wants to come visit his kid.

He texts her, I'm coming over to see my kid.

She texts back, hey, if you come over, I'm going to send you to jail.

I'm sure that fact's not in the police report, though.

No, that wasn't, yeah.

Something you found out later.

Yeah.

So he comes over, and according to her, he kicks down the door, comes inside, and strangles

her, and then grabs her cell phone and leaves, and he tosses it in the pool.

And then the next day, the police spot him, there's a warrant out for his rest, and then

he gets pulled over, and he allegedly attempts to flee.

Yeah.

What's the attempt to flee?

Like, what did he do?

So basically, and here's the thing, I didn't get the body cam for this, but supposedly they

go to put handcuffs on him, and that's when he tries running, but he takes, like, two steps,

and they catch him and take him to the ground.

Yeah.

So he complied, right?

He was in a car.

He pulled over.

He gets out of the car.

Yeah.

He turns around.

He walks towards them.

He puts his hands behind his back.

But when they slap the cuffs on him, he all of a sudden just takes two steps, and they

have to tackle him.

He had a change of heart all of a sudden.

After the cuffs were on.

Yeah.

Because that's the ideal time to run.

Yeah.

He didn't get far, and he's like, they never told me why I was being arrested, and I just

kept asking why.

Well, hold on.

We'll get to your client's version in a second.

Sorry.

So your client's residential burglary for showing up, kicking down the door, entering,

with the intent to commit a felony devastating violence, choking her.

Then there's also the preventing the calling of 911, because he takes the cell phone.

Was there, like, a vandalism or something for kicking the door?

Yeah.

Sorry.

There was the vandalism, but as a misdemeanor, because the damage was under 400.

Was it a two-assed door?

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

So is that it for the facts and the charges?

That's it for the facts.

Pretty straightforward.

Okay.

Your client's probably looking at up to close to 20 years for all that bullshit.

Yeah.

All right.

So you get the case.

You see the charges.

You read the police report.

And what happens next?

Then I go in to visit my client.

He's in custody.

He was held no bail, which is something they do here in Sacramento, even though I think

it's illegal.

Yes.

The country says so, too.

Yes.

Several court of appeals have said it as well.

Yeah.

They just, they do it here.

We've, my office has taken a bunch of writs on it.

They get slapped down, but they keep doing it.

But no one cares about the law when it helps our clients.

So.

Yeah.

Okay.

They're doing it for public safety.

So.

Obviously.

But I go and visit him.

I read him the report.

You know, I'm like, okay, like, let's, let's talk about this.

Like, what, like, what are your goals?

Like, what do you want to do on this case?

What's your side of the story?

You know, cause, you know, cause some people are like, when you get them, they're like,

Hey, I just want the best offer.

Some people like, I want to fight this from the beginning.

Um, and he actually wasn't trying to go to trial in the beginning.

Um, we, we eventually had to, um, as I'll explain later, but he was like, look, she has,

uh, beef with me.

You know, we try to co-parent, but she doesn't want me to see my kid, you know?

And essentially what happened is he went over, he got upset, yelled at her and then just

left, you know?

And so.

That's what he says.

He says he just went over there to see his kids.

She said, no, she, he goes over there anyways.

She yells at him and he left.

That's it.

That's his version.

That's his version.

But he doesn't want to trial?

No, he doesn't want to trial.

Cause like, you know, I don't think my client had a lot of faith in the system.

You know, he had a prior record and, you know, yeah.

So let's talk about, I mean, let's talk about the evidence then, you know?

So then, you know, you said that according to her, he, or the police report, he choked her,

right?

Yeah.

So was there like any marks on her neck that were noted in the police report?

Any pictures taken?

Um, so CSI came out the same day and took photos of her neck in the apartment and she

had no redness on her neck at all.

And the only thing she had that kind of could be construed as redness was like near her left

collarbone area.

And to me, it looked like a bruise, but the DA claimed it was like a fresh red mark, but

it looked just like a nick.

It was like about maybe an inch long of that.

Those weren't strangle marks though, right?

No, no.

She didn't have any petechiae, no bruising around like, you know, her neck, nothing.

Petechiae is not a common phrase for some people.

I love that word.

What's petechiae?

So petechiae is when if you cut off the airflow violently on somebody, I don't know if it's

ruptured blood vessels, but like the petechiae, it's actually like the blood vessels kind of

like...

Capillaries?

Yeah, capillaries.

Sorry, I got a bachelor's of arts for my undergrad.

But the blood vessels pop, they pop a little bit, right?

Well, I don't know if the capillaries burst or if they're just like swollen or something,

but you can see it and you can see, I think it's like right below the eyes and sometimes

also in the blood vessels in the eyes.

Oh, okay.

So there's no, so the, there's no strangle marks on her neck to corroborate her version.

Yeah.

What about the door?

You said the door was kicked in, right?

So what was the state of the door when the police showed up?

So on the outside of the door, there's nothing, there's no dent, there's no like footprint.

On the inside of the door, like where the door frame is on the inside, that part is like

the lower part is missing, like right where the lock is.

And that piece of wood is like, it's actually in the kitchen.

I think she moved it, but we never got into that.

Okay.

So your client tells you he didn't do it, that he just showed up, she said to leave and

yells at him and he leaves.

So then what, what happens next in the development?

Where do you go from there?

So when I got this case, it was actually after the prelim.

So I reviewed the prelim transcript and it had a bunch of good stuff.

So we knew what kind of what the cops would testify to, because they did this without her

coming to testify.

Was she not cooperative for the prelim?

I don't know if they tried subbing her.

So we usually on these types of domestic violence cases, the DAs like to do them live, but in this

one they didn't.

So it was unclear if she was cooperative at that point, but, or if they even tried to

get her into court.

But, um, but the cop at the prelim was like, yeah, we didn't see any redness on her neck.

She wasn't crying.

She didn't have any petechiae.

Her eyes weren't red.

You know, just kind of like, they just testified to what was in the court.

Okay.

Did the complaining witness have a prior record?

She did.

It was very minor.

She had like, um, I think she only had like a petty theft, which I tried.

Still a crime of moral turpitude.

Yeah, that's what I wanted to, but the judge at the trial kind of really sanitized that

to where it was like irrelevant.

Okay.

Okay.

So, so what happens next in the development of the defense?

Where do you go?

So the DA's offer on this case was always stay prison, but like they wanted him to admit

the strike and be doubled up.

And when we, when we got that offer, he was like, I'm not going to spend that much time

away from my kids, so I'm not going to take it.

And I was like, okay.

And we also tried to interview her and we could, she wouldn't, she wouldn't respond to us.

Like we sent texts, we sent all that stuff.

She wasn't talking to us.

We interviewed people around the apartment complex.

Um, we interviewed who would have been her next door neighbor, um, who by her account

may have witnessed it and she didn't give us her name, but she basically said, I don't

see, I didn't see anything go on on that day.

So we did investigation.

I also, so wait, so you sent an investigator to interview the next door neighbor.

Yes.

And the next door neighbor said what?

The next door neighbor essentially said, I didn't see, I know, she's like, I know who

you're talking about.

I didn't see anything.

I didn't hear an argument, you know, all that stuff.

Um, and was that believable?

Did she, did she say like, I was here and I didn't hear or see anything?

Or was she like, I don't know anything.

Don't talk to me.

It was probably a combination of the two.

I, I wasn't there and I, and I apologize.

I have to look at the actual like statement we got, but essentially it wasn't bad.

It wasn't like facially, it wasn't like, no, I know what you're talking about.

And yes, I saw it and it matches everything she said.

Um, so, and then, um,

Um, what other defense prep did you do?

Well, so my, my clients, the, the other mothers of my client's kids, they were also involved

in this case.

And they were like, we don't know, we don't know why JJ is being held.

You know, he's a good father.

We've never had any issues with him, but she's always been a problem.

So I sent investigators to go out and talk to them.

And there was like two that were kind of fruitful.

Um, one was like, yeah, she tried to fight me in the past.

Um, and then another one said, um, after this incident, the alleged victim came to me and

said, I did a fucked up thing.

Uh, what I told the cops about JJ wasn't true.

Oh, okay.

So we have impeachment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And here's the thing.

I, cause my client was trying to avoid going to trial.

I turned all this over to the DA and I said, Hey,

you know, let's try to work something out, especially when you got closer to trial.

And, um, as we got closer to trial, the DA was having a hard time finding her.

Okay.

Okay.

So are you, is that, I mean, it doesn't really sound like there's been a lot of defense

prep done on this case or that needs to be done.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was, I mean, it's, it's very straightforward.

I watched the body cam, you know, she was, what's on the body cam.

Oh, so on the body cam, it just shows the cops showing up.

Um, she's holding actually the kid, uh, that are, that my client and her have in common.

She's holding the kid.

She says she has another kid, uh, that was there, but that, that kid is like four years

old.

The cops don't ever see him.

He's not even in the body camera footage at all.

Um, you get a, in the body camera, you get a view of kind of the layout of the apartment.

She kind of tells the cops this story of like, basically what was in the police report.

Yeah.

He comes in or he tries calling me, uh, as I'm on, as I'm calling 9-1-1, uh, he's bet,

he's bashing the door in and then he grabs my phone, uh, takes it.

We argue.

And then he, uh, chokes me and then leaves.

She didn't mention that he threw the phone in that pool.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

He, she did.

But like, she, she was kind of all over the place.

Like when I watched the video, I was like, it's unclear where and when he supposedly strangles

her, um, which matters for the Berg.

Um, but, uh, did they find a phone in a pool then they did?

They did because apparently I forget it was, if it was the cops canvassing or she went and

got it, but she essentially, um, she's like, Oh yeah.

And here's my, I think she finds it.

She goes like, Oh yeah, here's my phone.

And I think she tries putting it in rice because when they took the CSI photos of the damaged

phone, there's like rice stuck on it.

So you just said something important.

You said that she was all over the place about where and when he allegedly strangled her.

Yeah.

So her initial statement was what?

That he strangled her.

The way she describes, she doesn't say like verbatim when he was inside, he strangled me,

but her order of events makes it kind of seem like he's inside, but it's still unclear.

Like she jumps all over the place when she's telling the cops.

All right.

So that's good.

Um, is there any other defense investigation then going on or any other defense prep, any

evidence you're looking at?

I'm trying to think, uh, not that I can think off the top of my head, um, but I was just

prepping the client, um, getting ready to go to trial, telling him like, this is what

to expect.

So you're going to trial now with the only witnesses to the actual event being your client

and the complaining witness.

Yes.

And then the only witnesses that the DA could call potentially are the officers who took

the statements.

Yeah.

And did your client give a statement to the police?

No.

So when he's arrested, those are not, those are not the cops that, uh, are involved with

the initial investigation.

And they're from two separate agencies, like one sack city, one is sack County.

Um, so I don't even think the cops know the facts.

They just know that there's a warrant.

So they don't talk with him about it.

And he doesn't make any statements like, Oh, I know what this is about or anything like

that.

I think you said originally your client was not on board with going to trial.

Didn't want to go, um, didn't go to trial.

Didn't want to go to trial.

So did something happen over the course of time that changed that?

Well, it's because they couldn't get her.

And so, um, she was uncooperative with the DA, like the D I kept, I kept asking for the

DA trying to see if he could find her.

Like, Hey, do you have any additional statements?

And he's like, no, we can't find her.

So I was like, okay, well, you know, my client is willing to just take a misdemeanor.

So we conveyed him this to after, after I turned over all the investigation and the DA

is like, no.

And so I'm like, okay, you're telling me you don't want to go to prison.

They won't accept the MISTO.

She's not going to show up.

So like, you know, let's, let's push them a bit.

Um, or also like that was just like the natural care.

That's so LA of you, Kyle.

Just fucking push them like that.

Did you not wave any time too?

Oh, no.

Fucking hell no.

Don't wave time, let's go.

Well, if they can't find her, why would I wave time?

I'm not going to give them more time to find her.

Right.

Um, so, um, so you're going to trial then, right?

Or go ahead.

Yeah, so, so we get to trial, we, we, um, so we get to trial and I've done my motions

in lemonade, filed them with the court, you know, got my client's trial court closed, you

know.

Some of the state of the case first then, because now you're at trial, right?

And, but what's the state of the case?

What's the evidence, state of the evidence?

How do you feel about the case?

Well, here's the thing.

If she doesn't show up, they can't proceed.

Feeling pretty good then, huh?

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good.

Cause I'm like, if they don't got her, like they got nothing, you know?

Um, and also I was like, you know what, even if she does show up, I, I think I can handle

this.

I think, you know, I think I can cross her and undermine her credibility.

Okay.

So, um, we, then we get to the trial court, I'm ready to go, you know?

And then the DA comes in and he goes, we're dismissing and refiling.

We can't find her.

So at that point I'm like, okay, well, let me try getting my guy out.

Cause now we have a change in circumstances.

So the DA does the dismissal and then I tell the court like, Hey, let's release my guy.

And I make all the arguments, cite all the case law and the judge.

It's funny that we were back in chambers discussing this and the judge goes, well, it's either

going to be no bail or it's going to be free trial release, which is weird that it's that

black and white for him.

But, um, but I, I make my pitch and the judge goes, well, because he has a prior strike,

he's a danger to the community, no bail.

And my client turns to me and he's like, well, how can they do this?

I'm like, they can't like, he got very frustrated just from those things where it's like this

injustice is happening.

The judge isn't following the law and you can't make the judge do that.

So he has a bad lawyer on his hands and he's mad at you.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, he wasn't mad at me at that point, but he was a little frustrated.

And like, if we had taken a writ, he probably would have gotten a ruling by the time we did

the second trial.

So when the DA refiles, I tell him like, look, dude, if they can't get her, let's rush back

to trial.

And he was all for that.

Cause he's like, I don't want to spend more time in custody than I have to.

So I waived the prelim just cause I was like, they're not going to get her.

They're just going to have the cop testify to what she said.

There's no point in doing the prelim again.

Cause we get the same answers.

So we waived prelim and then we're back on the trial track.

Okay, great.

So what happens next?

So, um, basically it just kind of sits in, uh, limbo until we're ready to go to trial again.

The DA, uh, has to continue it a couple of times.

Cause like we, I think we first showed up on like 45 of 60, cause in California we have

a 60 day speedy trial around felonies and they keep continuing it.

Like they, like they, they went week to week to week.

And my client, I mean, he started to get more frustrated cause he's like, they're just trailing

it and you're not doing it.

Well, this is the second time around too.

Right.

And he's like, if they can't get here, they should just dismiss.

I go, I agree.

But at this point, I, we didn't really have a grounds for dismissal.

Um, cause the courts here just let the DA's trail at my client's expense.

Um, so basically we're coming up on the last day and I'm still bugging the DA.

Like, Hey, do you got any new statements?

Do you got any new statements?

Um, and so he's like no new statements, but then like I see him in court on another matter

and I'm like, Hey, we got, you know, we got the last day for, um, JJ's case coming up next

week.

Let me know if you're going to dismiss, you know, cause like I'm trying to get my client

out ASAP.

Cause he actually missed a few of his client, a few of his kids birthdays, which, you know,

upset him understandably.

Um, but the DA eventually goes, no, I think we got her.

So I'm like, okay, well you say you got her, let's just go.

Um, and then like the, I think it was like the week before trial, like a few days before

I get the phone call done, you know, cause my client's in jail.

He's calling.

The jail calls.

Yeah.

The jail calls.

And it's like 10 hours.

Um, and I managed to listen to a few of them, but, uh, I had, I brought on an intern on

this case and she listened to most of them and summarized them.

Was there a protective order in place?

No, it's, it's weird.

In Sac County, they don't really do it pre-trial, even though they could.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Very not LA.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

So your client's been talking to the complaining witness.

Oh, no, no.

No?

He actually hasn't.

Oh.

He's been talking to the other mother of his kids.

Oh, about the case?

About the case a little bit, uh, about other stuff.

He was, he was rapping, um, he was talking about some other explicit stuff, which I won't

get into details, but I think you can all know what that is.

Making more babies.

Audibly, yeah.

Audibly, audibly.

Um, and he also was expressing his frustration to me, to one of the mother of his kids, um,

because he's like, this guy ain't doing shit for me.

He's just letting the DA do what they want.

And it was funny, um, the mother of his kid, who I had talked to and kept updated, she's

like, well, he's saying he's trying his best.

I don't know if that sounds lame and not very LA of me, but, yeah.

Um, but eventually we do, um, but eventually we do, we do get to trial.

So we're going to trial there.

You've made an offer of a misdemeanor.

They said, no, they say they got their witness and your client is, isn't going to take any

more prison time.

Cause he wants to get out of custody so he can be with his kids.

He already missed a few birthday parties, right?

Yeah.

And it's, it's a weak case, you know, supposedly he bangs down the door.

Supposedly he chokes her.

There's nothing to corroborate that.

In fact, the evidence would indicate otherwise.

Yeah.

Um, so let's talk about this domestic violence, residential burglary case.

Tell us about the judge you're in front of.

So the judge I'm in front of, um, he is a former prosecutor and I've, I've done stuff

in front of him before.

And so I know what, like what he likes.

I can make him laugh.

Um, like I, one time, uh, was arguing a bail motion and my client basically had one open

case and got picked up on an arrest that they never filed on.

So I told the judge, arrests don't matter.

Like OJ got arrested and we all, and he's innocent.

My judge went to USC.

So he's a USC fan and he laughed and he let my guy out.

So I know how to make this guy laugh.

Um, but he's a good judge.

How do you feel about that?

Just do a little, a little sports reference, you know, a little, a little good, good old

boys club there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I didn't love it, but you know, as a public defender, we do what we have to do.

It was for the sake of my client.

Uh, yeah, no, I didn't love anything about that little anecdote, but it worked.

So yeah.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, no, he was good.

I mean, he ruled in our pretrial motions.

He, he basically gave me everything I wanted except for, let's ask that then.

So what, what were your pretrial motions then?

The only thing I wanted to do was I wanted to bring up her prior petty theft.

Um, and also I asked, I, there, there was some potential 1109 prior acts of domestic violence,

but the DA, I don't know, or he hadn't given me any police reports on that.

So, so you asked to exclude any mention.

Yes.

And he, the DA goes, I'm not going to bring up any on that, anything on that.

So.

Wow.

Great.

Yeah.

Um, and he sanitized the petty theft conviction because he said, you can say that she was

arrested for taking something at Walmart.

I wanted to get into the fact that she lied to loss prevention because loss, loss prevention

when they caught her, they were like, Hey, you stole it.

And she's like, no, I didn't, but.

Oh, uh, all right.

That's fine.

Yeah.

It's, it was, it wasn't going to make or break the case.

Yeah.

Um, and you still have her statement saying she made it up, but the DA doesn't know.

Cause this is an impeachment statement.

No, so I actually, I did turn that over for the sake of trying to get my client a misdemeanor

offer.

I mean, usually I keep that close to my chest just cause like, you know what, you know,

but, um, but I, but I turned it over and I talked to my client about it and I was like,

I think this, you know, if they can't get her, you know, and we have his impeachment, let's

just, I'm trying to get my client out as soon as possible.

I thought maybe this could get us some fruit to get us something close to a time-served

offer, but it didn't, it didn't head out.

By the way, before we stop, we jump into that.

How, how is your client doing at this time as trial is starting about this?

I met, I managed to calm him down.

I was like, Hey dude, now's the time that they need to put up or shut up and you know,

I'm going to, I think we got a good case.

I think we got stuff we can argue.

So, you know, you're going to see that I'm going to fight for you.

And he's like, okay, well, let's see.

Cool.

Well, all right.

That sounds kind of confident maybe.

Well, let's see, you know, let's just fucking see.

All right.

So tell us about jury selection then.

How, what was that like?

Uh, rather standard.

Um, I, we actually had a very good pool.

Uh, it was pretty diverse.

We had a lot of people of color.

Um, we had, um, a doctor who specialized in internal medicine who I wanted on because

I was like, she has no injuries.

So she's claiming that she was strangled so hard and she has no injuries.

Like, I feel like a doctor would be like, that doesn't make sense.

Uh, we had a lady who was a nurse who had told us that her mom had actually lied about

domestic violence incidents to get her dad in trouble.

Wow.

And she's still in the jury.

She made the jury.

Yeah.

She, she eventually made the jury because, uh, the prosecutors up here, they,

they don't use the preemptory challenges.

Oh yeah.

Once the law changed, some of them have gotten really scared to strike anybody.

Right.

And, and, um, she was for cause at first, but then I rehabbed her and I was like, look,

you're a nurse, you know, you will help people regardless of your feelings.

She's like, yeah.

And I was like, do you think you could take that mindset and put it, you know, as a juror?

And she goes, yeah, I thought about it.

And I realized, regardless of my feelings, I can be objective.

I'm like, great.

Okay.

You're good enough to sit.

That's incredible luck to have her on the jury though.

Oh, oh, hell yeah.

Which was always like, there's no way.

Let's talk about the law change Lord reference.

Yeah.

Was it in some case law that basically it makes it harder for them to strike people.

It was trying to address things like Bats and Wheeler issues, racial disparities.

Like, like the prosecutors used to kick people off who had, uh, negative interactions with

law enforcement or had negative opinions of law enforcement.

And guess who has negative interactions with law enforcement and negative opinions of law

enforcement, people of color, black people, brown people.

And so now prosecutors are real scared now.

I mean, it also says that they get reported to the state bar.

Yeah.

So they're very afraid to get a complaint against them for, um, kicking somebody improperly.

So a lot of them are taking the position that if they can't get them kicked for cause, they're

not kicking anyone.

Yeah.

Well, the prosecutor in this case, you know, it's kind of like, oh, poor prosecutor, but

well, were you guys engaged in these underhanded tactics for decades?

Yes.

And now we have to make a new law to address that.

And now you're like, oh, poor me.

I can't kick people that are bad for my case anymore.

Yeah.

Well, I'm sorry.

Maybe you guys shouldn't have been so racist in the past.

Yeah.

Bringing it back to your OJ comment.

Gil Garcetti, he was the DA at the time.

And he was so comfortable with those practices.

He actually publicly said that he told Marsha Cross not to have black people on the jury.

Yeah.

Which is just...

Marsha Clark.

Not Marsha Clark.

Oh, sorry.

Sorry.

Marsha Clark.

Marsha Clark.

You know, you know who I'm talking about.

But I mean, it's crazy because Batson Miller was a thing back then, too.

Oh, yeah.

But they were so comfortable with the practice that that was sort of public knowledge.

Like, he made public statements about that, which is crazy.

So, this new law went into effect...

Like, was it?

2022.

2022, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, it hasn't been around for very long.

And the prosecutors are still a little squirrely about it.

Luckily for us.

Well, they tried using it against me in this case.

So, there was one juror who she had a mom who was a victim of domestic violence.

And she said, look...

Because I asked her, like, if someone gets up there and the DA says they're a victim, are

you going to assume they're a victim?

And she goes, yes, I can't think of a reason why they would lie.

Which, that was enough for a cause.

But then she ended up getting rehabbed kind of for the same reasons as the nurse.

So, then I couldn't get a for a cause.

So, I used a preempt on her.

Obviously.

Yeah, you can't let her stay.

No.

And then the DA goes, because she was a person of color and she was female.

The DA, this is how he goes.

He goes, I think she's a protected class.

And then the judge goes, okay, well, she said, without me saying anything, the judge goes,

well, she said, her mom is a victim of domestic violence.

These are strongly held beliefs.

Even though she said she could be fair and reasonable, I was going to kick her for a cause.

But for that, and so I assume Mr. Hoffmeister is kicking her for the reasons I just stated.

And then I'm like, yep.

So, you didn't even have to argue what he said.

Yeah.

It's like, submit.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So, I avoided a bar complaint.

It's like, the prosecutor can't even hear what jurors say.

He just looks at them on what their protected class status is.

You know, he only sees gender and race.

He was just mad because he didn't have the balls to say that when you had the nurse.

Yeah.

He didn't have the balls to kick her.

He was just mad that you actually were like, no, I'm getting rid of the person that's good for you.

Yeah.

Well, it's funny.

The judges here know they're not going to use preamps, but the judges, especially in this case, when the DA tried to kick the nurse for a cause, he goes, I'm not going to do for a cause, but you can use a preamp.

Which he didn't.

Yeah.

Any other stories with jury selection or anything else about the jury?

Do you want to tell us?

No.

No, it was pretty straightforward.

I asked my client.

How do you, what's your style?

How do you get the jurors to talk about and share so much or divulge so much?

Is there, do you have a particular tactic you use?

Yeah.

So, my first, my, the first thing I tell jurors is I'm like, okay, now's the time where we got to talk about unpopular opinions.

I'm going to tell you what I'm not, or a few of my unpopular opinions.

First and foremost, I think In-N-Out is overrated.

Born and raised in SoCal.

I think you can get a, I know.

It's an unpopular opinion.

So, I've had to talk with.

It's a good thing you don't live down here anymore, Kyle.

Well, I miss, I miss Tommy Burger, which they don't have up here.

But I also tell jurors, and to make matters worse.

I know.

Tommy Burger, come on.

Oh, come on.

Jeez.

Tommy Burger?

Some sloppy chili on it.

Oh, it's the best.

Standing in the parking lot.

For those of you who aren't privy to SoCal cuisine,

I think Tommy Burger is one of the best burgers you can get.

SoCal cuisine.

I can see why you left, Kyle.

Yeah, yeah.

But then the other thing I tell jurors, despite the fact that I don't look in and out,

to make matters worse, I'm a Dodger fan, which, you know, always gets jurors going, ooh.

But I break the ice.

Just trying to see who you can piss off right away.

Well, because, I mean, here's the thing.

If I can get you talking, I can get you to like me.

So that was my mentality.

That is a lot of self-confidence there, Kyle.

So L.A.

So L.A.

All that self-confidence.

So that's how I broke the ice.

But I get jurors talking, just like I got Lauren's reaction.

I get reactions from jurors.

He's just playing with you, Lauren.

He's just playing with you.

So.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

Tell us about the DA's Wadir.

It's typical DA Wadir.

Okay.

Like, they're like, if I prove this case, will you convict?

Okay.

Yeah.

I have a three-legged chair.

But I need four legs to make a chair.

Have I shown you a chair?

Like, stuff like that.

And it's.

So basically, it was your run-of-the-mill vanilla DA Wadir.

Nothing worth even talking about.

Yeah.

I mean, because, like, he knows he can't use preamps.

So unless if someone says something outrageous for cause, he's not going to.

He's not going to be able to get them off.

Okay.

Interesting.

Okay, cool.

All right.

Time for opening statements then.

Tell us about that.

So the DA's opening statement was literally just what I said.

It's like, ladies and gentlemen, you're going to hear about the facts of the case.

That he kicked the door in, strangled her through her phone so she couldn't call 911.

That she was terrified, all that stuff.

And then during my opening, I had all of the CSI photos of her neck that showed nothing printed out.

And so I was like, you know, I'm just going to steal his thunder and I'm going to control the narrative.

So I literally show the jurors all of the CSI photos and I go, this is what you're going to see.

And this is not going to, not in an argumentative way, but like she says this happened, but this is what the photos show.

And then she's going to hear about contradictions.

You know, you alone are going to be able to judge her credibility.

But at the end of this case, you're not going to be able to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that what she said happened.

Okay, Kyle, I want to go back to jury selection for a second.

Did you at all, Wadir, on a DV victim recanting since you had the statement of her saying she made it up?

Because I feel like in DV cases, whenever a woman usually makes a police report and then when she comes in and says it didn't happen, people assume the recant is to protect the man that she's still in love with.

Air quotes on that.

So I didn't go in on recant because it wasn't a true recant.

It was just impeachment because I got the statement from one of the other, not from the victim, but from one of the mothers who heard what the victim had said.

So it wasn't, it wasn't, I didn't consider it like a true recant.

And I, I didn't really know if she was going to get up on the stand at recant.

So it didn't really come into play.

I mean, I probably should have, but.

I mean, it worked whatever you did.

So spoiler alert, this show is called Another Not Guilty.

Okay, so going back, you did your opening statement and you used the pictures.

Did you say, did you say a picture is worth a thousand words?

No, I should have, I should have.

No, it's too cliche, too cliche.

That's for prosecutors.

Okay.

All right.

So then let's talk about the people's case.

How did they roll out the evidence?

Who did they put up?

The first person they put up was the alleged victim.

And she came there with one of her friends.

And we did write her in the morning and then we start evidence in the afternoon because we don't, I know in LA sometimes the calendar court will start and stop the trial.

But this was like, just go straight through.

She is called to testify and she gets up to like the bar, basically that divider in the courtroom.

And she's like, she looks like she's about to cry.

You know, she's like about to start sobbing.

Before she's even started.

Yeah, she's like about to be doubled over and the DA, she's with her victim's advocate and the DA is like, I call Miss Doe.

And then the victim's advocate walks her up to the stand and then just, she's stoic.

Just not, it's not the same demeanor.

Wait, what?

She's.

She couldn't keep it going.

Yeah, she couldn't keep it.

Oh, she, oh, she, she, she goes up, she's crying and all upset on her way to the stand.

She steps onto the stand.

Just pitiful.

And starts answering questions and she can't keep the crying parade going.

The, the pity parade going.

So then like, she's just, what's she doing then?

She's just.

Just answering questions.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

And then, so the DA does the direct and kind of just gets out what, what she kind of told the cops, except she says, you know, client told me he was going to come over.

I said, she's trying to sympathize, I guess, try to make yourself be more sympathetic and go, no, I didn't want him to come over because I like to have somebody else watch the kid with him.

Like she mentioned her mom or something like that.

And she's like, I didn't, I didn't have that scheduled.

So I didn't want him to come over.

He comes over.

He's like tapping on my window, telling me to let him in to see his kid.

I say, no, I had blocked him before and restricted his number.

He's calling me.

I'm ignoring him.

He's calling me again.

I eventually answer.

He's cussing me out.

And then I decide I'm going to call 911.

And so when I call 911, that's when he kicks in the door.

And the DA played the 911, the first 911 call she made.

And you hear my client yelling in the background.

It just, it's him.

It's, it's like she starts the call.

It's like, hello, 911.

And then she goes, oh my God.

You hear my client yelling in the background.

And then the call's just dropped.

Were you okay with that call coming in?

Yeah, because it contradicts what she's saying.

Because she's saying he's kicking in the door as I'm calling 911.

Which you don't hear that.

And you would hear it.

So, and so what?

If my client's yelling at her, again, it's not the best look, but it's not a crime.

What's he saying?

Can you hear?

No, you can't hear.

It's just him yelling.

And also it's muffled.

It's not like, because if they're inside the apartment, I think you could hear him.

He's obviously outside and it's muffled.

So, you know, it's before he ever enters, so.

Okay.

All right.

So it's not like there's some big violent incident that did happen because he's yelling.

He's more or less outside.

Is he knocking on the door or pounding?

No, you don't, you don't even hear any banging on the door.

You just hear him yelling.

I mean, he's just saying, let me see my kid.

Right.

Right?

I'm a great father.

Yeah.

That sounds, I think that sounds reasonable.

Yeah.

That's a reasonable interpretation.

That's exactly what was happening.

That's what we're telling the jury.

Yeah.

And then, and then she said.

Hey, five out of six babies' mamas like them.

So that's pretty, those are pretty good numbers, you know, like.

Like, honestly, it's, they actually were all friends.

Like, all of them came to the trial.

Oh, Lord.

Yeah, he's, and one of them was pregnant.

They all came to, oh, with his baby?

I, you know, Lauren, there's this thing called client control.

I don't ask.

I don't, I don't ask.

I don't need to know.

Right.

But they came and they supported your client?

Yeah.

Or they were supporting the complaining witness?

No, they were supporting my client.

They did not like the victim, alleged victim.

Oh, dear.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

And.

The real housewives of your client.

That'd be a great show.

This is sort of fascinating.

Yeah.

I always joke that if my client ever started a cult, he had a good foundation.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

I mean, people can say that.

Okay.

So how did you cross-examine this, the complaining witness?

Oh, sorry.

On the direct, she said something that was different.

So she clarified and she said, essentially, he comes in.

I'm calling 911.

I'm telling him I'm calling 911.

And he grabs the phone out of my hand.

And then she says, like, he's yelling at her.

But then he starts apologizing.

She leaves outside the apartment.

He's, like, following her.

Apparently, the neighbor who was next door comes out.

Supposedly, my client then tries to take her phone.

And then he doesn't.

And then he's, like, talking to her outside.

And then he supposedly then strangles her outside, picks her up to the point where she's, like,

on her tippy toes and pins her against the door of the next door neighbor.

Okay.

Question.

Is this an apartment complex that's open?

How do you mean?

Like, all the apartments open up to a courtyard?

I mean, like, are all the units inside or are they outside?

It's outside.

It's outside.

And do you have to be buzzed in or need a key to enter the complex?

No.

No.

So, arguably, at this point, if she's saying that he choked her outside of her apartment,

this is no longer a burglary already before you've gotten to your cross.

Right.

Right.

So...

And the police court said she went inside, though, right?

Or the person that he went inside.

Yeah.

So, looking back, it was actually kind of unclear.

But when she tells the story, you're thinking it has to happen inside, which, especially when

you're filing as a burglary, that's the only way it makes sense.

Mm-hmm.

So, she claims that happens, and then after he strangles her, or he lets her go, he then

takes the phone and then throws it over a fence into a pool.

So, I mean, at this point, this is their first witness, and this is her direct testimony.

So, before you've done anything, you've already removed the strike.

Yes.

You're already winning.

I'm already winning, which is...

Did the DA in his opening statement say he went inside?

Yes.

The DA's opening statement was he went inside, because, like, he kicks in, goes in, and strangles

her.

But she just testified he...

She went outside, was it?

Or he...

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, which I...

Yeah.

I mean, fuck whatever else happens.

You've already won, because he doesn't have a strike now.

Right, but I'm still worried about the felony DV, but that's...

Sure, there's other stuff to...

But this would be a PD win, even if he was guilty on whatever's left.

Yes, yeah.

Great, okay.

So, then how do you go about your cross-examination?

So, I just kind of point out all her...

At first, I start with all her bias.

I say, hey, you don't like my client's other baby mamas.

And she's like...

And she goes, which one?

And I go, okay, any of them.

And she's like, no, I don't.

It's true.

And then...

It was vague.

That's true.

Yeah.

Yeah, I should have clarified.

That was on me.

And I go, you know, he has, like, other kids of other women.

Yeah.

In fact, you tried to fight one of his other baby mamas.

And she's like...

And then she goes, yeah.

And I'm like...

And then she goes, no, no, sorry.

And she goes, are you talking about the time at the apartments?

And I don't know that fact.

And I go, yeah.

And she's like, yeah, I did.

And then...

So, now you have her propensity for violence.

Right.

Yeah.

She's the one to throw down.

And then I had text messages where she's, like, degrading my client's other kids.

Like, one of my other client's kids has special needs.

And so, and this is, I'm just going to use her verbiage verbatim.

I know it's not PC, but she says, one of my...

She basically keeps calling one of my other client's kids retarded and says, he's retarded

because you got retarded sperm.

And then in one of...

I'm just trying not to laugh at this.

That's terrible.

But I mean, the fact that this is happening on the stand, too, is just...

Yeah.

But she's admitting it.

I'm like, you said this.

And she's like, yeah.

And then I'm like, and basically, you don't like, you know, the kid you had of JJ hanging

around his other kids.

No, I don't.

And in fact, in one of the text messages, you said, fuck them kids, referring to the

other kids.

And she's like, yeah.

Great.

So you're just making her look real nasty then.

Yeah.

And then I got her to admit, you told JJ prior to going over that if he came over, you're

going to send him to jail.

And she's like, yeah.

And I'm like, you weren't going to let him see his kid that day.

And she's like, no.

And I kind of pushed it.

And I was like, but he's the father of this kid.

And she's like, yeah.

And then I go, and then she had other text messages where she was jokingly and trying

to annoy him and go, you're not even the father of this kid.

And she mentioned somebody else that client doesn't like.

Oh, she sounds lovely.

Yeah.

And then I.

But she admitted everything.

She admitted all the impeachment and character issues you brought up, right?

Oh, yeah.

And then, and then, what else did I cross around?

So she kept saying, I restricted and blocked him.

And I looked it up and I was like, they're two different things.

Like, one doesn't even let the call go through.

Another one sends it directly to voicemail.

And so I think it was blocked, sends it to voicemail or something like that.

And I said, you say you blocked him, right?

Yeah.

But you actually answered the call.

And she goes, yeah.

And I'm like, you realize there are two different things that do different things.

And she goes, I don't know what they mean.

And so, yeah, she looked bad.

And then she doubled down on the fact that she said, yeah, I told him I was calling 911,

which, you know, I'll talk about how she was impeached with that later.

And so I did ask her about if she told another one of my clients, baby mamas, you know, that

you told her you said a fucked up thing about JJ and that you lied about him.

And she goes, no, I never said that.

And I was like, so you never told, and I'm going to make up a name.

You never told Sydney, you know, this.

And she goes, no, I don't even like or talk to Sydney.

And so I'm like, okay.

And then after I finished, the DA tried to clean up some stuff, but she was just kind

of still all over the place.

And at one point, the DA objected.

And so we went in back to do a sidebar.

And I didn't know this because I was back in chambers with the judge or a little side corridor.

But apparently the alleged victim pulls out her phone and starts texting while on the stand.

In front of the jury?

Mm-hmm.

It gets worse because she went with one of her friends.

And so apparently one of her friends also had her phone out and was texting.

The bailiff notices this, goes up to her and says, hey, you cannot text while you're on the stand.

And the jury afterwards told me that they were like, we think she was texting her friend about the case.

Oh.

To try and clean up her story.

Yeah.

And so this, after I did my direct and the DA did his cross, this judge allows the jurors to ask questions.

Wait, wait.

Okay.

You're talking about something down the line in the trial or right now during the sidebar?

Oh, no, sorry, sorry.

This was after the sidebar, after we had finished the cross and direct.

Okay, so after you finished your cross of her, there's a sidebar for some issue, which is not really worth talking about, I guess.

To be honest, I can't remember.

I think it was.

It's okay.

If you don't remember, it's not really that great.

Yeah.

But you're at sidebar.

But you're at sidebar.

And so now she's texting.

The bailiff goes up to that.

And that's something the jurors noticed and told you about later.

Yeah.

Okay.

So then, and then you are springing up the fact that the jurors are allowed to ask questions, but this isn't the moment when the jurors ask the questions.

It's a little bit later in the trial, right?

No, it's after we do our cross and redirect.

Like, she's still on the stand.

So they're asking questions to the witness.

Oh, so the judge then allows the jurors to submit questions to the witness after the attorneys are done doing their questioning to see if the jurors have additional questions.

Some judges do this.

The worst.

It's not, I don't really like the practice, but I've never been burned by it either.

It's just kind of annoying.

So what was the question?

There was just kind of, it's funny.

It was like, it was a lot of stuff we already talked about.

One juror asked how tall the client was.

I'm 6'3", and I think my client is like about my height.

And the alleged victim in this case was, she was about 5'2".

I think they were doing that to see if he could really lift her up on her tippy toes as he's strangling her.

Oh, sorry.

And also, I got her to admit she didn't see any redness on her neck on any of the photos.

She didn't even admit that the one little mark she had on her collarbone was from my client.

Sorry, going back to the jurors' questions.

Another one of the questions the jurors had was, why wouldn't you let him see his kid?

And then she gives kind of the same excuse.

She's like, well, I didn't have someone to, you know, watch him with the kid and whatever.

And yeah, there's about like 10 questions, but a lot of them was just like blase stuff.

All right.

Let's go on.

Let's move on to the next witness then.

Anything else about this witness?

No.

Was your client cool during the whole time with the questioning?

Or did he tell you anything or whisper in your ear about anything to ask?

He was basically asking.

He kept saying, ask her about these text messages.

And I was like, I know.

I'm getting to it.

You know, or I'm asking about this.

Um, I think he's the one who was involved.

That was good.

He's involved.

Yeah.

I think he was the one who asked me.

He's like, ask her about her calling my kid retarded.

And I was like, okay.

Tell her she said my sperm was retarded.

Yeah.

What?

I said it was retarded.

All right.

All right.

So, who testified next for the people, if anybody?

It was one of the sheriff's deputies who arrived on scene.

And he hurt the DA's case.

The only thing he was helping.

So, essentially, he gets up on direct and he relays, yeah, we got a call about this.

And he's basically like, the timeline worked out to where it was about five minutes after my client left is when she called the alleged victim.

He responds, he notices that, uh, she appears to be upset.

Um, she's holding a baby.

Uh, he notices that part of the door frame is damaged with a piece of the wood, uh, in the kitchen.

Um, he says that she relayed to us that her, uh, the father of her kid had come over.

She told, basically kind of like reiterating what she said.

Um, and he said that, you know, while inside, he, he strangled her.

And that was kind of it.

You know, it was very straightforward.

So contradictory to what the complaining witness testified to.

Yes.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, it was just kind of like what was in his report, what he testified to a prelim.

Like it was, it was what I expected.

So, um.

No surprises.

Yeah, no surprises.

Um, so when I crossed him, one of the first things I said was, okay, so you're saying that she told you it happened inside.

And he's like, yeah.

And I, it was like, I pounced on it and I was like, so if she gets up here and says it occurred outside, that's a completely different story than what she told you.

And he's like, yes.

Uh, and then I got him to admit that, um, she, when you asked her if she, if she told the client that she was calling 911, she had told you, no, I didn't tell him.

And she goes, and the cop agreed.

And he's like, yeah, she didn't tell us he ever told my client that she was calling 911.

And that was for the, the 591.5, the disrupting now one call.

Cause for that charge, you have to know.

That's an important distinction.

Right.

Right.

And so, um, you know, he just kind of made her look like she was just changing her story.

I got out from him that she had told him that another one of her kids was there.

And I was like, but you didn't see that kid.

No, you, when you observed her, you didn't observe any redness on her neck.

And I showed him the photos and he's like, no, those are the photos we took.

I don't see any redness on her neck.

Um, I said, she wasn't crying.

No, eyes weren't red and watery.

No, she was holding a baby.

Yeah.

The baby wasn't crying or appeared to be upset.

You know?

So, and a part of me was like, look, let's, if either of the kids was present when this

actually happened, maybe the toddler wouldn't be upset.

Cause the other, the other kid she was holding was young, but like the four-year-old would

have been upset.

Or at least I thought I could be wrong.

I don't have kids.

Yeah.

Um, okay, cool.

So the cop, so the cop was pretty honest then.

Yeah.

He was pretty honest.

Um, yeah.

I find that police, when it comes to domestic violence cases, kind of tend to just report

what was said.

I think they kind of know that sometimes complaining witnesses will just flat out lie about domestic

violence, but the police feel obligated to make the arrest because she's claiming domestic

violence.

Nobody wants another OJ issue, like, which is what we were talking about earlier, I guess.

You know?

So it's kind of like, I feel like cops have no problems throwing, planning witnesses under

the bus during the trial.

Yeah.

And like, you know, he was kind of favorable for me, so I didn't really have many bones

to pick.

On a redirect, the DA tried to, he basically, he asked the cop, well, didn't she say that,

didn't, when you were talking to her, wasn't she like kind of unsure where it occurred

and then it may, the strangling may have, it may have occurred outside and the DA, and

the cop goes, nope, she said it was inside.

Yeah.

I like it.

Um, and the, it's funny, the jurors had zero questions for him.

Oh, perfect.

That's great.

Yeah.

I know.

They heard what they needed.

It's like, case is done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now just don't fuck it up.

Right.

Um, any, any other pertinent evidence for the people's case?

Nope.

That was it.

Like, they called two witnesses and, you know, I feel like if you're going to do a trial,

only having to prep for two witnesses is pretty, pretty easy.

When, um, so when, uh, when the complaining witness said that she went outside and was

strangled outside, wait, did she say he kicked the door down or did she say she opened the

door and went outside?

No, she said he kicked the door.

So when, when, when he first comes in, he kicks the door down.

So he did come in.

She testified he did come in.

Yeah.

He did come in, but he didn't.

The only thing he did inside was snatch her phone as she's calling 911, which.

Well, that could still be a residential burglary then as long as he entered the, because I

guess, because we're talking about your 1118 motion and I imagine it was denied on the

residential burglary because you made a motion to dismiss me and the people failed to prove

that he committed a residential, failed to submit any credible evidence that he committed a

residential burglary by entering her apartment with the intent to commit a felony.

But if he did kick down the door and walk inside, that's entering with intent.

At least it could be argued that.

And then in that case, the residential burglary still is there for the defense case.

Right.

But, but I mean, I don't know.

Well, I'll get to the 1118.

Yeah.

Okay.

But it was, it was a week 1118.

So, so the DA's close at the 1118.

Cause I also asked the DA, I was like, okay, just to confirm.

And if you, I'd ask you that you amend the complaint to allege the specific felony.

Cause I assume it's the DV.

And he's like, yeah, that's our theory is that it's the DV.

So I make the 1118.

And I tell the judge like, look so much, there was enough time that passed between him initially

entering and his conduct inside into when the alleged strangling occurred outside that

there's not enough beyond a reasonable doubt that when he entered across the threshold,

he had that specific intent to strangle her.

It'd be different if he was texting her, like, you know, I'm going to get you when I get in

there, I'm going to strangle you.

That's different.

Cause that shows his intent prior to entering.

But I mean, my, my whole argument was like, well, if he had the intent, he would have done

it soon.

Not, you know, wait till she was outside.

Yeah.

But the judge denied it and said, well, it's a week burglary, but it's enough to go to a

jury.

Yeah.

That's fine.

Yeah.

Look, I mean, it's, it's, it's argument.

Hey, that's your argument.

That's your interpretation.

You can, you argue that to the jury in closing argument.

So yeah, I get it.

I can kind of get it.

That's what I got.

Yeah.

All right.

So then, um, all right.

So then now it's time for the defense.

Tell us about it.

So I had, um, the impeachment witness for the alleged victim lined up.

She was in court.

I told her, you need to wait outside.

I'm sorry.

She was understanding.

She's like, no, I get it.

But the way the trial was, this is Sydney.

Yeah.

Um, the way the trial was going, I was like,

I'm ahead, you know?

Um, so that's, that's what I was thinking of.

My client was like, no, no, no.

Like she's good for us.

And I'm like, I know she is, but like, you know, if you're winning a race, you don't decide

to stop and take a sip of water.

And then also, cause I was on the fence.

And so I asked one of the, I asked the court clerk and he was like, he told me he was a

cop in Alabama prior to becoming a court clerk.

Um, why he made the career choice change.

I don't know.

But I asked her, I asked him, do you think she's credible?

And his response was, fuck no.

So I was like, okay, I was pretty emphatic.

Yeah.

I was like, I think, I think we're ahead.

And so I eventually told the client, you know, even though it's my call, I kind of want my

client to keep his composure.

I was like, I think we're ahead.

Just put some trust in me.

He's like, okay.

You know, I, I trust you.

So I didn't call her.

Okay.

Great.

Yeah.

So no need, there's no need.

You're ahead.

Yeah.

It's a tough call though.

I mean, it worked out.

So it's easy to say now, like, oh, sure.

No need.

But in the moment you have to decide and that, that can feel like a big decision.

I probably would have called her.

I would have called her too.

I think I would have.

I always put up my, I always put up my evidence, you know, like, a part of me, I know,

I was like, you brought her down there.

You made her come to court.

She was right there in the hallway, bro.

Yeah.

I know.

I felt bad, but I was like, oh.

Just playing games, Hoffmeister.

I know.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Yeah.

But, uh, so I was like, nope, no witnesses.

And the DA was like, oh, okay.

Yeah.

We'll do, let's do closing now then.

That's another benefit though, is if they're expecting you to do it, you can throw them off

their game by saying, nope, get up now and close.

And like, that was, that case bled over from the first day or that testimony bled over from

the first to the second day.

So we were actually planning on closing the next day, not that day.

So, you know.

Surprise closing argument.

Yeah.

So he had to scramble during jury selection to get ready for closing.

I mean, jury instructions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah.

And I, I had, I had a PowerPoint that was loosely put together, but I put some fine touches.

I deleted a slide.

You did PowerPoint?

Ew.

I know.

I, so, yeah, I know.

I know.

I know.

I know.

Laura, Laura, times are changing.

You're supposed to do PowerPoint now.

Oh, I just, I think it's so prosecutorial.

Like, they start with their little seal and they click through.

Oh, yeah.

They like that shit though.

Oh, I hate it.

Their people are, some people are visual.

They like that visual stuff.

You have to do, you have to do something visual.

I like the Elmo.

I do Elmo too.

I like go old school.

I write stuff on there.

Yeah.

See, I have horrible handwriting and I tried that one time and, uh, one of my supervisors

when I was in LA told me, he was like, I don't think the jurors could read what you wrote.

And I was like, okay, so let's do PowerPoint from now on.

All right.

So you had a PowerPoint.

Yeah.

And, uh.

Did you set it to music?

No, I should have.

I had a real slick proof beyond a reasonable doubt, uh, feature.

Okay.

99 problems, but a bitch ain't one.

No.

Well, actually the music I was going to choose was Hit Me If You're Best Shot, but I think

that would have been.

Um, but, uh, but no, yeah, I did PowerPoint.

DA did it too.

You know, like Lauren said, like, I feel like you don't even have to see it to know what's

in it.

It's like, okay, they're going to do the seal.

They're going to, here they, they always, when they talk about what the jury's not supposed

to consider, they have this, like, it's not a pie chart, what do they call it?

Venn diagram, where it's like two circles.

Venn diagram, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, two circles, like, you can't consider this, this, and it's like, okay, yeah.

Um, yeah.

Do you want to talk about your, you have to talk about your closing argument.

Oh, yeah.

You don't have to tell us about your PowerPoint unless you really want to, but tell us about

your closing argument.

Um, well, so my closing argument, I just told the jury, I was like, I highlighted all her

bias, I said, at worst case, it's circumstantial.

Also, I told the jurors, like, supposedly, because the, I don't know if I made this clear,

but the alleged victim said, somebody else saw this.

There is a neighbor that supposedly saw this.

They didn't call her.

She's an unbiased witness.

And also, I got off from the cop that the only person who called 911 was the alleged victim.

So if my client supposedly strangles somebody in front of somebody who has a phone, does,

you know, what, if this really happened, that person would have called 911, or you would have

heard from them.

But you can't, and I said, I told the jurors, you can't speculate what she would have said,

but if you have wanted to have heard from them, you have a doubt because you're not convinced

with what she's saying.

And I don't blame you.

She was all over the place.

She, the cop even said, she told him a different story than what she was telling you.

And so it was kind of straightforward.

Yeah, straightforward.

And then I, and then prior to closing the, I objected to the DA's PowerPoint because he

wanted to argue vandalism for the phone and the door.

And so I told him like, look at the complaint.

You only alleged the door.

And he goes, well, I'm going to amend.

And I was like, dude, I waived prelim.

You didn't prove this up.

And I stip, we had a disagreement.

I said, I told him, I stipulate to a factual basis based on the facts and the complaint.

Because if you waive prelim, you lock them into that.

And just so people listening know, vandalism is a wobbler.

So it can be a misdemeanor or a felony.

The line there is how much the value of the property is.

A phone is obviously going to be in felony range.

And for felonies, if they haven't proved it up at the prelim, then they cannot add it later.

Yeah.

If they charge it as a misdemeanor, he could have alleged it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he didn't.

He didn't think that far.

Yeah.

He eventually conceded.

It was like, fine, I'll just talk about the door.

And I was like, and it was funny when he was giving his PowerPoint, he had like photos

of the phone.

He just like glossed through them.

But so, so I did my closing.

He gets up for his B argument and he starts talking about DUIs.

Yeah.

So he, he said like defense counsel was just trying to, well, he's saying I'm trying to

divide and conquer.

Cause he's like, defense is saying this bit of evidence is false and this bit of evidence

is false, but it's a total picture.

You know, it's like with defense arguing a DUI because they say, oh, if his eyes are red

and watery, he was tired.

Yeah.

It just, I.

It sounds like he was desperate.

What, what's the story with the self?

Oh, go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Continue.

Oh no.

I was going to say, I, I like this prosecutor.

I work with him.

I work well with him, but yeah, I was with the DUI example.

I was like, I, what, what's the story with the, um, the cell phone in the pool though?

That is interesting how that did like, did a cell phone end up in a pool?

Really?

Did it really happen?

Was that testified to, did, I think I would have latched onto that.

She put it in rice.

I mean, when the cops, when the cops showed up or Lisa, when it was finally examined by

the police, it was just in rice.

It wasn't in a pool.

It wasn't in a pool.

No.

And like, there was no evidence of it being a pool other than her statement.

Yeah.

I mean, she literally could have taken a dry phone and put it on rice because people

would take wet electronics and put them on white rice that you were supposed to do when

you drop your cell phone in the toilet.

Yeah.

I mean, she was willing.

She said to call the police before he got there to send him to jail.

Why wouldn't she be willing to pretend the phone?

It's literally, look, he threw my cell phone in the pool.

You see, it's in rice right now.

Well, it was funny.

The DA didn't put, uh, the DA didn't put a layout of the apartment complex.

Uh, uh.

Did you say that's rice of bologna?

No.

Well, I argued they didn't even prove that they had a pool.

David D coming in with the dad jokes.

That's a bunch of rice of bologna, dude.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

The shame you didn't have us helping you script your ear.

Yeah, I know.

Then you just like, then your PowerPoint, you know.

Mic drop.

Okay.

So, that's your closing argument.

Um, anything else you want to share about that before we move on?

Nah, it was.

Oh, no.

Sorry, sorry.

So, the DA at one point, like I said, uh, he started talking about how he subpoenaed her to be here.

That's the only reason why she was here.

And I was like, objection.

Seems facts, not evidence.

And the judge is like, yeah, you never got into.

Well, that's not allowed.

Yeah, I was like, you never got into the fact that she was subpoenaed.

I mean, but that doesn't make his case look any better.

So.

No, it doesn't.

I don't know why he decided to do that.

Well, also in his, sorry, in his B argument, his second argument, he said that she had

to be re-victimized by having defense counsel cross her.

And I was like, objection.

Come on.

Oh, that's not allowed either.

Yeah.

The judge shut it down.

He's like, no, you can't.

You can't.

You can't say that.

I thought you liked this prosecutor.

I do.

Well, I mean, I still like him because I won.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's cool when the proctor is cool when he's, when he has a strong case, but when he has

a weak case, his true colors are shown.

All right.

So then that's it for the closing arguments.

Now it's time for jury deliberations.

How long did the jurors deliberate for?

So the jury got the case at like three o'clock on Tuesday.

And then Juneteenth was that Wednesday.

So they had that day off.

Right.

So we come back off.

Yeah.

So we come back on Thursday and the jury's out.

But like at 10 a.m.

we get a question.

And it turns out that the jurors got an exhibit that was never admitted.

So the prosecutor wanted to admit all of the cop's body cam and had it on a thumb drive.

And I objected.

And I was like, look, there's stuff that you excluded that they talk about in this body cam.

And so he eventually, I guess he just decided, I'm just not going to admit it.

But he marked it as a court exhibit.

But somehow they got that.

And the jurors did it.

Yeah.

So I'm like, yeah.

And so this has been a problem in SAC.

Like we had a rape case that got, well, we got a new trial granted because the jurors

apparently got our client's confession that was excluded.

And they convicted.

So this is a potential mistrial.

Yeah.

Because I was like, I literally, I come into court because like they say, hey, we got a

question, but they won't tell me what it is.

I come in.

I'm like, what's up?

And they explain it.

And I, I literally go for fuck's sake.

You know, because this is your boy.

This is the clerk.

This is the guy who told you that the club hunting witness is not believable.

Yeah.

I don't think it was nefarious, but it's still like, come on, we're trying.

The jurors are only supposed to consider the evidence they were given.

But, um, so the court brings the jurors in and the jurors go, we put it in, we put the thumb

drive into the computer.

We saw the first image.

We didn't press play.

And we all said, we were never shown this.

Can we watch it?

And the court, the court essentially said, well, they didn't view it.

So I'm not going to declare a mistrial, but you know, you make your motion.

Right.

It makes it seem like we're hiding something from them.

Yeah.

That's what I argued.

I was like, the juror, like, they're going to wonder what's in this and why weren't they

giving it, you know, like the judge was like, well, you know, it could have been good for

you.

The jurors could think that.

And I'm like, the jurors are thinking that.

They're never going to think that it's good for the defense.

Yeah.

So, um.

So you made your motion for mistrial?

Denied.

Yeah.

And then, so, you know, the jurors go back and deliberate and then, um, they wanted read

back of the alleged victim's testimony.

They got that.

Then the next question we got was, um, can we have defense counsels opening?

Yeah.

That's not evidence.

No, it's not.

That's what we told them.

And I didn't know how to take that.

I was like, wait, did I promise too much?

Yeah.

But they can't ask for more argument.

I mean, it just happened.

Yeah.

I've never had it happen.

I've never had it call.

So they were asking for like read back or they wanted you to actually get up and say

something again?

No, they wanted read back of my opening.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's how I took it.

So, so what, what you speculate as to why they wanted that?

Do you know why?

I, I don't know.

I can guess.

Maybe it's because you didn't call Sydney.

Well, maybe they wanted to see, maybe they wanted to see if, you know, your opening statements

based off what you've been told and everything you thought was.

So maybe they want to see if you were told something different also to see if there's

anything, any problems with your case.

Right.

Because none of your problems were presented to the jurors.

Yeah.

Maybe they're trying to look for something to vote guilty and they couldn't find anything.

Mm-hmm.

So, I mean, but we'll never know.

Yeah.

I forgot to ask one of the jurors that, but yeah.

All right.

So, yeah.

And then after that question.

So the jurors come back with the, with the verdict.

Tell us about the reading of the verdict.

Yeah.

So on the verdict.

Did I cut you off?

Are you about to say something?

I'm sorry.

No, no.

I was going to say, yeah, we get the call for the verdict.

And they say they're hung on one count and we found out that they were hung in the vandalism.

And I was like, that's weird, but I think it leans in my favor because why would you,

why would you think that there wasn't enough evidence to prove he kicked in the door when

you thought there was enough evidence to prove he strangled her and entered in with that intent?

Like, that's why I was like, if they're, if they're hung on the vandalism, I think I

got an acquittal, but it was weird.

Yeah.

So we then go down to the, to the court, uh, to the courthouse.

Um, and I, I called my client's family cause they were like, let us know when the verdicts

are.

So I'm like, okay, I called them.

They managed to make it in time.

And so then the jury comes in and I try to look at the jurors when they come in.

You sent out a text on your baby mama text, right?

No, I called them.

Oh, if only we had a group chat.

Oh, the baby mama bat phone just sent out that signal.

Baby mamas unite.

Yeah.

Oh boy.

Yeah.

But they, they all were there.

Um, a part of me was also like, like, fuck, if I lose this, I'm going to hear it from a

lot of people.

Um, but so we get to the courthouse, everybody's there and you know, the, the jurors file in,

I try to look at them.

They're not giving me anything.

Um, and, uh, the, the DA actually had, uh, asked for lessers on like all the charges he

could, so he got a lesser on attempted Berg, uh, attempted, attempted, uh, domestic violence,

uh, simple battery, um, simple spousal abuse.

So it was like, there was like actually like 15 verdict forms, but when the clerk read it,

he only read the, the primary charges.

And so he goes, count one, not guilty, count two, not guilty.

And then on the, the misdemeanor five, nine, 1.5, the stealing the phone during the night

one call, he's like, not guilty.

And then the DA turns to me and goes, they didn't read the lessers.

And so we do a sidebar and he goes, your honor, they didn't read the lessers.

And the judge goes, oh, they acquitted them of that too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll read them.

So we sat back down and then, you know, lesser included, not guilty.

Less included, not guilty.

Oh, that had to feel good.

Yeah.

Part of it was like, yeah.

Cause here's the thing.

I knew that they were not guilty.

Cause I was like, if the judge would read that, if it was a guilty verdict, you know,

like, yeah, so I was like, no one's letting your client go.

Yeah.

But it's nice that the DA insisted on sitting there for the humiliation anyway.

Yeah.

And so it was nice.

How'd your client react?

My client turned to me afterward.

He's like, okay, so what now?

And I'm like, well, I'm going to get you home.

So I actually, I tried to, cause the, the only count they hung on was a misdemeanor.

Um, and so I asked the court to dismiss it.

Cause I was like, you know, like, what was the split?

10-2 towards guilt.

Towards guilt.

10 guilty to not guilty.

Yeah.

10 guilty to not guilty.

Which misdemeanor?

The vandalism of the, of the door.

Oh.

So 10 people thought he did vandalize the door, even though it was on a, cause there was like

a little chip on the thing missing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which, what about, what about the resisting?

We didn't really hear much about the resisting.

So the resisting was a separate case.

They didn't, they didn't try to merge them.

So.

Oh, okay.

And that, and that resisting actually got excluded.

So the jurors never heard about it.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, um, so I asked the court to dismiss.

He says no.

And then I'm like, okay.

With the prosecution, split favor of prosecution.

Okay.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

All right.

And so I then go, okay, like my, my client wanted a misto and I was like, you want to

go home?

And he's like, yeah.

I was like, well, let's resolve for the misto.

And he's like, I'm fine with that as long as I go home.

So I go out to the prosecutor.

I talked to him and I'm like, Hey dude, my guy's been in for 156 actual days.

Let's just time serve, cut him, time serve, cut him loose.

You know?

And the DA goes, I want him to spend another week or two in custody.

And I got, I got mad at him and I was like, oh, fuck this.

Yeah.

So we go back to the judge and, uh, it's funny.

I like this judge and he's very personable, but he was back on his phone with his feet

up on his desk.

Oh, he thought he was done.

He thought he was done.

And he comes in and he's like, so what's up guys?

And I was like, your honor, I need a court offer.

I want time served on the misto.

And he goes, isn't that the DA's offer?

And I'm like, no, they want another week or two.

And the, and the, and the, the DA is like, yeah, because the conduct of kicking in the

door and the strangling was egregious.

And he's like, but they acquitted him of that.

And so the DA was like, well, I still want him to do another week or two.

And the judge goes, yeah, he's not doing that.

Give him time served.

So we were misdemeanor, right?

On a misdemeanor.

So we resolved all my client's cases.

He went home.

With probation or no probation?

With probation, with probation, because it's, it's a year on the misto and a year on the-

Yeah, but how is he not maxed out?

Didn't he, didn't he, I mean, he, you said it was actual credit.

I mean, he's basically done.

180 is actual.

I know 180 is actual for that, but there, if you had just said max him out, they would have

released him.

Not in Sac County.

They will hold, so he also had the 148, too, that he, that he resolved.

So he had two years, sorry, he had two years exposure.

So, um.

All right, that's a little different.

Yeah, sorry, I should have added that, but yeah.

Because I would have just been like, fuck it, max him out then.

They're going to release him.

It's like, they hold him for the full 50, because here's the thing, in Sac County, or

in Sac County, a lot of times.

You don't have enough people?

You're not overcrowded like that?

Well, it's, they have many issues in the jail, but yeah.

Releasing people early is not something they like doing.

But yeah, so I got my client home that day.

He got to see his kids.

Yeah.

That's so weird.

That is a weird split.

So I talked to some of the.

Go ahead, talk to the jurors.

I talked to some of the jurors, because I was like, that's a weird split.

And my client was fine with that resolution, but some of the jurors said, the reason why

the two acquitted, because apparently they thought the DA didn't even prove he was ever

there, and I was like, that wasn't even my theory, but okay.

Hey, I like it.

I like it.

Whatever works.

You know, like.

Yeah.

And I, when I talked to one of the jurors after his, he was a teacher, which is actually

why I kept him, because I was like, I feel like this guy knows when someone's lying.

He said that they just thought the alleged victim was not credible.

She was all over the place.

And also, she was texting somebody in the middle of her testimony, which is like.

It's a bad look.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What, all right.

Any other, like, stories we may have missed about this case, or things that you liked or

enjoyed, or anything personal happened along your journey with this case, or that you're

going through your personal life?

After the case, my client gets released, and I was in a supermarket in the area of Sacramento

I live in, and I run into one of my client's relatives who attended a trial, and she was

happy with what I did, and so I flagged her down, and I was like, oh, hey.

Honestly, I forget her name.

And so she thanked me again.

So you run up to her with your shopping cart?

No.

Hey.

It was one of those things, like, where she, I'm going down the aisle, she's going in front

of the aisle, like, going to another aisle, and then we just kind of locked eyes, and I

was like, oh.

And then we just kind of talked for a bit, and she thanked me again, and JJ was doing

fine, reunited with his kids, you know.

Great.

Anything else we may have missed or didn't ask, but you should share anything like that?

No.

Okay, cool.

All right.

Well, Kyle, thanks for coming on the show and sharing us.

Thanks for reaching out to another Not Guilty.

We always love hearing from you.

Yeah.

We miss you.

We miss you down here.

I don't know.

He's all out on In-N-Out.

It sounds like he belongs in Northern California.

So, okay, the reason why I don't like In-N-Out is because I think their patties are too thin.

Like, I'm not saying it's a bad burger.

Okay.

Their patties could stand to be thicker.

Right.

And people are like, we'll just get a double-double.

And I'm like, okay, why am I going to pay more for an additional patty when, like, I don't

know, I'm thinking like a base burger.

I think the line's too long.

It's never worth the wait.

Oh, my God.

The lines.

It's just always 20 people in line.

Yeah.

And it's not quick.

The drive there is horrible.

Their fries are limp.

That's dope.

See?

I mean, wow.

Just keep – I'm saying.

Right.

I feel like you found a great place in Northern California.

All right, Kyle.

Well, it's been great hearing from you.

Glad you've been on the show.

Thanks for hanging out with us.

Before we go, we got our last question, which we asked you last time, but it's been a while,

so we'll ask again, Kyle.

Like, Kyle, tell the A&G universe why you became a public defender or why are you still

a public defender?

Yeah, maybe still.

Why did you leave the office to be a public defender somewhere else?

You know, what's going on?

What's what your public defender is?

Well, the reason why I'm still a public defender is I love this profession.

I think that if you want to be a good trial attorney, being a public defender is probably

one of the best experiences you can have.

And I also – I love fighting for the underdog.

I also love how – I love how at the start of a case, it looks so bad, and then by the

end of it, when we get a not guilty verdict, we show the jurors that, like, look, this system

was trying to drag my client down, and we stood up to them.

We stood up to them together.

That's why I like it.

Yeah.

That's what keeps me going.

It's a good feeling.

It's good.

The power.

The power to take down that team.

Fuck the man.

Amen.

Well, I did this also at zero expense to my client because I feel like – can you imagine

if I lost this case and I charged my client, like, $10,000, $20,000?

I'm like, you're going to prison, but, like, yeah, write that check.

I like the idea of the free trials.

Like, oh, we could do a trial for free?

Oh, that's so cool because you always hear about, like, people not being able to afford

an attorney.

I'm like, oh, free trials?

That's awesome.

Like, it's house money.

Why not?

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, thanks for coming on the show.

And, Lauren, thanks for seeing you.

Always a pleasure, guys.

Thanks, guys.

Oh, and go Dodgers.

Go Dodgers.

Oh, no.

Okay, bye.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

Shout out to Daniel Mark, original A&G theme music composer, and Mike Grimm for the remix.

And guess what?

We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.

We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.