The Shaggy Defense – When Eyewitnesses Say "It Wasn't Me"

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The jurors filed back in, and the juror, the one, he looked at her, and he was like, "It's not guilty. I can see how she looked at me. It's not guilty. I can feel how she looked at me." She's like, "Are you kidding me?" He's like, "No, I'm telling you. I'm telling you, Ms. Lord, I can tell. It's not guilty. I can see how she looked at me." And I was just like, you know, and I'm sitting there like, "Whatever it is, don't have a reaction." You know,

either way it goes, just, we're gonna, and he's like, "It's a not guilty, though. I can tell how she looked at me." And I was just like, "All right."

Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore. Here, along with my fellow public defenders, presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection. That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system. These stories are about the not-guilty as public defenders get on a daily basis. In an unjust criminal system. With the deck stacked against us.

Another Not Guilty.

And welcome back, everybody, to Another Not Guilty. It's your boy, Davey D. here,

with bringing you the freshest not-guilties across America.

Got public defenders all over the place, kicking ass in courtroom. We're just here to bring the stories to you.

Of course, I'm really excited today, because that co-hosting with me is somebody who I started with in the public defenders office. It's my boy, Benny. Benny, how you doing, buddy?

I'm good, David. That was a good intro.

Really?

Yeah, Davey D. You brought it.

I told you, man. I told you. I've been stepping up my game lately. I've been practicing on the drive over all morning.

In the rearview mirror in the car?

Right. Yeah.

How you doing, Benny?

I'm good. I'm good. I'm glad to be here. And I got to say, I was a little nervous. He said we got public defenders from Chicago, and I was like, "Oh my God, what's this case going to be?"

But this is a podcast with happy endings, right?

Right.

Yeah, so I'm less nervous, but I'm excited to hear.

That's true. It's not about us. It's all about these awesome Chicago public defenders that are with us today to share some of the amazing work that they're doing down there.

And let's introduce them now. We have Caden and Radiance.

Hey.

Hi.

This is perfect, because Radiance and I started our office together. So we were hired at the same time, too.

We were baby PDs together at the beginning, and we did this trial years later together, and we're still working together.

Yep.

That's great.

We sat next to each other at orientation.

Whoa.

Me and Davey D sat next to each other in our first office.

Look at that.

Look at that.

Look at that.

Yeah, and Benny forgot his pen and paper, so I had to give him some extra pen and paper.

He's like, "Can I borrow that law book?"

I'm like, "Okay, here's the penal code," you know.

I was lost.

I'm sure he's glad to have you.

I was lost without Davey D.

We work for Cook County, which is the county that's in Chicago.

And then Radiance and I handle mostly, if not all, Chicago cases.

Right on.

Right on.

Right on.

And I think normally, usually how we get our guests on this podcast is because someone sends

me an email saying they want to be on the show through the website, but I think I reached

out to Radiance on Twitter.

Is that how it happened?

It is.

So I had been listening to the podcast for a while.

One of my other coworkers mentioned it and I was like, "Okay, I'm going to listen."

And so I had been listening and I remember hearing, I think it was you saying that you guys get

like discovery at arraignment or at preliminary hearing or all of the discovery.

And I was like, "That's amazing.

I wish that happened in Kirk County because I don't know that life."

And then you did reach out after I tweeted that.

I tend to do some tweeting about work.

And so I tweeted, "It would be nice to get discovery that early in the process."

That doesn't happen here.

Well, there you go.

And you hear that, Public Defender World, keep up the tweets.

You never know.

You might just end up on another not guilty because Davey D is watching.

But anyway, so Radins, you said that you have a colleague or a friend that has a pretty amazing

not guilty story to share.

And then you brought in Caden along with us.

So Caden, tell us about this trial that you did, ending in not guilty and take it away.

All right.

So at our courthouse, we're assigned to one courtroom.

And there are, at the time I was in that courtroom, there were three of us who were handling all

the cases that came in there.

And I was the most junior lawyer in there.

And it happened to be my week that I get the assignments and I go and I meet this client.

He's a kid.

He's in the lock up in the back.

He's really, he's probably like six foot four, long dread, long skinny dreadlocks.

And maybe weighs like 140 pounds.

He is as thin as a rail.

And he was 19 years old.

And I was really nervous because he was charged with attempt murder.

Right from the beginning, I knew that it was 31 to life he could get because of.

It was a personal discharge of a firearm and he caused injury with it.

They were saying he caused injury with it.

He was also charged for another victim with aggravated discharge.

And that's just where you shoot in the direction of somebody, knowing you might hit them.

And that person sustained sustained some abrasions to his hand from like falling away as he was

trying to get away.

But they, they charged that too.

So here was my client.

He was looking at 31 years to life.

He was only 19 years old.

And, um, they were like, Hey, new lawyer.

Here you go.

Take this case.

Go handle this.

Um.

Wow.

So yeah.

Attempted murder with discharge of a fire and then attempted murder with what type of enhancement?

So the attempt murder is the baseline and the minimum for that is six years in Illinois.

And that, so that's six to 30.

And then we have firearm enhancements.

So if a firearm was used during the commission of it, it's a 15 year addition.

If the person personally discharged it, it's a 20 year addition.

And if the person discharged it and caused an injury, such as in this case, it's a 25 year addition.

So we went from six to 31 just on the charge alone.

And it's a great conversation talking to your client about all these enhancements.

So like, what are you talking about?

Right.

This and this and this, and then you just give some crazy big number.

Right.

A 19 year old just can't comprehend being in jail for or in prison for 31 years.

And, and if we had lost, it was very, if we went to try on it and lost with these facts, which I'll get into, it was very unlikely that we were going to get the minimum.

I mean, your, your client's facing these serious charges.

What, what did they, what did he allegedly do?

They were saying that he shot somebody 10 times.

And what happened is the person, the complaining witness in this case, who we're going to call Caesar, because I hate saying complaining witness a hundred times.

Right.

Or you predict them.

So Caesar was outside his house when somebody came up and shot him 10 times.

And then that person fled.

And, and Caesar wasn't alone.

There were a bunch of people out there, including the second CW.

And that person was running away and says that, um, our client, uh, shot at him and it happened on a Chicago street in front of a typical Chicago bungalow, which is a long narrow house with a big picture window in the front.

So it's like a half story up to get to the front door.

You have to walk up like five or six steps.

So you walk up the stoop and then you go into the house.

And from inside of that bungalow at the front window, they said that a 13 year old boy had seen the whole thing.

So Caesar got shot.

They called for an ambulance.

And when the ambulance was there, Caesar said, Shaggy did it.

Shaggy did it.

And Shaggy is our client.

That's his nickname.

After he had been shot 10 times.

He's still talking.

Yes.

Wow.

Um, and then the 13 year old boy that witnessed it was where?

In the front of the house, but inside the house.

So in the front, the front room of the house, looking out the window, his view was looking down on the sidewalk towards, and it, and Caesar was his brother.

So towards his brother.

Okay.

And then, um, presumably, I guess when he, when the guy who was shot said she, Caesar did it, he told this to like law enforcement and paramedics or like everybody rushed to the scene, like all the first responders.

Yeah.

And it was, it was Caesar who was shot and Caesar said Shaggy did it.

And everybody, it was to the paramedics and the other witnesses who were there.

As I mentioned, Caesar wasn't by himself.

Some people fled, but some people hung around until he got in the ambulance.

All right.

So this is, this is the case you get as a younger public defender.

You get these crazy serious charges or clients looking at tons of time and then tell us what that's like when you go into lockup and meet them.

So once I got at least a chunk of the discovery and I went and met with him and the jail.

Uh, and like I said, you just can't, um, you can't get a 19 year old to understand what this means.

And radiance didn't meet him right at the beginning, but radiance did visit him with me in the jail.

And I, I'm sure I don't want to speak for you radiance, but he was, he's just so, he was so childlike.

He was so relaxed.

Uh, Eve, every, every courtroom, every court date, he would be like, all right, miss pal, you got this.

I was like, are you sure you don't want an offer?

Uh, early based on when I met him, I thought one, he was confident in, in Kate and ability.

By that point he had, you know, they had been working together for a while and he was confident in what she could do.

But I also just think he was just kind of like, there's no way that they're going to get me on this.

And I don't know if it had to do with his guilt or innocence.

It was just like, there's no way they're going to get me on this.

This is just not going to happen.

Um, and I, I don't know what that stemmed from, but.

What did he say when you told him about the charges?

It wasn't me.

We'll get, we'll take this to trial right from the beginning.

It wasn't me.

I didn't do this.

We'll be fine.

And it's the shaggy defense.

That was not lost on you.

I'm sure.

Well, to be fair, we changed his nickname, but it fit really well.

Yeah.

So then what's that like then you meet your client and lock up.

I'm like, you're charged with attempted murder.

I don't really know why they're saying it.

I have no, no, no evidence before me in a police report, at least to go off of.

Like, are you just saying, all right, so we've got to continue your case and come back next month or in two months.

Like he has to keep waving his speedy trial, right?

We're all right.

Yes.

Um, so we, I mean, there's nothing stopping us from starting our investigation.

So, okay, Shaggy, it wasn't you.

What can we look into?

Who, where were you?

Um, do you have any witnesses that I can talk to?

Ooh, no, no, no, no, no.

Can't help you, Miss Powell.

Can't help you.

So.

Like if you, it wasn't you, who's your alibi witness?

No, no, nobody.

No.

Don't have anyone.

And I'm in, I'm in juvenile court right now.

And that's how it is with every kid.

When you ask them anything to try to, you know, when I'm like, okay, let's stop playing defense a little, let's play offense.

You know, where, where were you?

Do you have a cell phone number I could try to, you know, get some records for?

Do you, you know, were you at your mom's house where, you know, and they just, kids don't remember, you know, Tuesday, you know, they don't remember, you know, three days ago.

It's so difficult to get anything out of them.

So what's the next development that happens in the case?

Well, we started to do our investigation because we had most of the witness statements.

And we had a ton of medical records from Caesar being at the hospital.

He was there for a long time.

And it's not like we were going, we were saying he wasn't shot or anything like that.

But, uh, uh, we wanted to look at it as far as how these drugs affected his, his memory, because they did a photo array with him.

And what drugs are you talking about?

Drugs from being treated from 10 gunshot wounds.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Uh, medical drugs.

So we started looking through that.

There were some medications in there that I was like, you know, these could affect his memory.

These could affect his memory.

We, my investigator and I went out and we spoke with, um, the little brother and we spoke, spoke with Caesar at their house where this happened.

They were very cooperative with us.

And I think the, the drug issue, she brought that up is because they did a photo array while he was in the hospital.

The police came and he identified, or he did, they did a photo array while he was under the influence of those, you know, whatever than our, the pain meds that he was on.

So when he got shot though, he was saying Shaggy did it, Shaggy did it.

So, so that I presume that he knew your client from a past incident or something like that.

Well, that's what the state was saying.

And, and they were using nicknames.

So that became part of our, our defense because you had all these people flocking as to, and then the question was like, well, who really saw what happened?

Or are you just hearing Shaggy did it?

So Shaggy must've done it.

And then you tell that person and that person tells this person, and then it's on Facebook.

And I, I mean, there was somebody in the police report that the police took him down as saying Shaggy did it, but that guy hadn't been at the scene.

And that was later reflected in a police report.

So it was just a lot of rumor at the beginning, but there was no getting around him saying Shaggy did it.

Shaggy did it as he's laying on the sidewalk.

And, and Benny, you mentioned something like 10 shots.

Yep.

That sounds like a temp murder.

The little brother's description was really bad.

Like he started shooting.

And then once Caesar fell down, he continued to walk towards him, stood over him and shot him some more.

So there was no getting around that.

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How did your client get arrested?

What, was it the next day, two days later, a week later?

How do they find Shaggy or connect your client to Shaggy?

They use...

Because his Facebook name is Shaggy.

His Facebook name was Shaggy, yeah.

That's okay.

I mean, there's probably a lot of Shaggy's out there, you know?

Exactly.

Did Caesar know your client from...

Was he a Shaggy that he knew from his past?

Yes.

He knew him by his nickname.

From the neighborhood.

Okay.

So your sort of defense here, it sounds like a lot of people didn't see this and they're

not really able to ID.

And then what you're saying is that Caesar, in this moment of stress being shot and then

being under the influence, made a wrong ID, that this is not the correct person.

Right.

And then it spread like wildfire.

So it became reinforced that that was the person.

And we went, our whole attitude was, Caesar's evidence, any evidence that he brought in front

of the trial, like the photo array, anything like that, we're like, it's not reliable because

he was on so much medication.

Um, so that's what we were prepared for going to talk to these guys.

And just to clarify, we're talking about a photo array.

Is this like a six pack?

Yeah.

Six pack photo lineup, I guess.

And the police take Shaggy's picture with five other similar looking people showed that

photograph, that photo array to Caesar while he was under the influence of narcotics at

the hospital.

And Caesar circled your guy, right?

Right.

What happens next then?

So Caesar was very cooperative, him and his brother.

His brother, they showed us the front room that his brother was in.

Uh, it had curtain blinds at the time, but, or it didn't have blinds at the time.

It had blinds when we went and interviewed them, but it didn't have blinds before that.

They showed us where Caesar had been shot, where he was laying on the ground.

When the person came and shot him some more, they showed us the basement stairs because the

brother was in the house with his grandmother and two small children.

And the brother said that as soon as he heard shooting, he grabbed his, uh, I think they were

cousins, grabbed the little ones, got them in the basement and then came back up.

And that was not reflected in any of the police reports.

And that really affected his opportunity to observe what happened.

So you're saying that when you went to go to the, to the scene and speak to the 13 year

old brother, he told you that he, her gunshots grabbed the younger kids and went down into

the basement, right?

Yes.

He did say he immediately came back up and he said that he still saw it when he got to

the back to the front of the, the front room.

Okay.

What did you think of that?

I didn't think it was possible.

Why?

The house went front room, sitting room, dining room, kitchen and the basement.

And that's, that's from the street to the alley.

That's how it was lined up.

And the stairwell was closer to the kitchen from the dining room.

So if he was in the front room, he would have had to pick up or push two small children,

get them down a full flight of stairs and then get himself back up.

And it was, it was at least 10 shots.

That's how many times that Caesar was hit.

But he then testified that he heard more shots than 10 shots.

And did he say that he, the shooting had stopped by the time he went back upstairs?

He said that there was a first shot, a first group of shots, like 10 shots is what he testified

to with a pause followed by six more.

And he was heading towards the front window and at the front window for those six more.

And, and so you, you definitely, or not definitely, but did you start like taking pictures of

this house and, and, you know, get ready for trial?

Cause it sounds like you're going to argue this 13 year old can't really make an identification.

And what was the angle from the window looking down to the street?

I know earlier you said it was a little bit higher.

So, so Caesar had been at the sidewalk at the bottom of the stoop.

So you have to walk up maybe six or seven stories, but, or excuse me, steps, but the stairs, right?

The, the front lawn was very narrow, probably only five feet of five foot setback.

It wasn't, it wasn't that it was a very shallow front yard and from the sidewalk to the house.

And so he was looking at a downward angle, like he would be seeing more of the top of these people's heads than their faces.

And that's something we used in our trial as well.

So we took pictures from where he was standing.

We took pictures of the house showing where the basement stairwell is.

And then of course we took some pictures up front and there were trees out there as well.

There were some big oak trees with a lot of leaves on them that could have interfered with his ability to see anybody coming in or, or leaving the scene.

And then we also spoke with Caesar and Caesar was like, I don't remember anything that doesn't look like my signature on that photo array.

I don't remember talking to anybody at the hospital.

And he said, I don't, they, I, he said, I still have memory problems.

I'm still on medication because of getting shot 10 times within the year.

I'm still on medication.

He has a back problems.

He has a leg problem.

He was limping when he came to court.

Um, so I had been prepared to hire an expert to explain what these medications would do to somebody's memory and their ability to answer questions like who's the person who shot you.

And we didn't even have to do that because I had a prover there.

And this guy's just like, I don't remember it at all.

I don't.

And he said, he said, they told me that I said shaggy, but I don't even remember that.

And I don't know why I said it.

There are so, there's so many things wrong with this ID.

It's just blowing my mind right now.

And it's the same officers that are investigating it, showing them the ID.

And it's just like every, you know, who actually saw this?

I mean, and then, uh, another part of our investigation that came much closer to trial is they had arrested somebody within minutes of the shooting.

Uh, a tall ish, um, probably medium to thin build black man with, uh, skinny dreadlocks in the vicinity who had a gun on him.

So they had arrested him and they later, um, released him.

They didn't charge him with this, but so we were looking into that as well.

Is there any other pre-trial work that you've done?

We also tried to find the other witnesses, but nobody else was cooperating with us.

Nobody else was making themselves available.

What about the, the, the guy who ran away the second complaining witness?

We couldn't find them.

We went to where he, uh, lived.

Nobody was there.

We tried to talk to people about them.

Um, we could not find them.

So how did Radiance end up?

How did Radiance end up on the case?

So I had had the case for about a year and we were getting close to trial time and she is one of the best lawyers at our office.

So I was just so lucky that she said yes.

I appreciate you saying that, but, uh, yeah, no.

Um, but yeah, she asked me to believe.

We do.

We work well together.

We hadn't done a trial together.

I think we had probably tried and then the trials just ended up not going.

Clients ended up taking offers.

And so this was one that she was like, do you, you want to do it with me?

And I was like, oh, great.

And I, you know, I liked the second chair trials.

I love, uh, obviously we all do it because we love trial work and I do really love first chairing, but second chairing is something a little bit like it's like you're in the game, but it's not like all on your shoulders.

So I was like, okay, cool.

I'll do it.

Um, and I think at that point I was in a drug and gun room.

So this was something a little more serious than what I had been doing at the time.

So I was like, yeah, let's do it.

Um, and so I came in and the first thing we did.

And the first thing we did was we went to go see the client.

Um, and we were showing him some, we were trying to show him some video.

I don't know what the video was, but the technology was not working.

The sound was very low.

He couldn't hear.

He was like, it's okay.

It's fine.

I know you got it.

Like he was just very much like, no, no, it's good.

And I was just like, okay.

He had, so he had been in custody for over a year at this point.

And he was still very optimistic.

Every time you saw him not complaining about his situation or circumstances or anything.

He didn't complain once.

And he, and, and radiance and shaggy were a great fit.

Um, they, he really liked working with her.

He, I mean, you gotta get that 19 year old to trust you, which wasn't too hard in this case.

I almost wish he was a little bit more reserved, but he was, he, he completely trusted us to do what we had to get done for him.

And, and it was rare because he didn't even get like antsy.

This case got continued a few times.

It had been set for trial and we were ready to go and witnesses weren't showing up.

And so then we were getting dates.

Um, and I think it was like the third time it had been set is when it actually went.

So let's, um, let's talk about the jury trial then like getting, getting sent out.

Well, we got a couple more big issues that happened.

Oh, okay.

All right.

So what's the next development?

What's the next development before trial?

So we have everything ready.

Uh, the case management conference has been continued once.

This is a tough judge.

So we know the trial is going to go as soon as we can finish the next conference.

Um, and that's the time that we demanded.

We're like, okay, we're doing this.

Uh, they're having witness issues.

Let's get that clock running.

The state told us that they still haven't found the, well, actually they told us they

found the other complaining witness.

And he was in the hospital with an open abdomen because he had been shot.

And I forgot if it was 17 or 21 times.

It was a ridiculous amount.

He had been shot.

These guys are tough in Chicago, man.

10 shots.

10 shots.

Still alive.

This guy's 17 to 20 times.

He's still.

Still alive.

Still going, man.

Jesus.

What happens when you drink that Lake Michigan water?

Yeah.

I heard about that.

There's radiance.

And I like, all right, we got to file a motion on this because there's no way this can come

in.

Um, the state still didn't know what they were going to do because he was stable, but he had

an open abdomen.

So, so they didn't know what they were going to do.

And we were like, we don't care if he's here or not.

Obviously we didn't want him there, but we don't want any discussion about him getting

shot coming in.

And the judge granted that motion.

He said, nobody's talking about this other person being shot.

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All right.

So then this is right the night before trial.

So then tell us about the jury trial.

Did it start with jury selection?

We pick his jury clothes.

He was prepared for his Gucci shoes that his family was supposed to bring him, but they,

they didn't bring him.

So, you know, we're scrambling in our jury closet to get jury clothes.

So he, his family did bring him a suit and he was so excited for the suit, but they didn't

show up with the Gucci shoes.

And he was a little bummed about that.

But, but like we said, he never complained.

So, and, and does he still have his dreads at this point a year later?

Yeah.

And now that it's real and he comes into court and he's wearing a suit at this point, does

he seem a little phased?

No, he's still very confident.

Okay.

He's very confident.

Um, but I will say for him to have been so young, he was in the beginning, uh, more,

I would say involved or interested than I would think, uh, someone that age and who had been

so like, whatever, uh, would be as a second chair, you know, I'm sitting next to him.

I'm, I'm the buffer.

So he won't be tapping her on the shoulder.

And, you know, so I'm fielding all questions.

And he, when we're talking about like jurors who we don't want, who we do, he, he had opinions

and he was like, yes, I want her.

Um, no, no, let's not keep this person.

Like he, he had opinions about who he wanted on his trial.

And any, any particular moments with jurors that you remember or any particular jurors stand

out to you?

Well, one stood out to Shaggy.

Oh, so there was a, there was like a woman on who he really, really wanted.

She was a young black woman.

And he was like, if she's on this jury, I'm going to be found not guilty.

He was like, she thinks I'm cute.

Um, man, Shaggy's great.

I love this kid.

He was like, we have to keep her.

And we're like, well, I don't know.

How, how old was the woman that Shaggy thought liked her?

I would say she was like, probably like our age, right?

Like she was like in her, in her thirties.

Yeah.

I was going to say twenties.

Okay.

No, she was, I feel like she, okay.

She might've been like early thirties.

And I told her, I was like, she's just not, she's not thinking about you.

And he's like, no, she is.

She really is.

In fairness, this kid's been locked up for a year.

You know, he's just been in jail for a year.

Maybe he just wants to look at a pretty lady while he was on trial.

I don't know.

But he was very, very adamant about her.

So, you know, we, we kept her.

We did not strike.

The state didn't strike her and we did not strike her.

So she made the jury.

Shaggy's been right about a lot.

You know, he's, he's been right about a lot.

Yeah.

He has.

All right.

Well, let's, let's talk about opening statements.

Then who did that?

That was me.

Um, and we try to tell a story and open, or at least I tried to tell a story and open.

Um, and you know, my story was that it wasn't our guy.

Um, and that I did bring up the alternative that, you know, you'll hear that the police

arrested someone else.

You'll hear that no one, um, said my client's name.

No one saw my client, our client or gave the, gave a description of our client.

And he wasn't arrested until X amount of days later with no guns, no, nothing tying him

to the scene.

Um, uh, basically that a Facebook name is not enough.

Um, and it was, it was just like, he didn't, because he wouldn't really give us where we didn't

know.

Like I couldn't tell his version of events that he woke up that morning and went to the

store with his mom and ate chicken noodle soup.

Like I couldn't really do that.

So I just kind of highlighted what they wouldn't hear, um, in a story format.

So that was the opening statement.

Good.

All right.

So let's talk about the, the state of the evidence.

Who does the state put up first?

Caesar's first.

Caesar goes first.

All right.

So the guy who was shot 10 times.

He gets on the stand and says he, he didn't know who shot him.

Does he walk into the courtroom with a King?

And a bad limb.

He has dropsy.

So he couldn't like make his right foot stay up.

So, which it's sad to see a young kid like that too.

Cause he was probably in his mid twenties.

Right.

And he was just a little older than our client.

And it really, it felt to me like he told the truth.

Like he just didn't remember it.

He had been shot 10 times.

He had been under the influence of drugs due to his treatment, but the state was able to

show that video and they were able to put his photo arrays in front of them.

How does that go?

So they just showed the video and they were like, well, that happened or, and he was like,

okay, I mean, I can see the video, but the funny thing was for that photo array.

He's like, that's not my signature that he, he stuck to that.

He was like that.

I, that I don't remember signing that.

And that doesn't look like my signature.

So, and that wasn't recorded the photo identification.

Oh, so the one that happened at the hospital was never recorded.

So he said, I never signed that, anything like that.

Did, um, did, uh, Caesar know Shaggy?

Did he say, yeah, I know who Shaggy is.

That's him right there in the courtroom.

I think so.

Yes.

He knew Shaggy from the neighborhood.

He said, I cannot tell you that he shot me.

Right.

Right.

There was an in court identification of Shaggy, um, but not as the person who shot him.

And no discussion of like, why would somebody shoot you, Caesar?

Why would Shaggy shoot you?

No.

Not from the prosecutor either?

No.

All right.

So then so far, it seems like the case is going good for you guys, right?

The first witness gets up there and says, I don't know who shot me.

That's Shaggy, but I can't even tell you if he's the one who shot me.

Okay.

You know, that's, that's pretty good so far.

Right.

Who does the cross examination?

I don't know.

I'd still be a little bit nervous.

It sounds like Caesar wasn't as eventful as I thought it would be.

Like I was hoping that he's just sort of denies everything.

Like, I don't remember that.

I didn't do that signature.

You guys are putting words in my mouth, but it sounds like he's just kind of up there

just sort of like given as few words as possible.

And that's correct.

He came off as very, it came off as very much.

Like, I don't want to be here.

I very like, I don't know.

There was no adamant denials.

All right.

So who testified next?

His little brother.

And that was the toughest witness.

He was 15.

He was on the verge of tears.

Most of the time.

He was, we were cross examining him about him witnessing his brother getting shot in front

of his house 10 times.

And the jury doesn't know it, but we all know he just wants to be away from this to the

point where his family, after this happened, was like, moved to Iowa.

It was, it was a tough cross examination.

For the cross examination, I really hammered him getting his family, the young family downstairs.

And I didn't, I didn't confront him and be like, well, you couldn't have done this.

You couldn't have done this.

I just made sure that the jury knew.

He said he saw something at the beginning and heard the shots.

And then he took the kids downstairs and came back and heard more shots and saw something.

And the timing, how you got the timing, how quickly all that had to have happened.

The angle.

All those leaves on the trees.

The foliage, the foliage.

Yes.

But you just, you just walked him through.

You had to go through this room and then this room and then this room and then down the

stairs and then make sure everybody was fine.

Then you had to go back up the stairs and go walk back and then back, you know, like just

to kind of like really draw out his route, the actions he took to show.

Cause he's not going to agree that it took too long or he didn't see anything.

He just.

That's exactly what we did.

And we use the pictures that we had taken during an investigation.

This is where you're standing.

This is where you looked out.

This is where, um, the front room that you were in.

This is the family room that you were in.

This is the dining room you had to walk through.

And we really built him up.

We were like, this kid had the, the wherewithal to get little kids away from the shooting.

So we really built him up in the cross examination.

Um, but it was really tough to do.

Did he identify your client while testifying?

Did you say that was him who I saw?

He, he did not identify him.

He didn't point to Shaggy and be like, this is the guy who did it.

They later played it.

They did that.

Is that Shaggy?

Yes.

That's who I know Shaggy is.

And then they played his identification later.

What happens next in trial?

They called the officers who did the photo arrays.

And that's where a second time that these identifications were made.

Let me tell this because you look so good in it.

So during one of the detectives who was doing the photo array, um, she's up there and she's

like, I was an independent administrator.

I knew nothing about this case.

These detectives just asked me to do it because I work in the same unit as them.

Um, eyewitness identification is the leading contributor to wrongful convictions.

In order to improve its accuracy, best practices suggest that the officer conducting a photo array

or six pack photographic lineup with an eyewitness should not have any prior knowledge of the case

or be involved in the investigation to prevent the officer from improperly influencing the eyewitness's decision.

Meaning the officer should be an independent or blind administrator of the photo array.

So the, the state puts that on and I was, I was cross-examining this one.

And radiance is like, Caden, you know, those hand, handwritten detective notes.

We just got, she was at the hospital.

So that detective had done a handwritten police report and never typed it up.

And so it never made it into what we had gotten and had been studying for the better part of a year.

So radiance caught that this woman in the stack of handwritten stuff that we got the night before had been at the hospital,

which totally played into our theory that it was this rumors, right?

That it was shaggy.

We were like, so I got up there and I said, wait a minute, you said you're an independent administrator.

So that means you didn't talk to any witnesses.

You didn't talk to any family.

You didn't talk to anybody associated with this.

You didn't go to the scene.

She's like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

I said, well, you went to the hospital, right?

And you were there when he was brought in and you spoke with the family at the hospital

and you spoke with the witnesses at the hospital because radiance found that in the stack of discovery.

We had gone the day before and that did look on the detective's face.

I almost wonder, I mean, at this point, it was close to two years, if she had forgotten because she looked so surprised up there in front of the jury, which made us look really good.

No, no, she didn't forget because she did a six pack in this case a while ago.

Also, she knew she was supposed to pretend like she was a blind administrator.

Yeah.

And then Caden confronted her.

She was like, well, you know, the general orders, right?

And like, she confronted her with the definition of an independent administrator and what the, you know, CPD general and special orders were.

And that lady was like, if looks could kill, she was so mad at Kaden.

But I mean, she, she literally had been in the waiting room talking to the family of, of Caesar, of, you know, and that entire family had been talking to people on the block who had been saying that it was shaggy.

So.

That's great.

I mean, it always feels good when you can hammer a cop in trial.

Just get, just get it out of your system.

Right.

You know, like the best to be.

Katie did it.

Well, she was on it.

She was on it.

Good teamwork there.

And then after that, after they, I think they might've called a doctor or maybe they just stuck with the EMT, but they did not call the, the lead detective.

And so the thing that was like, Kate, well, they're calling like the EMT and the evidence tech and like I'm crossing them doing, you know, very light crosses.

And Kaden's like, you know, I'm prepping for this lead detective.

I'm prepping for this lead detective.

And then they're like, judge.

And Kaden was like, wait, what?

So I just feel like there's so many holes in this investigation that I am so fired up to cross-examine this detective, including the alternative suspect.

So I am ready to go.

The jury was taken out.

The state hadn't rested yet.

And the, they said something like, in my head, I was like, okay, they got two witnesses left.

So they had some small witness at the end.

And the state goes, okay, your honor, we have one more witness.

It should take about five minutes.

And I'm like, what, I think I actually turned to him in front of the judge and said, what do you mean one witness?

Like I was so like, five minutes.

Who are you calling?

And then he told me, I said, so you're not calling the detective.

And during this lunch break, it was one of the like most stressful parts, points of my legal career so far, because I couldn't decide whether or not to call the detective myself.

And it was very stressful to me and radiance and I were doing pros and cons.

And, you know, she was on board for whatever my decision was, but it was total.

It was very stressful.

Um, was he, was he there or was he, he was there.

They just didn't know if they wanted to call him.

Right.

Right.

You know, what happened was the detective saw you cross-examine that so-called blind administrator.

And he was like, I don't want no part of that.

I'm out.

I'm out.

I was saying, so how's, how's your client been during the trial?

You know, this is going on for a couple of days, presumably like what's, what's that been like?

So I had to do a little admonishing.

There were a couple, so he had, he had support in the gallery and the way this courtroom was, it was one of the fishbowl courtrooms, we call it.

So the court, the jury box, the council tables and the judges, uh, the bench are all like encased in glass kind of.

And then the gallery is on the other side of these glass windows and doors.

So his, uh, people were sitting in the row behind us and he initially, he kept turning around and, you know, trying to talk like to his friends.

And they were like, he might've had some family, but they were mostly like younger people.

And so I'm giving him the mom of a young child in church, tight lips, stop it.

Um, you know, turn around and I'd give, I'd given him like a legal patent.

I said, if you want to tell us something, write notes.

So he starts writing notes and like holding them up to his friends in the back, in the row behind him.

And I'm like, stop it.

Stop it now.

So I said, look, you have to, you cannot do that.

I was like, the jury sees everything that you do.

So I was like, you can write songs to yourself.

He was a rapper.

So I was like, you can write a raps.

You can do whatever it is that you want to do, but you are not going to write things and show them to the people behind us.

So he started playing tic-tac-toe with himself.

Um, he designed his mixtape CD that he was going to put out when he, um, he was released the, the street, the street life of Zach and Cody.

Um, and so other than that, like he, it was clearly, he was, it was like a, to me, I think of like a, a teenager in charge.

They're bored.

Like he was just kind of like, not really after the jury selection, it was just kind of like, all right.

Um, meanwhile, Caden's just sweating bullets.

Should I call this detective or not?

This is the biggest moment of my career so far.

Yep.

And he's playing tic-tac-toe.

Yep.

He was trying to be like sneaky, not just to like look good in front of the jury, like for Radiance and I, like he was a kid trying to get away with stuff, trying to like pass notes, not actually pass notes, but like, he would hold the legal pad really close to his chest and then put it like slide it up.

On the side that I wasn't on.

On the side that I wasn't on.

And were towards his left.

So his friends could read it behind him, but we couldn't see him do it.

And then one of us would like give him a look and he'd be like, oh, oh, like innocent me.

I didn't do anything.

Let me just set this down right here.

And the notes would be like, we got to get in the studio.

It wouldn't even be like anything.

It would just be like, I'm gonna get you on this track.

Like, if you don't stop it, stop it.

No, Dave, when I get out, Davey D and I are gonna be getting together.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

But he was not, you know, having sat next to a number of clients during, you know, trials, he was fine.

Yeah, like I would take that over a lot of the things that I've gotten, you know, before.

So he was fine.

He, he was fine.

So then, okay, so now it's time for the defense then.

And did you call the detective?

No, we decided to leave it alone.

We called the arresting officers for the alternative suspect.

Okay.

And you just had him testify that you arrested somebody else or tell them, go ahead and tell

me about that real quick.

Yeah, we blew up a picture, the arrest photo of.

Some poor guy.

Poor guy, who like, has no idea that his picture was blown up and put in front of a jury.

And we're like, it was him.

If you see this guy on the street, go the other way, you know.

Well, the thing about it was, and so the, the little brother, and this is, this is triggering

because I did this direct, the little brother, when he testified, he did give a description.

So he, you know, it was a thin, darker skinned man with dreadlocks.

So, you know, we're like thin, darker skinned man with dreadlocks right here in the area,

in the area arrested, you know, 15 minutes later or however much.

So we did.

With a weapon.

With a weapon.

Exactly.

So we, we called and we, I mean, kind of conveniently left out that he was released without charge.

You know, I mean, obviously he was released without charge and he's not sitting here, but that this could be the person.

So we did call them.

And I don't really think the state did much on cross with him, with that, with that officer.

I think they just like, he's not the one here right now.

And did the state object to this evidence?

Did you guys have to fight with the judge or the prosecutor to just let in this third party?

No, we didn't have, we didn't.

And they, you know, they actually, we found this in the discovery that they tendered, like they gave it to us.

Um, so we found, I remember we, I remember exactly, we were sitting in her office and I was like, who's this dude?

She's like, oh yeah.

Like, um, so they didn't object.

And we actually didn't have to file like a motion to introduce an alternative suspect.

Um, so it was very, it was, I mean, we got it out there enough for Kate to use on clothes.

And, and we were, we were up front with them the whole time.

Like we had shown them our exhibits.

We were like, we had them give us the digitalized copy of the arrest photo for us to blow up.

Um, but that's a good example of when they would have called the detective.

Cause then the detective could have been like, I told them to release him because he's not shaggy, but they didn't call the detective.

Um, so everybody rested.

Then those were our only.

Let's hear about the closing argument.

Then who was that?

Who did that?

It opened with radiance.

So it closed with Kate and it was, I had just gotten back from a, uh, a like lawyer bootcamp, the NCDC trial practice college.

I think that's what it's.

NCDC.

That's a fun festival, man.

I go there like every year.

And so you come back from, and it was a two weeks long training.

So you come back from that all fired up and ready to just be the best lawyer you can be.

So I started, the state did their opening close where they talk about jury instructions.

And then with a PowerPoint and they board, I mean, they tell you all the elements with a PowerPoint, you know.

Um, but it kind of lures the jury into kind of like a stupor, just sit in there.

And I took my date book, uh, just like a moleskin book.

And I took the podium and I cracked my date book on the podium as hard as I could 10 times.

And that made everybody jump in the juror box.

And it even made the like deputies in the courtroom jump up.

And, and I, and then I paused and then I did it six more times.

And I said, that's what the little brother heard.

And I said, and in that time that it took me to do that, he had to get from the front of the house.

He had to pick wrangle two little kids, get them in the basement and get back to the front of the house.

I just argued is great as this kid was to take those steps to make sure everybody else was safe.

He couldn't see what he's saying that he saw.

And that as soon as this happened, everybody was just letting loose with this rumor that it was shaggy.

And they were talking about it on the street and they were talking about it in the hospital.

And they didn't even talk to the little brother until like six days later.

And I said, over the course of those six days, he was hearing it from his family.

He was hearing it from his neighbors and he was only 13 at the time.

And he doesn't even know what the truth is anymore.

And we put up the picture of the alternative suspect.

And I just got kind of quiet and I was like, dreadlocks, tall black man, found arrested.

It was less than 10 minutes.

He was arrested in the area with a firearm.

Now, the difference was the alternative suspect had bleached the tips of his dreadlocks and shaggy hadn't.

And I said, but when you're looking out the front window of a bungalow, you're looking down.

So he wouldn't notice the bleached tips because the top of his head had dark dreadlocks.

And I said that, um, shaggies, I, the, or excuse me, Caesar's definition of shaggy wasn't worth the paper it's printed on because it was done when he was totally doped up from being shot 10 times.

And then we kind of, I kind of picked on the investigation, um, as far as where are the other witnesses who were there?

Um, where are, where's the, oh yes.

I was like, where's the detective who, who was in charge of this ship?

I said, you didn't even hear from that.

Definitely thought that was going somewhere else.

Who is in charge?

No one.

Oh my God.

The way she handled the little brother was like almost perfection because of the way, how sympathetic he was on the stand.

Like you, it was one of those things where you can't get up there and say that, you know, the little brother was intentionally lying because he, even though he was at this point 15 and a little bigger and not necessarily like a, you could still see how uncomfortable and how just like seeing his big brother being shot impacted him.

And so to say, just to say that, like he did the right thing by getting these kids downstairs and, you know, basically the neighborhood around him influenced what he, you know, his perception.

It was like perfect.

It was, I think it gave the jury a way to like, um, let, let him not be a bad guy with what he saw.

And Kate, Kate, and did you tell anyone, I love this so much. Did you tell anyone you were going to bang on the podium with your book or did you just, just do that and freak everybody out?

I did. I did. I told radio, um, not the, not the bailiff, not the judge, man, freaking out.

It was great. That morning I walk into her office and she's like, I want to practice my clothes and I'm like, okay, cool. Let me see it. So I'm sitting there and she closes her door and I'm like, okay, sure. I get it. And then she starts banging on her.

I was like, okay, NC, DC, I see you. Like she, um, and, and definitely. So when we're in the courtroom and she's actually doing it, the sheriff is sitting behind us because he's inconspicuously, you know, making sure our client doesn't. Uh, and he's just like kind of leaning back. And from my like peripheral vision, when she starts banging, he's like, you literally see him jump up, um, from the, I was just like, this is perfect. This is absolutely perfection.

I love it coming off of like this PowerPoint where the prosecutor is probably like, I don't even know what the prosecutor is saying at this point. They're just saying, Hey, he picked him in a photo, you know, and they're all eyes glazed. And then you just start banging on the podium.

All right. So then let's talk about the jury deliberations. Then, um, what happened? How long did that last for?

Yeah. Long enough for us to go start a taco meal. And then do you want to give a shout out to your taco spot down there?

Where did we go? We went to Me Tierra.

Me Tierra. Me Tierra. So we went, um, and I will say Kayton's mom came and watched and her mom was probably more nervous than Kayton was, but was so proud of, you know, uh, how Kayton did. But we all went, Kate and I and her mom went and got, um, food.

But I think our meal was interrupted by a question. We had to come back because they had a question. And I don't remember what the question was.

The jurors had a question. So, so we're at lunch. We get a phone call interrupting our lunch about a question. And my mom's just like, what? We have to leave? Like, we can't, what's going on? Oh, this is so exciting. She was just, she was like, I can't.

Was she like mid, like about to eat her taco or something, like putting her food down and stuff and wrapping her up?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And Kayton was all business. She's like, mom, we've got to go. Like, don't forget, don't forget your lunch, Kayton. Pull up.

Right. We can get them to wrap it up. Kayton's like, no mom, we got to go. And I'm just sitting there like.

That's exactly what it was like. And I even told, and my mom, she's great. I even told her, I said, look, mom, if I, if I lose this, don't, I said, don't feel like you're going to make me feel better. I said, you need to turn around and walk out of the courtroom and we can talk about it later. Because if I lose this, this kid next to me is going away for a very long time.

So I can't be dealing with my mom being sad because her, her little girl lost something at work, you know? So she, she, she's a great support and it was fun having her there. So. All right. And then I think the verdict came back pretty quickly after the question.

Okay. Tell us about the reading of the verdicts. How, how was your client at that time?

So the jurors filed back in and the, the juror, the one, he looked at her and he was like, it's a not guilty.

I was like, he was like, I can see how she looked at me. It's a not guilty. I could feel how she looked at me.

I was just like, are you kidding me? He's like, no, I'm telling you. I'm telling you. I could tell her. It's a not guilty. I could see how she looked at me. And I was just like, you know, and I'm sitting there like, whatever it is, don't have a reaction.

You know, if it, either way it goes, just, we're going to. And he's like, it's a not guilty though. I could tell how she looked. And I was just like, all right.

Like he's already standing children with this woman. He was like.

And so, yeah, they gave the, the verdict form. The judge read it in.

Read it. Not guilty. Not guilty on attempted murder.

And that's it. He gets to hug his mom right then and there. Yeah.

Not in cocoon. No.

You got to go back and be processed out.

Oh, why?

Benny, you had to ask. You had to ask.

Oh man. Well, I just want to point out because this is a happy ending podcast, but this kid was in custody for how many years?

Close to two years.

And, and the victim was saying, I don't remember any of this stuff. That doesn't sound about right. And the detective didn't even testify.

You know, did the prosecutor have any issues with this after any, any apologies or, Hey, sorry, maybe this kid. No, nothing.

No.

Did he talk to you at all?

On paper, they had a good, they had a good case on paper.

Yeah.

But now that the trial's over.

Yeah.

Now that it's not on paper anymore, feelings have to change a little bit. No?

Well, I wonder if some of that went into their decision not to put on the detective. Like they were just kind of like, what, like whatever at that point, what could the detective do for this right now? You know? So I wonder if that was a part of their decision making.

Wow.

Yeah. Cause you hit a home run in closing, but when you, it sounds like when you guys crossed the kid and when you were cross-examining the, the, the person that gives the, the six pack that you really crushed their case during the cross-examination. Like you didn't tie it all together there and explain the why until the closing, but the prosecutor had to have seen like, wow, this is kind of pulled my case apart.

I would say we're very well prepared. Um, it was nerve wracking having such a young client looking at so much time, a client who I had asked him multiple times, Hey, what would you take? You know, like you are looking at so much. And the whole time he was just saying, Nope, I want to go to trial. So, so it felt great. That not guilty felt amazing. Um, it was great.

He was able to go home. Radiance and I talked with them that night and the next day, uh, home the next day. Yeah. So he, uh,

Go ahead. What do you got here?

So like we said, some of the identification of his name came from Facebook. And so we, the next day I was like, Oh, let me see if I can, you know, I went on his Facebook page and I just saw him, you know,

Very happy to be home on Facebook live the next day with, he had his, I don't know. I don't know if it was his girlfriend, but he had a girl with him and he was just very happy to be home.

It was her number four. It was not her, but in true 19 year old young man style, he was very happy to be home on Facebook live the next day.

So did you feel during this truck? Cause an ID case is very scary, right? Because memories can be built. You know, you can construct a memory after an event happens, like something that happened with this 13 year old.

False, false, false memories. Yeah. False memory. And I mean, there's so many studies of this and it seems like in Chicago, at least the police officers don't seem to be taken, you know, seriously, any sort of institutional, you know, guidelines to reduce bad identifications.

Cause this seems like a bad identification. And so like, was that addressed? Is that something you've thought about since this case?

So I used to win these, uh, I, I, the reason I was able to do such a good cross-examination with that new evidence is I had just done a motion on this.

The Chicago police department, at least in the cases that I've gotten are doing better now at using actual independent administrators.

Um, this was not too long after they first started using independent administrators and, and for example, about this time, actually, I did a motion to, um, suppress identification and a sergeant gets up there and he's like, I will, I'm the independent administrator.

And I'm like, okay, well, I mean, you're in charge of the detectives who investigated this. You know, knew this information. Yes, yes, yes.

Well, you knew about this case. Yes. But you were the independent administrator. Yes, sir. Do you know what independent administrator means?

And he said, yes. And I said, okay, officer, what is an independent administrator? And he said, I'm the supervisor. So I'm the independent administrator.

Like that was, that was what it was. There you go.

Unless they are, they wanted more, more training because that doesn't happen.

You see this badge right here? You see this badge? That's why.

Because I'm the law in this town. Because I fucking strike the rules.

Guys, you know, great job. Thanks for coming on the show and sharing your story of, of, of your jury trial and all the work you'd stress.

You went through to, to, um, you know, help save, uh, Shaggy's future a little bit here. Um, great job. That was a really great story.

Great trial story.

Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us.

The power of a tweet, the power of a tweet.

That's right. That's right. Um, but so, you know, we're going to wrap it up here and I'm going to ask a question that I ask all our guests. Uh, we can start with, uh, Radiance. So Radiance, how long have you been a public defender for?

So I've been a public defender for eight years now. Um, it just made eight years a week ago.

Wow. Wow. Um, and, uh, and what, and why did you want to become a public defender?

Uh, so for me, it all started with the story of Emmett Till. I'm not sure how familiar you guys might be with that, but it's a big story, you know, here in Chicago.

And so, um, I learned that story as a very young girl and I remember thinking how, like, it made me think of justice. Like, what is, is this justice?

What, who's speaking for the people who are being accused of things? Like this little boy was accused of something and then they just killed him. Um, and so that kind of sparked the idea in my mind. Um, I went to college, I was an African-American studies major. And so then I was really reading about stuff.

I was just like, not, not just any little boy. It was, it was a black, right. In the South, accused of like, was it rape? Right. He was accused of rape, but they said, but it was really, they said he whistled at a white woman. It wasn't even actual rape. It was that he, he whistled at a white woman. And so a mob, her husband, her brother-in-law, um, came and took him out of his great uncle's home, uh, shot him in the head.

They beat him. They tied a cotton gin fan around his neck and, uh, basically sunk him in the Tallahatchie river. I heard that story. Um, that kind of sparked the idea of justice, um, especially justice for black people.

And being, being a little black girl from the South, from the South side of Chicago, you know, I saw people who look like me kind of being harassed by the police. Um, I became, I was an African-American studies major in college. I read a lot of cases, uh, the whole civil rights movement, Thurgood Marshall, all that. So I knew I was either going to do criminal defense or civil rights work.

I went to law school, clerked in our PD's office as a law student, second chair, a murder jury and won and was like, this is it. This is what I was called to do. Um, so I say it starts with the story of Emmett Till always, but it's kind of like, that's the start of the weaving of the story.

Right. That's great. Great. And, um, and Caden, what about you? So how long you've been a public, you guys started together, right?

So I started at Cook County together, but I had worked for a year and a half in, um, a sub, uh, Collar County.

Oh, so you, you hold that over radiance then.

Yes. She's way, she is way, way more experienced than I am. And it's true. It's true.

And, um, better at like driving on suspenders. Cause that's pretty much all I did.

Um, so I've always, I've been, I was raised to really care about the underdog and to even kind of root for the underdog.

I always wanted to be a lawyer and I, through, through school, I went on a social justice path. That's what I was interested in.

And during law school, so I worked for the legal assistance foundation here in Cook County as an investigator at the time we used to investigate abuse and neglect in nursing homes.

And then I went to, uh, law school and in law school during criminal law, I honestly left class.

Like the second week. And I said to one of my friends who would go into criminal law. Why would anybody ever do that? It's so stressful. I'd much rather be dealing with money than with people's liberty.

And then I applied for an internship at the Cabrini Green legal aid clinic. And I wanted to do family or housing. And they said, we'd love for you to work with us, but we want you to do criminal law.

And I said, okay, I'll try it. And for me, there was no turning back. And it, I had completely flipped. I was like, why would anyone deal with money when we could be fighting for something important like people's liberty?

Nice. Here we go. Well, thank you for coming on the show today.

Thank you so much.

And Benny, Benny, buddy. Thanks for, good seeing you again. I haven't seen Benny in over a year, guys. I haven't given Benny a hug in over a year. It's good to see that smile again.

Good to see you too, Dave. Um, that was a great story on the real. I mean, yeah, you really, you saved that kid. You guys are clearly really great lawyers.

It's going to be a good episode. It's going to be good. Thanks for coming on the show, guys.

Thanks for having us.

Bye.

Hope you all enjoyed the episode this week. Special thanks to Daniel Mark for the music and Mike Grimm for the remix. Your next A&G episode will air next month on the second Sunday. Peace.