I'll Be A Monkey's Uncle – When the Wrong Person Gets Put on Trial

Here at Another Not Guilty, we appreciate your support. Don't forget to subscribe or follow us and please visit our website at anothernotguiltypod.com. Without further ado, here's this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

I am here to share a pretty insane double victim sex assault case. I want the jury to understand why the oldest sister didn't come forward because her abuse went on for almost 10 years.

The mom accusing the father of having sex with the kids again. And all of that backstory, it all comes from grooming. And so I wanted to kind of bolster her version of the events through the common law as a expert.

It's special, you know, to see citizens that don't know your client and had to sit there and listen to the worst thing that could ever be said about somebody and to come out of that and want to shake his hand.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty, I'm David Moore, here along with my fellow public defenders presenting to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system.

Objection! That assumes there's justice in the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system.

These stories are about the not-guilties public defenders get on a daily basis.

In an unjust criminal system.

With a deck stacked against us.

Alright, welcome back everybody to Another Not Guilty. It's your buddy Dave here, flying solo in the hosting department.

Today we've got a special guest coming all the way from the East Coast, a public defender out there fighting in the trenches on a daily basis.

We bring to you Josh. What's up, Josh?

How you guys doing?

We're good, we're good. Thanks for being on the show today.

Well, thank you for having me.

So then, what case are you here to share with us today?

I am here to share a pretty insane double victim sex assault case that I took to a jury trial a couple weeks ago, actually.

Got a big not-guilty on that one.

And you know, I mean double victim sex assault, was it a specific sex crime charge?

It was, with one, it was two sisters.

They are the nieces of my client.

They were making allegations that on two occasions for each of them, so four incidents total, that he improperly touched them.

One of them accused him of more serious touching than the other, but both claims paralleled each other in nature and scope, things like that.

And the two sisters, how old were they?

At the time of the allegations, one was 15, the other one was 12.

Okay.

And then, what's the relation to your client?

How do they know your client?

Their mother is my client's sister, his younger sister.

And so, this is a delayed report case.

So, the allegations come over two years after the alleged incidents.

So, at the time of the allegations, their family, you know, the complaining witness's family, they move from their home state and they're kind of transient.

It's the whole family.

So, mom, dad, oldest sister, the two complaining witnesses and their younger siblings, up and leave their homestead and are traveling around for a few months and then land in my client's home for about four months before they get settled in their own home in our community.

And is it during those four months that they live with their client is when this allegedly happened?

Yes.

How do these allegations surface?

They surface two years later, and they surface immediately after, in the days after, the oldest sister, who, at the time of the report, she had left and gone back to her original home and filed accusations that led to 150 counts of rape and incest against the father.

So, dad is arrested here in awaiting extradition for another state, and it's in that point that the two younger sisters come forward and make allegations against my client.

These two sisters have an older sister?

Yeah, an older half-sister.

It's the father's daughter, but they don't share a mother.

Okay.

So, that father's daughter says that she was a victim of incest or rape by her own father.

Yes.

And then the authorities interviewed the younger sisters, right?

Yes.

And then the younger sisters say, "Oh, we weren't touched by our dad, but our uncle touched us."

Exactly.

And at the time, the younger of those two girls also says, "Well, dad did do this to me."

She later recants, but she does initially say that she was a victim of her father as well.

And did they describe the touching by your client?

Yeah.

So, the older sister, she describes two instances where she...

This is a two-story home.

And I guess kind of like giving a background about how many people are in this home is really important, because my client is a blue-collar driver.

So, he basically, he works for the railroads and he transports, you know, engineers and railroad line workers from one location to another location so they can work on either the trains or on the tracks for a company locally.

So, he works overnights for that.

His wife at that point is on disability.

You know, she was working, but she suffered an injury.

So, she's at home.

Grandmother, his mother, and his sister's mother live with them.

And then their two youngest sons.

So, the immediate household is five people.

Then, when his sister and her family come, they come with, you know, the two parents, the three daughters, actually four daughters, because there's a youngest daughter, and then another younger son.

So, they come and the household, you know, swells to, I believe, 12 people.

And so, it's a two-story home, three bedrooms.

There's three bedrooms on the second floor, a bathroom on the second floor.

And all these details matter because they kind of play a role.

So, three bedrooms on the second floor.

Downstairs is a converted bedroom, converted sunroom into a bedroom.

And that's where grandma stays in a half bathroom.

So, when the extended family moves in, they have, you know, we now have 12 people and only, you know, four beds, essentially, to have them sleep in.

So, there's a little bit of rearranging of who goes where in the house.

But, ultimately, my, you know, my client and his wife keep their bedroom.

Their two boys bunk up.

The sisters, the two middle sisters bunk up in another bedroom.

And then the oldest sister, the youngest sister, and the brother and the two parents stay downstairs in the living room.

So, it's a really packed house.

The two middle sisters are the ones that are claiming your client touched them, right?

Yes.

Okay.

The, as soon as they move in, the two girls get enrolled in school.

Because of their age differences, they end up at different schools.

One's in high school, one's in middle school.

And the allegation with the oldest sister is that, on two occasions, she stays home from school.

It's still very vague as far as the dates.

She gives kind of a window of about three weeks, initially, of when this would have happened.

And she claims that, on one occasion, it is my client and my client's wife in the room, sitting, you know, on each side of the bed.

And she's sitting in between them.

They're watching something on TV.

My client's wife gets up, goes to the bathroom, which is right across the hallway.

And it's at that point in time that my client reaches over and begins to fondle, you know, her crotch over the clothes.

That's the length of the allegation.

She alleges that, you know, my client's wife, you know, gets done with the bathroom, comes back in.

At that point, it stops.

So, nobody sees anything, but that's what she's alleging happened.

Then there's a second occasion where she, again, is staying home from school, not feeling well.

She's in my client's bedroom alone because her father told her to go up there because there's a window unit and for her to cool off.

And my client comes into the room while she's laying down and then, again, does, you know, a very similar act, touching, you know, over the clothes with her.

So, the 12-year-old, her version is a little bit more serious.

She initially says the first instance happens downstairs.

So, in the living room, she's on the sofa.

My client is sitting next to her and grandmother is in a chair across from them.

And they're all facing the television.

And, you know, her version is that he reaches over and fondles her breasts over the shirt and then reaches down and then through her leggings and penetrates her digitally.

And she doesn't say anything.

She just gets up and goes upstairs.

Then there's another incident that she describes, which is a little bit different.

It actually mirrors her older sister's complaint that she's upstairs.

And my client, again, comes up and digitally penetrates her.

She makes some claims to the fact that he's telling her, don't tell anybody.

This is our secret sort of stuff.

So, that is the second instance.

So, that is the two.

Those are the effect of the two claims that are initially made about my client.

I mean, these are very serious charges.

Like, what's your client looking at?

He, so he had no prior record.

The, the assaults on the oldest, the oldest girls would have been misdemeanors with, you know, county length incarceration time.

Right.

And on the, on the younger one, those were felony two.

The more serious because of the digital penetration.

Exactly.

So, he was facing, he was facing a longer sentence on that.

Um, but with both of them, he was looking at, at sex offender registration.

So, you know, this is a guy with no record.

He's in his forties.

He's never had any kind of issues.

He's a, a wrestling coach.

Um, good guy in the community.

Um, and these allegations kind of come out of the blue.

He's looking at if convicted actual incarceration time, um, for this.

So, you know, depending on how it was, how he would have been sentenced.

Um, he could have, he could have gone away for a few years.

Yeah.

Hey, this is David.

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Thanks.

And, uh, what were your initial impressions when you first read the case?

So my client comes in for our initial appointment and brings his wife.

And we sit down and I'm, and I'm looking at it going, you know, these are, these are pretty serious allegations.

And his wife, who frankly is one of the most supportive and amazing, uh, spouses I've ever encountered in, in this line of work slides me a stack of handwritten notes.

And the first four pages double-sided are names, phone numbers, addresses, and relations of people in the community that will come and speak on my client's behalf.

Um, and then she also was able to give me kind of the, the information about the oldest sister and the allegations about the father.

And, you know, that's what helped to develop the, the information and the motivation in this case, um, for our defensive, uh, you know, initially.

But the most important person in that witness list was the oldest sister.

The one that had the, was molested by her father.

She was the most important because she was living in the house at that time of the allegation.

And my initial conversation with her over the phone was there was never an opportunity because of the kind of predator my father is.

Um, he would never let any of the girls out of his sight, especially me, but he definitely wouldn't allow my client to be alone with any of the girls.

And she's like, I know this because, you know, my dad was hitting me and your client steps in, breaks up this assault, pushes my dad out of the room, closes the door.

And like everybody kind of cool.

And like everybody kind of cools off.

That was the first time in, as far as she knows, anybody was alone with my client from her family in the house.

Then there's a second instance where my client who's suspecting that there is something going on again, meets with her alone in a room and asks her directly about her father and says, is something going on here?

And she lies to him. She doesn't know she hasn't told anybody about the the abuse at the hands of her father.

Um, but she, you know, she's willing to come forward now and say, you know, I was alone with your client and he suspected this, but, um, I didn't tell him that at the time.

Is it your client's fault? The reason why the father got arrested for molesting his daughter for a long time?

I didn't know what the actual motivation to lie into, to pivot away from dad and onto my client was.

So one of the things that we decided to do is we, because he was incarcerated here for about a month, we subpoenaed all of his jail calls.

So we were able to get all the calls from the jail that he was making to his wife, my client's sister, and listen to them.

And it was about 30 something hours and we listened to every single one of those calls.

And the first batch of those calls is what's really important because he starts at that point while he's incarcerated originally waiting extradition.

His young, you know, the, the younger of the two victims in my case had already made an allegation that her father had abused her too.

And he's on the phone telling his wife, I need to see her. We can't talk about this over the phone.

You understand you need to bring her down. And she does.

And we had other information about the dad that like that the oldest daughter wasn't his only victim.

There's actually a victim that predated her.

That was also a relative that he impregnated and she ended up having a child when she was 14.

So there were two victims in that other state case that came forward against him.

So there is a whole host of things going on in the back here that are, that are really kind of triangulating on this guy as a real predator and a real predator of teenage girls, right in this, you know, and right in the age group where these two girls are.

What other steps of investigation did you guys do then?

The DA day had re-interviewed the witnesses and the younger of the two sisters in that new interview about eight months after her original statement.

Well, actually, let me back up.

Her original claim is that my father molested me and my uncle molested me.

Daughter number three.

Daughter number three.

Daughter number three.

That's her original claim.

After she meets with her father, after, you know, we know when she meets with her father on, you know, based on the phone calls, she writes a letter that she gives to the police that says, I lied about the things I said about my father.

My oldest sister made me say these things because she wants to take me away from the home.

I'm sorry that I lied.

Something to that effect.

Did you guys try to go to the school and confirm whether or not daughter number two missed school?

We did not do that, but we did.

We didn't do that because that was that was strategic because I knew the police had never done that.

And that was going to be one of the themes that I was going to argue and that I did end up ultimately arguing to the jury was like, look, you know, there are like what we did do was we pulled my clients work history from two years ago.

We were able to get all of that so we could show every single day in, you know, in a three month window where he was working the hours that he was working.

So it's like, OK, if they're saying it's in this two week window, here are the possible days if the Commonwealth had ever bothered to go and get, you know, these school records, which we know that they keep attendance records for kids.

We could overlap these things and look at them.

And I actually asked the officer that he's like, well, I'm not sure that could happen.

I could do that.

I was like, are you kidding me?

You know, again, I just looked at the jury and shook my head.

I was like, OK, like so you're saying that you couldn't look at two calendars in the set of dates and say, oh, well, there's a window here where these two people could be in the house at the same time.

It's like, I don't know. All right, that's fine.

Anything else to your guys is a defense prep.

Yeah, I mean, I sat down with the whole family and all of our witnesses in this in this home on two different occasions just to just to prep everybody, because I was calling grandmother.

I was calling the wife. I was calling the daughter number one.

I also called another girl who was about she's she was about 17 when I called her, but who was a family friend who was friends with the two complaining witnesses here.

OK, she got introduced to them when they moved in with my client, but she is a family friend of my clients.

So she's similarly aged. And, you know, she had said they worked at a at an amusement park together and she had said that one of the two girls had recanted to her straight up.

And I was like, OK, do you remember when this is? Yeah, it was in the summer.

It was the late summer of 2017. We were, you know, over we were over by this concession at the park on this date.

Like, all right, well, it seems, you know, it seems credible. It's at least something we can use.

The only other thing that I get and I get it late is a video from the oldest sister.

And it was recorded about it was recorded eight months before the allegations are made.

And it's before she comes forward against her father.

And the video is is filmed in the living room of her family's home at that point.

And it is a family meeting where it is clear as day that mom is is confronting the father.

And she says without without any. It's absolutely clear what she says.

She says, I'm tired of hearing about you having sex with our daughters.

And it is daughter one, daughter two, daughter three, all in the room with mom and dad.

Daughter one's fiance is in the room. You know, there are a bunch of witnesses to this conversation that are that's happening.

And she said, and, you know, mom goes, you know, we dealt with this in May, meaning May of the year before.

She says, you're not allowed to be alone with them. We told you this.

And and it was it was like the glimpse of like of into his psyche, because he flips this conversation so quickly, this serious allegation gets flipped.

And within within, you know, 90 seconds of like he's screaming, he's cursing, he's new, he's motherfucking everybody in the room within 90 seconds of that.

He has them all laughing and they move on to something else. It was the most bizarre thing I've ever seen and heard in my life.

It's like it is. He like just has this this power over that, that it like like immediately after this conversation, he just starts as soon as he starts putting people on the spot and they start retreating, they've given up.

You know, he has he has control again. So once he cracks a joke, everyone's like, OK, he's not mad anymore.

It's kind of like you hear the you hear the release of tension. Right.

And everyone's like, OK, cool. Like that's not going to go ballistic anymore.

It was verification that he had been abusing the girls and not just that he had been abusing them, but that the mother had known about the abuse for at that point that I'm watching it.

You know, over a year before the allegations come forward against my client and nothing was ever done.

And then and who recorded this video?

The oldest sister, she comes back, she goes away, has a baby, comes back and she comes back because she believes that the that daughter number three is being abused and she records this because she believes that she's going to get you know, that there's going to be some sort of statement made about this.

And she and she sure as hell is right. You know, she gets it.

And it's because of what is happening to her, her younger sister, then that when she leaves and goes back home, she immediately reports.

And that's how the ball gets rolling against her father is the verification that the abuse is happening now to another victim.

You know, her younger sister. Right.

Right. That's how that's that's what gives her kind of the strength to move forward and to come forward and say this has been happening to me.

That's that's very credible, powerful testimony right there.

Yeah. Yeah. And and it and it leads to a serious, you know, serious investigation.

Serious investigation. I mean, so serious that the D.A. in this other state sends me the information that they have.

That was part of my trial prep was getting was calling the D.A. out there and saying, hey, like this is what I'm dealing with.

And she's like, no, I'll give you what I have. And she sends me related materials regarding regarding the father.

So the D.A. in another county helped out in your defense, another state, another state.

That's pretty cool. So then what's like what's the state of the of your defense looking like?

You know, clearly, I believe that this didn't happen before we go to trial, before we do pretrial motions.

You know, I've got the statements that my client made to the police, which were, you know, he denies it and he gives them.

He tells them, talk to these people. You know, so his tape isn't coming in.

Wait, did you say the the tape is not coming in?

My client's interrogation isn't coming in.

OK, we haven't talked about your client was interrogated then.

It's about a 40 minute tape, you know, and, you know, he doesn't even know what the allegations are when he sits down.

And they just kind of start in on him. You know, they're using the read method.

They're trying they're trying, you know, all of their all their tricks.

And he's going and he's not even asking questions.

He's going, I don't this whatever it was that someone saying about me didn't happen.

It's the best. It's the best interrogation of a client I've ever seen because he just says, no, this didn't happen.

He doesn't give them any kind of details because he doesn't have any details.

And what and at one point the, you know, the lead detectives like you don't you've never asked which, you know, which one of your needs is is accusing you.

He goes, it doesn't matter.

It's like I didn't happen.

He's like, I don't know who would make this allegation, but whatever it is, it didn't happen.

And I don't know anything about it.

And it was powerful.

It was powerful to see.

But I knew that it was, you know, I was going to be the only person that ever saw it.

The jury wasn't going to be able to see that.

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So then let's talk about the trial.

Yeah, you have a judge you're in front of.

Do you like this judge?

Um, it's a judge who I've tried a jury in front of.

And I had, you know, I had really good results then.

And I do like this judge.

He's, you know, he's fair.

But he had, you know, he had just had a little bit of, you know, media attention around him on another, you know, sex assault case,

where he, um, granted a motion for judgment of acquittal post verdict.

And it was kind of a stir because, you know, the verdict, the verdict had come down from the jury guilty and he reversed it.

And it was a very, you know, I wasn't at that trial, but it, but he, but I, I was sensitive to that.

Um, because there was a lot of conversation about whether or not to go jury or non jury.

And as soon as that happened, I said, I don't think he wants to be put in a position on a similar case immediately after having, having done this.

Yeah.

So I was like, I think we're better off just going jury at this point.

My client agreed.

So then tell us about jury selection then.

So jury selection here is really boring.

Um, is it, you're saying it's not as exciting as we make it sound in LA.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's, it's definitely, it's there's, there's not a lot of interaction.

The, the jurors fill out, um, a questionnaire.

We, you know, we have proposed questions that we can add to it.

Um, and there was, there was some of that in, in our quad year, the commonwealth asked for a couple of questions.

Uh, one being the testimony, the testimony of a victim alone without any corroborating or physical evidence, um, is enough if believed by you to find the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

That was their proposed instruction.

Um, yeah, I don't like that instruction.

Yeah.

I don't like that question at all.

The way they make it sound is like, as if like, if one person testifies to this, that's enough to find them guilty.

Are you okay with that?

And then people are like, well, no, I want to, I want to hear more.

Well, that's all you hear.

Can you find them guilty?

I don't know.

Oh, then nevermind.

You're, you're kicked.

Cause you can't find them guilty.

Like I want you to, that's kind of like how they, they make it sound.

Exactly.

And so we've lost, we've been fighting this issue, um, here locally for a while, but I was able to, the judge actually almost denied their request.

To have that question included.

Cause he said, you know, he said like one, there's already a jury instruction to this effect to, you know, you're basically taking the, um, the responsibility out of my hands to instruct them.

You're instructing them on the front end about this.

And it's my job to instruct them about the law, not yours.

But ultimately he came to, um, you know, he kind of, he kind of settled on something that included more beyond the reasonable doubt language that I asked for.

Basically like if the testimony of the victim alone believed by you beyond a reasonable doubt, um, you know, and there was, I can't remember exactly how it was expressed, but he gave us a bolstered version of it, which still isn't great, but it's better.

Um, and I was able to work with it during the questions.

Did you share what you had with the prosecutor?

Did you show them the video?

Did you show them any documents or statements or anything like that?

Are you saving that all for trial?

I was saving it.

Um, but I was trying to kind of, I was trying to gauge their interest, right?

Like, like if I could tell you that, that we can sit down and I can give you really strong, bona fide evidence about this behavior.

You know, you have, you have one of your victims who has recanted the allegations against her dad.

And then, and I don't think we actually said this earlier, right before trial, she comes out and says, no, actually, my dad did do this to me.

I've lied twice going into trial, um, which is wild.

Right.

And I'm going, she's saying her father did this to her.

Have you ever investigated it?

Um, and that frankly just fell on deaf ears.

They were like, no, we're not.

Well, how dare you even attempt to shift, shift our focus from anything else other than your clearly guilty client who molested these poor young women.

You know, that was basically the response I got.

And I was like, all right, you know, then, then we're just going to have to, we're going to have to see how this goes.

I miss that.

She's so a week before trial, she said her dad did it.

She said, she said that her, that she had lied, not just a week.

It was a little bit before trial, but she had, she had, she came back around and said, actually, my father did molest me.

And she lied when I wrote that letter.

And I wrote that letter because my mom asked me to is essentially what came out.

So I normally don't, I normally kind of pretend to be interested when I asked this question, but I really am sincerely interested.

What was the opening statements like then?

Cause I'm just kind of, I know what the prosecutor is going to say, but I want to hear how you kind of rebutted that in your opening statement.

Cause I feel like that's what you had to do, right?

Get out in front of it.

So my opening was really like, we believe that these two girls are victims, but we are here for the wrong person, right?

You are going to hear testimony from all of these other people, their aunt, you know, their grandmother, their oldest sister.

And they're going to tell you that the things that they're alleging that happened did not happen to them.

And the one thing that we can't get around is the fact that their father is really a monster.

We have a convicted child molester in this home and it's not my client.

All right.

So let's talk about the, the, the state's evidence.

Then who do they bring in to testify first daughter number two?

No, they actually, they call, and I did not get any kind of notice of this, but, and this is another thing we're dealing with.

They call a, a child sex assault expert to testify to why, you know, some kids report right away, some kids delay report.

And essentially that how a child behaves after they've been sexually assaulted can, can appear in any way.

So basically this person, this expert gets up there and says a kid can respond in any number of ways and all of it is normal.

So there's no real opinion.

It's just basically telling the jury that, you know, if a kid delays the report or acts out in a certain way, you can use that as a sign that they were abused.

But you can also use the absence of those things as signs that they were abused.

How did you, how did you get any notice of this witness?

They just brought them up.

Like the first time you heard about this witness is when they call them to the stand.

Well, I object.

I did.

I did.

I did object.

Um, but I'm familiar with this witness because they've been doing this in these kinds of cases over the last year and a half.

The bench has been letting them do it.

They're saying like, look, they're not speaking on the specifics of this case or speaking about hypotheticals.

You know, we don't need to give notice.

They believe that that's a rule.

I believe that that's absolutely improper.

Um, but it is part of the practice here that we're, that we've been dealing with.

And so I, you know, I wasn't shocked that they did this, but I was a little bit, I was annoyed by it.

Um, but I was able to use it to my advantage.

I'm listening to this expert testify and I'm going, I can ask her all of the questions that I want about how parents of children, you know, what their roles and grooming and things like that, like how that impacts behavior.

And I'm sitting there going, I'm going to do this.

So I get up there and I just start, you know, first I, I hammer her on a couple of the stats that she's a legend.

One of her statistics was, well, in one study, you know, 80% of adults have, you know, indicated that they've been the victim of a sexual assault.

I'm like, okay, you said this, this stat in a vacuum that one study says this 80% number.

What was the, you know, what was the sample?

Who, who, how many people answered the study?

1,800 people were asked and only a thousand people responded.

So I'm going, you know, in a, in a country of over 300 million people, that's a fairly small sample size.

And you know, some of the jurors are actually laughing when they, when they hear this.

I'm like, okay, nice.

Right off the bat with a, on a sex case, you have the jurors laughing.

That's pretty good.

That's, that's, that's hard to do.

It is.

It is hard to do.

Cause I had heard her.

I had heard her in other cases, um, ask that or, or give that, that statistic.

And I've never had any, no one's ever pushed her on it.

And I was like, it didn't matter what the answer was.

Right.

Um, but it seemed like a very high number and it was very high.

It's almost like you had your own personal vendetta.

That's it.

I'm tired of hearing this.

Yeah.

That's it.

What, how many fucking people are we talking about here?

I just, I just want to know just for my own clarification.

I, yeah, it's like, I have to know.

I have to know how many people answered this damn thing.

And it's like, hopefully she's going to be like, well, I can never fucking use that thing

ever again.

That stat ever again, because you know, like as soon as the follow comes in, it's a thousand

people have answered this survey.

Like, well, that's not a, that's not statistically significant, at least not to me.

I'm not a statistician, but, um, it doesn't seem, it doesn't seem very significant.

The experts spoke about, um, the fact that, you know, if the child says, daddy did X to

me and mom says, I don't believe it.

The child is more likely statistically to recant.

I was like, okay, well that's really good because we have one of these girls who's made

the accusation against dad and mom is supporting dad and she, and that child ends up recanting.

And I was like, okay, I'm like, I kind of put that in my pocket because that's going to be

something that, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to be able to use in closing eventually,

um, about one of the two girls.

And, and then I asked, I asked the expert about grooming.

I'm like, can you explain what grooming is to the jury?

And she goes into it and she, you know, she says that there's a whole, there's a whole host

of ways about how an adult will groom a child for, um, you know, for a sexual relationship.

And it will start off, you know, small with, you know, minor kind of touching and to see

how the predator or perpetrator will, um, you know, what, what they can get away with and

how it will escalate over time and how the child responds.

Um, and to, you know, basically to get the child comfortable with this kind of behavior,

because if, you know, a little bit of, you know, my hand, you know, the, if the perpetrator's

hand, you know, touches the child's bottom and the child doesn't respond negatively once,

well then, you know, maybe the next time they do that and they do something else.

And then it kind of like snowballs from there and building the rapport.

Why is the grooming, uh, important to your case?

It's important because I want the jury to understand why the oldest sister didn't come

forward because her abuse went on for almost 10 years.

And I wanted her, I wanted to build up her credibility through the Commonwealth's expert

about, cause she's going to testify exactly to what she's describing about how the father

does this and how this is the behavior that she was seeing in the dad.

And that's why she came home.

And that's why, that's why this conversation about, you know, the dad, you know, the mom

accusing the father of having sex with the kids again, and all of that backstory, it all

comes from grooming.

And so I wanted to kind of bolster her version of the events that were going to come out in

my case through the Commonwealth's expert.

I was able to, and I was really able to get the, you know, kind of the platform to do

that, you know, because I knew that the, that the DA was going to be able to, if he chose

to say like, well, my client was trying, was in the beginning stages of attempting to groom

these kids.

Um, you guys are both sort of setting up your theories with this, uh, expert then.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then who's the next, who's the next witness for the prosecution then?

The, they call the older sister first, the daughter, number two, daughter, number two.

So the oldest of planning victims.

Yeah.

So she's 17 or 18 at this point, very pretty.

You know, I had been getting all of these reports from the family about, you know, how

she had testified prior.

And it was, she was laughing.

She wasn't credible, all of this.

And I'm going, okay, well, this is the first time I'm going to see her actually testify.

And she gets up there and she goes into it and it, she testifies, I believe pretty credibly

during her testimony.

She started, she like stopped all of a sudden.

And it was, I can't remember the precise question, but it was definitely related to the

first in the first allegation of, of contact.

And I can see her.

She's just sitting there and she's looking straight ahead.

She's looking past the DA and she's taking these deep breaths and she's not saying she hasn't

answered the question.

She's taking these deep breaths, these deep breaths, these deep breaths.

I'm going, is she doing the method to make herself cry?

And I'm going, and I look back and the victim advocates are sitting behind the DA, looking

right at her and nodding their heads.

Like, it's okay.

You know, come on.

And we're sitting there and we're going, wait, what's going on?

And the judge says, you need to get off the stand.

I need the attorneys up here.

And the judge tells the DA right then and there, like, you need to tell your victim advocates.

They can be in the room, but they can't be coaching her because counsel can't see it.

Like I, you know, I could peek over my shoulder, but I want to watch what she's doing.

Right.

She's going, they're like, there's, there can't be any, any kind of, you know, head nods or

gestures or anything like that.

And as we're up there and she's off the, she's off the stand.

He, the judge goes, no, no, we have to stop right now because now she's talking to them.

She's on the stand.

She can't be talking to them.

So like we had this kind of whole fiasco where like the DA has to like get the victim advocates

out of the room.

You know, the girl breaks down.

Like, well, as soon as like we approach the bar, she falls apart, hyperventilating.

Like, it's just awful.

And the jury's just in shock because we don't know what's going on.

Like she had, everyone had forgotten what the question was at this point.

And now she's just kind of having this meltdown.

And so we were done for the day at that point.

The judge was like, we're coming back tomorrow.

First thing, put her back on the stand.

Like, you got to really talk to these people.

He's like, but this is like, this is, we're not doing this throughout this trial.

We're not having these victim advocates sit there, you know, and, and, and behave that

way in a courtroom because I'm the only person that can really see what they're doing.

I was like, okay, well that at least the judge is looking out for me and my client.

You know, I appreciate it.

Um, and I had seen it, but I hadn't really realized what was going on in the moment.

Cause I was like, why is she hyperventilating on the stand?

So we come back the next morning and, um, they put her back on the stand.

And so she, she kind of pulls it together and gives her testimony about the second incident.

She's going into her specifics about laying on the bed and not feeling well.

Um, and the fact that her father had directed her up to the second floor, because that's

where an air conditioning was.

And that's why she was in my client's bedroom and she was laying there feeling, you know,

to cool off.

It was, was specifically what she said.

And I'm going, okay.

You know, like I know my client's home.

I've been, I've been in not the home where this happened, but I've been in their new home.

And I'm going, these people keep their house freezing.

And I turned to my client.

I'm like, you had ACs downstairs, right?

He's like, yeah, like the house was cold.

It was like, it was freezing downstairs.

It was always cold downstairs.

She would never have to go upstairs to cool off because we, you know, my, you know, my wife

keeps it at, she runs this window AC at 60 degrees and it just runs all day, all the time.

I'm like, okay, well that's a good fact.

So she goes through, talks about the, you know, the touching over the clothes.

Um, and, and so I get my opportunity to cross her.

And so I start to ask her about that video that had been recorded about eight months prior

to the allegation.

I was like, well, you know, I mean, you're, you know, I'm like, there was a family meeting

in January of 2018 where, you know, your father, your mother accused your father of having sex

with, with your younger sister, daughter number three.

She goes, that never happened.

Perfect.

That never happened.

Like, no, I'm like, and you're saying that, you know, there hadn't been conversations about

your dad having done this the May prior in 2017.

She goes, absolutely not.

No, like you didn't tell anybody about what your, what you're saying your uncle did to

you at that time.

She goes, no, I told my oldest sister and she told me to tell my father.

And I went, your oldest sister, you told your oldest sister at the time that this happened

and she told you to tell your father.

Yes.

So I get it.

So she denies that, that there's ever been any family meetings about her dad.

She denies that her dad's ever, you know, um, done this.

She denies that she ever spoke to her father.

She denies that she was directed to make these allegations against her uncle by her father

or by her mother.

Um, so I get all those denials out on the record and, you know, and she was the toughest

witness for me because I really didn't know how she was going to respond, but she gave

me some good stuff by, you know, by just either misremembering or just flat out denying things

that I knew I knew weren't true.

Um, or I knew were true.

Um, so it's not like you really, you didn't really like, it sounds like you didn't really

stick it to her, but you just set it up for later.

You just kind of like, you're setting things up for later.

Yeah.

Because I didn't want to ask her too many questions because I didn't know what she was

going to say.

So then they call daughter number three.

And so she's about, she's what 14, 15 at the time that she's testifying now.

And again, she was pretty credible with regards to her direct.

She had a bunch of inconsistent inconsistencies over the versions of events, but she kind of

like settled on the most, the most reasonable version of it, which was, you know, primarily

about the sofa, right?

That I'm on the sofa.

My uncle sits down next to me, grandma sitting across from me.

And he reaches over and he fondles my breasts and then he reaches down my pants.

Right.

This is the, she's the one that is talking about the digital penetration.

And, you know, and so she goes through her direct.

It's frankly unremarkable.

She doesn't, there's no hysterics like her older sister.

You know, she's not crying or breaking down on the stand, but she seems, you know, she

seems at least put together and not, she's not cracking.

She doesn't seem nervous.

She doesn't seem nervous.

Um, so with her, I had more information to work with.

So I, I start with, with the incident on the couch and I said, okay, so you're saying that

you're sitting in the middle of the sofa and your uncle comes and sits down next to you.

Grandmother is sitting across from me.

And she's like, yeah.

And I, and so I was like, I start walking around the well of the courtroom.

And I was like, okay, so if this table, you know, on my left is the sofa and it is facing

across the room.

It's facing in this direction.

Where's the TV?

She's like, TV is over here to the left of me.

Okay.

And your grandmother, her chair would be about here and I'm stepping in and putting myself

in kind of a, you know, trying to make a triangle between, you know, the, the sofa, the chair

and the TV so that the jury can get an idea of where grandma's sitting.

She's like, well, no grandma sits further back.

I'm like, oh, okay.

Cause I had grandma kind of sitting parallel with them.

But in fact, grandma's chair is sitting back.

So the sofa would actually be obviously in her peripheral vision at this time.

So grandma could see if, you know, if her son is reaching over and doing stuff with her

granddaughter, uh, she would have been able to see that.

And so I was like, okay, so grandma's here, right?

You know, she's like, yeah.

I'm like, so your uncle reaches over and, uh, and grabs you.

Like, do you tell him to stop?

She goes, no.

Like, do you say, you, do you say anything?

Do you do anything?

He goes, no.

I was like, okay.

You don't, and you don't even bother to tell your grandmother.

Hey, grandmother, tell him to get off me.

No.

All right.

Right.

And you get up immediately and go upstairs.

That's what you testified to, right?

Yes.

Okay.

But you've also testified to the fact that at one, one version is that you were covered

with a blanket.

You didn't testify to that today.

Did you know you also tell you also told the police at one point that my client pulled

out his penis, but you didn't testify to that today.

Did you know your uncle isn't the only person you've made allegations about?

Is it?

She's like, well, no.

I'm like, you've made out.

Like you told the police that your father abused you.

Yes.

And you also told the police that that didn't happen.

Right?

Yes.

And you also told the police that your oldest sister forced you to make those allegations

up against your dad.

Right?

Yes.

You also ended up telling the police that in fact, that statement was a lie and that

your mother told you to make, tell that lie.

Yes.

Yes.

So I get her, I just walk her through that and she just comes with me and agrees.

Oh, good.

Every single one of those direct questions, you know, those direct questions, she's, she's

just answering yes or no in the right way.

She's not, she's not running from what she's done, but it, and it played really well with

the jury because I just walk her down that path of her inconsistent statements about her

father.

Like you went and visited your dad.

Yes.

And your dad told you that the only way for him to get out of jail is for you to say that

he didn't do this.

Right?

Yeah.

So like we went down that path.

Um, and to show that like, he was making these allegations, you know, he was, he was

working her on hit on the allegations against him.

I couldn't get her to agree with that.

Her dad told her to make up the allegations against the uncle.

Stopped there.

Um, which was fine.

But daughter number three, you know, I, I end my cross of her with the video with the

contents of the video.

Okay.

And I, and I asked her specifically, I was like, you had a family meeting, you know, in

January of 2018 where your mother confronted your father about molesting it.

She says, yes.

And that wasn't the first meeting.

Was it?

No.

You had a meeting in May of the year before also.

Yes.

And your mother put a safety plan in place where your father wasn't allowed to be alone

with you or your sisters.

Yes.

That, that is what happened.

Like I got her to completely come forward with that and, and admit that in her older

sister denied it.

Oh, great.

So now I, I have them completely contradicting each other on this, like very critical, you

know, this critical fact, as far as like, why, you know, why their father is this monster

and why my theory of the case is a little bit more believable.

But you know, I'm getting out that like, that there's been all of this messed up stuff going

on in her life.

Um, and that, you know, clearly she has been a victim and she's been a victim by her father.

Like that's undeniable.

Um, I'm not trying to, to beat her up, but I'm, I am getting her to, to come with me down,

down the road of like, we are here for a reason.

And it's really about your dad and kind of, and she just comes along and, and, and testifies

about it.

It sounds like you did a great job there with that, with daughter number three.

Yeah.

Because I knew what I had with her.

And after daughter number two had set up kind of these, these, you know, the denials of

things, like I knew I was going to be able to get that material out through the oldest

sister.

The fact that daughter number three comes with me and, and really just embraces the

fact that she has to tell the truth.

And I think she took that to heart.

Um, it was, it was great.

It was like one of those really like, it didn't, I, I didn't have notes.

I didn't have to think real hard.

I just kind of like easily walked her through it.

And, and it, it, it went, it did, it went really, really well.

It was one of the best classes of my career, I think.

All right.

So then, um, the state rest and now it's time for your case, right?

Right.

Um, we start with grandma because obviously grandma's, you know, there for, for daughter

number three.

Um, she's a fact witness.

Grandma comes up and she is a short feisty woman.

She is a true character.

Uh, and she is mad as hell about having to do this because she thinks that her daughter

is, has ruined the entire family by getting together with her husband.

Um, and that these kids are all sorts of messed up and she's got thoughts and there's nothing

I can do to that, you know, to control her from getting to, from getting some of that stuff.

I mean, before you, when I was prepping her, she looked at me and she said, she's like, you

want to know how I feel about my daughter?

I was like, what do you, how do you feel right now?

She's like, I brought her into this world and I want to take her out of it.

I was like, okay, that's that, that is this thing.

And I don't want you to say that in front of the jury, please.

But I, I, I get it.

Um, you know, she says like, you know, first off in, at no point in time was Dennis, my

client ever downstairs, just watching TV, just not something that he does alone.

And secondly, there's never, you know, unless there's a, a football game or hockey game on

like he's, you know, he's either sleeping or he's working at night.

Like he's not, he's not there to, to hang out downstairs.

And, you know, if one of the girls is on the sofa, there's at least another one.

If not all three of these, you know, the older daughters on the sofa, they're always

together.

And I have her kind of lay out the room.

And I was like, so if I'm sitting on the sofa and you're sitting in your chair, can you

see what's happening on the sofa?

She's like, yeah, it's right there.

You know, she like, she like looks at the jurors and she's, you know, she's like, it's

right there.

Like, of course I can see what's going on.

They're like, did you ever see, you know, your son alone with any of your grandchildren?

She's like, absolutely not.

And so she, she's really credible here.

She kind of sets the stage for how chaotic the house is.

I think that's a good, that's a good first witness.

You know, she's sort of, cause she's at home all the time.

And everybody loves grandmas.

So yeah.

Yeah.

And she's kind of, she's like a rough and tumble kind of grandma, right?

Like she's disabled, but she's, but she's, she's a character and she's not hiding her emotions

about what's going on in this case very well, but she's answering the questions and she's

not being combative, but she, you can tell that there's a little bit of hostility that

she's here for this.

Um, but the one, the key thing that she did was she testified to how cold downstairs was

because that was for sister number two, a critical component.

She's like, there's, you know, I was like, how cold is it downstairs?

She's like, it's freezing.

It's always freezing in that house.

They're always running that AC.

And you, everyone is always in sweatpants and like a pullover inside the house because

it's so cold downstairs.

It's like, so if somebody was hot, would they have to go upstairs?

She goes, no, you could, you, you can't get hot downstairs.

Like it's not, it's just not how it happens.

So then I call the similar age girl to the two victims who basically says like, we were friends,

you know, I've known, uh, their uncle my entire life.

You know, he saved my life once, you know, he was the person that my family relies on for

these sorts of things.

And, you know, daughter number three told me that none of this ever happened is essentially

what she testifies to.

And the DA just doesn't know what to do with that.

Um, you know, he didn't anticipate it.

And so, and so he kind of loses his mind because now we have someone on the stand who's saying

the, you know, the complaining witnesses say this did not happen.

Um, and not just one of them, but both of them were there, right?

She's saying both sisters were there.

She worked with both of them, but one of them definitively said it.

Um, and she did really well.

I mean, for being a kid and to, you know, to, you know, and this is, this is when the

starts, it's kind of temper starts to come out.

He doesn't treat her like a kid.

He doesn't try to treat her like a kid.

He tries to, he puts pressure on her during his cross.

Um, you know, and saying, you expect us, you know, did you ever tell the police that,

that this happened?

She's like, no, you know, like, I didn't know.

He was like, who did you tell?

I told, you know, I told their uncle.

I told their uncle's attorney.

I told the people, I told my mother, I told the people around me, but I didn't tell the

police.

Like she didn't, you know, she's 17.

She doesn't know.

And she ended day two of testimony.

Um, and she was falling.

Like, I was like, you were great.

And she was like, I ruined it.

I'm like, you didn't ruin anything.

You were fine.

You did what you were supposed to do.

And, and, and she did really well on the stand.

And the thing is that all of my witnesses were there for the entire trial.

Like they all stayed every single day and they sat on the hall and because they weren't

going to leave, they were like, we're all in this together.

Like they, they really like in that show, like they were a very unified, um, family.

And so they weren't, you know, all, everybody was, was always there to support them.

And I think that they, that came through.

So who, uh, so who testified next?

Was it the, your client or the daughter number one?

It was daughter number one, our big witness.

Um, she gets on the stand and she, and she runs and I basically just kind of wind her

up and let her go.

You know, I don't, I don't have to ask her very many questions.

I just have to get her to clarify some things.

She's your star witness.

You know, she is, she really is.

And so she, you know, I, I kind of set the stage, like, you know, did you started living

with my client when, and you know, so I get her rolling on it and she starts telling

the whole story, lived with them for four months.

And she wasn't working.

She was always at home.

Um, she would, you know, the only times that she would be out of the home would be to walk

her sisters to the school bus when they would go to school, if they were at school, but

otherwise that during the days that she was at home.

And I asked her, I was like, you know, are you, to your knowledge, was your uncle ever

alone with your sister?

She goes, no.

It's like, would your uncle ever have had an opportunity be alone with your sister?

She says, no.

I was like, is it very easy to be alone with somebody in this house?

She says, it's very difficult.

So I was like, how do you know that it's difficult to be, to be, to find time to just be alone

with people in this house?

And she goes, and she had told me this a few days before.

Um, and I hadn't told my client what she was going to say because she asked me not to.

I, I haven't told anybody this, but she's like, I know because my father would rape me in the house.

And the way that he would go about doing it was he would have to orchestrate people getting

out of the house to be able to find a space for, to be alone.

So he could rape me.

That was like, how often does this happen?

She said almost every single day, like absolutely credible.

She's crying, you know, like, cause she hadn't told this story.

She had told me a few days prior, but she hadn't told my, my client is bawling.

Like his hands is, his head is in his hands because he hadn't, he hadn't known that this

had happened in the house.

Um, and I was like, were you ever alone with my, with, with your uncle?

She said, yes.

And she talks about the two times where, you know, he pulls her aside and he stops the

fight.

Um, I was like, but did you ever tell your uncle that this was happening?

She says, no, I couldn't.

I just never could muster up the strength to do it.

I was like, so what, what made you come forward?

So she then tells the story about the video and she's the one who authenticates like what

happens during this family meeting.

She verifies daughter number three's account.

Um, because I knew the D I knew the judge was just never going to let me play this actual

video.

Um, and, but her account was so strong and her testimony was so strong that it didn't

really matter because she's saying like, you know, we sat down and I, you know, I come

home because I'm worried about my sister.

And then to see that my, you know, that my step-mom is confronting him about this behavior that had

been happening the during this extended break from, from my family, like while I've been away from

my family, I knew I had to come forward.

So, you know, once I leave and I go back home, I report and you know, that kind of gets the

ball rolling on this.

And so she kind of, you know, she goes into the details about it that, you know, that he has been

convicted, that she was the victim, all of that.

And, you know, and it was really strong and powerful, um, testimony.

And I, and I asked her because I was like, did, did your sisters ever tell you that your uncle did this

to them?

She's like, not until she said the only time they ever told me about it was after.

And I told them, I don't believe that.

It's like, did they ever tell you at the time?

She goes, no, I had no idea that they never told me anything about that.

And I said, if they had told you while you were living in my client's house, that this

had happened, would you have told them to tell your father about it?

She said, absolutely not.

That would have been the last person I would have told them to go tell.

And so she has now undermined their narrative that, you know, that the, the oldest daughter

had, had told her that this is bad, the client that my client had done this to her.

And, and so, you know, I, I basically, I end there.

I'm like, you know, thank you.

Like just to come out and say that I, he raped me every day and orchestrated people coming

and going in the house.

Yeah.

Just flat out come out with that is.

Yeah.

And she, she had never testified before, you know, because he had, you know, he had waved

his prelim and then he fled.

So she is, she's, this was the first time she got to actually kind of tell her story.

And I let her do it.

It was real.

And it was emotional.

You know what I mean?

I looked over during, during her testimony and you know, like one of the jurors is like

wiping her eyes.

Like you can tell that she's hitting with, especially the women on the jury that like the, that like

her testimony is impactful.

So then who's next?

The, your client testifies next.

My client testifies next.

And how's that go?

It goes great.

Um, he gets up there and he says, you know, I walk him through it again and he says, you

know, uh, I, I, I would never be alone with these girls.

You know, like I talked, you know, he goes through kind of like what he had told the police,

um, what he had understood about these things, you know, about what, you know, what his relationship

is to family, what his relationship is to their father.

You know, so he gets out the backstory about him and the dad and why there's been bad blood.

Um, he gets into all of that and I'm like, family's important to you.

Right.

He's like, absolutely.

It was like, I'm like, you know, you let them in to your home because, because they're

family.

I'm like, you know, what can you tell the jury more about that?

He's like, look, like my wife will be really mad about this, but she's like, if these girls

needed something from me, because he talks about like, you know, getting calls at night

and having to go pick them up and things like that, helping them out before the allegations.

He said, like, if they, you know, if down the road, these girls need something like I'm,

I will bring them back into my home.

Like, that's what this means to me.

Like, that's what, that's why my mother lives with us.

That's why I opened my doors to them.

He's like, what they've been through, I can't imagine what they've been through.

And he was really sincere and, and an honest and open about that.

So, yeah, he really was like, you know, I don't know why me, but, but this didn't happen.

And, you know, if they need that, I just want them to get help is what he said.

He's like, I want them to get therapy.

Like I, they need help and I want them to get the help.

And then that's that.

And then, you know, the DA sits down, I have no further questions and we go into closing.

Tell me about that.

So closings, I basically stood up and said, you've heard a lot of really tough testimony

throughout the course of this.

And, you know, I kind of run through the testimony of the two girls and I, you know,

and I point out the contradicting facts, the contradicting testimony over time, you know,

you know, and I kind of like wait, like layer it in, but by not like dumping on them, but

saying like, I can't trust what they're saying because they contradict each other about, you

know, really important, factual things.

And we don't have, we have bad investigation and we have this external factor with the dad

and all of this other stuff.

Like we can't trust what they say.

And because we can't trust what they say, that means that you cannot convict my client.

You have to find him not guilty.

And I said, and on top of that, you know, and sister number one's in the room.

And I point to them, like, you heard from the most credible person in this, in this courthouse

today.

Like you heard from their older sister.

She's here testifying on behalf of my client and they're not blood.

Her sisters are her blood, but my client isn't like, she doesn't have a motivation to lie.

She doesn't have a, she doesn't have a reason to stand up and, and manufacture something to

support him over them because she's a victim.

We know that she's a victim.

Why would she do this?

Why would she put herself in this position?

That's a terrible position to be put in, you know, just to make something up.

It doesn't make any sense.

It's hard to say that someone is lying, especially when they're young and especially when they're

alleging what they're alleging.

And I'm not necessarily saying that they're lying.

But what I'm saying is that my client didn't do the things that they're saying he did to

them.

And because of that, you have to find him not guilty.

You know, I sat down and said, thank you.

What was the DA's closing argument like?

It was, it was, it was something.

Um, you know, he, he walks through all the elements, you know, he does that kind of like

there's like what each element needs needs to be met and how he's met it.

You know, that, that kind of thing.

He doesn't check the box type closing argument.

Exactly.

He checks the boxes.

Um, and he makes this decision that I think was the craziest thing.

Um, he decides that he needs to do something to undermine sister number one.

And his decision is she's lying to you today.

I'm not saying that she's lying, but if, why would she lie?

If she were lying, he kind of puts it in this weird hypothetical.

And he goes, she's embarrassed.

She would lie because she was embarrassed that her sisters told her about these assaults

when they happened and she didn't do anything.

So now to cover up for her mistake, she's going to come and testify for, for her uncle.

I was like, what the fuck are you doing?

I was like, I've never like, did he, I think he just torpedoed his own case by making this

like insane allegation.

And then how long were the jurors deliberating for 45 minutes?

Wow.

That's pretty, that's impressive for a, for a sex case.

Yeah.

They came back in 45 minutes and I, and we stepped out.

My client obviously was real nervous.

I looked at him and I said, if it's fast, it's good for us because it means that they

just, that they just couldn't believe that we gave them enough to say that this isn't,

that this didn't happen.

And so, yeah, they were out for 45 minutes.

And then, and then the most remarkable thing I've ever seen happen is so we get the verdict,

you know, not guilty cross the board.

My client is, you know, is deeply emotional.

And the judge says, all right, I'm going to clear the courtroom.

I want the jurors to stay, you know, and then I'll release them.

I'll release them, but everybody's got to go.

I want to talk to them for a minute.

So we step out, you know, the whole family's there.

My client's crying.

You know, my client looks at me.

He's like, thank you, but I have to go.

So he walks to the elevator.

Cause I know I'm going to see him in a little bit, you know, like the next day.

Cause we had some other business we had to deal with.

And as he's standing at the elevator, the four person and the two women on the jury come

out, the four person comes up, shakes my hand and says, if I ever need help, I want to talk to you.

I want to talk to you, but I need to go talk to your client.

And he rushes to the elevator to shake my client's hand and to tell them like, you know, good

luck, you know, moving forward.

We're so sorry about this.

You know, like he, like the, the jury came out and like, was like engaging with my client

and the two women find sister number one and are in our, and surround her.

Like you are so brave.

Like we can't, you know, like we can't imagine what you've been through, but like, you're

like, you're so strong and you know, like you, we need more people to come out and do what

you're doing.

And we just want to know that we appreciate the strength that you had, you know?

And I'm, I'm, I'm like, this is surreal to me.

I've never seen a response like this after a jury trial.

But, um, and I, and I couldn't be happier.

Right.

It means that like, I hit all of the notes that I wanted to hit and that they really landed

and that these, that what I believed in, in this case, and that we, what I believed in

for this client, um, it wasn't just me that felt that way that, you know, that other, that,

that other people were convinced that, that this, that something bad really happened here,

but it didn't happen, um, in the way that it was described.

Yeah.

That's good.

I mean, that's like one of those like goosebumps moments, right?

You just get these goosebumps thinking about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean like the, you know, the hairs on the back of your neck, like it's just like thinking

about it.

I, I don't think about it all that often right now, but I hadn't thought about it in a few,

in a few weeks, but it's, it is, it's like, it's, it's special, you know, to see citizens

that don't know your client and had to sit there and listen to the worst thing that could

ever be said about somebody.

And to come out of that and want to shake his hand, um, is frankly a very remarkable thing.

And it gives me hope, right?

That like, even in these kinds of cases with these kinds of allegations that people, that

normal people, you know, normal citizens believe in justice.

So, uh, so Josh, we're here at the end and, um, you know, first off, you know, great job

on your, on this case.

This, that was not an easy case to, to handle, you know, to, to get all the backstory is like,

and understand a digest that a timeline of other people's lives.

And you had to sift through all the, all the backstory and all the witnesses and present

it in an organized fashion as you did.

That was, that was not easy to do.

So I want to commend you for an excellent job on this case.

Thank you.

I really appreciate it.

And, uh, you know, so my last question is, uh, why, what made you become a public defender?

So actually one of your guests, a few episodes ago, um, and I don't remember his name, but

he's one of the older, one of the more experienced kind of attorneys in your office.

He, he described like kind of a nexus between, you know, like Marxism and justice, something

to that effect.

That kind of sat with me.

Cause I mean, I think that like economic, um, issues in our society and what our constitution

calls for, for us, um, that like, we, we can't ignore those two things.

Um, and I think that, you know, as far as a principled component, as far as like fairness

and equity, um, I agree with what he said, but you know, it, it's one of those things where,

um, I became a PD because I didn't want to do anything else.

I, I, I don't want to, I want to be a defense attorney, but I want to do this work because

it's too important to all of those people that are accused, um, to leave up to, um, somebody

else, so to speak.

Right.

I trust everybody in my office.

I think they're all great attorneys, but if I wasn't, if I wasn't doing this, maybe somebody,

maybe somebody who doesn't care about them the way that I care about them would be doing

it.

Um, and I, and I'm thankful that I work in a great, great office with great, great attorneys.

Um, but I just love the work and I love being able to help, you know, help people in their

darkest days, frankly, you know, and get, get whatever outcome is that we can with the, you

know, the most justice afforded to them.

Um, that's why we do it.

Nice.

Nice.

Well, well, thanks for coming on the show today.

We appreciate it.

All right.

Thank you.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of another not guilty.

Shout out to Daniel Mark, creator of A and G's original theme music and our audio engineer,

Chris Adams.

And guess what?

We have another not guilty story coming your way next week because we public defenders fight

injustice every single day in the American criminal system.