Liar, Liar, House On Fire – When an Accident Isn't Attempted Murder

All right, my A&Gers, thanks for tuning in to another stellar episode of your favorite

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without further ado, here's this week's episode of Another Not Guilty.

So I'm peaching with the book and I'm like, and just to be clear, sir, this isn't my book,

right? He's like, no, it's my book. I'm like, yes, you brought it to court. It's right in here.

And he's like, yes, we take a break afterwards. I'm in the side room with my trial partner and she's

like, like walk in, she's already in there and she's like, ah, and I'm like, yes, because now we're

like, we're like drinking the Kool-Aid. We're like, ah, we just crushed this guy. And the jurors are,

by the way, too, they're doing the ping pong where they're like looking at me, smiling and looking

back at me, smiling. Judges on the bench, like leaned in like, all right, this is getting good.

Welcome to Another Not Guilty. I'm David Moore, here along with my fellow public defenders presenting

to you the untold stories of the criminal justice system. Objection. That assumes there's justice in

the system, which there ain't. I prefer calling it the American criminal system. These stories are

about the not guilty as public defenders get on a daily basis in an unjust criminal system with

a deck stacked against us. Welcome back, everybody, to Another Not Guilty. It's your

boy, Davey D here, bringing you the freshest not guilties across this great nation of ours,

of America, the United States. I'm a public defender here in Los Angeles. I got co-hosting today. My

guest host is, of course, an A&G all-time favorite. We have Anya on the show today. Anya, how are you

doing today? Glad you could be here. Oh, I'm doing awesome. Thank you so much for having me back. I

love it. Yeah. Anya, you know, it's been a while since you've been on the show. Last I checked,

you're still down in the trenches. Is that correct? Still down in the trenches, but I had a few cases

that were going to be awesome for trial and got some good results, so they didn't go to trial. I got a

dismissal on an attempted murder, so we'll take the dismissal. I know, but it would have been really fun

to try. Yeah, you know, I mean, we could do dismissal shows. I mean, there's still a lot of

workup that goes into a dismissal, and it's still a lot of bullshit that gets unearthed. That's which

is why it's a dismissal, right? That's right. Well, when the prosecutor actually does the right

thing, then yeah, it's a dismissal. Today's guest is a badass defense attorney, former public

defender, all the way from what part of Florida? Miami. Miami, Florida, guys. We got Pat today,

premier defense attorney Pat Wilson on the show today to share our Not Guilty. Pat, how are you

doing today? I'm happy to be here. I'm excited. I got a good story to tell. All right. Okay. Are

you a fan of the podcast? Love the podcast. My buddy Mike Cowie was on it a couple years back.

He used to be a PD in Miami. It's awesome. I like to hear about the wins. So another Not Guilty

Oh, sorry. I was just going to say welcome, Pat. Nice to meet you. Well, thank you. Nice to meet

you too. Okay, Pat. And how long have you been a defense attorney and a public defender for?

I've been a defense attorney for nine years, excluding like eight months where I did plaintiff's work,

which was awful. And I was a PD for about six, six and a half years, the whole time at the Miami-Dade

public defender's office. And I'm back in criminal defense. I got my own practice. Okay. Okay. And this case

that you're sharing with us today is a case from back when you were a Miami public defender, right?

Correct. Yeah. Okay. All right. And okay. And what were the charges in that case?

So he was charged with 11 counts. The first five were attempted murder. Four of them were against

children. There was one count of arson in the first degree, one count of burglary with a battery,

and four counts of child abuse, no great bodily harm. Wow. Four, five counts of attempted murder.

Four of those were children. Who was the fifth person? The fifth person was like an 18 year

old. It was the oldest, the oldest son of the, of the family. Okay. And then one count of

burglary in the first degree. A burglary with a battery. With a battery. What does that mean?

So it's a punishable by life offense down in Florida. That means you entered someone's house

or dwelling with the, with the intent to commit a battery. Yeah. The intent to commit a battery or

another offense like arson, which was the qualifier in this case. With all these charges, how much time

was, uh, what's the max time that your client was facing? So he was what's called a prison releasee

reoffender. He had just finished a federal trafficking sentence or drug trafficking. I think it was pot.

And, um, so he was enhanced as a prison releasee reoffender. So the first seven counts carried

mandatory life. And then the last five, I think were 10 with a five year min man, the last four,

excuse me. So because he had a prior record, the attempted murders meant a specific charges on his

prior record. The attempted murders meant it's just automatic life, life without the possibility

parole, just LWAP. Yep. Quickest sentencing you'll ever do. Uh, and what, what did your client allegedly

do? What are the police, the prosecution saying your client did? All right. So going off the police

report, the allegation is that he broke back into his ex's house with a jug of gasoline, started pouring

gasoline throughout the house and then started lighting those puddles on fire. Um, the oldest daughter

walked out of, I guess the bathroom and saw him lighting one of the puddles on fire. And he said,

if I can't have you guys, no one will, we're all going to die together. And then he ran away

afterwards, according to them. Um, the next day he turned himself into the police station covered in

burns. And according to the lead detective, he confessed that, um, what his former family told

him, told the detective is true. And, uh, he did, you know, try to set the house on fire and kill

everyone. Those are some intense, um, facts, but I had a question. You said that there were, uh,

uh, four children and then one 18 year old. What were the ages of the other four kids?

The oldest daughter was like 15. Then there was a 12 year old who was a boy. And then there was a

younger boy and a girl probably around like four and one. I don't remember the exact ages, but they

were real young. So broke into the house and created six, did you say six puddles? Six puddles of gas.

Gas. Where in the house was it? According to the report, it was like throughout the house. He was

pouring gas. He would stop. He'd go somewhere else. He'd pour more gas, like pouring gas throughout

the house and then started setting, setting those gas puddles on fire. And the oldest daughter,

the 15 year old woke up, came, walked out of her room and saw him there. And he says, if I can't

have you, nobody will. Right. We're all going to die together. We're all going to die together.

So I'm going to die. It's a very close family. We've got to do everything together.

Live, laugh, love, die. And what was the, he said ex-girlfriend, right?

Yeah. So the mom of the five kids, he and her had been dating for about three years. It turned

sour maybe the last year because she alleged, no, she caught him cheating. He, he admitted

that at some point and, um, I got more and more toxic and then he left the house. He got

arrested for like misdemeanor battery at some point, but that was dropped. And he eventually,

according to her, left the house and, and, uh, and then broke back in. Okay. And then the

next day he turns himself into the police and then tells the detectives that what the police

or what the least with the 15 year old daughter reported is true. Right. Yep. Yeah. They,

it, the incident was actually on the news. So there was like, like basically like a, like

a wanted image of, of my client on the news. He was at his brother's house in Key Largo,

which is just South of where this happened in Miami. It happened in Homestead, which is like

the Southern most town in, um, Miami. And he saw that. So he went into the police station

the next day. And that's when the supposed, the confession actually occurred at the hospital

because he went from the police station to the hospital for his burns. And then the arson

detective interviewed him. These are some bad facts, Pat. Not going to lie. I was a brand new

A, which is like the highest level, uh, pit attorney at the PD's office is one of my, and it's,

I read through the cases alphabetically and the defendant's last name is, starts with a B.

So this was like the second case I read. And I was like, Holy fuck. This is not a good case.

Yeah. This sounds really bad. I am very curious how you managed to get a not guilty out of, uh,

this pile of crap. Okay. So you get the case. It's the second case you look at and, uh, tell us

where you go from there. So I go to meet the guy at some point and he's, uh, he's adamant about

going to trial. Like not only he's adamant, this case has been at my office for like almost five

years and he's like fuming because he hasn't had a trial and people have kept pushing the case off

because it looks terrible. So he's adamant about going to trial. Um, he doesn't want any more

continuances. He doesn't want any more work done. He's like, let's go. I'm ready. Um, did you guys

talk about the defense or possible defenses or anything like that? Yeah. He, um, he told me what had

happened. He said that he had gone back over there, but it was like the night they had like broken up

for good. Um, he was going there to collect some things. And one of those things was like a dirt

bike to sell. And he had to gas up the dirt bike to, to get it out of there. And he was, so he did

carry the gas jug through the house, but as he was carrying it, it like leaked and fell everywhere.

And then there was like a, and everything caught on fire and he was burning and, and that, that was

his story of what happened. It was an accidental fire.

Where did the flame come from? I mean, if he's walking through the house with this jug of gas,

I can see that, but where does the accidental flame happen?

Did you know at this time?

No, I had no clue when I heard it. I was like, it sounds like spontaneous combustion. Like this is

not a good idea. And I'm trying to like staff with other lawyers to figure out a way to, to present

this case. But the other wrinkle is he's like, not only do I want to go to trial, I am a hundred

percent testifying. You will never talk me out of it. I'm going to tell my story. I'm innocent.

I've been waiting five years. Stop talking to me about not testifying.

Good for him.

I know. I, you know, hindsight, well done.

It's nice though. If you're just, if you're not in control, right? Just let go as a defense

attorney. I am not, I am powerless.

So Pat, your client's story is he kind of had the final breakup with the girlfriend. And then that

night he goes to the house to get some items that she agreed he could have, right?

Correct. Yeah. It was like the split up.

And he gets a motorbike from some type of doom, a dirt bike motorbike from the backyard. Is it a

house with a backyard by the way? Yeah. It's, it's actually, it was the mayor of Homestead's house

who was renting it to the family. Ooh, fancy. Okay. It wasn't that fancy, but it was, it was his house.

And what time of night did he go over there? It had to have been like 1030, you know, late,

not too late. Where was the girlfriend? She was picking up a pizza at Little Caesars.

Did they establish what time he was going to come over? Like it was agreed upon that he'd come over

at a particular time. So she knew to expect him? According to him. Yes. According to her, absolutely

not. Oh. So your client tells you that it was just gasoline just kind of spilled throughout the

house as he's carrying the jug of gas through the house, as opposed to the backyard. Around the

house, right? You know, I'm going to take a big old greasy gas through the house. Leaking.

Leaking gas can. At 1030 while everybody is sleeping and it's just going to spontaneously combust.

As Anya points out, where's the fire coming from? Good defense, right? You're feeling even better at

this time as a defense attorney because, you know, the police reports were in some way, but you go meet

the client and he's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Totally. He clarified everything perfectly.

I'm not feeling super confident, but I mean, geez, where did this go from here? I'm excited to hear.

Yeah. Anya, can you keep an open mind? Can you reserve? Can you reserve judgment until you hear all the

evidence? Okay. All right. All right. I'll try, but I don't know. That, that police report was very

compelling. What other items of evidence are there out there? Like witness statements, crime scene

investigation, experts done, because five other lawyers have touched this case. So could you give us a

summary of what, what other evidence was in the file? So most of the depots have been taken. There was

an arson expert from Havana, Florida, who like determined that the sediment on the ground was

gasoline. There was a, um, some of the cop who, who initially arrested him at the police station.

There was all the family members. There was the ex, there was the ex's sister. There was three fire rescue

officers who at the time I didn't know they were experts, but they were experts in arson.

And then there was the, the lead detective. Were any of the kids awake during the, the time that the

guy comes in with the can of gas? Just the oldest daughter. She was actually washing her hair in the

bathroom and she heard someone come in. Uh, and then did those statements or those, those different

people that you've mentioned, did they say anything or add anything to the story or any extra analysis?

Um, there was a witness statement from the daughter that turned out to be pretty crucial. Like the

first responding officer wrote it and that was like pre-deposition and pre-talking to the lead

detective. Um, there was like the arson report from the lead and there was some fire rescue reports,

but like, you know, the, all of the discovery at that point appeared to back up the, what was alleged

in the police report. Okay. Okay. And all right. So then you said there was one more deposition that

had to be taken. That's from the lead detective, right? Yep. Okay. Yep. That's what I told him. I'll,

I'll try the case. Let me depose the lead first. And, um, he was retired. This is his last case of

his career. He was living in Ocala, Florida, which is like horse country. It's very nice,

very picturesque. Um, I deposed him over, I don't think it was zoom, but whatever the equivalent of

zoom was pre pandemic, because we didn't want to drive to Ocala, me and the prosecutor. And he's

like this tall, handsome salt and pepper detective who's like more could not be more laid back. Cause

he's just been, you know, living on like, I don't know, a 10 acre homestead with like horses and

other animals. And he came off as super credible. What did he say? Well, he, he talked about his

investigation. He said a bunch of what I now know to be like arson hoodoo statements about like

burn tracks and fire trails and scorch marks and crocodile skin. Um, but back then it sounded really

compelling. And he talked about the, the defendant's confession to him. And he really just backed up the,

uh, his report. Okay. So you're impressed by this detective. He uses some, uh, some buzzwords that

you don't quite understand. So you're impressed. At least, you know, you're, you can't really fight

him on that stuff. Um, you mentioned something about a, a, a statement by the, the daughter,

the 15 year old daughter, right? That was written. Did you say written or did I admit that? Did I add

that? No, it was written on, on scene, like the regular patrol officer got a statement from her,

like written out and she signed it. And it, it, what was interesting about that statement,

what I noticed beforehand is it said, um, if I can't have you, nobody will, but it said nothing

about, we're all going to die together. So that was something that was alleged later on by her in the

deposition and in the detective's report, but it was nowhere in that deposit and that statement she

wrote on scene. Okay. So that caught your eye that the, the second part of the statement,

if I can't have you, nobody will, we're all going to die. The, we're all going to die part was not

on her written statement. Yeah. And you would think that if you heard that, that would be like

seared into your memory for the rest of your life. And that's something you would write down on

the report to the police officer at that time. Maybe burned into your memory. So what happens

after the deposition? What happens next? So I actually get reassigned to a different courtroom

and I don't have the case for a period of time until my office decides that the attorney who replaced

me, even though I had the same exact number of cases has too many cases. So we need to parse some

of these out. So they're like, Hey Pat, you work this case up as an, I took one deposition.

You haven't, you get it back, man. Every PD office has that story.

I know we always joke that you don't want to touch the file because the minute your DNA gets on the

outside of that manila folder, it's over. It's yours. Okay. So you, you still have the case.

You get re okay. So what happens next? So it's in repeat offender court. What's repeat offender

court? Repeat offender court is in Miami. If a prosecutor decides that the judge you're in

front of is too lenient on a serious case that qualifies to repeat offender court, they'll send

your case to repeat offender court where there's a judge that, uh, you know, like a tough on crime

judge. I actually like him now, but he's not going to do you any favors on evidentiary rulings.

He's going to hit your guy with the maximum punishment or close to that.

So here's a question. How many, um, offenses does one have to have before they're a repeat offender?

One. No, what type of effect? Like what type of prior record is like a, like a misdemeanor or no,

like a burglary, like, like some, something you would think is not sufficient to get you into

repeat offender court, but like, like one burglary will do it. This guy, he really didn't have a

significant criminal past. He had two trafficking convictions, but they were for pot. And it wasn't

like he had a bunch of like scary robberies or rapes or anything that would make you think it

should go to repeat offender court. So he sold marijuana on two, or at least was caught selling

marijuana on two separate occasions. Yeah. He did a public good for many years and went to prison for

it. And then now he's facing punishment for the rest of his life because he got caught selling pot.

Wow. Pat, does, does repeat offender court have like a nickname or do you guys have to call it?

Rock court. You guys call it rock court. Which is so dumb because then that means it's repeat

offender court court, right? It should be row court. And for a while I would go in there and I would

tell the judge, I was like, it's good to be in row court again. And he'd look at me like I'm an

alien. Cause obviously he likes the name rock court. Cause I guess it sounds cool.

Rock court. All right. Well, you can't be soft in rock court. That's for sure.

No, no, you can't.

Do the DAs even make offers in rock court?

Yeah, but they're so terrible. I think the offer and the offer that was floated was like,

we never, we never negotiated, but like at one point I was like, what do you, what would you

resolve this case to? And the prosecutor who was like 20 to 25 years, which.

Yeah, that's, I mean, might as well just go to trial. That's. Um, okay. So what happens next?

And you get sent to the rock court with the tough judge because the other judge, it wasn't tough

enough for the DA. And what happens next in the development of the case or the defense?

So the, the prosecutor is pregnant at the time of the deposition and she's more pregnant at the time

where we're getting close to trial. And the judge is cranky because this is a case that sat around for

years. And, um, my client's even more upset. So I told the prosecutor, I'm like, are you going to be

upset with me if I file a demand while you're on maternity leave? And she was like, I will kill you.

And I was like, all right, then let's try it before you leave. And so we let the next hearing,

we appeared before the judge and we agreed on a date. Oh, great. Okay. That's a pretty ballsy move

to, um, you know, go to trial when the prosecutor is super pregnant. So, you know, that she may be

trying to get some, uh, you know, sympathetic points with potential jurors. That was a gutsy move.

I think it was a dumb move, but I'm glad it worked out. And I can't destroy her in trial,

right? Because she's like pregnant and everyone likes her because, because of that, I can't,

you know, do the normal thing where if they, I can just lay it, I can, you know, beat them down

over a period of two weeks. I have to, you know, be nice. And she's hiding evidence under that,

under that. Yeah. That's not a real baby. That's not about baby bump. That's where the evidence is.

And she's not turning it over because she doesn't want you to know the truth. It's not a baby.

It's Brady. Order her to lift her shirt, judge. She doesn't want to.

Now we're back in, now we're back in sex offender court. Correct. All right. So you file,

you guys are going to go to trial. Um, that your defense is what your client told you. Have you

done anything to like really get the case together? Yeah. I called an arson expert because I like

researched arson and I found out he was going to be like 20 grand and I was like, well, we can't use

him. So your defense started with a Google search. Great. Yep. Yep. Yep. What, what is arson?

Solid work. Great. Printed that out. Put it in the file. Good.

Is gasoline flammable. Yes. But I was lucky because I had an uncle who was a, I have an uncle who's a

firefighter and I have another uncle who sold gas for like 20, 20, 25 years. So I was like,

called them both up separately. And I was like, you gotta help me with this. Like, how is this possible?

Um, and one of my uncles was like, where did this happen in the house? And I was like, it was in the

kitchen area, the six puddles near the side entrance. And he's like, what's the side entrance? And he's

like, it's the laundry room. And I'm like, is there a, uh, hot water heater in that laundry room? And I'm

like, yeah. And he's like, does it have a pilot light? And I was like, I don't know. Pilot light's

like an open flame under the water tank before we had tankless water heaters. And when you're using

your hot water, it'll turn on if it runs low or out. Um, and then, you know, I like that moment,

like go to my file and look at the photos and like, there is, there is a pilot light under it.

I'm like, he's like, yeah, that could, that could start a fire. And I was like, okay, we got something.

Nice. That was the, that was the defense. The pilot light started the fire. Everything he said was true.

It wasn't a spontaneous combustion, but it was an accidental, uh, appliance fire.

So then they just said like that, did they explain how the ignition source could light the gas on fire

though? Like the, like how would that happen? Do you have to pour gasoline on the ignition source or

how does it, how does it work? So the gas, what burns is not the, not the liquid. It's the fumes.

It's like when you have a gas fire, the fumes are, are what's burning and the fumes are coming from the

liquid, which eventually dissolves. So. Oh, did you get this from your Google search or was this from?

No, no, no. This is from Jeeves. He asked Jeeves. That's Jeeves. Wikipedia. Wikipedia.

I, so yeah, I was like, the fume just has to make contact with the pilot light and then whoosh.

Was the gas can actually ever recovered? The one that your client was using?

It was, or like the remains of it. It was a, a gallon milk jug. So it wasn't like a real gas

can, like the red one. It was, he was storing gas there in a gallon milk jug outside.

Oh, okay. Yeah. That doesn't, that doesn't sound safe. Remind me again. Where was this

jug leaking from? I don't know. And he wasn't entirely sure, but somehow it started like the,

the, I guess the structure was compromised and it started leaking and that's what happened in the

house. And let me go back. When he told you his story, did he tell you like the, how he put the

fire out and stuff like that? Or did he, he did put the fire out, right? Is that, he did and not,

not at first, but eventually I was, we, we, me and my trial partner, when we talked to him before trial,

we're like, how did this fire go away? And he's like, I put it out. And I was like, how'd you put

it out? He's like, I put it out with a blanket. And I'm like, why'd you use a blanket? He's like,

you can't pour water on a gas fire, which is actually true too. You had mentioned that he had

some burns himself. Where in his body was he burned and how bad was it? So he had burns on his

forearms, on his shins, on his feet, on a little bit on his thighs. And he had none on his hands,

except for like one little spot, which is real, which is actually really important during the

trial. So this is, this is, this is good news. Then you talk to your uncles, they told you about

the ignition source, the open pilot light. It's, it's reasonable doubt. At least you got a,

you got a reasonable explanation as to how this happened. Uh, so how are you feeling at this

moment? Not great. I don't, I'm still concerned about the trial, but I'm glad I at least get to

go in there and say something without like, this is what happened. So they, you did not have an

arson expert, but obviously the prosecution did. Did the prosecutor's, um, expert address the, um,

water heater pilot light as the source, or did it mention the, the, the, uh, water heater at all?

Not at all. Not at all. The lead detective never mentioned it. The fire rescue officers

never mentioned it. It turned out after when we got in the trial, the fire rescue officers weren't

great. They didn't address anything about harsin because they weren't listed as experts, but, um,

it turned out they really did not know what they were doing when they did the investigation.

So, all right. So you're still concerned about the trial, of course, cause it's still,

your client's looking at life, uh, no possibility of parole. Uh, it's your client's version of what

happens. Uh, and at least you have an explanation. So, uh, what happens next in the case?

So we go into jury selection, jury selection. I, I do the same thing every time because I think it works

on explaining what I'm trying to do. And it also makes me like likable when people typically don't

like lawyers or interacting with lawyers. So I do this like Halle Berry example where it's very like

deadpan and I'll like walk up to the, a juror, typically a female juror. And I'll say, you know,

miss so-and-so what if I were to tell you that right now I am dating the Halle Berry? Do you

believe me? At least it'd be a bunch of laughter and she'll look at me and I'm like, do you believe

me? And she's like, no. I'm like, why not? And then it's always great. It's always like,

she's a beautiful movie star. You're a schmucky lawyer. She lives in California. Isn't rich.

Your shoes aren't that nice. You're not that tall. You're not that good looking, like all kinds of

stuff that, you know, it's a good start. And then I get to be self-deprecating about it.

And I say, all right, all right. But let me ask you this. What if I had a picture of me and Halle

Berry in our swim trunks, hand in hand, walking down South Beach? Do you believe me now? And they're

like, no, it could be Photoshopped. You could be friends. You could have grabbed her hand like a

crazy person. And that like escalates to like a video, another person until finally the jurors are

pretty engaged and lively. And you ask one of them, what do I need to bring? And what do

they say? Halle Berry. Of course. And then I get to do a thing where I'm like, you know, I have a

confession. I'm not dating Halle Berry. I was married. I'm married to a more lovely woman. I really

appreciate the way you approach this case. Thank you for your attention to detail, how you scrutinize

the evidence, looked at the evidence, the lack of evidence, the conflicts of evidence, everything

where reasonable doubt comes from. Can you promise me to do it for Mr. So-and-so? Because we can all

agree it's a really important day for him. I love that. And they all say, yeah, it's a good start.

I've never heard that. That is a fantastic technique. I love it. Thanks. I stole it from

watching Lauren Kane do it. Oh, who's that? She was a PD when I was an intern. Oh, okay. A Florida

PD? Yeah, not anymore. But she was a Florida PD, now the wife of a good friend of mine. And I saw

her do it with Brad Pitt. And it worked really well. Okay, so you're doing well with the jurors. It

sounds like I like that technique. Any memorable moments with any specific jurors?

Yeah, so I voideered on fire and experience and like firefighting and fire expertise. Because the

state didn't know, the state did as well. But what they didn't know is that I wanted people with

knowledge about fire. Because at this point, I'm convinced that Mr. Brooks' story makes more sense

than the state's story. And I'm going to be able to lay that out. So I want people to understand

how gasoline and how fire works. So there was one juror who was a two-time convicted felon,

but he had his rights restored. And he had fought fires out in California, I'm assuming as a convict,

but I'm not entirely sure. But I'm assuming as a convict. And he, there had to be a, I had to talk to the

judge about, he's like, well, he can't serve. He's a felon. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Jeb Bush restored

his rights. He has every right to serve on this jury. And for whatever reason, I think because they

thought he would be helpful because of his knowledge, that man made the jury.

You know, it's funny. I get to see the judge, like, questioning the juror who had two fire

foundies and being like, anything about the process you thought was unfair? Anything, uh,

hold any animosity? Nope. Everything was great. Totally fair. Going to prison.

Yeah. Basically what he said, I was treated fair. I was like, okay, cool. Thank you.

Can you be fair to both sides? Yep. Can be fair to both sides.

To the prosecutor, worry about anything? Nope.

Not at all. Nothing to see here.

Just a regular citizen.

Okay. So we talked about jury selection. Okay. Can you tell us about the prosecutor's

jury, uh, voir dire?

I think it was a pretty state voir dire. Nothing, nothing particularly stood out. They asked about

fire as well. They identified the same two jurors. Um, they may have talked about kids too. I think I

talked about kids as well because four of the victims were, were children, but you know, to this

prosecutor's credit, she's not like this dirty, underhanded, conniving prosecutor. She's pretty,

a pretty straight shooter. So it was like a pretty typical state voir dire. Okay. And you know,

just going into trial, how is your client doing at this time? He is ecstatic. He is beyond ecstatic.

You know, I went to Goodwill. I've got like three solid jacket, shirt, tie combinations for him. Um,

he's, he is eating it up. He loves my trial partner. My trial partner is still a PD. Her name's

Yaneli Samora. She's fucking awesome. She's won like seven cases this month or something like that.

She's a supervising attorney now. Um, so he loves her. He's so happy with me and he is, he is beyond

confident. He's like, I am out of here once this case is done. Um, okay. So your client's looking good.

He's excited. Prosecutor that hurt a little voir dire thing. So, all right, time for opening statements

then. Tell us about that. So an opening statement, I get right into it. I hit it with primacy. I knew

what I was going to hit on and I was going to hit on accidental fire. How am I going to hit that? I'm

going to hit the gas can to begin with. So I had two pictures on each side on like a, like a small

cardboard demonstrative. One was a milk jug. And on the other side was like a proper gas can,

like a jerry can we think of from like world war two. And I was like, this is a proper gas can. You

can tell cause it's red. You can tell cause it's got a department of transportation stamp. You can tell

it's got a United something energies lab stamp. It's got this spigot. It's got this little hole in

the back of ventilation. It's got an anti-static. This is what you're supposed to store gas in safely.

Flip it. This is not a proper gas can. It doesn't have a ventilation hole. It doesn't have all these

things. And I want, if you're going to remember one thing throughout this case, I want you to remember

that this is a proper gas can. Flip. This is not a proper gas can. And if you store your gas like

this, it significantly increases the likelihood of an accidental fire. All right, Smokey, only you can

prevent. You know, it was like a PSA. Store your gas like this. Well, good. I like that demonstrative

opening. I'm hooked. How was the prosecutor's opening statement? It was a very, it wasn't the

prosecutor who had the case, the pregnant one. It was her friend who was like, like the second in

command of domestic violence back then. I like her too. She, um, it's the classic prosecutor opening

where you pick the nastiest sentence your client says during the trial or during the case. And you

go like, walk up there and you say, if I can't be with you, no one will. We're all going to die

together. That's what this defendant said on April 14th, 2014, when he tried to burn his former family.

I like the pointing. You said she did the pointing? Yeah, the pointing, which, you know,

that's fine. I always flip it back on him in closing, but it's the pointing. And then it's a

lot of like going through the facts on the A-form chronologically and saying, then this witness is

going to come. And then this witness is going to come. And then I learned we got four experts in

arson or three experts in arson, two of the fire rescue officers and the detective. And I was like,

you know, I say objection, you know, and they like over, over, not overruled. I think the judge

passes it to after the opening. And, um, like, that's the, you know, it's the story that the cop

wrote. And then just like a walkthrough of the witnesses and what they're going to say.

What was your objection for what?

Uh, Richardson. I was, I thought it was a discovery violation because you're supposed to tell me if

you're one of your witnesses is an expert in what field and provide a seat, CV or resume.

And they hadn't done that for the fire rescue officers.

Okay. So you knew of the, their existence to the case because maybe they wrote a sentence or a

statement. They had some type of involvement, but to label them an expert beyond like the couple

sentences and observations they had, you didn't get that type of notice. Otherwise you would have

been able to prepare for it. So you objected.

Yup. And there was not a single question asked by the previous lawyers about, about arson related

topics of these fire rescue guys.

Did, did judge rock also, uh, agree with you with this, uh, to exclude these, uh, experts? No,

of course, of course not. He's like, it's not a discovery violation. It wasn't willful. There's

no prejudice. There's no discovery violation. Even if there was a discovery violation, there was no,

it wasn't willful. There was no prejudice. And, and we're continuing the trial. I was like,

okay, cool. Thanks judge.

So you got it though. You got it, Pat. You're, you're a grade public defender, you know? So

this ain't nothing to you. You got it. Uh, all right. So then tell us about the rollout of the

evidence. How did it go for the prosecution? Who they put up first?

They called the ex first and the ex, um, clearly had some rough years in the next five years

afterwards. Um, and what I didn't realize until like during a break is she had like this,

wrap around her head. Cause she had this crazy forehead tattoo that was new from like the original

case. She, she admitted that they had a, they, they, they actually ran into him at the dollar

tree that night, which was consistent with his story. Um, we tried to impeach her on a 911 call,

not from this case, but from like the day before or something where she was telling the police that he

has a key because she said to the police in this case, he doesn't have a key. We weren't allowed to

impeach at the 911 call because of the judge's ruling. So that's how this all started. The two

of them just randomly ran into each other at a dollar tree that earlier in the night,

according to her, according to the client, they were, they were doing, they were doing like the,

like the real breakup talk where it's like, I got to take my stuff. Um, can I go back to the house

and get my checkbook and some other stuff he had. And according to him, she had given him the okay.

But according to her, it was like, she ran into him at dollar tree. They talked for a little bit.

She didn't give him permission to go back home. Um, but she acknowledged this conversation,

which was important because it gave him credibility.

And what was, what's the issue with the key? Why? Like, so you said that, so she testified that

there, he doesn't have a key to the house, right?

That was big for like the burglary charge because he was saying that he had a key to the house.

He had permission to be there. He didn't break any lock. Um, cause the, there was at one point,

they said that the lock was broken. And then later on the, they said the, the daughter and the ex

ex-girlfriend said that he pushed a window pane out and then reached in and unlocked the door.

Um, so I think it was important for forced entry and it was important to show that what he was saying

was correct because he, he didn't break in. He just unlocked the door.

Right. Okay. Yeah. So that, that is a, that is a big fact, right? Cause why would he bust open a door

or go through a window to get in the house, which would be burglary, which means he doesn't have

permission to be there. But if he has a key to the house and he just opens the door,

it shows there's more of an amicable relationship there.

Yeah. And like the day before she called the cops on him and she said in the 911 call, he has a key.

So that doesn't sound like an amicable relationship then. So she called the police on him the day

before about what?

Yeah. I mean, it was, it was hot and cold according to him, which, you know, it happens.

Called the police on him for violence or what?

No, I don't, I don't even, I don't even remember. Like he was there and they were,

they was at a point in their relationship where she didn't want him there.

So the judge would not let you impeach with the, with the key or the, with the 911 call where she

says he has a key.

Correct. So she testifies he didn't have a key and you say, well, then he had one the next earlier,

the previous day. She says, no. So you think you would be able to bring in the 911 call to show

that she did say that? And the judge said, no. Can you explain that legal reasoning or legal

gymnastics there?

Yeah. So there was a, there was like maybe some interference in the 911 call, like some background

noise. So she clearly said it, but the prosecutors were arguing that, oh, she didn't say he didn't,

he has a key. She said that he doesn't have a key and like, no, that wasn't the case. And, but the

judge was like, yeah, it's not clear. You can't impeach him with it.

Yeah. It just sounds like rock judges out to fuck over, you know, the defense. That's what it sounds

like. I mean, it's really up to the jurors to decide what they believe. And they should have been

allowed to hear the, the 911 call and, you know, use their own ears and their own ear holes to

determine whether she said he had a key or he didn't. And it should have been presented to them.

So what happened? Who testifies next for the prosecution?

Big witness, the daughter who heard the statement that the scary statement, who saw the fire being

lit by her quasi stepdad.

Okay. Tell us about that.

So I got to cross her and I did the impeachment where you get her to commit to what she said,

where she said, I, I, he told me that, um, if I can't have you, no one will, we're all going to

die together. And I was like, you remember writing the statement? And I walk up and I shut,

I'm like, point to me where it says we're all going to die together. And she's like,

it's not in there. And I'm like, and that's the first thing you told the police. And she's like,

yes. I didn't know exactly how she was claiming he was lighting the fire, but I knew that their

theory was that he used a Bic lighter, which we all know is like the one that flame comes like

right off your hand. And I knew from my Wikipedia gasoline research that if you lit a, lit a gas fire

like that, it would just scorch your hand because the flame would come up and it would be really hot

and it would hit everything. So she said, like a Bic lighter where you press the button,

like kind of the button. And then the flame just pops up like that. Yeah, exactly. But like the,

the, the, the cheap one, you know, you get the gas station where you go.

Also, if you turn that fly, uh, that lighter upside down to go to hit the ground, cause that's where the

gas, the gas is on the ground, like on the carpet or in the kitchen or something, right?

On tile. Yeah. It's on tile. So you got to turn the lighter upside down, but if you turn the lighter upside down,

the flame doesn't go down, the flame just goes right back up into your hand. So it's really hard to light

something on fire like that. Yep. It's no, it's, it, it was a huge gift because I had control in the cross

because earlier on, I impeached her on the lock versus the key. And she had been probably prepped by someone

because at one point she said it was the lock was broken. And in court, she said that like the window

pane thing. So I impeached her with the, the, he broke the lock statement that she wrote to the

first police officer on scene. And I went through all the good stuff her former stepdad did for her.

I was like, he bought you Jordans. He took you on trips. He took you out to eat. At first he was

really nice to your mom before she caught him cheating. That's when the relationship turned sour,

but he was a good stepdad. He, you actually used to have a stutter and she's like, I'm not

stuttering in court now. I'm like, exactly. And he helped you get rid of your stutter. And she's

like, yeah. Um, cause she had just been hit on that impeachment. And then I, I felt control. So I

was, I went off script and I was like, all right, I want you to step down and show me how he lit the

fire. And so she bends at her. I know we're playing with fire, right? Yeah. We're just going to have

terrible puns the whole time. So she reaches, she does like, she bends at her waist, reaches all

the way down. Like she's got a lighter and it's like an inch off the ground. And I'm like, so he

did that all six times. And she's like, yeah. And like, didn't understand the significance of it.

But like the jurors, especially the fire guys are like, yeah, that's not possible. What's not

possible about it? If you, if, if you try to light a gasoline puddle like that, gas burns at like

what, 1100, 1200 degrees. And it'll, all the flames will ignite at the same time, all the fumes that

have been building up. And it's going to just burn and singe and destroy your hand. So you'd have

really, really bad burns on your hands. And what I noticed from the photographs before is he didn't

have any burns on his hands. He had them on his forearms, on his shins, on his feet. Um,

he had like one little drop, but his hands weren't singed at all. Like he still had his

knuckle hair.

You highlight the photographs or lack of burns prior to her testimony, like maybe in an opening

statement or, okay. So the jurors were already aware of the lack of burns on the hands because

you had planted that seed in their head. And then she got up in the stand and demonstrated.

So, you know, it's kind of lost on me. Is that like, just sort of like, is there this sort of

just this assumption that Mr. Brooks, you said his name actually. Is it really? Yeah. Okay.

It is, but I'm not going to go any further than his last name. Okay. He knows I'm doing this.

That it's like Mr. Brooks would kill all these people just because of a breakup. Like, is there

something about him that would say that he would just fly off the wall and try to kill children

and burn them down? And I mean, the girlfriend wasn't even there at the time.

Well, look, David, he likes the pot. You know how the pot affects people. You know what I mean?

The pot. The pot. It makes you want to, you know, burn people down.

Right. Like, it's just, why? It's such an extreme response. There doesn't seem to be like a,

I mean, I don't. The motive's weak, right? Like, why would you, you get a breakup and then like

the three years before that, you're like superstar stepdad. Like, you're going to take it out on the

kids. Like the one-year-old, you're going to kill the one-year-old because your ex broke up,

broke up with you. And they're not as biological kids either, but he had just, you know,

he, he assumed the father role and he, by all accounts, did a really good job.

Yeah. Um, okay. And who testified next?

The next like important witness was Scott Carroll, you know, the firefighter, the first, um, expert,

the guy who had came that night and done the, done the arson investigation.

How was his hair?

He was bald.

So, oh, this is not the salt and pepper detective.

No, no, no. Handsome salt and pepper detective is later.

No, no, no, no. That's why we got to get our players straight according to their hair.

I mean, but he was like a firefighter. He was another like tall guy in good shape that like,

like seemed like a decent human being. Um, he shows up to court with his, his arson investigation

book, which I'm like, oh, I, you know, this is, this is a funny moment in trial because this is one

of the rulings that goes my way because I, I, I have, you know, my Richardson motion has been denied.

I've had no chance to prep on these experts, but he came in with this book and I was like,

I told the prosecutor, I was like, I want to take a look at his book while he's testifying on direct.

And she's like, yeah, no problem. So she goes out and she comes back in. She's like, there is a

problem. He doesn't want to give you the book. And I'm like, why doesn't he want to give me the book?

He's like, he's being very protective of it. And I'm like, why won't he give me the book? I'm bringing

this up to the judge. So I go to rock judge and I'm like, he won't give me his book. They didn't

tell me that he was an expert. I just wanted a minimum, take a look at his book. And the judge

is like, why won't he look at he, why won't he share his book? And the state didn't have a good

answer. He's like, I'm ordering him to give him his book. So then direct, I'm looking at me and my

trial partner are looking at this arson investigation book, which actually was super helpful for the

case. Like it was another nice, nice cut in our favor. Can you tell us about the cross then? Like,

did you find something before the cross or how just, how'd this all play together?

So I prepped my cross and, um, it was pretty clear early on. He didn't know anything about

fire investigation. So I, I, I, what? This expert fire rescue guy, been a fire officer for 20

something years with the book, with the book, right? With the book. Was there creases in the

pages at least? No, it was a clean, it was a, it was a, it was a clean copy. Clean, sealed. I

don't know if there was a, there was even like a little like wrinkle in the spine. That was a nice

book. That might've been a new Amazon. It would've been nice if Pat would've said, you know what?

I'd like to mark the book as defense exhibit A. The judge let me hold his book and he's like,

but you're not allowed to write on it. And I was like, I won't write on it judge. No tabs,

nothing. Okay. So I'm crossing him and I'm crushing him and I'm like, you know, uh, and I, I get to

the point where I'm like, I'm like, I start talking about like fire and I'm like, all right, let's talk

about like temperatures. Like, you know, uh, paper burns at 451 degrees Fahrenheit, 451. I was like,

that's really hot. He's like, yeah. I'm like gasoline burns at, I can't remember now if it's

like 1100 and 1200 degrees. I was like, that is significantly more hotter, almost three times

more hotter. He's like, yes. And I'm like, if you get in close, you would never want to be in close

proximity to a gasoline fire. He's like, no. I'm like, if any of your limbs or appendages were near

a gasoline fire, it would cause significant burns. He's like, no. And I'm like, would you ever start a

gasoline fire by bending down at your waist and lighting it with a lighter one inch off? He's

like, I would never light a gasoline fire. I'm like, I get it. But would you do it that way?

And he's like, no. I'm like, if you had to do it, he's like, I would never do it. I was like,

gun to your head. You have to start a gasoline fire. How do you do it? And he's like, the judge

is entertained at this point. So when he's entertained, I'm going to get, I get, I get my leeway. So the

judge is like, and I'm like, he's like, I would take a match and throw it in it. I was like,

God, cause you don't want to burn your hands. Right. And he's like, yes. And I, I go through

like an example with like a propane grill, which I talked about earlier where I'm like,

I'm like, it's the fumes that burn. And that's allowed, it allows for, you know, the fire to jump

from one puddle to the puddle. He's like, no. And I'm like, not like a propane grill. And he's like,

I don't know about propane grills. I'm like, how old are you? And he's like, I can't remember how old

he is. I'm like, you don't have a propane grill at your house. And he's like, I have a propane grill

at my house. I was like, you don't know how it works. And he's like, he's like, I know how it

works. I'm like, yeah, the flame jumps. Right. And he's like, yes. And I'm like, right. Like the

gasoline. Right. And he's like, yes. And I'm like, ha, like, like just absolute control. So I'm about

to wrap things up. And my trial partner is like throwing up the, like the signal, the signal. She

finds this section in the book where it's like, it's like a walkthrough on how to do arson

investigation. And one step is rule out any appliance malfunctions. And it goes through them. And it's

like, I know it's like washer, dryer, pilot light, something else. Or excuse me, hot water

heater. So I'm like, and did you check the hot water heater? He's like, no. I'm like, do you

know if it has a pilot light? He's like, no. I show him the photograph. I'm like, it has

a pilot light. He's like, I'm not sure what a pilot light is. I'm like, you're a fire, been

a fire rescue officer for 20 something years. You don't know what a pilot light is. And he's

like, no. I'm like, but you're a homeowner, right? He's like, yes. I'm like, you don't

have a hot water heater in your house. And he's like, he's like, I do. I'm like, is it

tankless? He's like, no. I'm like, so you know what a pilot light is? And he's like, he's

like, yeah. I'm like, you didn't check it, right? And he's like, no. And I'm like, even

though you were supposed to. And he's like, he's like, I don't know about appliances. And

then there's another section of the book that my, my trial partner found where it's like,

if you don't know about these appliances, you find someone who does for your investigation.

And at this point, please tell me that you're taking this book and approaching him and showing

him, this is your book. Do you ever read this book? It's in the book.

Yeah. So I impeach him with the book and I'm like, and just to be clear, sir, this isn't

my book, right? He's like, no, it's my book. I'm like, yes, you brought it to court. And

he's like, he's like, he's like, I did it. I'm like, it's right in here. And he's like,

yes. And it was like, like we, we, we take a break afterwards. Um, and I'm in the side

room with my trial partner and she's like, like walk in, she's already in there and she's

like, ah, and I'm like, yes. I'm like, cause now we're like, we're like drinking the Kool-Aid.

We're like, ah, we just crushed this guy. And the jurors are, by the way, too, they're doing

the ping pong where they're like looking at me smiling and looking back at me smiling judges

on the bench, like leaned in, like, like, like, all right, this is getting good.

Sounds like now we're cooking with gas. That's what we said in the rehearsal.

But yeah, so that's the first fire expert and he, he does all that and they bring on the

second fire expert, the second fire rescue officer who took photos of Mr. Brooks at, at

the hospital and took photos of his, his shins and hands and all this stuff. And we get the

photos in there's no burns. So I'm like, step down, sir. And I'm like, take these photographs

with you, show them to the jury. So he's holding them up like this with the no burns. And I'm like,

there's no burns on his hand. Right. And he's like, there's this one. I'm like that really small

one, but it's nowhere else. Right. And I'm like, and there's hair on his knuckles and there's hair

on, on the front of his hands. And I'm like, this is the man that they claim started these fires.

Right. And he's like, yeah. And I'm like, I'm like, okay. And that was, it was a shorter cross,

but like at this point we had like lined up from the first guy and the second guy, first expert that

if you lit a fire that way, you would burn the heck out of your hands. And then the second expert

comes on and says, there's no burns. Why, wait, why was there a second expert? What was the purpose

of the second expert? I don't know. He said a bunch of nonsense that I, I largely ignored about like,

oh, this burn in this way is indicative of, of doing this and pouring this. And like, I, I largely

ignored the, the fire hoodoo or the arson hoodoo, because we had stuff that, you know, just made no

sense in reality. So he was trying to say that his, that, that the client's burns are arson burns.

Yeah. Arson burns, which, okay. And, and, and, you know, it's like that just fire burns,

but fire that was started maliciously because that's what arson, right? Malicious arson burns.

Right. Yeah. But not on his hands, even though it was lit an inch off the ground with a big

lighter six times. So the second guy you got, you were able to show the photos and how there was no

hand injuries and he was done. Okay. He was cooked, right? He was cooked. Barbecued.

Their case is toast. Actually, you know what? I thought I think about with the propane, uh,

gas grill, I have a three, there's three things, but there's only one ignition, only one ignites.

And then the flame does jump to the other parts of the grill. It all, everything else has gas,

but there's one, only one has the ignition. One ignition source. And that flame jumps because

it's the, it's the fumes, right? It's not the, not the, not anything else. Yeah. How was your

client? He's the client's pumped. The client's beyond pumped. He's like, everything is going

as planned. Why didn't this happen four years ago? How did your client react during the cross

of the, uh, the first expert with the book when everybody was kind of like you were saying,

ping ponging back and forth, watching the, the sparks fly? Yellow sticky note. Nice job.

Two explanation points and a smiley face. Oh, solid. I was like, I was like, and he's, and also

like the, like the big guy nod, like, like, yes. And then the judge, you said he said he's having a

good time at this point too, right? Yeah. I tried a nutty case in front of him before. So he liked me

because we got in a huge fight in that case. I can't remember what for, but it was like, I guess

I got respect out of it. But so earlier on in the trial, I said like one of the witnesses said the

fire was this high. And I was like, so that's head height, right? And the judge is like six two and

I'm like five nine. And the judge like interrupts me and he's like, well, head height for you. And I'm

like, thanks judge. I was like, thanks. And I was like, yes. Head height for me. And the witness is

like, yeah, but you know, it helps when the judge on a really serious case is making a dumb joke in

front of the jury with you. So that's, I mean, that's great though. The judge is like, yeah,

interrupting the whole serious life without the possibility of Billy parole case, multiple attempted

murders against children trial, just so he could make a height joke. Yep. Make fun of me for being

short or shorter. Okay. What happens next in the prosecution's case? Straight down from Ocala,

Florida detectives, Tim Smith, the arson investigator, his last case of his 30 year career, Mr. Salt and

Pepper, Mr. Salt and Pepper. And I was right too. He was like six, four. I was like this six,

four. Good shape. He's like exactly who I would like play as like a credible detective in a movie.

And what did he testify to? So he testified about when he arrived, which was later on that night and

he went to the house and he saw crocodile skin and burn trails and poor trails and all kinds of stuff

that shows that it's arson, you know, more arson hoodoo. And then he testified about how he responded

to the hospital afterwards when Mr. Brooks was there and got taken into custody and it was him

and it was the nice cop. Oh, circle back. Nice cop did say one important thing, which was he said he

didn't hear Mr. Brooks say anything or confess to anything at the hospital. Wait, I'm sorry. I think

I'm, I think I'm getting my, my cops here mixed up here. Are we talking about two, two cops right now,

right? So we got school teacher and salt and pepper. School teacher is not tied into the case other

than taking Mr. Brooks into custody and taking him to the hospital. He was in the room when

salt and pepper claims to have got the confession. Okay. Okay. So, but who testified first? It was

the school teacher. He said, he said, I didn't hear anything. Okay. So the prosecutor asked him the

question about the statement then. Yeah. He's like, I didn't hear anything, but they're like,

were you close to him? He's like, well, I was on the other side of the room, which, you know,

it's a hospital room. That's like dumb. Okay. So salt and pepper testifies and tell us about that.

I mean, he's super credible on, on direct. He's clearly testified in a bunch of cases.

He's charming. He, um, he has an excuse for the, for the, and I could like a, not a bad excuse if

you don't know how to beat him up on it, where he, he does like the, ah, shucks. I just left my

recorder at the office. I went straight from my house and Davey or whatever, another horse area in

Florida and drove down to Homestead to, to interview Mr. Brooks. Um, so he, he talks about all the

arson hoodoo and how he got this Mr. Brooks, when he was talking to him about this and questioning him

about this, he started crying. And when he asked him, well, your stepdaughter, I won't say her name,

said that you started the fire and you said, we're all going to die together. Would she lie? And he

starts crying. He's like, she wouldn't lie. You know, I did it. Like that was the confession,

not written down, not recorded. Other guy in the room didn't hear it apparently.

So then how'd you cross him on that?

So, and I've been dealing with this for a long time. Cause it's like cat and mouse,

right? With like cops in your area and crosses, at least the savvy ones, because they, they pick up

what you're doing on cross and they try to figure out what to say or do next time to avoid it. So

I do the typical cross where it's like, all right, you claim that the statement happened. This is a

critical statement in this case. It's the confession to a very serious crime. It's the last crime of

your career. You know, you don't want to end your career on a low note. You know, you want to make

sure that you serve justice to this family. So that this confession, right? You recorded it,

your audio, your video recorded it, right? And he's like, no. And I'm like, your audio recorded it,

right? He's like, no, I told you I left the tape recorder at the office. I was like, so before you

go to talk to the guy who allegedly tried to burn down the house with his stepkids inside,

you decided, Hey, I'm not going to swing by the office. I'm just going to drive straight to the

hospital without my recorder. Maybe he said, I don't know if it was charged. I'm like, Oh, okay. So it

wasn't charged. I was like, why didn't you use your cell phone? And he's, and I know what they're

going to say. Cause they say this every time they're like, I can't use my cell phone. Cause if I use

my cell phone, they're going to impound it and it's going to be part of the case file and they're

going to have access to all my stuff. And I've been dealing with that in like drug cases. So I was

like, sir, you and I both know that's not true. Right. And he's like, what do you mean? I'm like,

you could have got a protective order for your cell phone. And he's like, he's like, I never heard of

a protective order for a cell phone. I'm like, you're telling me in your 30 year career, you've never

heard of a protective order. I was like, he's never, I was like, I've heard of a protective

order, but not a cell phone. I'm like, and you didn't get one in this case. And he's then I shift

and I'm like, well, I'll, let me tell you what you did have at the hospital. Right. You had a pen

and paper. I'm like, and did you have him write it down? He's like, no. And you know, at that point

ignored all the hoodoo and his credibility was torn up. Cause that's, that's ridiculous. Right. You

don't record the most important statement on the last case of your career in a serious case.

Yeah. Media case, no less. You were talking about how it was on TV and everything. Come on now.

Yeah. Come on now. Salt and pepper. Did you feel like that was resonating with the jurors at that

moment? Oh yeah. Cause you do the right, like on the, on the big point. Um, and they say something

dumb. You do like the long pause and then you look over at the jury and you're like, okay. And then let

me ask you that. Like when I said, okay, the jurors are like, I get like a nod from one of them and I'm

like, this is scary cause this might be working. So then now, okay, almost, but before we get to the

defense case, now it's time for a motion to dismiss. And I thought I had a good one too, because, um,

there was no evidence that he knew that all five kids were in the house. He knew one would have been

there cause it was on the couch and he would have known one light most favorable to the state

because she came in and allegedly saw it, but there's three other kids sleeping and there was

no evidence that he went into any of those rooms. So like you can't intend to kill five people if you

don't know five people are there. So I had a J away for three counts of attempted murder and then three

counts of child abuse, which was promptly denied. Well, but he knows they exist, right? And that's where

they live. Sure. But I figured, yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's properly denied, but I, I thought

you'd have to at least provide some evidence to show that he knew they were there. You're, you're on a

high. You, you destroyed the prosecution's case, you know, judge had to take me back down. They take

you back down to reality a little, little bit there. Uh, okay. So time for the defense and who's

going to testify, Mr. Brooks. All right. Mr. Brooks. So Mr. Brooks, when I went to see him shortly before

trial, had like a stack of paper he had been working on for years. And he's like, these are all things I

need you to ask about. And he's like, you got to understand the reason why they set me up for this

is because they knew they were on federal, I was on federal probation. So you got to bring that out.

And I was like, I will absolutely not bring that out. I will never bring that out. And you will not say

that. If you say that, I will walk out of the room during the trial. And he's like, he's like,

he's like, why not? I'm like, it's terrible. Why would you let them know you were on federal

probation? That sounds very scary. I think we should start my questioning off with let them

know I'm on probation. At that side, we want to start it off. Good start. Let them know I've been

to prison a lot. Make sure they know that. All of the times. And I've never started to fire in prison.

Oh my gosh. So he had, he, and to his credit, he had a lot of

other points. Like he had all the good stuff he did for the kids, which I used during their crosses.

But that was not a good plan. So what I was like, look, give this all to me. I'll come back in a

week. I'm going to tell you what I'm going to ask. I'm going to give you a copy of it. This is like

10 days out when I come back. And this is what I want you to look at. And I was like, let's prepare

too. Cause I don't want you to be nervous the first time you're testifying. So we'll like prepare.

So we were preparing during breaks. Like they'd let me back into the holding cell and I'd prepare

with him. And we got to a point in maybe like a day before his testimony where he was like, he's

like, I don't need this anymore. I'm ready. And I was like, okay, hope so. And he was doing good.

So we put him on. He testifies. He talks about the whoosh of the gasoline. He explains how he put it

out with a blanket. And we had asked the other witnesses before, how was the fire put out? And

no one could give an answer. We talked about the meeting with his ex beforehand. We talked about

his love for the stepkids and how he would never do anything like that. And he's like, when it's like,

what about the statement? Does detective claims you said he heard that? He's like, yes. He's like,

that's just foolishness. Like I never said that. Great. I thought it was foolishness was a great

line for it. To say that's foolishness, you have to be confident, right? You say like a confident

person says that's foolishness, right? Correct. He sounded confident in saying that was foolishness.

So he killed it. Like no, no complaints. Okay. So tell us about the prosecution's cross

examination of your client. Yeah. So before cross, they pull out this stay away order that

they claim was turned over, but of course I don't have a copy of, you know, maybe it was turned over

five years. I'd never seen it before. So at the time of this incident, there was a stay away order

active where he wasn't supposed to be at the house. And then the other thing they wanted to bring out

was the house was a section eight house and him as a felon. Cause I brought up the fact he was a

two time convicted felon before they did. I think I said it was cause of selling pot and, uh, or

trafficking in pot. And, um, they wanted to bring out the fact that it was a section eight house

because he's not allowed to stay there. If he's a convicted felon. Okay. So the prosecutor wants to

bring out the, the protective order or go ahead, start, go ahead, continue.

He wants to bring out this injunction, which is obviously another wrong, an uncharged crime,

like violent injunction, all kinds of it's float federally. It's what? 404 Florida is 90.404 B,

um, all kinds of stuff they can't do without at least giving notice. And of course, rock judge is

like, yeah, they can bring it in. It's for impeachment. I'm like impeachment of what? We never brought that

up. Yeah. Impeach what, what does that prove? Like, yeah, it's not like he's saying that, you know,

she, that he wasn't allowed to be there. Wait, he, wait, he's saying he's allowed to be there.

That's why he had a key and it was, he had permission to go in the home. And so maybe the

prosecution's probably like, did you really have permission to go to home? What about this

protective order right here? Maybe that's the justification for it. Yeah, I guess, I guess

so. But it's also, it's an uncharged wrong that you got to at least give notice about in Florida.

So I was pretty pissed off about that because the case had been going really well. And now they're

going to bring up the fact that he had a DV incident essentially. And now we're fighting

over that. And I'm like, they're like, well, we're not going to bring up any of that. We're

just going to say there was a protective order for a domestic case. And I'm like, that doesn't

make any difference. And then I'm like, if you're going to bring it up, I'm going to talk all about

the domestic case. I'm going to have them explain everything. And they were like, then they tried

to keep me from being able to explain everything with the client. And to the judge's credit, he's

like, no, no, no, you bring it in. He can talk all about it. So then, or so then how'd that play

out with the testimony? So he hit another home run. They're like, they're like, what about this

injunction? He's like, I didn't know there was an injunction in place. And she's like, you didn't

know there was an injunction after the domestic incident? I was like, he's like, and he's so polite

to the pregnant prosecutor. Like at one point she's like, like leaning over, holding her belly. He's

like, ma'am, are you okay? And we had primed him on that too. I was like, you got to be the biggest

gentleman with this woman. And he asked her if she's okay. And that infuriated her obviously. Right.

But she, um, I know she's like, she's like, you didn't know about this injunction. You're claiming

that this injunction, she's like holding it up. Isn't real. And he's like, no, ma'am, it is clearly

real. I had no idea it existed. And he's like, she's like, you, you're claiming you had no idea

it existed. And he's like, ma'am, she bonded me out of jail. She picked me up from jail,

which is probably true. But that was, you know, he's, he killed it. He, um, he's like, yeah,

I was section eight, but we had talked to the mayor and the mayor was okay with me staying there.

So he does really well on cross. Um, we get on direct and I just go through everything about

the DV incident. And it's like, who called 911 on you? And he's like, my ex. And I'm like,

who bonded you out of jail? My ex. He's like, who went to the prosecutor to get the case dropped?

My ex. And like, the ex is already like in Georgia or whatever. She's left for the trial.

Um, and he's like, did you have, like, we go through all that and he's like, would you have

ever, and we ended up like something like, would you ever have done anything to hurt these kids?

He's like, no, I still love them. And it came off as, came off. I think it's, it was, it's probably

true. It's definitely true. Sincere. Yeah, it was sincere. So that was, that was, uh, uh, redirect.

So we go to close it. Jury instructions and closing. Jury instructions was kind of funny.

Or what was funny about that? So the prosecutor and we get along, she turns to me at the end of

that, him testifying. Cause he's testified like all day. And she's like, I'm not writing jury

instructions. I'm like, all right, I'll write them. And in my head, I'm like, I've been waiting for

this. Like I've never, I never get to write the jury instructions. Like I'll write them. And she's

like, okay, you write them. I'll agree to them. So I put like every single like possible, like

permissible instruction, but not required. I take the verdict forms and I change them. So not guilty

at the top for every, every count. Always. Always. Gotta do that. That's a automatic. Come

on. Yeah. I, you know, it's only been granted once, but it, um, I, I had an opportunity, so

I did it. So we meet at like 7am the next day and the judge brings in Pastelitos. Um, and

we're going over jury instructions and he's a smart guy. He's looking at him and he's, and

he's also formatting them because this judge is also like the format wizard. It's like every

order and every jury instruction he has is, it's like gorgeous. It's like the most beautiful,

beautiful document. So he's looking at them though. And he's like, you agree to these to

the state? And they had seen them. And she's like, yeah. And he's like, okay. They're just

formatting them on his computer and we're drinking coffee and eating Pastelitos before closing.

Was there ever a moment when you guys are going over this informally where she's kind of realizing

what you've done and it says, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Hold on. I actually, I don't want that

one. Take it out. Take it out. Nope. Well, kind of. She, she's recognizing what I did and she's looking

over at me like, you fucking asshole. And, but she's also like, like over it. And she's like,

whatever. But like, but like, like, cause we did have a good relationship and, and she, um,

she, but she's looking at me like, you fucking asshole. Like I, I put you in charge of one

thing, you damn defense lawyer. And you just screw it up. It wasn't like, do the instructions how I want

you to do them. You're going to do them. You're going to do them how you want to do them.

She, she didn't tell me that. And then she also knew me well enough that I'm going to cause a

problem given an opportunity. Look, you have, you're, you have a duty to your client to do the best to do

everything you can for him, especially when he's spacing life without the possibility of parole. So

you're gonna do everything you can. All right. So let's talk about closing, closing arguments. How did

that go? So my trial partner closed. Um, first the state did their first close and it's like a

very, like, it was the, her trial partner, the, it was a very like technical close where it's like,

you know, brings up the first statement again and like walks through all the witnesses and what they

said. And then like, I'm going to talk to you about the law and attempted homicide requires what

three elements or whatever, and goes through those. And arson requires two elements and burglary

battery cause requires however many elements. So it's like a very, like, not a very sexy closing,

like a very like technical, here's all the law, here's what all the witnesses said. And they do

that a lot in Miami where they tee it up for the, the rebuttal close where they, they say a bunch of

more stuff, more stuff. Fence closing was awesome. It was very hot. Um, the, um, she, my, yeah, my trial

partner was out there spitting fire. She, no, it, it was really good. Um, she's like hitting all the

points and she brings up what I remember is like, she brings up like how ridiculous it is that he

would have lit six fires like this and not have a burn on anywhere on his hands, except this one spot,

which is perfectly consistent with carrying a judge. That's a jug that's leaking gas. And one little

drop gets on your hand. Um, you know how the big lighters got no scorches on it. How, you know,

a 30 year veteran detective doesn't know to like bring the tape recorder or have them write it down.

How, yeah, this happened. Like a grown man was crying in a hospital room and the other cop school

teacher was there. And he's like, I didn't hear any of that. Like, like a grown man crying is like

one of the most uncomfortable things. This is what she's saying that another man can experience in

their life. And he's saying he doesn't remember that at all. That's ridiculous. Um, she, the pizza,

which was really funny, but she was like, it's also, you know, as a mom, let me tell you, it makes

no sense that you would bring one medium little Caesar's pizza home for your five kids at 10 30 at

night. Let me tell you what that pizza was for. She knew Mr. Brooks was coming home. That pizza was

for her and Mr. Brooks. And when she got home, instead of seeing Mr. Brooks, she saw her house with

smoke all around it. I thought that was awesome because that made a lot more sense than one medium

pizza, one medium, one topping pizza for six people. The, that closing was great. Um, but she's just,

she's an awesome, awesome trial lawyer. It went off really well. And then the rebuttal close,

I was a little more fiery. It was from the pregnant prosecutor, but it wasn't like anything inflammatory or,

you know, like the real, the real awful, like objectionable. Uh, there was one part actually

that maybe was like, not great, which is like, he's saying that everyone else is lying. You know,

he's the one who's lying, which is a big no, no in Florida. You can't call the defendant a liar in

closing as the prosecutor. You were, uh, you were able to watch the jury during the closing because

your trial partner was doing it. Were you noticing if they were kind of, you know, nodding along or

were they, were you getting any kind of reaction from the jurors during defense? Pretty, pretty stoic,

pretty stoic. So there wasn't like, like, you know, like the, or not like that good, but like

something that you're like, Oh, this is going well. But it was funny because her husband, who I know,

my trial partner's husband, who's like a, a real estate attorney, um, is watching. And after her

closing, he's like, you killed it. Not guilty all the way. And I'm like, I'm like, Oh God, don't say

that. Don't say that. Tell us about jury deliberations. So the jury gets pizza more than one

box, uh, which is also great too. Right. And then, um, cause there's only, only six of them at this

point. I know, I know there's only six jurors. Yeah. Florida for now we're fighting it, but

in Florida, you only get six jurors, um, because of this dumb, uh, legislation that came out in like

the seven seventies and then was upheld by the United States Supreme court, Florida versus Williams.

All right. So, so you got four pizzas for six jurors. I like that. Yep. I like that a lot. Um,

and they're out for about 45 minutes and clients like, I don't know, all time high. And I'm like,

I've, I've, I've seen this song and dance before. That's not a good amount of time for this type of

case. And they come back in and they quit, quit them on every single charge. Wow. So they just

not guilty and not like, did you like the first, the first charge was not guilty. Did you think,

okay, if the first one's not guilty, that means the next three or four are not guilty. Or did you have

like some sort of like psychology sort of map roadmap there? I thought if it was going to be all or

nothing, but my concern was that let's say he gets acquitted on the first five attempted homicides and

then the arson, and then it's convicted on the burglary battery and still gets mandatory life.

That's kind of like the operation successful, but the patient died. Like that would have really,

really sucked the wind out of me. If I count seven was, was a, a life conviction.

Especially because in a lot of these types of cases was with super serious, you know, facts,

a lot of times jurors want to like split the baby, you know, they just want to give them something. So

yeah, I can see that being a huge concern.

Like maybe the jurors could be like, well, maybe he didn't intend to kill them. So we'll just say not

guilty on the attempted murders, but he definitely broke into that house and started a fire. So

we'll say guilty on the burglary with the intent to commit arson. Uh, how'd your client react?

He did the, like, like the two hands going in the fist, like the, like that, that motion,

like just above the table and like looked over at both of us and, um, like nodded. Like he

was, he was completely vindicated. And I'll tell you after I had my doubts, the whole case,

but after he testified, I was like, I think, I think this guy didn't do this. I think he's

telling the truth, which made it more scary. Okay. Great. Great story. Um, that's a, that's a cool,

that's a cool way how you kind of like just sort of, you know, just did a little, little Google

search, talk to an uncle, got some information from outside sources that all of a sudden just led to,

uh, the development of the defense. I love it. I love it. This is a great story. So thanks for

coming on the show today. That was great. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Great job, Pat. That

was a hell of a case. Um, all right. We're at the end of the show here. So I'm going to ask you,

uh, what I ask all our guests, uh, you were, you're a defense attorney, a public defender for

about six years or so. So, uh, why'd you want to become a public defender? So I interned for a judge

in criminal court in law school who used to be a big time defense lawyer in Miami. And he came up in

like the eighties during the cocaine cowboy days, you know, where you got the brown paper bag full of

hundred dollar bills as a private defense lawyer. Um, and I watched maybe five trials during that

summer. All but one were PD trials and all the PDs were just awesome. Like they were just kicking

their butts. They were, they were, they, they won this like trafficking case on video where like the

guy was in the room, but they were like, Oh, it was his brother. Who's the trafficker? Not him. Um,

he like brought the duffel bag with the money. They won like a bunch of other cases. And I, um,

I was like, I need to go work for this office because like, this is amazing. Um, and I interned for them

and just like fell in love with indigent criminal defense. And the fact that you can run into guys

that it's mostly guys who have these like mile long rap sheets. They've just been taking pleas their

whole life, their whole life, their whole life. And you're like, nah, that, that ends today. We're

going to try this case. And he tried and win and like, just watching like the perspective change.

And they realized that like, yeah, this is a fucked up system, but you know, with the right,

the right people and the right, the right effort, you can, you can make it work. Yeah. That's awesome.

Great. Great. Well, glad to have you on the show. Thanks for being a fan. Thanks for reaching out.

And Anya, as always, all-time favorite guest, guest host, favorite guest too of Another Not Guilty.

Thanks for spending an afternoon with us. Thanks for the invite. Glad to be back.

All right, guys. Until next time. See you around. All right. Go get them, Justice.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Another Not Guilty. Shout out to Daniel Mark,

original A&G theme music composer, and Mike Grimm for the remix. And guess what?

We'll be back in two weeks with Another Not Guilty straight from the trenches.